| --- Log opened Mon Mar 06 00:00:52 2017 |
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| 00:12 | | * McMartin is on a roll. https://bumbershootsoft.wordpress.com/2017/03/06/zx81-on-to-machine-code/ |
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| 02:33 | | * McMartin isn't sure this is worth an article, but it's dumb and hilarious. |
| 02:33 | | * McMartin attempt to create a line of line number 10000, gets a syntax error |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | GOTO 10000 however is NOT a syntax error |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | So I made a line 9999 which was fine |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | And then incremented the line number in place |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | It's now listing a line number A000. |
| 02:35 | <@Reiv> | Well that sure makes sense |
| 02:35 | < Vornotron> | Quite |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | It will accept values all the way up to 16383 before deciding that it must not actually be a line of BASIC code |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | That appears as line G383 |
| 02:36 | < Vornotron> | ...wat |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | This system is not using ASCII or anything like it, so, fun fact, ord('A') = ord('9') + 1 |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | I'm sure the thousands digit is just the result of doing a straight "divide by 1,000, add ord('0') to quotient" thing. |
| 02:37 | <&McMartin> | Note that the "383" part comes out just fine there! |
| 02:41 | < Vornotron> | ah of course |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | So yeah, that one? Actually checks out. |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | I do not insist that a program continue to behave perfectly when I forcibly violate its invariants. =P |
| 02:44 | < Vornotron> | does goto 10000 execute line a000? |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | It does. |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | In fact, come to think of it |
| 02:44 | | * McMartin goes check something |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | In fact, GOTO 10000 is a reasonable command even given the invariant re: 9999 being the highest line number. |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | One odd quirk of this BASIC is that ending the program with a STOP statement vs ending it by running off the end of the program is different |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | It's reported differently to the user and the user can react differently to them. |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | In particular, you can CONTinue past a STOP statement, but not past the end of the program |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | And only going past the end of the program is reported as condition code "OK" |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | (The other is, unsurprisingly, "STOP statement reached") |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | GOTO (any number past the last line in your program) is therefore "exit program permanently, with success" |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | So with 10000, that stays "success" even if you're using line 9999. |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | Better still, it actually says "program completed with success *at line <line with the GOTO in it>*", which is to say, it doesn't lose information either. |
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| 10:26 | | * LadyOfLight cheers |
| 10:27 | < LadyOfLight> | We are introducing mandatory code reviews for low level engine changes |
| 10:28 | <@TheWatcher> | \o/ |
| 10:28 | < Vornotron> | \o/ |
| 10:29 | <@sshine> | o/ hail code revies! |
| 10:29 | <@sshine> | reviews* |
| 10:30 | <@TheWatcher> | LadyOfLight: using gerrit or something? |
| 10:31 | <@TheWatcher> | On reflection, you're probably not allowed to tell me, so feel free to ignore that. |
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| 11:10 | <@abudhabi> | First day on the job. |
| 11:10 | <@abudhabi> | Attended a meeting, now they're trying to figure out how to get us through all the security hoops. |
| 11:11 | <@abudhabi> | And give us devtools. |
| 11:32 | < LadyOfLight`> | Today: really wishing C++ had static if instead of relying on an out of band hack (SFINAE) |
| 11:55 | < Vornotron> | sfinae? |
| 11:57 | <&[R]> | 3https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitution_failure_is_not_an_error |
| 11:57 | <&[R]> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitution_failure_is_not_an_error |
| 11:59 | < Vornotron> | aha. |
| 12:07 | < LadyOfLight`> | "if you want this ignored, make it have a type it can't instantiate" |
| 12:07 | | LadyOfLight` is now known as LadyOfLight |
| 12:17 | <@abudhabi> | OK, I think we're done. Only about half a day used for admin! |
| 12:23 | <@TheWatcher> | That's pretty good |
| 12:43 | < LadyOfLight> | 14.7.3.7 |
