| --- Log opened Wed Apr 16 00:00:13 2014 |
| 00:09 | <@Alek> | "I dreamt I was coding in perl. I still don't understand whether it was a nightmare or a wet dream." |
| 00:25 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:27 | <~Vornicus> | Depends: are you writing your own, or reading someone else's (aside from TW's) |
| 00:40 | <@Alek> | that was a quote. I don't perl. |
| 00:41 | <@Alek> | I might relearn purl, however. |
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| 00:42 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:54 | <@Alek> | Scripting fun. |
| 00:54 | <@Alek> | Always include a label :HELL |
| 00:54 | <@Alek> | So you can then add a line Goto Hell |
| 01:00 | <@Alek> | then save it as mastur.bat |
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| 02:49 | <@celticminstrel> | ...Activity Monitor was just reporting a process as using 1000% CPU. |
| 02:49 | <@celticminstrel> | More than that, even. |
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| 05:31 | < Harlow> | So my friend just entered a game programming competition, this is what he submitted http://clay.io/game/bleuetrouge |
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| 06:07 | <&McMartin> | Man. Things that are apparently OK in commercial BASIC programs cerca 1983: straight-up illegal code instead of comments, secure in the knowledge the PC will not be pointing at it |
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| 06:18 | <~Vornicus> | ...what |
| 06:22 | <&McMartin> | So, you've got a subroutine at line 2000 that does stuff |
| 06:22 | <&McMartin> | Sane approach A; |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | 2000 REM DO STUFF |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | 2010 {stuff happens here} |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | 2099 RETURN |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | SANE APPROACH B: |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | 1999 REM DO STUFF |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | 2000 {stuff happens here} |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | 2099 return |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | Actually published approach: |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | 1999 DO STUFF |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | 2000 {stuff happens here} |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | 2099 return |
| 06:27 | <~Vornicus> | vast insanity |
| 06:40 | | * McMartin finishes scanning through his collection of said semi-commercial BASIC games |
| 06:40 | <&McMartin> | Of them, 36 are analyzable either fully or highlighting bugs in my parser. |
| 06:40 | <&McMartin> | Eight are actually in machine language |
| 06:41 | <&McMartin> | Eight more were turned into self-extracting compressed programs by the scene between publication and me scoring copies of them. |
| 06:41 | <&McMartin> | Easy enough to undo but that's work, etc. |
| 06:41 | <&McMartin> | And one extends BASIC by hijacking the BASIC parser at the start of the program. |
| 06:42 | <&McMartin> | I can probably make the latter be parseable by special-casing it. |
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| 06:54 | <~Vornicus> | How many had that vast insanity |
| 06:55 | <&McMartin> | two. |
| 06:55 | <&McMartin> | So far |
| 06:55 | | * McMartin is decompressing the compressed ones now. |
| 07:11 | <~Vornicus> | I suspect one task for the scene would be to remove comments and Blatantly Illegal stuff so it compresses better |
| 07:12 | <~Vornicus> | Also I remember seeing at least one basic extender in compute's gazette |
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| 07:23 | <&McMartin> | Yep |
| 07:23 | <&McMartin> | All of these are indirectly from Compute's Gazette or similar magazines |
| 07:27 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, this isn't actually a BASIC extender |
| 07:28 | <&McMartin> | It's a SYS command that itself goes and calls BASIC's parsing routines so that you can put extra stuff after a SYS command |
| 07:28 | <&McMartin> | Anyway |
| 07:28 | <&McMartin> | Those eight programs have been decompressed |
| 07:29 | <&McMartin> | One of them turns out to just be a shitload of data statements that are POKED into place and then SYSed to, basically |
