| --- Log opened Fri Aug 22 00:00:44 2014 |
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| 03:26 | <@Reiv> | HEY VORN |
| 03:26 | <@Reiv> | So, you're familiar with exploding dice |
| 03:26 | <@Reiv> | Where eg a 6 on a die lets you roll for another d6, eg |
| 03:27 | <@Reiv> | What's the average and standard deviation for a situation where you're rolling and adding together d6 and anything 2+ explodes? |
| 03:31 | <~Vornicus> | Holy shit |
| 03:31 | <~Vornicus> | That will go apeshit |
| 03:33 | <@Reiv> | Yes, yes it will |
| 03:33 | <@Reiv> | But it will not, however, sum to infinity. |
| 03:33 | <@Reiv> | Afterall, there's a 1 in 6 chance it ends in a 1! |
| 03:34 | <@Reiv> | Abliet, granted, a 0 chance that it ends in a 2. |
| 03:34 | <@Reiv> | Which is why it is amusing. |
| 03:34 | <@Reiv> | ... Though it might help smooth the graph if we count the cases where 1s are ignored entirely, hm |
| 03:36 | < [R]> | Also why you never let Chaos clerics use improvised weapons (or be Small) |
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| 03:38 | <@Reiv> | what |
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| 03:52 | | * Vornicus will poke at it tomorrow. slepnow |
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| 03:59 | <@macdjord> | Reiv: Sum[1..Inf]((5/6)^n * (2+3+4+5+6)/5) + 1 |
| 04:00 | <@macdjord> | No, wait. Sum[0..Inf]((1/6)(5/6)^n * (2+3+4+5+6)/5) + 1 |
| 04:02 | <@Reiv> | That'll give a useful average, will it? |
| 04:03 | <@macdjord> | That'll give the expected value, if I did it right. |
| 04:05 | <@macdjord> | Arg, still wrong. |
| 04:06 | <@macdjord> | Sum[0..Inf]((1/6)(5/6)^n * n(2+3+4+5+6)/5) + 1 |
| 04:07 | <@macdjord> | (Sum[0..Inf]((5/6)^n * n(2+3+4+5+6)/5) + 1)/6 |
| 04:07 | <@macdjord> | .. yeah, there we go. |
| 04:08 | <@macdjord> | ... |
| 04:08 | | * macdjord mutters |
| 04:08 | | * macdjord starts over. |
| 04:10 | <@macdjord> | Sum[n=0..Inf]((1/6)(5/6)^n * (n(2+3+4+5+6/6) + 1)) |
| 04:10 | <@macdjord> | Run of length 1 has a 1/6 chance and a value of 1. |
| 04:11 | <@macdjord> | Run of length 2 has a (5/6)*(1/6) chance, and a value of 1 + (2+3+4+5+6)/5 |
| 04:11 | <@macdjord> | ... |
| 04:11 | <@macdjord> | Er, typo. |
| 04:12 | <@macdjord> | Sum[n=0..Inf]((1/6)(5/6)^n * (n(2+3+4+5+6)/5 + 1)) |
| 04:12 | <@Reiv> | Which comes out as, uh |
| 04:16 | <@macdjord> | Reiv: Appears to conver to 20.83333... |
| 04:17 | <@macdjord> | (Solving it is beond me, but putting it in a spreadsheet and extending to 200 rows makes a perfectly workable numerical solver) |
| 04:25 | <@Reiv> | haha |
| 04:25 | <@Reiv> | If it's ina spreadsheet, what's the curve look like? |
| 04:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's converging to 18.5 for me. I wonder if I have a typo. |
| 04:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | The first term is (1/6) * (5/6)^n, not ((1/6)(5/6))^n, right? |
| 04:29 | <@macdjord> | ToxicFrog: Correct. There is always a 1/6 chance of rolling a 1 in the last slot. |
| 04:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh, I had a typo. |
| 04:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | And with that fixed it converges to 17.6- |
| 04:31 | <@macdjord> | I had a typo too... |
| 04:31 | <@macdjord> | Now it converges to 21. |
| 04:31 | <@macdjord> | (I had forgotten the 0th term) |
| 04:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | user=> (reduce |
| 04:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | #_=> + |
| 04:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | #_=> (take 2000 |
| 04:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | #_=> (map (fn [n] (* 1/6 |
| 04:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | #_=> (pow 5/6 n) |
| 04:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | #_=> (+ 1 (* n 20/6)))) |
| 04:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | #_=> (range)))) |
| 04:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | 17.666666666666657 |
| 04:32 | <@Reiv> | ANd you lot wonder why I ask Vornicus~ |
| 04:32 | <@Reiv> | ToxicFrog: What's the curve look like? |
| 04:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | Good question. |
| 04:36 | <&Derakon> | From the Angband development channel: |
| 04:36 | <&Derakon> | [20:30] <carcharoth> build #286 of osx-restruct is complete: Exception [exception upload] Build details are at http://buildbot.rephial.org:8010/builders/osx-restruct/builds/286 blamelist: nckmccnnll@yahoo.com.au, elly@leptoquark.net |
| 04:36 | <&Derakon> | [20:31] <nck_m> that failure is because I killed my buildslave so the upload would stop hammering my son's ping for TF2 |
