| --- Log opened Tue Apr 15 00:00:57 2014 |
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| 01:18 | <@macdjord> | Tarinaky: Gravity assists from the Mun are not usually worth it when going from Kerbin to other planets. |
| 01:19 | <@Tarinaky> | macdjord: Passive or active assists we talking about? |
| 01:19 | <@Tarinaky> | Getting a Mun encounter isn't very hard. |
| 01:19 | <@macdjord> | Both. You're almost alway better off burning straite for your target. |
| 01:20 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberth_effect â you get more kinetic energy per unit delta-v when burning while at high velocities. (Just about the only part of KSP mechanics that I understand). |
| 01:21 | <@macdjord> | Basically, if you burn to hit the moon then burn again at perimun, what you gain from the gravity assist is less than what you lose from burning in the smaller gravity well of the planet. |
| 01:21 | <@Tarinaky> | RchrdB: I get that. But I don't know how that combines with slingshot maneuvers. |
| 01:21 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, I think additively, but I don't understand slingshotting. :) |
| 01:22 | <@macdjord> | Now, that said, if the timing works out so that the moon is /right there/ when you set up you burn, then by all means use a flyby to save some delta-v. |
| 01:22 | <@Tarinaky> | So I should do as big a burn at Perikerbin to get my encounter? |
| 01:22 | <@Tarinaky> | Rather than doing anything in the Solar orbit. |
| 01:23 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, I thiiiink so. I'm not sure how the Oberth effect works across different SOIs. |
| 01:23 | <@Tarinaky> | Me either :/ |
| 01:24 | <@Tarinaky> | I haven't figured out how to use extra-kerbin moon slingshots to slow down for a capture. |
| 01:24 | <@Tarinaky> | Apparently you can do that... somehow. |
| 01:24 | <@RchrdB> | All that I'm sure of reliably is that, when travelling just in Kerbin's orbit, it's cheaper to raise apoapsis by burning at periapsis all in one go than repeatedly alternating between raising periapsis and apoapsis. |
| 01:25 | <@macdjord> | Tarinaky: You will, almost always, have to do /some/ burn out in deep space, to correct for the difference in orbital planes. |
| 01:25 | <@RchrdB> | I assume that you get a similar effect with solar burns, though it takes -months- to get to one's apoapsis or periapsis. |
| 01:25 | <@RchrdB> | macdjord, good point. |
| 01:26 | <@macdjord> | But yes, rul of thumb: burn at periapsis whenever possible. (If you're doing pro/retro burns; radial and normal bunds are a different matter) |
| 01:26 | <@RchrdB> | Even if you did manage to aim sufficiently well to hit, say, Duna in just one burn from just above Kerbin's atmosphere, you'd arrive there at some hellish speed and either aerobrake or just shoot right back out of its SoI again. :) |
| 01:27 | <@Tarinaky> | I know that. I don't know how this works accross multiple SOI |
| 01:28 | <@RchrdB> | I wonder how hard it would be to get MechJe to make me a single-burn Duna interception anyway? |
| 01:28 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: an aero, oberth, retroburn is a totally valid maneuver. |
| 01:28 | <@Tarinaky> | If, you know, you really want to slow down. |
| 01:29 | <@RchrdB> | *nodnod* |
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| 01:29 | <@macdjord> | RchrdB: You can. You have to wait until the intercept point of the Hoffman trajectory is right on the Kerbin-Duna acending or decending node. |
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| 01:30 | <@RchrdB> | macdjord, *on it* or *just about to get there*? |
| 01:31 | <@macdjord> | On it. |
| 01:32 | <@macdjord> | Note: Since the Hohman trajectory is a half orbit with one end at your starting point, this will happen when Kerbin itself is on one of the nodes. |
| 01:32 | <@macdjord> | But you have to wait until you hit the node at the same time you get a transfer widow. |
| 01:34 | <@RchrdB> | Do there not exist less-efficient, degenerate paths which would hit Duna anyway? |
| 01:35 | <@Tarinaky> | Don't degenerate paths need n-body simulation? |
| 01:36 | <@RchrdB> | Does "degenerate path" mean something specific? I just mean a path that isn't the most efficient possible one. |
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| 01:37 | <@Tarinaky> | I thought you meant an orbit that degenerated over time. |
| 01:39 | <@RchrdB> | Oh. Hmm. It's probably really helpful that KSP doesn't simulate that effect. |
| 01:41 | <@macdjord> | RchrdB: Yes. |
| 01:43 | | * Reiv_ eyes the Oberth effect |
| 01:43 | < Reiv_> | Ssssooo this is kind of a horrible example but it is the closest my brain has come up with |