| 07:29 | <~Vornicus> | so... it's a command that manages to put, uh... you can use SYS on a varaible now? |
| 07:29 | <&McMartin> | SYS can take parameters this way, yeah |
| 07:29 | <&McMartin> | SYS 49152,53,47 |
| 07:29 | <&McMartin> | etc |
| 07:31 | <&McMartin> | All eight of the compressed ones parse without complaint |
| 07:32 | | * Vornicus finds himself thinking at publish-subscribe models |
| 07:33 | <&McMartin> | OK, after burning through these, it seems that my biggest flaw right now is in lexing DATA statements |
| 07:33 | <~Vornicus> | It's nice, having a subscriber that's very lightweight; you can kind of just throw text at it and it appears on the other end. But I find myself in a position where the subscriber might want to -- uh -- mangle particular published data in ways that the publisher doesn't really support. |
| 07:36 | <~Vornicus> | In this particular instance: one of the things the publisher produces is a list of options; these have to be numbered somehow, so that the option can be chosen. But the thing on the other end might be (er, almost certainly will be!) talking to a human; humans tend to dislike 0-indexed numbering and may in fact prefer 1-indexed, or lettered, options. |
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| 07:38 | <~Vornicus> | And this happens, uh, several different ways. |
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| 08:05 | <~Vornicus> | Heavier subscribers might be a good plan - it lets clients create richer callbacks without having to write their own dispatch... |
| 08:24 | <~Vornicus> | But it means providing a base to inherit from, and then every time I add another publication, I have to update all my controllers to handle it. |
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| 09:19 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 09:39 | <&McMartin> | OK, I should go to bed |
| 09:40 | <&McMartin> | I should not improve this terrible machine language program from an old Compute Gazette article |
| 09:40 | <&McMartin> | Well, maybe I should |
| 09:40 | <&McMartin> | But I shouldn't do so *right now* |
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| 13:04 | <@Azash> | https://i.imgur.com/H4YDXXL.png |
| 13:09 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, you can't be too sure!~ |
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| 13:44 | < NSGuest33629> | rargh |
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| 13:59 | <@gnolam> | extends Object implements Cloneable poisons Spock vaporizes Rock |
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| 16:29 | | * AnnoDomini gets back to fixing his Raspi after purchasing appropriate equipment. |
| 16:29 | <@AnnoDomini> | I'm using a DIN->PS2->USB setup for the keyboard, which remembers the glory days of Win95.\ |
| 16:42 | <@TheWatcher> | .... |
| 16:42 | <@TheWatcher> | What on earth for? At that point, wouldn't a cheap keyboard be little more expensive? |
| 16:43 | <@AnnoDomini> | They were out of cheap USB keyboards. |
| 16:43 | <@TheWatcher> | blegh |
| 16:43 | <@AnnoDomini> | The keyboard I had already had a DIN |
| 16:43 | <@AnnoDomini> | ->PS2 adapter, so I only had to buy the USB adapter. |
| 16:51 | <@RchrdB> | Where did you even find a DIN keyboard? |
| 16:53 | <@AnnoDomini> | In the attic. It's *my* old DIN keyboard. |
| 17:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | Ugh. I'm gonna need to reconfigure everything. |
| 17:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | Especially the web server and automounting. |
| 17:07 | <@AnnoDomini> | But this potentially can be done later, when I'm less tranquilized. |
| 17:30 | <@AnnoDomini> | Hmm. Actually, this was less painful than I remember it. |
| 17:31 | <@AnnoDomini> | I expect nginx to be hard, though. |
| 17:44 | <@celticminstrel> | I need to invert an area of the screen. |
| 18:36 | <@gnolam> | https://github.com/ajlopez/CobolScript |
| 19:08 | <@AnnoDomini> | Who knows how to install nginx? I recall getting help with that here. |
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| 19:30 | <@Syloq> | gnolam; wow...just...wow |
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| 20:53 | | * Tarinaky approves of the pre-YouTube internet being called the 'Ancient' Internet. |