| 04:36 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 04:36 | <@macdjord> | ToxicFrog: (+ 1 (* n 20/6)))) <- Should be /5 |
| 04:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | user=> (reductions + (take 25 (map (fn [n] (* 1/6 (pow 5/6 n) (+ 1 (* n 20/6)))) (range)))) |
| 04:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | (0.1666666666666667 0.7685185185185187 1.6558641975308646 2.7168209876543212 3.868870027434842 5.052176211705532 6.224319130086876 7.356150254978914 8.42854732536749 9.429881939284533 10.35405277470976 11.19896624075386 11.96537004844873 12.655964265409553 13.274729760556156 13.826426268466587 14.316222187798834 14.749426145081445 15.131296685460626 15.466911504646335 15.761081661359198 16.018299409223893 16.242710824614452 16.4381064 |
| 04:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | 14248235 16.607924469616652) |
| 04:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | macdjord: it's written 5 in your equation! |
| 04:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | Er |
| 04:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's written 6, rather |
| 04:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...oh, I was reading the pre-typo one |
| 04:37 | <@macdjord> | [23:09:41] <macdjord> Er, typo. |
| 04:37 | <@macdjord> | [23:09:57] <macdjord> Sum[n=0..Inf]((1/6)(5/6)^n * (n(2+3+4+5+6)/5 + 1)) |
| 04:37 | <@macdjord> | That's the last version I typed. |
| 04:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | user=> (reduce + (take 2000 (map (fn [n] (* 1/6 (pow 5/6 n) (+ 1 (* n 20/5)))) (range)))) |
| 04:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | 20.999999999999986 |
| 04:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | user=> (reductions + (take 20 (map (fn [n] (* 1/6 (pow 5/6 n) (+ 1 (* n 20/5)))) (range)))) |
| 04:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | (0.1666666666666667 0.8611111111111114 1.9027777777777781 3.156635802469136 4.523019547325103 5.929591049382716 7.324999285550983 8.673893913846975 9.953018130334552 11.14815944371941 12.251780926800022 13.261190819861557 14.177136833935913 15.002734431655997 15.742656806971166 16.40252910074639 16.98848127418067 17.50682358144946 17.963816195345856 18.365510616236524) |
| 04:38 | <@macdjord> | ToxicFrog: You must be using higher precision; I converge to 21 at step 139 |
| 04:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | macdjord: oh, it probably converges earlier, I picked 2000 arbitrarily |
| 04:39 | <@macdjord> | ToxicFrog: No, you went to 2000 and /didn't/ converge. |
| 04:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh. I see. Yours is rounding it to 21? |
| 04:39 | <@macdjord> | Reiv: Looks a lot like a tan() graph to me. |
| 04:40 | <@macdjord> | ToxicFrog: Yes, after 139 terms. |
| 04:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | user=> (->> (map (fn [n] (* 1/6 (pow 5/6 n) (+ 1 (* n 20/5)))) (range)) (take 139) (reduce +)) |
| 04:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | 20.9999999943117 |
| 04:41 | <@macdjord> | Reiv: Wait, no, it's not a tan(). Expected value of each term grows, peaking at 1.40 in term 5, then shrinks again. |
| 04:42 | <@macdjord> | Reiv: What do you want to do with the curve here? What are you trying to determin? |
| 04:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, if you want the actual terms |
| 04:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | user=> (->> (map (fn [n] (* 1/6 (pow 5/6 n) (+ 1 (* n 20/5)))) (range)) (take 20)) |
| 04:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | (0.1666666666666667 0.6944444444444446 1.0416666666666667 1.253858024691358 1.366383744855967 1.406571502057613 1.3954082361682667 1.348894628295991 1.2791242164875776 1.1951413133848579 1.1036214830806117 1.009409893061535 0.9159460140743557 0.8255975977200826 0.7399223753151682 0.659872293775223 0.5859521734342827 0.5183423072687885 0.4569926138963956 0.4016944208906674) |
| 04:43 | <@macdjord> | Er, 5th term starting at 0~ |
| 04:45 | <@Reiv> | That's a funky graph |
| 04:46 | <@Reiv> | ToxicFrog: What'd be the next 20-odd values in that sequence? |
| 04:46 | <@Reiv> | I'm also puzzled |
| 04:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | user=> (->> (map (fn [n] (* 1/6 (pow 5/6 n) (+ 1 (* n 20/5)))) (range)) (take 40) (take-last 20)) |
| 04:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | (0.35213471961194864 0.3079367404013954 0.26868990093847245 0.23397154295204056 0.203362362601684 0.17645703284166736 0.1528711918182762 0.13224571355708017 0.11424897272133074 0.0985776534542455 0.0849565247005962 0.0731375040466565 0.0628982534801246 0.05404048910114063 0.04638813914070342 0.039785447803158035 0.034095094157552686 0.029196373732616954 0.024983474167172226 0.021363864075414154) |