| 01:44 | < Reiv_> | The idea is that a rocket keeps shooting its thrust out at, say, 100m/s no matter how fast it is itself being flung |
| 01:44 | < Reiv_> | And the difference in velocity between unfired propellant and fired propellant is thus constant |
| 01:46 | < Reiv_> | But propellant moving at a high speed has more energy when it's fired, and due to the magic of E = mv^2 (or whatever the equation is), this means you're squaring a bigger number; ergo more energy is being lost by the propellant when it's fired; thus more energy is exploited by the rocket. |
| 01:46 | < Reiv_> | Of course, you had to spend that 'free' energy to get the whole shebang going faster to start with, so it's not free per se; but it means we get to use it more usefully. |
| 01:46 | <@Tarinaky> | The two equations are conservation of energy and conservation of momentum, I think. |
| 01:46 | < Reiv_> | Close enough? |
| 01:47 | <@Tarinaky> | Wait. |
| 01:47 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't remember. |
| 01:47 | <@Tarinaky> | It's been years :/ |
| 01:50 | <@macdjord> | Reiv_: A practical example. Burning to intercept Duna from Kerbin. |
| 01:51 | <@macdjord> | Imagine you burned /just enough/ to break Kerbin orbit. That throws you out to a Kerbol orbit almost identical to Kerbins. Then you have to burn to intercept Duna. |
| 01:52 | <@macdjord> | Now, alternatively, you could burn all at once. At first, it would seem like you'd need the same amount of delta-v: you need enough to break planetary orbit, plus enough to change your solar orbit, right? |
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| 01:54 | <@macdjord> | Now, the cost of the solar orbit change is constant. |
| 01:54 | <@macdjord> | But, the faster you escape Kerbin's SOI, the less time Kerbin's gravity has to slow you down. So by combining the two burns into one, your total cost is less than if you did them seperatly. |
| 01:54 | <@macdjord> | Oberth effect! |
| 01:55 | <@gnolam> | Isn't the optimal burn to do a high speed slingshot at the same time as a solar flare? That'll get you farther than anything else. You just have to keep an eye out for Peacekeepers. |
| 01:55 | <@macdjord> | Shush you. |
| 01:56 | <@Tarinaky> | You know how in Wayne's World there's a sign that says strictly no stairway to heaven? |
| 01:56 | <@Tarinaky> | "Strictly no Farscape references" |
| 01:56 | <@Tarinaky> | By order of the fake-management. |
| 01:56 | <@Tarinaky> | :P |
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| 01:58 | < Reiv_> | macdjord: Oh, so it's the "You want lots of thrust to escape gravity wells" bit? |
| 01:59 | <@macdjord> | Reiv_: It's... a math thing? The 'energy gies up with velocity squared' thing means that burning at higher speeds /has/ to take you father. This is just the mechanism, as I understand it, by which that comes about in this particular scnario. |
| 02:00 | < Reiv_> | The way you described it sounded more like the "Less time spent in gravity, the more fuel you save" one |
| 02:02 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't understand why Kerbal space program doesn't have easier to follow guides on these concepts (wait for it)... It's not rocket science :P |
| 02:02 | <@macdjord> | Yes. That is how, in this particular scenario, burning at a higher speed gets you farther. |
| 02:10 | < Reiv_> | macdjord: But there's another effect entirely in that particular example, which confounds the issue |
| 02:10 | < Reiv_> | Which is to say the faster you can get out of a gravity well, the less time you spend fighting said gravity well. |
| 02:11 | <@macdjord> | Yes. That's what I said. |
| 02:11 | < Reiv_> | arg |
| 02:11 | < Reiv_> | Right |
| 02:11 | < Reiv_> | So either /I/ am wrong, or you are answering a different question. |
| 02:12 | | * macdjord does not understand what the conflict is here? |
| 02:15 | < Reiv_> | "So, the effect is that propellant at high velocity fired from the same rocket motor will net you more energy than the same propellant fired at a standstill, then?" "Right, which is why you need to escape gravity wells as quickly as possible." |
| 02:16 | < Reiv_> | Has a similar dissonance to it as "So you need to allow for gravity when producing accurate ballistics?" "Right, which is why we rifle bullets." |
| 02:17 | < Reiv_> | Yes, the latter is something we need to do. But it does not follow the same path of thought as the initial statement, unless the initial statement itself is wrong. (The example isn't; I'm not yet confident my original is one.) |
| 02:18 | < Reiv_> | er |
