| --- Log opened Mon Apr 14 00:00:41 2014 |
| 00:20 | | * Tarinaky suddenly has a weird idea. |
| 00:20 | <@Tarinaky> | How do triangles work as cells of a game board? |
| 00:20 | <@Tarinaky> | I imagine coordinates must be hard. |
| 00:21 | < [R]> | Like hexagons do, except the hexagon cells are divided into 6 |
| 00:21 | <@celticminstrel> | I expect you'd alternate rows of up-pointing and down-pointing cells. |
| 00:23 | <@Tarinaky> | Trying to think what the advantages and disadvantages would be over squares and hexes. |
| 00:23 | <@Tarinaky> | celticminstrel: I'm not sure I understand that... wouldn't every row have triangles pointing up and down? |
| 00:23 | <&McMartin> | If so, he's looking at the columns |
| 00:24 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah, it depends. |
| 00:25 | <@celticminstrel> | If you want every row to have triangles pointing both up and down, then you'd have alternating columns of left-pointing and right-pointing triangles. |
| 00:26 | <@Tarinaky> | You made it sound like a row/column could contain triangles which all pointed in one direction uniformly |
| 00:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Which confused me because I couldn't imagine that tessalation. |
| 00:26 | <@celticminstrel> | Yes. |
| 00:26 | <@celticminstrel> | ... |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | OK, I'm imagining an actual hex grid where you then subdivide each hex into equilateral triangles. |
| 00:27 | <@celticminstrel> | There's no other way to tile triangles. |
| 00:28 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: Oh, wait. I see it now. |
| 00:28 | <@Tarinaky> | Err |
| 00:28 | <@Tarinaky> | @celtic instead |
| 00:28 | <&McMartin> | When I draw my tiling out, the triangles alternate orientation on any "step" |
| 00:30 | <@Tarinaky> | But yeah. How would a triangle map change a game like Civ? Each tile would have fewer neighbours. |
| 00:30 | <@Tarinaky> | Can't think how it'd actually appreciably affect anything though. |
| 00:31 | <~Vornicus> | Fewer, or more? |
| 00:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Defining adjacency as sharing an edge. |
| 00:31 | <~Vornicus> | There's actually 12 triangles that share a corner with any given triangle in a grid. |
| 00:32 | <~Vornicus> | (3 that share an edge, 6 that share a point and are 2 edges away, and 3 that share a point and are 3 edges away) |
| 00:32 | <~Vornicus> | I know of at least one game-oid where /edges/ of a triangular grid is used. |
| 00:34 | <@Tarinaky> | Name? |
| 00:34 | <~Vornicus> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paterson's_worms |
| 00:34 | <~Vornicus> | The reason I say "fewer, or more?" is that your typical square grid games tend to have an 8-connected topology, which is to say that squares connected by corners count as connected. |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | OK, I can see celtic's. He's wrong that there's no other way to tile triangles, as I now have two ways drawn on my sketchpad |
| 00:35 | <@Tarinaky> | Vornicus: I'm trying to think if that's an isomorphism or not. |
| 00:35 | <~Vornicus> | It's not. |
| 00:35 | <@celticminstrel> | How is there a way to tile triangles that doesn't involve pairs of triangles facing in opposite directions? |
| 00:35 | <@macdjord> | McMartin: Um. Equlateral truangles? |
| 00:35 | <&McMartin> | macdjord: Yes |
| 00:36 | <@macdjord> | Then there is only one tiling. |
| 00:36 | <~Vornicus> | There is only one such tiling. |
| 00:36 | <@celticminstrel> | You're tiling parallelograms, then dividing them along a diagonal. |
| 00:36 | <~Vornicus> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiling_by_regular_polygons |
| 00:36 | <@celticminstrel> | And parallelograms tile the same way as squares. |
| 00:37 | <@macdjord> | \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ |
| 00:37 | <@macdjord> | \\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ |
| 00:37 | <&McMartin> | You are defining "tiling" in a specific way, that I think makes celtic's layout not work |
| 00:37 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: Your statement was that in any given row xor column, the triangles all pointed the same way |
| 00:37 | <&McMartin> | That only happens if the point of one hits the middle of the edge of its neighbor |
| 00:38 | <&McMartin> | That's a different tiling from the subdivided hexgrid. |
| 00:38 | <~Vornicus> | it is, but technically now you're tiling kites. |
| 00:38 | <@celticminstrel> | No, it's the same as the subdivided hexgrid. |
| 00:38 | <&McMartin> | (which is the same as one form of subdivided parallelogram) |
