| --- Log opened Sat Apr 05 00:00:47 2014 |
| 00:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | That is an implementation detail which is not an excuse for making the error message misleading. |
| 00:13 | <@RchrdB> | Yeah, maybe message really ought to say "has neither __contains__ nor __iter__", or something else to that effect. |
| 00:13 | <&McMartin> | "Error: Object X does not implement __constains__" is indeed also misleading since it's legal not to |
| 00:16 | <@RchrdB> | I wonder what the rationale for all of the method names being __underscored__ like that was, anyway? |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | It's how the C library indicates "I am internal" |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | And in theory "don't use me directly" but in practice "USE THIS FUCKING EVERYWHERE" |
| 00:18 | <@RchrdB> | Sure, I know that, and IMO __dunder__ is a great convention for private methods |
| 00:19 | <@RchrdB> | It's not immediately obvious though that "for ... in ..." should have been written as ".__iter__()" instead of ".iter()", though. |
| 00:19 | | * McMartin revisits King James Programming |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | "the LORD preserve knowledge, and he overthroweth the words of Alan Perlis, âSyntactic sugar causes cancer of the semicolon.â " |
| 00:20 | <@RchrdB> | I guess it's sort of necessary to have *some* kind of namespacing of special methods for whenever you want to add *more* of them. e.g. __enter__() and __exit__() on context managers. |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | "we have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that we are forced to admit time into our computational models" is almost literally Chapter 3 of SICP |
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| 01:02 | <@RchrdB> | <secret nature="terrible">I should really read all of SICP myself instead of just trying to trick other people into doing so all the time.</secret> ¬_¬ |
| 01:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: 'error: object X is not iterable and does not implement __contains__' |
| 01:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | RchrdB: the true terror is your use of XML~ |
| 01:05 | <@RchrdB> | (with-nature "terrible" (secret "I should really read all of SICP myself instead of just trying to trick other people into doing so all the time.")) |
| 01:06 | <@RchrdB> | secret(S),terrible(S),content(S, "I should really read all of SICP myself..."); |
| 01:08 | | macdjord|wurk is now known as macdjord |
| 01:08 | <&McMartin> | Reading *all* of SICP is less critical; the final chapter on "register machines" is complicated enough to be head-hurty and abstract enough to not actually be very useful |
| 01:13 | <@RchrdB> | Dammit, "TypeError: can't set attributes of built-in/extension type 'function'" |
| 01:14 | <@RchrdB> | I wanted to stick a __contains__ on functions to make 1-arity predicates work with "in". :| |
| 01:41 | <@celticminstrel> | What's that third one, RchrdB? |
| 01:42 | <@celticminstrel> | I thought you could set attributes on functions... |
| 01:57 | <@RchrdB> | celticminstrel, predicate(Variable1, Variable2). ; is Prolog's syntax. |
| 01:57 | <@RchrdB> | Also Erlang's, more or less, I think because of hysterical raisins. |
| 02:00 | <@RchrdB> | celticminstrel, I *can* set properties on individual functions, but I wanted to add a descriptor to the function type object so that it would show up on all functions. :| |
| 02:00 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 02:02 | <@RchrdB> | You know how in Javascript you can monkey-patch other peoples' classes by altering the properties of their prototypes? The equivalent works just fine in Python too, though not for classes defined in C code. :| |
| 02:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah, I know about that in JavaScript. Even works for the built-in classes, more or less. |
| 02:03 | <@RchrdB> | Indeed. It works just fine for *pure* Python, but most of the builtin classes are implemented in C and won't let you. |
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| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | Vorn: You were out when I announced this early this morning, but: I cracked the C64 floating point format |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | It's now totally feasible to use the BASIC evaluation vectors to compile formula translators |
