| --- Log opened Mon Oct 13 00:00:08 2014 |
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| 02:21 | <@Alek> | http://imgur.com/gallery/bJp5pJ3 |
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| 12:14 | <@Azash> | http://www.gironsec.com/blog/2014/10/damn-you-sourceforge/ |
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| 12:42 | | * TheWatcher arghs at brain |
| 12:45 | <@TheWatcher> | No, bad brain, too many PŠÆOJEŠTS as it is, damnit. |
| 13:42 | | * Azash happily types "elem" into repl |
| 13:42 | <@Azash> | Error: Variable has been optimized out |
| 13:42 | <@Azash> | WELL THEN |
| 13:43 | <@TheWatcher> | NO ELEMS FOR YOU! |
| 13:48 | <@Tarinaky> | http://blog.regehr.org/ |
| 13:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Pretty cool. |
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| 14:22 | <@Azash> | http://blog.djmnet.org/2013/01/14/from-novice-to-master-and-back-again/ |
| 14:29 | <@Tarinaky> | :) |
| 14:30 | | * iospace is in need of lots of caffeine this morning |
| 14:50 | <@Azash> | https://gitlab.brokenpipe.de/stettberger/avremu/tree/master |
| 14:52 | | * TheWatcher eyes that |
| 14:53 | <@TheWatcher> | ... madness |
| 15:15 | | * simon_ is writing a Prolog interpreter in Haskell. |
| 15:21 | <@TheWatcher> | The obvious question: why? |
| 15:29 | < simon_> | I'll answer like a true Prolog programmer: Yes. |
| 15:29 | < simon_> | unify (Compound f xs) (Compound g ys) = |
| 15:29 | < simon_> | if f /= g then Nothing else |
| 15:29 | < simon_> | concat <$> zipWithM unify xs ys |
| 15:29 | < simon_> | Haskell is awesome. |
| 15:30 | < simon_> | this case solves unifying e.g. 'foo(X, hello)' and 'foo(world, Y)' by giving 'Just [("X", worldTerm), ("Y", helloTerm)]' :) |
| 15:39 | < simon_> | TheWatcher, I figured I might understand Prolog better if I did. |
| 15:40 | < simon_> | TheWatcher, also, I'm making it into an exam-preparation exercise for a course I'm TAing. |
| 15:41 | < RchrdB> | simon_: nice. :) |
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| 16:27 | | * McMartin would answer that question with "because to write anything remotely interesting in Prolog you have to program directly to that implementation's search strategy, so you might as well write your own damn searcher in the first place" |
| 16:46 | <@Tarinaky> | I didn't really get the point of prolog. |
| 16:46 | <&McMartin> | It's one of the first and still the best-developed logic programming language. |
| 16:46 | <&McMartin> | Logic programming continues to exist because you cannot erase knowledge |
| 16:47 | <@Tarinaky> | This still isn't communicating the point unfortunately. |
| 16:48 | <@Azash> | McMartin: Out of curiosity |
| 16:48 | <@Azash> | Does prolog do like.. I don't know the terms for this |
| 16:48 | <@Azash> | Is it strict yes/no ("is thing true") or more like possibility ("can thing be derived") |
| 16:48 | <&McMartin> | The latter |
| 16:48 | <@Azash> | Neat |
| 16:48 | | * Azash remembers semantic trees, gags |
| 16:49 | <&McMartin> | Prolog is a language built around a very specific deductive database search technique called, IIRC, backward unification chaining. |
| 16:49 | <&McMartin> | But it's been a *long* time and I was never an expert. |
| 16:49 | <&McMartin> | Because even my most academic professors gave me the line I gave above re: 'you're gonna have to implement your own backward chainer anyhow' |
| 16:49 | <@Azash> | Ah |
| 16:50 | <@Azash> | Sounds like there's some competing implementations and someone needs to provide a unifying one |
| 16:50 | <@Tarinaky> | XKCD here |
| 16:50 | <&McMartin> | There exist professional PROLOG programmers out there |
| 16:50 | <&McMartin> | So there are dialects &c |
| 16:50 | <@Azash> | Tarinaky: XKCD did not invent the concept |
| 16:50 | <&McMartin> | My thesis invovled a restricted version called Datalog |
| 16:51 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, the original formulation of that strip was "Standards are great! There are so many to choose from!" and it predates the Internet. |
| 16:52 | <@Tarinaky> | Azash: And rapper's delight re-uses the bass track from another song. So what? |
| 16:58 | <@Azash> | I hope you're not implying Randall Munroe is creative |
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| 17:06 | < RchrdB> | ? |
| 17:06 | < RchrdB> | ANSI Prolog specifies a specific deductive database search strategy, depth-first search. |
| 17:06 | < RchrdB> | GNU prolog and SW Prolog both implement that, I've no idea what commercial implementations do. |