| 02:18 | < Reiv_> | *(The example isn't; I'm not yet confident my original one is.) |
| 02:20 | <@macdjord> | Um. |
| 02:20 | <@macdjord> | Hmm. |
| 02:22 | <@macdjord> | You can solve the problem two different ways: In terms of delta-v, or in terms of energy expended. |
| 02:23 | <@macdjord> | In terms of energy expended, going from LKO to Duna Intercept is the same whether you do it in one burn or two. (I think.) Which means that doing the whole burn in LKO is cheaper in fuel expended, due to the E~V^2 thing. |
| 02:24 | <@macdjord> | In terms of delta-v, going from LKO to Duna Intercept is cheaper if you do it in one burn, because you waste less v fighting the gravity well the faster you leave it. |
| 02:24 | <@macdjord> | These are not mutually exclusiave. |
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| 02:42 | <@celticminstrel> | I just discovered that a C++ catch(...) block catches Objective-C exceptions. |
| 02:46 | < [R]> | That would be compiler dependant, no? |
| 02:46 | < [R]> | Or linker I guess. |
| 02:47 | <@celticminstrel> | Maybe. |
| 02:47 | <@celticminstrel> | Probably. |
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| 04:12 | < HotShot> | how big is one digit of binary? |
| 04:12 | < HotShot> | 1byte? |
| 04:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Huh? |
| 04:12 | <@celticminstrel> | What are you asking? |
| 04:13 | < HotShot> | data size |
| 04:13 | <@celticminstrel> | Data size of what exactly? |
| 04:13 | < HotShot> | 1 binary data |
| 04:13 | <@celticminstrel> | You can fit 8 binary digits into one byte. |
| 04:14 | < HotShot> | is there a smaller unit of byte? |
| 04:14 | <@celticminstrel> | Nope. |
| 04:16 | < HotShot> | bits? |
| 04:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm not really sure what you're trying to ask here. |
| 04:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | One binary definition is, by definition, one bit. |
| 04:16 | <@celticminstrel> | "bit" is actually short for "binary digit". |
| 04:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | One byte is 8 bits, at least on modern systems. |
| 04:18 | < HotShot> | so 1mb is 125kilobits |
| 04:19 | <@celticminstrel> | How do you get that? |
| 04:21 | < HotShot> | oops i meant 1kb |
| 04:21 | <@celticminstrel> | Still don't know how you got that. |
| 04:21 | < HotShot> | if 1byte = 8 bits |
| 04:22 | < HotShot> | 1000 bytes would equal 125000 bits |
| 04:22 | < HotShot> | err |
| 04:22 | <@celticminstrel> | That doesn't make any sense. |
| 04:22 | < HotShot> | nvm i confused myself |
| 04:23 | <@celticminstrel> | Also, 1kb is not necessarily 1000 bytes. Sometimes it's 1024 bytes. |
| 04:24 | <~Vornicus> | (the 1.44 MB floppy disk uses /both/ definitions of "kilo" to get 1.44 as its side) |
| 04:25 | <@celticminstrel> | What. |
| 04:30 | <~Vornicus> | it's 1440kiB |
| 04:31 | <~Vornicus> | if it used MiB it'd be 1.41 MiB; if it used decimal MB it'd be 1.47 MB |
| 04:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Odd. |
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| 06:26 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, after simplifying that maze of function calls that was the rendering sequence, the game is no longer laggy. Yay! |
| 06:27 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, how do I delete a commit without reversing the changes in it. |
| 06:27 | <@celticminstrel> | ...or I suppose I could just edit the commit message. That's probably better. |
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| 07:20 | < HotShot> | whats the service call that keeps you online? vnp? vpn? vpc? |
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| 07:28 | <@celticminstrel> | I think it's more like BNC? Not quite sure. |
| 07:30 | < HotShot> | ah yes i think it is |
| 07:30 | < HotShot> | its been a while since i've been on irc |
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| 12:28 | | * AnnoDomini finally gets to looking into what went wrong with his Raspi server. |
| 12:28 | <@AnnoDomini> | It seems that the filesystem on the SD card is corrupt. Trying to boot it yields PANIC that it could not find anything bootable on there. |
| 12:29 | <@AnnoDomini> | Trying to read the thing on this PC via an Ext reader yields the same results. |
| 12:30 | <@AnnoDomini> | Seems like I'll have to rewrite a Raspbian on it, then reconfigure the damn thing. |
| 12:33 | <@AnnoDomini> | Major problem now is finding a working USB keyboard. |
| 12:52 | <@TheWatcher> | Once you've got the card set up and working again, I'd suggest taking an image of it, so you can just slap that image back on the card if needed. |