| 04:15 | <&McMartin> | http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/630 |
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| 04:24 | | * thalass ponders an open source electronic voting system |
| 04:24 | <@RchrdB> | McMartin, what's that format? 8 bits of exponent, offset from zero, 31 bits of mantissa with the sign bit in between the exp and mantissa? |
| 04:25 | <&McMartin> | RchrdB: Yeah, with 0 0 0 0 0 as zero and 129 as the encoding for 2^0 |
| 04:25 | <@RchrdB> | (+ exponent 129) is a bit odd. IEEE754 puts the offset exactly in the centre. |
| 04:26 | <&McMartin> | There are two formats used, actually. This is the "at rest" format |
| 04:26 | <@RchrdB> | Interesting! That'll be the first 40-bit floating point format that I've heard of. |
| 04:26 | | * RchrdB -> slep. |
| 04:26 | <&McMartin> | The Floating Point Accumulator is a couple more bytes and has a bunch of redundancy |
| 04:26 | <&McMartin> | Mainly I think to make certain operations much faster |
| 04:27 | <@macdjord> | McMartin: 'call-with-cthulhu-invocation'? |
| 04:28 | <&McMartin> | call-with-current-continuation, one of the more eldritch control constructs. |
| 04:30 | <&McMartin> | It's roughly the generalization of setjmp/longjmp in a world where all captured execution contexts last forever until garbage collected, and as a result it is simultaneously do-while, exceptions, co-routines, and an intermediate format you can compile arbitrary code to. |
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| 04:33 | <@macdjord> | So... it... auto-loops a function? With built-in tail-recursion? |
| 04:34 | <&McMartin> | No, because you can also store it in a global variable, return from that function, and then invoke it later to go back where you were. |
| 04:34 | <&McMartin> | Repeatedly |
| 04:34 | <&McMartin> | I think of it as a tail-call that replaces the entire call stack instead of just the last stack frame as a tail-call would. |
| 04:35 | <@macdjord> | I... glurg. |
| 04:35 | <&McMartin> | But the case where you're inside one function and looping until you're done is common enough that there's a syntax for just doing that, and it's basically clojure's loop-recur |
| 04:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | macdjord: basically, (call/cc f) calls f with a 'continuation'. Returning from f returns from call/cc. |
| 04:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | Calling the continuation also returns from call/cc. |
| 04:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | You can save the continuation somewhere and do this as many times as you want. |
| 04:36 | <&McMartin> | That explanation never helped me much because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to return from a function whose caller returned three days ago~ |
| 04:36 | <@macdjord> | ... this sound even /more/ spagetti than GOTO. |
| 04:36 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, here's the fully local, macroed away version that's actually easy |
| 04:37 | <&McMartin> | (define (fact n) (let loop ((r 1) (i 1)) (if (> i n) r (loop (* r i) (+ i 1))))) |
| 04:37 | <~Vornicus> | mcm: holy shit |
| 04:37 | <&McMartin> | macdjord: When you're using it as a compilation target, you are in fact appending every machine instruction with a possibly nondeterministic GOTO. |
| 04:37 | <&McMartin> | But then, we call those things "control flow graphs" |
| 04:37 | <~Vornicus> | (re floating point format) |
| 04:38 | <&McMartin> | (I figured you were not impressed with factorial) |
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| 04:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I found out about call/cc after coroutines, and found that it made slightly more sense if envisioned as being able to repeatedly resume a coroutine at the same yield point - i.e. (resume co) does not mutate co and can be repeated. |
| 04:43 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
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| 05:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Hm, I was going to use a std::set because it automatically handles duplicates, but then I remembered I need to preserve insertion order... |
| 05:44 | < [R]> | By "handles duplicates" did you mean it deduplicates? |
| 05:44 | <@celticminstrel> | More or less? I don't want to add elements if they're already there. |