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| 17:12 | <&McMartin> | RchrdB: ISTR subtleties around cut and some other control stuff that extends that |
| 17:12 | <&McMartin> | Basic queries are standard everywhere AFAIK |
| 17:13 | <@froztbyte> | hrmph |
| 17:13 | <@froztbyte> | about to start on a biggish gpg/etc renewal adventure |
| 17:13 | <@froztbyte> | who of you folks bother with this? |
| 17:14 | <&McMartin> | I've never used gpg seriously, though I know the theory. |
| 17:18 | < RchrdB> | Cut's operational semantics are in the ANSI standard too. |
| 17:19 | < RchrdB> | the only thing I've seen in my microscopic depth of experience wildly diverge is assert/1, which in SWIPL loses effect if backtraced over, but in other impls I think is a permanent side effect even if a later goal fails and rescinds it. |
| 17:19 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: hrm |
| 17:19 | <@froztbyte> | I'm basically trying to see which of my contacts do, and then figure out what WoT path I could take |
| 17:19 | <@froztbyte> | since I can't reasonably do personal/physical verification for most of them |
| 17:20 | <@froztbyte> | I have a reasonably solid edge on at least 1 contact here, but I don't really want to rely on only that edge |
| 17:21 | | * McMartin nods |
| 17:21 | <@froztbyte> | had a really annoying missed opportunity week before last |
| 17:21 | <@froztbyte> | Allison Randall was at PyconZA |
| 17:24 | <@froztbyte> | (she's a DD, and has pretty strong gpg ties) |
| 17:25 | <&McMartin> | EAP? |
| 17:26 | <@froztbyte> | wut ;p |
| 17:26 | <&McMartin> | "Expand acronym please" |
| 17:26 | <@froztbyte> | oh |
| 17:26 | <@froztbyte> | debian developer |
| 17:26 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: that was confusing because EAP-TLS |
| 17:26 | <&McMartin> | Whoops >_> |
| 17:26 | <@froztbyte> | or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Authentication_Protocol more generally, I guess |
| 17:54 | < RchrdB> | I am looking at a piece of code that I think has eaten the minds of several successive programmers |
| 17:54 | <&McMartin> | om nom nom |
| 17:54 | <&McMartin> | om nom |
| 17:54 | <&McMartin> | *ding* |
| 17:54 | < RchrdB> | it's got that scent of dried blood and desperation to it, like someone wrote a buggy hunk of shit at first, and then it spiralled |
| 17:55 | <&McMartin> | That statement implies there are worlds where first drafts are shining gems |
| 17:55 | < RchrdB> | every successive programmer to add something to this file was operating on progressively smaller proportions of their normal mental capacities, because the amount of damage done to the programmers themselves by the code has just kept increasing |
| 17:56 | < RchrdB> | McMartin: I was just establishing the base case for a downward spiral. |
| 17:57 | < RchrdB> | If the successive programmers had been able to make a net improvement to quality each time, it'd have been a virtuous cycle instead. |
| 18:32 | <&jerith> | https://gitlab.brokenpipe.de/stettberger/avremu/tree/master |
| 18:32 | <&jerith> | Was it ToxicFrog who wrote the IRC client in PostScript? |
| 18:32 | <&McMartin> | Dunno |
| 18:32 | <&jerith> | That thing I linked is an AVR emulator in LaTeX. |
| 18:32 | <&McMartin> | This was linked a few screens up though |
| 18:32 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 18:33 | <&jerith> | Ah. The place I saw the link was more recent than any activity in here, so I didn't really dig further. |
| 18:35 | <&McMartin> | Well, it got no real commentary besides "o.O" |
| 19:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | jerith: yes |
| 19:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | (although I used netcat for the actual networking bits and talked to it using fifos) |
| 19:14 | <&jeroud> | I think I asked if you still had that code anywhere last time it came up. |
| 19:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | I wrote it on a work machine back in 2002 or 2003, so... |
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| 19:35 | <@froztbyte> | http://blog.froztbyte.net/2014/10/keys-identity-etc/ |
| 19:35 | <@froztbyte> | that's about as thoroughly verified as I can do right now |
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| --- Log closed Mon Oct 13 22:54:02 2014 |
| --- Log opened Mon Oct 13 22:55:36 2014 |
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| --- Log closed Tue Oct 14 00:00:29 2014 |