| 12:44 | <@abudhabi> | Now it seems we'll use the other half of the day to find out where we can download a working spring batch template project to start from. |
| 12:45 | <@abudhabi> | Because we've been given a task that's more suited to bash/perl/python to do in Java, and not just Java, but some newfangled enterprise framework. |
| 12:46 | <@abudhabi> | I could have this bloody thing half-done by now if I'd been told to do it however I pleased. |
| 12:46 | <@abudhabi> | Damn corporate/govt work. |
| 12:48 | <@abudhabi> | The job is literally "take these files in the weird format, and convert them to json". |
| 12:49 | <@TheWatcher> | ... ahahaha |
| 12:49 | <@TheWatcher> | I suggest fire |
| 14:19 | <&jerith> | abudhabi: It's possible they'll want to keep that code around for later use or something. |
| 14:19 | <&jerith> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywWBy6J5gz8 |
| 14:41 | <@abudhabi> | I'm not saying it's not useful for them. |
| 14:41 | <@abudhabi> | I'm just saying there's a stupendous amount of overhead. |
| 14:42 | <@abudhabi> | The batch framework requires database access. |
| 14:42 | <@abudhabi> | Not to do any particular task, but to keep track of execution steps and jobs. |
| 14:46 | | hrwgiu [oihdsg@Nightstar-quc.q2p.209.156.IP] has joined #code |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | 9 11 attacks, Did USA do it itself or it just let it happen? |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | Did USA administration murder 3000 American citizen in 9 11 attacks to justify starting a war against iraq? |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | If al-qaeda did it, why go to kill 2 million Iraqi? |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | http://creatvchaos.blogspot.com.eg/ |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | https://creatvchaos.wordpress.com/ |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | Some of the benefits Americans say they achieved after 9 11 attacks include: |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | *constant flow of oil, which price is in continuous decline. Trump said he will simply take the Iraqi oil, and when he was told that Iraqi oil belongs to iraq he said there is no iraq(after usa destroyed it ). |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | *Invasion of afghanstan with construction of not less than 14 american military base which give a close eye on china. |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | *Removal of potential threat to isreal represented in iraq which throw isreal with more than 30 rocket after American assault on iraq during 2nd gulf war. |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | So oil was the motive of the crimeâ¦. |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | Did Usa ambassador at iraq implicitly encourage Saddam Hussien to invade kwuit? |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | Usa used al-qaeda against soviet union. Did Usa continue to use it against others in the world, did usa use al-qaeda against moderate muslims? |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | Did Usa use al-qaeda against its own American citizens? not in 9 11 , which is technically impossible for al-qaeda to do it even with help from Usa administration. |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | Could al-qaeda personel who received few weeks of aviation lessons in Usa and most of them never did fly single engine aircraft alone, can target the towers with a big high sophisticated boeing airplane ? |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | If al-qaeda did it ,and that is far from possible , why go to kill 2 million Iraqi? |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | Usa declared its intent to start creative chaos in the middle east âwhich we saw as wars and violence involving most countries of the middle eastâ , in order to start all these wars usa needed a big event to use it a as a cause to start these wars and violence . They simply needed something as big as 9 11 attacks |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | Did usa train and supply isis with weapons like it with al-qeada to play a major role in creating chaos in the middle east? |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | Saddam Hussien who lost most of his power in 2nd gulf war and further by siege âin oil for food program which deprived Iraq even from pencils for the kidâ , he did not allow al-Qaeda to enter Iraq , not even to support him against Usa. |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | But only after Usa occupation of Iraq, Isis started to appear in Iraq. Did Usa pave the way for al-Qaeda to Iraq to play a major role of creative chaos that still burning Iraq? |
| 14:46 | < hrwgiu> | Please publish my questions |
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| 14:47 | <&jerith> | abudhabi: There's something to be said for a standardised framework that runs this sort of job. |
| 14:50 | <&jerith> | Although it would be nice if that framework were low-overhead. |
| 15:32 | < LadyOfLight> | I think I've partially solved the 'but I don't want to eval every argument' problem |