| 05:45 | < [R]> | Cause I'm pretty sure the insertion order requirement will fail if you implement deduplication. |
| 05:45 | <@celticminstrel> | I don't see how? |
| 05:45 | <@celticminstrel> | Scan the list/vector for it, don't add it if found. |
| 05:46 | < [R]> | If you have 1 2 5 3 4 2 3... |
| 05:46 | < [R]> | If you want, you could use a set for a list of keys and use a map/hashtable thing? (I can't remember what the STL's offerings are ATM) |
| 05:47 | < [R]> | Err |
| 05:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Eh, the original vector should work. |
| 05:48 | < [R]> | Basically one for a list list of the elements that keeps the insertion order, and the storage structure that handles the dedupe. |
| 05:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Hm. |
| 05:48 | <@celticminstrel> | I dunno if I want to have two copies of everything. |
| 05:48 | < [R]> | The order thing is just the list of keys... |
| 05:49 | < [R]> | Unless you're storing ints |
| 05:49 | | * [R] has been assuming you're storing data structures of some sort |
| 05:49 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm storing objects. Which contain strings and integers. |
| 05:50 | <@celticminstrel> | I was going to defined a less than operator and throw them in a set, but that'll sort them by the key values. |
| 05:50 | <@celticminstrel> | Because it's a tree set. |
| 05:50 | <@celticminstrel> | (And if I used a hash set it'd scramble the order.) |
| 05:50 | <@celticminstrel> | (Or sort them by the hash, I suppose.) |
| 05:51 | <@celticminstrel> | (Which doesn't help.) |
| 05:51 | <@celticminstrel> | You're suggesting I keep a set containing just a key generated from the object? |
| 05:52 | <@celticminstrel> | So basically, all this means is that, instead of running std::find each time I want to add something, I look it up in the set? |
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| 05:52 | <@celticminstrel> | It seems basically the same as what was there before I thought of changing it to a set, except maybe faster. |
| 05:52 | < [R]> | Well any container that keeps the insertion order (unless you have that covered already, in which case, any one that does dedupe for you somehow) |
| 05:53 | < [R]> | Oh right, lower level stuff |
| 05:53 | <@celticminstrel> | Lower level stuff/ |
| 05:53 | <@celticminstrel> | ^? |
| 05:54 | < [R]> | (Used to HLLs where what I'm suggesting is a bit more sane) |
| 05:54 | <@celticminstrel> | C++ isn't a high level language? |
| 05:54 | < [R]> | No |
| 05:54 | <@celticminstrel> | <_< |
| 05:54 | <@celticminstrel> | I guess for now I'll just use std::find to make sure it's not already there. |
| 05:55 | <@celticminstrel> | This is definitely not a good time to be thinking about optimization. |
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| 05:57 | < [R]> | IMO if you can fuckup memory allocation yourself (IE it's not a bug in the VM/interpreter/compiler), it's not an HLL. |
| 05:58 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 05:59 | < [R]> | Yes, there a libraries to fix that... but there are libraries to do the same for C |
| 06:00 | <&McMartin> | You can fuck up memory allocation in Java. |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | By leaving dangling references you didn't intend, etc. |
| 06:01 | | * McMartin tends to think of a language as high-level if it has its own runtime. |
| 06:01 | < [R]> | Runtime == VM/interpreter? |
| 06:01 | <@celticminstrel> | I fully expect runtime errors once I get this to link. |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | No, like, libc. |
| 06:01 | < [R]> | O.o |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | HLL is anything that isn't an assembler, basically, and some assemblers are borderline. |
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| 06:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Which might actually be this weekend, since there were only 18 source files left to get through a couple attempts back. |
| 06:03 | <@celticminstrel> | Though some of those source files have a lot of errors, so maybe not. |
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| 12:28 | < AnnoDomini> | Are there any extant examples of moons having their own moons? |
| 12:42 | < Syk> | AnnoDomini: probably not |
| 12:42 | < Syk> | AnnoDomini: although, define 'moon' |