| 20:53 | <@ErikMesoy> | WEBRINGS |
| 20:53 | <&McMartin> | Man, I remember those |
| 20:54 | <@Tarinaky> | Flash. |
| 20:54 | <&McMartin> | That said |
| 20:54 | <@ErikMesoy> | The great war of whether to have linear or threaded forum posts |
| 20:54 | <&McMartin> | Flash remained prevalent in the post-YouTube world |
| 20:54 | <@Tarinaky> | So did cement in the post-ancient real world. |
| 20:54 | <@ErikMesoy> | The use of "NT" (no text) in post titles to denote a post whose entire content was its title |
| 20:54 | | * McMartin would end Internet Antiquity with the rise of Google, not YouTube. |
| 20:55 | <@ErikMesoy> | Using Netscape Navigator. |
| 20:55 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: I'd call that pre classical antiquity. |
| 20:55 | <@ErikMesoy> | "Click here to break out of a frame" links on web pages which, themselves, frequently used frames. |
| 20:55 | <@ErikMesoy> | Geocities. |
| 20:56 | <@ErikMesoy> | Shitty fanfiction everywhere. |
| 20:56 | <@Azash> | Internet maturity isn't really a discrete range |
| 20:56 | <@ErikMesoy> | Rumors spreading from site to site, no wiki. |
| 20:57 | <@ErikMesoy> | Pretending to be a sysop in ancient chatrooms that had shit for credentials. |
| 20:57 | <@Tarinaky> | [Pre-classical antiquity / Pre-google] [Classical Antiquity / Albino-black Sheep] [Middle Ages / Youtube] ? |
| 20:58 | <@Azash> | If you measure internet maturity and take into account both importance and available technologies, it gets very difficult to put down specific times |
| 20:58 | <@ErikMesoy> | People who struggled greatly with "http://" at the start of links, it was so much easier to use one of those friendly websites that started with "www." |
| 20:58 | <@ErikMesoy> | Am I dating myself here? |
| 20:58 | | * McMartin was part of the September That Never Ended. |
| 20:59 | <@Tamber> | Back when it was a single digit date? :p |
| 20:59 | <@Tarinaky> | No. It always trips me up when URL detectors don't hyperlink things because they have neither http or www. at the start. |
| 20:59 | <@ErikMesoy> | MMOs small and simple enough that one dedicated person could write a comprehensive overview of every mechanic in the game; there were no wikis at this time. (Specifically I have in mind Jarulf's Guide to Diablo.) |
| 21:00 | < Hotshot[ipad]> | xD |
| 21:00 | <&McMartin> | Speaking of, GameFAQs turns out to be really old. |
| 21:00 | <@ErikMesoy> | Trainers! (In the sense of "cheat programs".) |
| 21:01 | < Hotshot[ipad]> | Still exists |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | Trainers predate The Consumer Internet Entirely. |
| 21:01 | <@ErikMesoy> | These days trainers have largely given way to aimbots and encrypted savefiles and whatnot. |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | If YouTube ends Antiquity, trainers are a paleolithic tech. |
| 21:01 | <@ErikMesoy> | At least from where I see it. |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | Well, the scene doesn't make them |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | Mostly |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | >_> |
| 21:02 | < Hotshot[ipad]> | We'll irc predates everything |
| 21:02 | | * McMartin might have had to detrain one of the old Gazette games he was trying to archive. |
| 21:02 | <@ErikMesoy> | But in Diablo, there were a dozen trainers floating around the internet, competing on user-friendly interfaces, and absurd OP toggles/checkboxes that you could tick off for infinite health, infinite mana, always illuminated complete minimap, and click-to-kill-target-character. |
| 21:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Surely not the RFCs with numbers less than the IRC one? :p |
| 21:02 | <@ErikMesoy> | Server side checks hadn't been invented, the Diablo servers accepted whatever bullshit the client asserted about characer health and mana. |
| 21:03 | <@ErikMesoy> | Sending "I have killed that character" was legit. The server would then send "You have been killed" to that character, who would die unless they had a counter-trainer. |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | I associate "trainers" with the 8-bit software pirates |
| 21:04 | <@Tarinaky> | http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/team-nchick/nostalgia-chick/36664-to p-ten-viral-videos-from-the-ancient-internet-aka-before-youtube |