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| 17:34 | <&jeroud> | LadyOfLight: Rewrite in Haskell?~ |
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| 17:35 | < LadyOfLight`> | jeroud: nah, it's better than Haskell |
| 17:35 | < LadyOfLight`> | :3 |
| 17:36 | <&jeroud> | OCaml? <3 <3 <3 |
| 17:36 | < LadyOfLight`> | Reduct ^^ |
| 17:36 | < LadyOfLight`> | Now if only it was specified well enough to have an implementation |
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| 17:38 | <&jeroud> | Current Rust status: I think I'll keep this library (ggez), even though I'll need to completely replace the font rendering code. |
| 17:39 | < LadyOfLight`> | The fact that there's a library called gg ez takes away a lot of the oomph from the whole Rust thing |
| 17:39 | < LadyOfLight`> | That's such an awful name for anything |
| 17:41 | <&jeroud> | Yeah, it's not a fantastic name. |
| 17:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Could be worse. |
| 17:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | The love2d library ecosystem has some spectacularly awful names. |
| 17:41 | <&jeroud> | But I once actually used a thing in production that was called "twitty-twister". |
| 17:41 | <@TheWatcher> | LadyOfLight`: As opposed to naming your programming language after a corroded form of metal that you generally want to avoid? |
| 17:42 | <&jeroud> | ToxicFrog: What a coincidence! ggez is a love2d clone. |
| 17:42 | < LadyOfLight`> | It screams BROS BROS BROS |
| 17:43 | < LadyOfLight`> | And that's not a community I want any part of |
| 17:45 | <&jeroud> | LadyOfLight`: The solution is *obviously* for you to help me write a Rust game engine that is awesome and has the best name.~ |
| 17:48 | <&jeroud> | (Of the three that I looked at, glium is very 3d, ggez is okayish, and Piston has by far the most phallic name.) |
| 17:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | I would rather use something called piston than something called ggez. |
| 17:52 | < Vornotron> | clearly, "stainless" |
| 17:58 | <&jeroud> | ToxicFrog: Yeah. On the surface, Piston is pretty complete and well architected. However, it has terrible APIs and inexcusably terrible event handling. |
| 18:01 | <&jeroud> | On the other hand, ggez looks like a one-person pet project that has frequent API changes and completely broken font rendering, but it otherwise pretty solid. |
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| 20:01 | <&McMartin> | What is Piston built on top of, anyway? |
| 20:02 | <&McMartin> | My past few non-asm projects I've reached for Rust and then said to myself "hey, but I don't want to have to leave DosBox" and then gone back to C :/ |
| 20:03 | <&McMartin> | Or perhaps back to C:\> |
| 20:09 | <@abudhabi> | I can't look at that and not think "depressed Arab smiley". |
| 20:14 | < Vornotron> | sikh clearly |
| 20:20 | <@abudhabi> | Heh. |
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| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | The slash-based smilies are "wry" not "depressed" in my lexicon |
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| 21:46 | <&jeroud> | McMartin: Multi-backend, defaulting to something called "glutin" which is apparently pure rust. |
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| 21:47 | <&jeroud> | Although it's not safe all the way down, because if I alt+tab away from the game window it segfaults. |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | Sigh |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | There have been stock solutions for this for like a decade |
| 21:55 | <&jeroud> | For not segfaulting when focus is lost? |
| 21:55 | <@Alek> | presumably |
| 21:56 | <&jeroud> | Anyway, Piston has reminded me of an important lesson I occasionally forget. |
| 21:57 | <&jeroud> | Even if a language or tool is carefully designed and competently executed, the stuff around it may still be garbage. |
| 21:58 | <@Alek> | maybe that's why it's called piston. :P |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | re: segfault: specifically: for noticing when the OS has yanked away your GPU resources to give to something else and then recapturing them. |
| 22:10 | | * Alek has noted that a game he plays has, on occassion, either minimized normally when switching to desktop, frozen for a bit before switching, or crashed. blames either successive updates to the graphics engine, successive updates to the nvidia drivers, windows, or some combination of the above. |
| 22:12 | <@Alek> | also, alt-tab usually doesn't work, except when it does. and sometimes coming back from minimizing to desktop makes the mouse input erratically jump between the game display and the desktop underneath. or jump to the secondary display. |
| 22:18 | | * TheWatcher bleeeghs at this code |
| 22:18 | <@gnolam> | Unless they've changed it in one of the later revisions, this is one case where OpenGL is actually higher level than DirectX, as it's up to the underlying driver to handle giving up and giving you back your GPU resources when switching out and back in. |
