| --- Log opened Wed Feb 17 00:00:20 2016 |
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| 01:06 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:09 | | * Derakon amuseds at https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2641432 |
| 01:09 | <&Derakon> | Which is a fairly standard guide to running disk diagnostics on Windows 7...except that one screenshot is inexplicably in German. |
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| 09:18 | <@abudhabi> | I am pleased: I can SSH into my laptop at home via SSH to my DMZ server. |
| 09:19 | <@abudhabi> | Next step would be to find a port of Remmina for Windows. |
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| 12:23 | <@gnolam> | NGHGAGHahhghl |
| 12:23 | <@gnolam> | Mother. Fucking. Legacy. Encodings. |
| 12:25 | <@abudhabi> | All of them? |
| 12:34 | <@gnolam> | If anyone can find an encoding that maps 0xd4 to 'Ф' and 0x8e to 'Ð', let me know, because as far as I can tell /that doesn't fucking exist/. |
| 12:43 | <@TheWatcher> | Terrifying possibility: are you sure it's a single encoding? |
| 12:45 | <@abudhabi> | The first one appears to be CP1251, while the second appears to be nothing at all. |
| 12:46 | <@abudhabi> | Possibly CP855... |
| 12:48 | <@abudhabi> | But no, that doesn't remotely match. |
| 13:47 | <@gnolam> | So. Turned out to be some sort of custom byte fuckery I cannot for the life of me see the reason for /followed/ by CP1251. >_< |
| 13:56 | <@gnolam> | People think I'm kidding when I tell them I have a bottle of scotch at my desk for when I have to deal with the legacy parts of this project... |
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| 17:49 | <&jerith> | gnolam: Sounds like a normal day building telco integrations for a messaging system. |
| 18:11 | <@celticminstrel> | ...uh... so, I'm on the github notifications page and it says "No new notifications"... but the little bell at the top has a blue dot indicating there are notifications... :S |
| 18:12 | <@abudhabi> | You have invisible notifications! |
| 18:13 | <@celticminstrel> | Hmm, maybe there was just a delay in clearing them, because it's gone now. |
| 18:13 | <@celticminstrel> | Weird though. |
| 19:25 | <@gnolam> | jerith: I finally found the bit of code responsible. It consisted of a bunch of nested select case (VB's switch/case) statements, with completely unordered and /multiply redundant/ cases (which is somewhat surprisingly syntactically allowed). |
| 19:27 | <@gnolam> | I gave up on even trying to follow it and instead ripped it out into a test program that brute force blackboxed it. :P |
| 19:28 | <&jeroud> | VB.NET or old VB? |
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| 19:45 | <@gnolam> | VB5. |
| 19:47 | <&jerith> | In that case, I'm surprised it's not mandatory. |
| 19:52 | <@gnolam> | Blackboxing, weird syntax or scotch? |
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| 20:19 | <&jerith> | All of the above. |
| 20:21 | <&jerith> | But the only reason old-VB is behind PHP in my "languages I think are incredibly dangerous" list is that VB hides its horribleness less. |
| 20:25 | <@Reiv> | VB is also (often) used in less spectacularly public locations |
| 20:26 | <@Reiv> | Which is to say, it might be terrible and bad, but that matters relatively less if you're scripting up a private-use workbook or macro |
| 20:27 | <@Reiv> | Wheras I'm not familiar with PHP being used for things that /aren't/ public-ally attackable websites. |
| 20:27 | <&McMartin> | At the time VB5 was released, it was also about seven years ahead of its time |
| 20:27 | <&McMartin> | ... where it stayed unchanged for 20 |
| 20:28 | <&jerith> | Nieszka is sleeping so deeply that I was able to extract my foot without waking her. |
| 20:28 | <&McMartin> | VB is the earliest usable form-editing dev system I know of, and it might actually straight-up be the first one for PCs full stop |
| 20:31 | <&jerith> | Did it predate Delphi? |
| 20:31 | <&jerith> | I think it did. |
| 20:32 | <&McMartin> | VB is pretty awful but its explosive popularity in the 1990s is not one of the mysterious things about it. |
| 20:33 | <&McMartin> | Especially since I've had to do Windows programming without a form editor using 1990s tech before |
| 20:33 | <&McMartin> | And never again, thank you, christ, wt actual f |
| 20:35 | <&jerith> | The tooling around it was fantastic. |
