| --- Log opened Sat Oct 15 00:00:32 2016 |
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| 04:31 | | * ToxicFrog gets most of the new ttyrec player features working in doomrl-server, deploys |
| 04:31 | <&McMartin> | DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM |
| 04:32 | < catadroid> | I'll sing the doom song! |
| 04:34 | <&McMartin> | YAY DOOM |
| 04:37 | < catadroid> | Doom doom doom |
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| 05:26 | <&[R]> | People actually do stuff with doomrl? |
| 05:27 | <&[R]> | IIRC it's written in the same silly language diablorl is written in (which made me uninterested in actually doing anything with the codebase) |
| 05:29 | <&McMartin> | Mostly, they play it |
| 05:31 | | * McMartin checks the implementation notes. "That's not silly, it's just old school." |
| 05:33 | <&[R]> | So it is written in the same obscure fugly language? |
| 05:37 | <&McMartin> | Pascal is not an obscure language. |
| 05:37 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 05:38 | <&McMartin> | It's not a tremendously common one these days, having been superceded by either C or Java depending on precise use case |
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| 06:08 | <&[R]> | It's number 76. |
| 06:08 | <&[R]> | 74* |
| 06:09 | <&[R]> | Awk is more in demand than it is. |
| 06:16 | <&McMartin> | Awk is also not an obscure language |
| 06:16 | <&McMartin> | "In demand" and "obscure" are not the same thing |
| 06:16 | <&McMartin> | COBOL is not obscure either. |
| 06:19 | <&McMartin> | Also, um |
| 06:20 | <&McMartin> | Actually, no, the dialect of Pascal they're using is #15 |
| 06:20 | <&McMartin> | Beating out Go, Groovy, R, MATLAB, and SQL. |
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| 07:32 | <@macdjord|slep> | McMartin: Pascal stands only slightly above PHP and COBOL in my 'languages not to work with' list. |
| 07:39 | <&McMartin> | Nevertheless, it was the standard instructional language in the 20th century and was also what most micro stuff was written in if it wasn't written in assembly language |
| 07:42 | <&McMartin> | (Wizardry, Tyrian, and the modern GameMaker core, if we're going to go through the ages) |
| 07:43 | <&McMartin> | The reason not to use it is "has no real advantages over C#". There's nothing actually *wrong* with ObjectPascal. |
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| 08:05 | <@macdjord|slep> | McMartin: Oh, as a teaching language, it's fine. I used it myself for one term back in high school. That is, in fact, what is was designed for. But for production? |
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| 08:08 | <&McMartin> | Why do you think Java is the default implementation language out there now~ |
| 08:09 | <&McMartin> | And yeah, the Borland implementation/dialect was absolutely used in production, and actually managed to compete with the big boys until Microsoft and Intel literally hired every single one of their employees who know how to do anything |
| 08:09 | <&McMartin> | ... the primary architect of which went on to design C#~ |
| 08:11 | <&McMartin> | Basically none of Dijkstra's gripes about the language continued to hold by the time we learned it in HS, and most of its syntactic differences from C actually got re-imported back into stuff like Go and Rust because it turns out the C/C++ way makes actually parsing the language properly incredibly obnoxious |
| 08:11 | <&McMartin> | But it's Just An OO Algoloid these days |
| 08:13 | <&McMartin> | And has been since, oh, '94? '95? |
| 08:14 | <&McMartin> | Our lab switched to the OO version partway through my tenure there~ |
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| 08:50 | < catadruid> | Amusingly UnrealScript looks somewhat like object pascal I think |
| 08:50 | < catadruid> | (though sadly no longer a thing since UE4 doesn't make use of it) |
| 08:52 | <&McMartin> | I went digging in some of my old files, found the old DOS programs we wound up writing as part of the Pascal course |
| 08:53 | <&McMartin> | My little utility library I accreted over the years is made almost entirely of compiler intrinsics to do wacky real-mode assembly-language hacks |
| 08:56 | <&McMartin> | If I were to make it usable again I'd probably just make it a raw-asm object file |
| --- Log closed Sat Oct 15 09:17:54 2016 |
| --- Log opened Sat Oct 15 09:18:06 2016 |
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| 09:19 | <@Azash> | Is there anyone who knows lisp/scheme around? |
| 09:20 | <&McMartin> | I've dabbled |
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| 09:21 | <@Azash> | McMartin: Have you ever encountered owl-lisp? |
| 09:23 | <@Azash> | McMartin: I'm trying to get some kind of idea of the basic function of ff-fold or at least ff-bind and I just can't grok it: |
| 09:23 | <@Azash> | https://github.com/aoh/owl-lisp/blob/master/owl/ff.scm#L363-L379 |
| 09:23 | <@Azash> | https://github.com/aoh/owl-lisp/blob/master/owl/primop.scm#L79-L84 |
| 09:23 | <&McMartin> | I have not. And looking it up, it would appear that there's been another revision on the report on Scheme since the last time I looked at it |
| 09:24 | <&McMartin> | ff-bind is magic of some kind |
| 09:24 | <&McMartin> | The other thing you link is marked FIXME and is probably broken |
| 09:25 | <&McMartin> | I believe that ff-fold however is essentially like a fold on a list, except it's on the key-value pairs of the map, taken in order (since apparently FFs are basically red-black trees) |
| 09:25 | <@Azash> | I'm trying to port a project that still uses it >_> |
| 09:25 | <@Azash> | Hm |
| 09:26 | <&McMartin> | Ah, I see. R7RS is the one that tried to pare down the giant galloping mess that was R6RS. |
| 09:31 | <@Azash> | McMartin: Think I got it now, thanks |
| 09:32 | <&McMartin> | Owl's documentation leaves something to be desired |
| 09:32 | <@Azash> | Such as documentation? |
| 09:33 | <&McMartin> | Well, it lists the names of functions! |
| 09:33 | <&McMartin> | That's a thing |
| 09:33 | <&McMartin> | It means they admit that the function exists |
| 09:33 | <&McMartin> | (which they do for ff-fold, but not ff-bind) |
| 09:34 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, yeah, the only Scheme I've done any real work with in recent years is Gambit |
| 09:34 | <&McMartin> | And it doesn't have this extension |