| 22:18 | <@TheWatcher> | This would be so much easier with a proper regex engine |
| 22:20 | <@Alek> | that might be it, gnolam, since the game runs on dX 9-11. |
| 22:20 | <&jeroud> | TheWatcher: The current context makes your assertion somewhat surreal.~ |
| 22:21 | <@Alek> | 9 is the default, but 10 and 11 are both selectable options in the launcher settings. |
| 22:21 | <@TheWatcher> | jeroud: >.> |
| 22:22 | <&McMartin> | Alek: This failure mode is particularly dire in DX9. |
| 22:22 | <&McMartin> | I think DX10 made it happen *less* if not full OpenGL "make it happen" |
| 22:22 | <@Alek> | good thing I run in 11. >_> |
| 22:22 | <&McMartin> | And even OpenGL I think had an annoying tendency to unload your textures if you were away for too long. |
| 22:23 | <@Alek> | I've run it on 10 once that was available, and then 11, so. hm. |
| 22:23 | <&McMartin> | Which game |
| 22:23 | <@Alek> | the game is gonna have its 4th anniversary this month I think. |
| 22:23 | <@Alek> | Warframe. |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | Ah yes |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | I never got crashes with it, tbh |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | But that was long long ago |
| 22:25 | <@Alek> | if you find that kind of game fun, I recommend coming back. it's had several serious overhauls. |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | I was very much "can take or leave it" |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | My friends who played moved on to the Marvel Heroes MMO |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | Which I have no real interest in |
| 22:25 | <@Alek> | the anniversary event should start about the 22nd. |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | I mostly retrogame, though there's some modern stuff that is clamoring for my attention |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | I'm playing Links Awakening right now, for a first completion |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | After that, what I play next will depend on how much more or less action I awnt in my games |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | If less, The Longest Journey, which I've also never played |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | If a bit more, Starward Rogue, because goddamn it there has to be *some* Arcen game I can enjoy |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | If a *lot* more, DOOM 2016. |
| 22:26 | <@Alek> | I miss my retro games but I find they're very tedious to try to play these days, due to a combination of factors. too-new hardware (especially displays) and software, lack of serious time to devote, stuff like that. |
| 22:27 | | * LadyOfLight waves the Horizon flag like the consumer whore that she is |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | I'm playing Link's Awakening on a GBA SP. =P |
| 22:27 | | * Alek has never had a handheld until his smartphone. >_> |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | I have yet to be really compelled by a smartphone game |
| 22:28 | <@Alek> | and that, I mostly have a few games that take a few minutes at a time, or a lot of reading. |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | Due props to both Blek and Duet though. |
| 22:28 | <@Alek> | I tried watching tv on it but uh... too small, even as a phablet. needs a Gear-like thing for proper viewing. :P |
| 22:29 | <@Alek> | casting works, tho. |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | That took me too long to parse |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | I was thinking casting as in "finding people to be actors in your TV show" |
| 22:30 | <@Alek> | lol |
| 22:30 | <@Alek> | sorry |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Totally my fault, that one |
| 22:31 | <@Alek> | hope you understood my Gear reference? |
| 22:31 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:31 | <@TheWatcher> | jeroud: seriously though, I'm this || close to seeing how the dark engine reacts to dlls compiled in c++11 mode, or pulling in a pcre lib from somewhere :/ |
| 22:31 | <&McMartin> | Not sure I disagree, but I've definitely had issues with Gear-like setups |
| 22:31 | <@Alek> | dad has a Gear VR, which is fun, although my phone's not supported. nor is his NEW phone. >_> anyway, fun, but the controls suck. |
| 22:33 | <@Alek> | when I tried it with his old phone, though, it was definitely displaying nicely. So I thought some kind of similar goggle-style headset that shows the whole screen instead of splitting it for parallax would be awesome. Only, being that close, there'd be trouble with seeing only part of the display with each eye. |
| 22:34 | <@Alek> | then again. maybe instead of projecting from the phone display, have it project from built-in displays on each eye, via hdmi from the phone? |
| 22:34 | <&jeroud> | Alek: Have it display the same image to each eye? |
| 22:34 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:34 | <&McMartin> | The part where I'd worry is how my inner ear would react to moving my head |