| 20:35 | <&jerith> | The language itself... not so much. |
| 20:42 | <&McMartin> | By modern standards the tooling is a bit weak |
| 20:43 | <&McMartin> | But that's by very modern standards. |
| 20:43 | <&jerith> | Note my use of the past tense. :-) |
| 20:43 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 20:44 | <&McMartin> | And, frankly, saying "by 2005 the form editing for VB5 was uniformly worse than the best form designers" is... not an insult |
| 20:47 | <&jerith> | By 2005, VB5 had already been replaced by VB6 and quite possibly VB.NET. |
| 20:48 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, and 6's form design still didn't have springs or autoexpanding widgets, which is unacceptable by 2005. |
| 20:50 | <&jerith> | I tutored a VB6 course for two years and have successfully repressed almost all my memories of it. |
| 20:59 | <@Reiv> | springs? |
| 20:59 | <@Reiv> | And yeah, VB5 was pretty solid |
| 20:59 | <@Reiv> | I mean as a /language/ it wasn't great, but you could certainly do Enough in it to be acceptable |
| 21:00 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: Springs are Qt's name for widgets that aren't drawn but provide "pressure" to move the widgets that *are* drawn into the appropriate places when you resize a window |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | Since while *some* widgets (e.g., text edit boxes) scale proportionally with the window, others (buttons) don't. |
| 21:02 | <@Reiv> | I understand the explanation of resizable vs fixed, but I'm still fuzzy on what exactly the interaction of these elements are wrt springs |
| 21:03 | <@Tamber> | Sproing! |
| 21:06 | < ion_> | So springs are basically to provide visual consistancy in a UI arrangement? |
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| 21:14 | <@gnolam> | Qt's name for the concept is actually "spacer". |
| 21:14 | <&McMartin> | Ah, OK, sorry |
| 21:14 | <&McMartin> | The last time I used QtDesigner they appeared there as little springs |
| 21:15 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: There's four coordinates; width, height, x, y |
| 21:15 | <&McMartin> | x and y are the things that get adjusted for you by neighboring springs |
| 21:15 | <&McMartin> | iOS as near as I can tell deals with this by actually solving systems of linear constraints you specify |
| 21:15 | <&McMartin> | Which is probably strictly more powerful but also a rather higher cognitive load~ |
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| 21:21 | <@gnolam> | Reiv: Widgets are arranged in layouts. Layouts tend to be rather simple; the basic versions are to stack widgets vertically, stack widgets horizontally, or arrange widgets in a grid. |
| 21:22 | <@gnolam> | Since you don't want to use fixed sizes for your windows, they can resize. |
| 21:23 | <@gnolam> | By default, the widgets - which can contain other widgets in layouts - take up as much space as you can, but you can usually specify the proportion to which they should resize. |
| 21:24 | <@gnolam> | Spacers then are basically "null widgets" that just eat as much space as they can. |
| 21:24 | <@gnolam> | So if you want a window where one widget stays on the left and one widget stays on the right, no matter how you resize the window, you would use a horizontal layout that looked like: |
| 21:24 | <@gnolam> | [widget] [spacer] [widget] |
| 21:25 | <@gnolam> | Where the widgets are set to stay their original size but the spacer is allowed to expand as much as it wants to. |
| 21:25 | <@Reiv> | This maps to my understing to date, yes |
| 21:25 | <@Reiv> | oh wait, are springs spacers? |
| 21:26 | <&McMartin> | yes |
| 21:26 | <@Reiv> | Oh, OK. Sorry, missed that line. |
| 21:26 | <&McMartin> | I had confused the icon for the name |
| 21:26 | <@gnolam> | Qt calls them spacers. wx calls them sizers. McM calls them springs. |
| 21:29 | <&jerith> | I want to use McM's UI library. |
| 21:29 | <&McMartin> | GTK didn't have them the last time I used it; it instead had some flags you set in ways I never properly understood |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | This is pretty great |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | http://www.businessinsider.com/oss-manual-sabotage-productivity-2015-11 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Feb 18 00:00:36 2016 |