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| 13:38 | <@Azash> | http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/lib/libssl/src/ssl/ssl_task.c.diff?r1= text&tr1=1.8&r2=text&tr2=1.9 |
| 13:51 | <@AnnoDomini> | I do not understand the notation there. |
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| 13:57 | <@Azash> | AnnoDomini: - is a removed line, + is an added line |
| 13:57 | <@Azash> | Basically they had put a break; which leaves the for, before the variable assignment |
| 13:57 | <@Azash> | Meaning the assignment never happened |
| 13:58 | <@RchrdB> | AnnoDomini, any line that doesn't start with a - or a + is surrounding context to help locate/understand the patch. |
| 14:02 | < froztbyte> | Cool diff |
| 14:03 | < froztbyte> | Aren't you glad much of your world depends on these fools |
| 14:03 | <@TheWatcher> | Totally |
| 14:03 | <@TheWatcher> | Inpires so much confidence! |
| 14:09 | < Xon> | froztbyte, yes |
| 14:10 | < Xon> | also holy fuck at that diff |
| 14:11 | < Xon> | froztbyte, nice to see openbsd is basicly taking a 2x4" to start cleaning up the code |
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| 14:16 | | * AnnoDomini frowns at this SD card. It might be damaged. |
| 14:16 | <@TheWatcher> | Xon: it's good, but it's not enough |
| 14:16 | < Xon> | yes |
| 14:23 | <@AnnoDomini> | Damn. It won't even overwrite-format. |
| 14:23 | <@TheWatcher> | That's one buggered card. |
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| 20:17 | <@celticminstrel> | Whoa, my attempt at a round rectangle isn't even convex. |
| 20:39 | | Vornicus [Vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 20:39 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 20:44 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, now it looks like a trapezoid. |
| 20:50 | | Julius is now known as AnnoDomini |
| 20:57 | <@celticminstrel> | Which is only a slight improvement. |
| 21:20 | | Derakon[AFK2] is now known as Derakon |
| 21:22 | <@celticminstrel> | Wait, wait, I just noticed the switch has no breaks. Maybe it is right. |
| 21:23 | <@celticminstrel> | After I worked it out in the graphing calcluator, at least. I doubt it was right before that. |
| 21:23 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh wait, no, never mind. |
| 21:23 | <@celticminstrel> | Sigh. |
| 21:23 | <@celticminstrel> | It had no breaks because it returned, and I had just changed that so I could debug. >_> |
| 21:35 | <@RchrdB> | Bah, why hasn't the glorious cloudfuture yet made it so that I can just push a button, pay a few quid and cause an extra CPU core and another 0.5kIOPS to wake up in a remote datacentre to speed up the slow running-website that I'm currently reading? |
| 21:36 | <&McMartin> | GLORIOUS BUTTFUTURE |
| 21:36 | <@ErikMesoy> | CLOWN COMPUTING |
| 21:37 | | * TheWatcher shudders |
| 21:38 | <@ErikMesoy> | I mean, have you seen the clown storage technologies? They have some very good compression and efficiency algorithms for fitting so much clown into a single drive. |
| 21:55 | | JackKnife [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 22:00 | <@celticminstrel> | It works! \o/ |
| 22:00 | <@RchrdB> | celticminstrel, eeeeexcellent. |
| 22:04 | | HotShot^Work [HotShot^Wor@Nightstar-v7se27.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined #code |
| 22:05 | | HotShot^Work is now known as hotshot |
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| 22:08 | | HotShot^Work is now known as hotshot |
| 22:11 | | hotshot is now known as HotShot |
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| 22:40 | | RchrdB_ [Richard@Nightstar-qe9.aug.187.81.IP] has joined #code |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: Was the trapezoid due to perspective foreshortening? >_> |
| 22:47 | <@celticminstrel> | I don't think so. |
| 22:47 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm not quite sure why I got a trapezoid, but I think my equations were all wrong. |
| 23:05 | < simon> | wouldn't it be possible to compress data more if the receiving end had large lookup tables? |
| 23:05 | <&McMartin> | simon: ISTR that this is what increasing the number after -z does in the usual compression tools |
| 23:06 | < simon> | okay. |
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| 23:16 | | Pandemic is now known as VirusJTG |
| 23:32 | | McMartin [mcmartin@Nightstar-rpcdbf.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: terminal update] |
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| 23:36 | | mode/#code [+ao McMartin McMartin] by ChanServ |
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| --- Log closed Wed Apr 16 00:00:13 2014 |