| 21:05 | <@ErikMesoy> | The online Diablo culture was really weird with some of the trainers floating around. |
| 21:06 | <@ErikMesoy> | I'd be playing legit and ask someone else to cast Heal Other and they'd say "ok, have to disable my trainer" so that they could click on my character to target Heal Other without killing my character. |
| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | I can't check that link, but if Exploding Whale isn't #1 on that list they have Done It Wrong. |
| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | That was back when I got my silliness from Alert Readers of a certain nationally syndicated humor columnist for the Miami Herald. |
| 21:07 | <@ErikMesoy> | Was this before or after some optimistic people tried the Nth attempt at natural-language-parsing computers and got us the Ask Jeeves search engine? |
| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | Jeeves was the late 1990s, so, pre-Google. |
| 21:08 | | * McMartin knew several Jeevians. |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | Excuse me. "Jeeviants". |
| 21:08 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: #1 is Trogdor I think. |
| 21:08 | <@ErikMesoy> | Trogdor the Burninator! |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | ... |
| 21:08 | | * McMartin has some dates to check |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | "Not on Youtube" is not the same thing as "predates Youtube", after all |
| 21:09 | <@ErikMesoy> | "Look at the eight sample questions our parser can answer!" |
| 21:09 | <@ErikMesoy> | *asks Jeeves a question not exactly matching the syntax of the eight sample questions* |
| 21:09 | <@ErikMesoy> | *Jeeves goes completely off the rails because it does not, in fact, have anything like natural language parsing; it has something more like eight specific regexes* |
| 21:09 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: What about 'before youtube was popular enough that original content creators put their shit on their instead of running their own websites' |
| 21:10 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: That is a *very* different threshold than "pre-Youtube" |
| 21:10 | <@Tarinaky> | Before youtube was culturally relevant? |
| 21:10 | <&McMartin> | ErikMesoy: It had more than that. |
| 21:10 | <@Tarinaky> | History has different dates for different eras depending on what we're comparing :p |
| 21:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Like "When did WW2 begin?" has different answers depending on where the argument comes from :p |
| 21:11 | <@ErikMesoy> | McMartin: Yeah, but my general experience stands. |
| 21:11 | <&McMartin> | The basic tech is as you describe |
| 21:11 | <@ErikMesoy> | I could ask things like the samples and get answers to questions I didn't care about. Or I could ask my own questions and get nothing. |
| 21:11 | <&McMartin> | That was basically the entire pre-Google Internet~ |
| 21:11 | <@ErikMesoy> | nah |
| 21:11 | <@ErikMesoy> | AltaVista was pretty good |
| 21:11 | <@ErikMesoy> | Yahoo search somewhere second |
| 21:12 | <@ErikMesoy> | AskJeeves way way down the list in my experience |
| 21:12 | | * McMartin used Metacrawler |
| 21:14 | <&McMartin> | OK, YouTube is in fact newer than HL2, but it was basically never not huge |
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| 21:30 | <~Vornicus> | I don't remember what I used before google. |
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| 22:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | <@ErikMesoy> These days trainers have largely given way to aimbots and encrypted savefiles and whatnot. -- to the extent that this is true, it's true because in a lot of games you can get the same effects as a trainer with the mod/dev UI. Trainers are still extremely common for games where this is not true. |
| 22:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus, McMartin : I used Dogpile, IIRC |
| 22:29 | <~Vornicus> | ah yes, dogpile |
| 22:29 | <~Vornicus> | I remember I used to use "webcrawler" but there was a time in between that I couldn't remember. |
| 22:29 | <~Vornicus> | anyway, store time. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Apr 17 00:00:29 2014 |