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| 00:38 | <@celticminstrel> | The subdivided hexgrid does have pairs of triangles pointing in opposite directions. |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | Vorn: Is that at me? |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | I don't see how the triangular tiling isn't the subdivided hexgrid, as I can draw the hexes on it and said hexes must be equilateral |
| 00:39 | <@celticminstrel> | I suppose you're right, though. Since it's essentially tiling parallelograms, you could arrange for the points of the triangles to not all meet. |
| 00:39 | <~Vornicus> | yeah. |
| 00:40 | <@celticminstrel> | Then again, I think tesselation generally implies the vertices meet. |
| 00:40 | <&McMartin> | To get the case where each column is all up-pointing or all down-pointing, take every other row and translate them to the right by .5 units. |
| 00:40 | <&McMartin> | Or to the left. Yay infinities! |
| 00:40 | <@celticminstrel> | You don't need to do that. They already have that property. |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | I don't see it. |
| 00:42 | <@celticminstrel> | You're claiming the subdivided hexagon doesn't have the alternating directions, right? |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | If I start at the center of any triangle and move straight up or down to the next center of a triangle, that triangle is oriented the opposite direction to me. |
| 00:43 | <&McMartin> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tiling_Regular_3-6_Triangular.svg |
| 00:43 | <@celticminstrel> | But if you move sideways along the base, you always touch triangles pointing the same direction. |
| 00:44 | <@celticminstrel> | Not counting the vertex. |
| 00:44 | <&McMartin> | "the same" -> "both directions" |
| 00:44 | <@celticminstrel> | Huh? |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | If I'm on an edge, I'm between two triangles of opposite orientation |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | If I'm moving from vertex to vertex, I am precisely moving space to space on a hex grid |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | No, that is not true |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | Belay that last comment |
| 00:46 | | * Tarinaky is suddenly surprised to notice the webpage she was reading for ideas was written by Vornicus all along :P |
| 00:46 | <~Vornicus> | ...wait, which one |
| 00:47 | <@Tarinaky> | (actually you just have a credit, it's got multiple contributors) |
| 00:47 | <@Tarinaky> | http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?HexGridSphere |
| 00:47 | <~Vornicus> | oh shit, man |
| 00:47 | <~Vornicus> | That's like 12, 13 years old |
| 00:48 | <~Vornicus> | Let me, um, present you with something a little more solid! |
| 00:49 | <@Tarinaky> | I was actually looking for 2D grid layouts that'd approximate the surface of a sphere... rather than actually... fit together. |
| 00:49 | <@Tarinaky> | i.e. tapering at either end. |
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| 00:51 | <~Vornicus> | This is kind of a fluffy description. |
| 00:51 | <@Tarinaky> | It's 1am. I have a fluffy idea in my head. |
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| 00:55 | <~Vornicus> | There are of course ways of stretching (possibly several) square grids over a sphere; gall-peters is one, the projection I made once is another, then there's the considerably more complicated HealPIX. |
| 01:08 | <@Tarinaky> | This is what is in my head atm: http://cosketch.com/Saved/pHFl2YH3 |
| 01:09 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not sure what's wrong with it though. Aside from not, actually, forming a sphere. |
| 01:11 | <~Vornicus> | https://www.flickr.com/photos/7861878@N06/3556592941/in/photostream/ |
| 01:12 | <@Tarinaky> | Geodeisics are pretty hard though. |
| 01:12 | <~Vornicus> | Need 12 pentagons to make a hexagonal tiling cover the sphere. |
| 01:13 | <&McMartin> | fútbol |
| 01:14 | <@celticminstrel> | Isn't that because of the dodecahedron? |
| 01:14 | <@Tarinaky> | I should clarify by 'what's wrong with it' I mean what's unbalanced/game breaking. |
| 01:14 | <@Tarinaky> | How is it game-able. |
| 01:15 | <~Vornicus> | Not terribly much. The big one, when I sat down and thought about it, was that cities (in the civ sense of they cover a region within a radius of the center) are slightly smaller near the pentagons |
| 01:15 | <@Tarinaky> | I meant with my thing. |
| 01:16 | <~Vornicus> | Oh. Idunno. |
| 01:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Geodeisics have the flaw that they're hard. Which is bad enough :P |