| 22:34 | <&jeroud> | I guess it's the wrong shape, then. |
| 22:35 | <@Alek> | jer: that runs into the same problem as the VR. much decreased resolution. plus the shape, sure. |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | My personal experiments with VR have involved me falling down or doubling over if the head motions aren't properly tracked |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | incredibly disorienting to me |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | When it's working though, it's very good indeed. |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | I now grant that VR is a technology that exists |
| 22:35 | <@Alek> | I spent my VR tests sitting down, so it worked fine. |
| 22:35 | <&jeroud> | McMartin: That is the canonical VR failure mode. |
| 22:36 | < LadyOfLight> | any VR system I've seen that's worth it has very precise and accurate head tracking |
| 22:37 | <&McMartin> | Yep |
| 22:37 | <&McMartin> | It's when the CPU hiccups or what have you |
| 22:37 | <@Alek> | anyway. for Gear VR, though, my opinion is that it sorely needs a handheld control instead of on-headset control. because it's WAY too easy to lose track of where the controls are. |
| 22:37 | < LadyOfLight> | This is why all of the commercial gaming ones have a very centred, concrete base location |
| 22:37 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:37 | | * Alek nods |
| 22:38 | <&McMartin> | But get a rendering hitch for even like 10 milliseconds and that's enough time for my proprioception to FREAK OUT. |
| 22:38 | <&McMartin> | There is basically zero leeway; it's very intresting |
| 22:38 | | * LadyOfLight nods |
| 22:38 | <@Alek> | I'm gonna go up to grab lunch and wait for my nephew to wake up so I can watch him till his dad picks him up. -_- |
| 22:38 | < LadyOfLight> | I've found some things queasy, but I don't get any weirdness from, say, the frequent camera cuts in that platformer I can't remember the name of, the one with the ribbons and the dancer |
| 22:38 | < LadyOfLight> | Hm |
| 22:39 | <@Alek> | oh, and does anyone else notice a transmission delay on BT audio or is it just me? split-second but I still notice the unsynching on YT, for instance. |
| 22:40 | <&McMartin> | LadyOfLight: I've heard that teleportation is less disorienting than smooth travel outside of Obviously A Vehicle, but I haven't tested this myself |
| 22:40 | < LadyOfLight> | I can believe it |
| 22:42 | <@Alek> | heh. I recall reading a historical novel, set around the time of the development of the railway, where characters complained that a 50km/h rail carriage would upset passengers, with those facing backwards being unable to draw breath and those facing forwards unable to exhale, and both nauseated at the speed. :P |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | Catchin' bugs in your teeth |
| 22:44 | <@Alek> | I get the impression that wasn't a concern anyone could conceive of at the time. :P |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | I do think the decision was wise to not test it by enclosing the railway cars and thus permitting the air to move along with the train |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | But that's what, uh, test pilots are for |
| 22:46 | <@Alek> | perhaps, but in the book I read, set in Russia, the first tests they did were on a mine-exit railway and the carriage was roofed but open, although I might have just misparsed what I read, way back then. |
| 22:46 | <@Alek> | or it may have been unroofed. |
| 22:47 | <@Alek> | but yeah, there are reasons that rail carriages are enclosed, even with openable windows, although airflow isn't the major one. :P |
| 22:48 | <@Alek> | the major one being boiler smoke. :P |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
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| 23:15 | <@macdjord|slep> | Alek: From what I understand, it was more a concern that the high-speed passage along the outside of the train would draw all the air out from inside it, asphyxiating the passengers. Which, uh, is a real phenomenon, though it isn't a problem at the speeds those trains could actually manage. |
| 23:15 | | macdjord|slep is now known as macdjord |
| 23:17 | <@Tamber> | Air movement caused by the passage of trains is A Very Real Problem; but, not really so much, at those low speeds. *nods* |
| 23:17 | <@Tamber> | (Relatedly: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/safety-digest-032017-stowe-hill-tunne l/collision-between-a-train-and-an-engineering-trolley-stowe-hill-tunnel-7-decem ber-2016 ) |
| 23:18 | <@Tamber> | (Summary: Engineering trolleys, weighing 57kg apiece, blown out of their temporary storage locations and into various unpleasant locations by the passage of trains.) |
| 23:19 | | * Tamber then shambles sleepwards and stops annoying everyone with tangents~ |
| 23:20 | <@Alek> | and I'm sure Tangent appreciates that. :P |
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| --- Log closed Tue Mar 07 00:00:53 2017 |