| 04:47 | <@Reiv> | Just to clarify: Is this counting a 1 if it's rolled? |
| 04:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm off to bed, feel free to fiddle with it yourself |
| 04:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Use (reduce +) for the total and (reductions +) for all the intermediate totals |
| 04:47 | <@Reiv> | Night, TF! |
| 04:47 | <@macdjord> | Reiv: Fire up Excel or LibreaOffice yourself, put 1, 2, 3... in the A column, and =(1/6)*((5/6)^A1)*(1 + (A1*4)) in B |
| 04:48 | <@macdjord> | Then =SUM(B$1:B1) in C |
| 04:48 | <@macdjord> | Extend all 3 columns as far down as needed |
| 04:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | (language is clojure, btw, if you couldn't tell~) |
| 04:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | (with (defn pow [b e] (Math/pow b e)) in scope because fuck java) |
| 04:49 | <@Reiv> | ToxicFrog: I figured, but I most certainly don't have it running here~ |
| 04:49 | <@Reiv> | We're not even allowed to use Python ;_; |
| 04:50 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 04:50 | <@Reiv> | So it's C# if you're a software dev or VBA if you're not |
| 04:50 | <@Reiv> | (Yes, you may now start crying) |
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| 12:30 | <@gnolam> | NGhghghg |
| 12:32 | <@gnolam> | Goddamnit Postgres, it's an autoincrement field. FUCKING AUTOINCREMENT IT THEN. |
| 13:14 | < [R]> | At least it's not SQLite |
| 13:14 | <@gnolam> | SQLite hasn't given me any trouble. |
| 13:15 | < [R]> | "Fifty character binary string? Yeah, that'll go into CHAR(3) just fine." |
| 13:15 | < [R]> | (As per design) |
| 13:16 | < [R]> | Basically it freely ignores type constraints. |
| 13:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Then they aren't really constraints, are they~ |
| 13:32 | < [R]> | Correct |
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| 16:05 | < Xon> | [R], sqlite only has one type; strings |
| 16:05 | < Xon> | anything else is lies |
| 16:05 | < Xon> | (or dodgy hacks) |
| 16:07 | < Syka> | [R]: yeah there's only types to make userland code happy |
| 16:08 | < Syka> | Xon: that's sqlite2 |
| 16:08 | < Syka> | sqlite3 has null, integer, float, text and blob |
| 16:08 | < Syka> | BUT, they're not column constraints, only data storage types |
| 16:09 | < Syka> | you can put a string in an integer column |
| 16:09 | < Syka> | sqlite don't care |
| 16:09 | < Syka> | buuuuut if you have an integer column it will convert strings that are ints (eg. "1") to proper ints |
| 16:10 | < Syka> | AS LONG AS there is no loss of precision |
| 16:10 | < Syka> | eg. a number that is a string rep of a 128bit floating point will not be cast to a 64bit fp |
| 16:12 | | * Syka knows *far* too much about sqlite |
| 16:15 | < Xon> | rofl |
| 16:15 | < Xon> | that is /insane/ for a "database" |
| 16:16 | < Syka> | howso |
| 16:17 | < Syka> | it seems perfectly reasonable to me |
| 16:17 | < Syka> | it's documented, and is not surprising in its implementation |
| 16:19 | < Syka> | Xon: don't forget that sqlite is used by a lot of things that don't *have* strict types |
| 16:19 | < Syka> | and sqlite is a replacement for fopen(), not for postgres |
| 16:20 | < Xon> | true |
| 16:20 | < Syka> | it just so happens that it's an excellent storage engine |
| 16:21 | < Syka> | and *can* be used for real things |
| 16:21 | < Syka> | eg. divmod axiom, which is just sqlite underneath |
| 16:21 | < Syka> | but is hella good |
| 16:24 | <@ErikMesoy> | TThrottle consistently reports that XCOM is using >100% of my CPU. I wonder how this is calculated. |
| 16:25 | < Syka> | bsd-style CPU max % = CPUs * 100%? |
| 16:25 | < Syka> | (so multi-core would report > 100%?) |
| 16:28 | < Xon> | Syka, that's a nix-style thing |
| 16:29 | < Xon> | tho I think TThrottle is a windows app? |
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| 17:02 | <@gnolam> | We've hit SQLite's performance limits; otherwise I'd happily keep using it |
| 17:02 | <@gnolam> | . |
| 17:05 | <@gnolam> | Meanwhile in Postgres land: case sensitivity coupled with automatic conversions -.- |
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| 18:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, this: https://github.com/MobileChromeApps/mobile-chrome-apps in combination with this: https://github.com/MobileChromeApps/chrome-app-developer-tool/ is pretty cool |
| 18:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | I suspect it could be combined with cljs to great effect. |
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| --- Log closed Sat Aug 23 00:00:00 2014 |