| 01:17 | <~Vornicus> | hexagons are pretty tried-and-true |
| 01:19 | | * Reiv_ ponders. Decides to, one day, create a game that uses a d20 as its map. |
| 01:19 | | * Vornicus gives Reiv... Hunt The Wumpus. |
| 01:20 | < Reiv_> | What is a wumpus and how do I hunt it? |
| 01:20 | <@Tarinaky> | Reiv_: That's the degenerate case where you have 12 pentagons and no hexagons I think. |
| 01:20 | < Reiv_> | Nnno, that would be a d12 |
| 01:20 | < Reiv_> | Though that could be equally interesting in its own special little way. |
| 01:21 | <~Vornicus> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt_the_Wumpus |
| 01:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Reiv_: Depends whether you use the faces or the vertexes :P |
| 01:22 | < Reiv_> | ... aw crud, now I have an Idea For A Game, and it is bonafide and simple enough to actually be made. |
| 01:22 | | * Reiv_ ponders. I should probably figure out how to make a d12 in Unity, I guess. |
| 01:22 | < Reiv_> | Or possibly UnReal! It is exciting having options isn't it. |
| 01:23 | < Reiv_> | Though, uh, Unity is better 'cuz it's free-free until you're doing something serious. |
| 01:23 | < Reiv_> | hm. |
| 01:23 | < Reiv_> | ... and combat is based on d12 rolls. Of course. |
| 01:24 | | * Reiv_ muses. |
| 01:28 | <@Tarinaky> | I know someone made a magnetised geodeisic settlers of catan globe. |
| 01:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Which was pretty cool. |
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| 02:23 | <~Vornicus> | though it annoyed me because the map was kinda hardwired. Not that much can be done re that |
| 02:24 | < Reiv_> | hardwired? |
| 02:26 | <~Vornicus> | Like the pieces were put in and you couldn't really move them |
| 02:30 | < Reiv_> | Aah. |
| 02:31 | | * Reiv_ ponders, giggles. The game has a name. How to spin it? |
| 02:31 | < Reiv_> | DeTwelve. DeeTwelve. DieTwelve. ... Twelve no longer looks like a word. ;_; |
| 02:33 | <@macdjord> | Dwelve. |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | Pokethulhu referred to both d12s and their equivalent of Pokeballs as Shining Dodecahedrons. |
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| 02:44 | | * Reiv_ ponders how much pain he's going to be in for when he comes up with the idea of ... oh god dodecahedron pathfinding aaaa |
| 02:45 | < Reiv_> | I REGRET EVERYTHING |
| 02:47 | < Reiv_> | (And I haven't even written a line of code yet) |
| 02:56 | <~Vornicus> | ...it's not that hard |
| 03:00 | < Reiv_> | I can't even make a convinient grid reference ;_; |
| 03:02 | <~Vornicus> | behold, the might of graph theory |
| 03:04 | < Reiv_> | There is a way to tell a computer how to Pentagon? |
| 03:08 | <~Vornicus> | There's a way to tell a computer how to everything. |
| 03:09 | <@macdjord> | Reiv_: There are only 12 nodes. The distances between each one and its neighbours are the same. So the shortest path is the one with the fewest hops. There are many tools for finding the shortest path between two nodes on a graph. |
| 03:09 | <@Azash> | macdjord: The correct solution is to independently reinvent A* |
| 03:10 | <@macdjord> | Shush you. |
| 03:11 | < Reiv_> | I actually know A* |
| 03:11 | < Reiv_> | Hm, this will have, at present, 6 points per face, with 5 neighbours per face, with 12 faces. |
| 03:12 | < Reiv_> | Totally easy. |
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| 21:37 | <@Azash> | http://i.imgur.com/ICTw7k8.png |
| 21:39 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh...kay. |
| 21:41 | <@Azash> | https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/es-ES/8da87c03-ca28-4d12-b3b0-68cfdf d3fc74/how-to-find-wsus-server-in-unknown-environment?forum=winserverwsus |
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| 23:01 | <@Tarinaky> | Orbital mechanics: I'm not sure when to use a gravity assisted burn in KSP. |
| 23:01 | <@Tarinaky> | I get when to use a gravity sling-shot and the position of the moon. |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | http://dankaminsky.com/2014/04/10/heartbleed/ |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | An interesting angle |
| 23:01 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm under the impression I can get even more delta-V if I burn at the Munar periapse as well. |
| 23:02 | <@Tarinaky> | But I'm not entirely sure if it's helping or hindering. |
| 23:10 | | * Tarinaky also wishes there was a faster time accellerate because this mission to Jool is taking forever. |
| 23:19 | <@gnolam> | http://twitter.com/nicomuhly/status/455685992666890240/photo/1 |
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| --- Log closed Tue Apr 15 00:00:57 2014 |