| 09:37 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, R7RS actually makes records part of the language, will wonders never cease~ |
| 09:47 | < catalyst> | YEs |
| 09:49 | <@Azash> | Wonders will cease when we're all dead which may come just that tiny bit faster if I keep looking at owl-lisp's C code |
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| 10:36 | | * catalyst considers the merits a floating point OO call syntax along the lines of f(x,y) == x.f(y) == (x,y).f() |
| 10:36 | < catalyst> | merits of* |
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| 17:49 | < catalyst> | "This slider is a little overloaded. Radical idea! Perhaps instead of providing one control from zero to potato, we should introduce some orthogonality." |
| 17:54 | <@celticminstrel> | XD |
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| 17:57 | < Mango> | :) |
| 17:58 | <@celticminstrel> | Mmm, mango. |
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| 19:59 | | * McMartin reads backscroll. "(x, y).f() is an interesting syntax for multiple dispatch that I don't think I've actually seen." |
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| 21:26 | <&[R]> | <ender> so... apparently Windows Server 2016 has the same update settings as Windows 10, and reboots automatically after updates are applied |
| 21:27 | <@Alek> | that's not good. |
| 21:27 | <&[R]> | Nope. MS clearly hates uptime. |
| 21:27 | <&McMartin> | That's advertised as configurable, AFAIK |
| 21:27 | <&[R]> | That shouldn't be the default! |
| 21:28 | <&McMartin> | I dunno |
| 21:29 | <&McMartin> | My experience with enterprise-level MS is "just have whoever has domain admin credentials actually set everything up, because whatever you need, it isn't the default, and it also isn't the same as your last job either" |
| 21:29 | <@Azash> | So now that both Windows and Linux are going with confusing defaults, does iOS also have some examples of it? |
| 21:29 | <&McMartin> | iOS is made of basically nothing but |
| 21:29 | <&McMartin> | But I guess they aren't "confusing" because you can't control them |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | Also it spreads out the questions of how to configure your devices behaviour over the course of like three days by interrupting you with pop-up windows as it sees fit |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | Not even as needed, just "oh, you probably won't be scared if I ask you to decide something now" |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | The mobile world in general is exciting intrinsically though. Both Android and iOS have "kill -9" as the default mechanism for actually closing applications. |
| 21:31 | <&McMartin> | AIUI, though I've only *caught* iOS doing it, due to what one does when debugging either |
| 21:31 | <&McMartin> | (iOS is a BSD core, same as macOS, incidentally. Only the wrappers are different... though the wrapper is much harder and more fixed on iOS, obvs) |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | If we allow macOS, to keep it to desktop, though, macOS defaults to the mousewheel running backwards. |
| 21:35 | <&[R]> | <ender> also, apparently new macbooks only have a single USB C port that's used both for charging the laptop, and connecting any peripherials, and need an adapter if you want to charge and connect an USB device at the same time... |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | Yep. That's been true for about three generations |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | But that's not the *OS*'s fault |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | Also, at least for the instant moment, MBPs are relatively sane in terms of connectors... |
| 21:38 | <&McMartin> | And, well, USB C seems to have become a nearly-literal tire fire itself |
| 21:38 | <&McMartin> | Instead of USB A's "it's not obviously assymetric so you get it wrong the first time you try, every time", USB C seems to be "cables identical to casual inspection actually have sufficiently different electrical properties that they can fry your devices if you mix and match" |
| 21:40 | <@Alek> | it's also the case as of the latest iPhone, R. |
| 21:46 | <~Vornicus> | wait what's this about usb c |
| 21:50 | <@Alek> | http://cache-www.belkin.com/resources/img/overview/f2cu029/USB-C_Reversible_291x 291_v01-r01.png |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | Vorn: IIRC the failure mode involves attempting to fast charge devices that aren't equipped for it |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | Because the only other way I could read the actual people-who-seem-to-know-what-they-were-talking about thing is that certain wires are actually Vcc on some cables but not others and I cannot make that make any sense at all |
| 21:52 | <~Vornicus> | that's crazy |
| 21:53 | | * McMartin goes to try to dig up more, also gets "a bunch of cables have incorrect resistances, which messes up devices which *can* fast-charge" |
| 21:53 | <~Vornicus> | that's *extra* crazy |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | http://www.howtogeek.com/240777/watch-out-how-to-buy-a-usb-type-c-cable-that-won t-damage-your-devices/ |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | So, you know |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | Even if we account for the fact that I have an Atari 2600 and a Commodore 128 on this computer desk too |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | It kinda seems like USB C is not quite a mature technology yet |
| 21:57 | <&McMartin> | "While you can always rely on the cables that come in the box, and should use those cables any chance you get, you probably need more than one. UPDATE: Apple just issued a recall for their USB-C cables." |
| 21:57 | <&McMartin> | (From http://www.androidcentral.com/usb-c-problem-isnt-going-away-anytime-soon ) |
| 21:59 | <@Azash> | McMartin: Just waiting for the cert chain cables to start rolling out |
| 22:00 | | * McMartin nods |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | I'm generally speaking not an early adopter |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | So it turns out I have no devices with USB C ports |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | And it seems like I'll be continuing in that vein until we get some kind of real compliance testing |
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| --- Log closed Sun Oct 16 00:00:48 2016 |