| 12:42 | < AnnoDomini> | A celestial body orbiting a celestial body orbiting a star. |
| 12:43 | < Syk> | that's just a regular moon |
| 12:43 | < Syk> | you mean a body orbiting a body orbiting a body orbiting a star? |
| 12:43 | < AnnoDomini> | Yes. |
| 12:43 | < Syk> | right |
| 12:44 | <@Tamber> | Yo dawg, I heard you liked moons... >_> |
| 12:46 | | * AnnoDomini imagines a moon inside of a moon. |
| 12:47 | <&McMartin> | So you can moon while you moon? |
| 12:47 | < AnnoDomini> | I'd rather not, thanks. |
| 12:48 | <@Tamber> | So you can orbit while you orbit while you orbit. |
| 12:48 | < Syk> | wheeeeee |
| 13:46 | < AnnoDomini> | C++ with Qt. Is it possible to refer to the outer object from an inner object? I struggle to define what I mean. |
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| 13:51 | < AnnoDomini> | Sort of like "this" refers to the current object in Java. But I'd like to determine what object the current object is part of and access that parent object's properties. |
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| 14:04 | <@gnolam> | ::parentWidget() |
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| 14:05 | < AnnoDomini> | Is that only for Widgets or for arbitrary classes and structs I make too? |
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| 14:20 | | * AnnoDomini is struck that he knows what the moons of Mars are called because he played Doom. |
| 14:28 | <@TheWatcher> | well hey, at least you /know/, which is more than can be said for most |
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| 15:41 | <&McMartin> | AnnoDomini: Non-widgets don't have parents; the parent-child relationship is part of being in a GUI. |
| 15:41 | < AnnoDomini> | OK. |
| 16:02 | < AnnoDomini> | Using the Qt form designer right now seems like a logic puzzle. I had to come up with an exact series of drag-and-drop operations to get the nested layout I want. |
| 16:05 | <@macdjord|slep> | <Syk> you mean a body orbiting a body orbiting a body orbiting a star? |
| 16:05 | <@macdjord|slep> | Binary star systems. |
| 16:05 | <@macdjord|slep> | You have moons, that orbit planets, that orbit a small star, that orbits a larger star. |
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| 16:09 | <@macdjord> | AnnoDomini: Could be worse. Could be you know the moons of Mars because they are the names of Sailor Mars's crows. <_< |
| 16:18 | < AnnoDomini> | She has crows? |
| 16:24 | <@macdjord> | ... yes. A whole flock. But she has two of particular intelligence which she keeps as pets, named Deimos and Phobos. |
| 16:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Possibly only in the manga? |
| 16:25 | <@macdjord> | Perhaps? My memories of the show are... distant. |
| 16:26 | <@celticminstrel> | Probably better that way. |
| 16:27 | | * McMartin fiddles with Commodore BASIC |
| 16:27 | <@macdjord> | Actually, from what I've heard, the original version (subbed) is actually pretty good. It was the butchered English dub that really sucked. |
| 16:27 | <&McMartin> | This is such a pile of inconsistency |
| 16:27 | <&McMartin> | Nonlocal NEXT/RETURN, but no computed GOTO or GOSUB |
| 16:28 | <@celticminstrel> | I vaguely recall not liking it that much, but maybe that's just me. |
| 16:52 | | * AnnoDomini runs the Debian dual-boot for the first time in months. |
| 16:52 | < AnnoDomini> | For some reason, trying to install the Perl MT PRNG results in a proposed solution of uninstalling half of what's installed. |
| 16:54 | < AnnoDomini> | 486 MB to be freed! Except I notice that useful stuff like, say Open Office, and what appears to be half of Gnome, will be uninsalled. |
| 16:54 | < AnnoDomini> | +t |
| 16:57 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm going to do that once I finish syncing my Dropbox, just to see what happens. |
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| 18:35 | | * AnnoDomini finds out what happens: The OS uninstalled itself. |
| 18:44 | <@macdjord> | AnnoDomini: Oops? |
| 18:44 | <@macdjord> | Hey, at least it /has/ that capacity. Unlike some OSes. |
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| 19:21 | < AnnoDomini> | TheWatcher: How do I install Perl libraries under Cygwin? |
| 19:48 | < AnnoDomini> | What do I do about this? http://pastie.org/8996851 |
| 19:53 | | * AnnoDomini solves it. |
| 19:53 | < AnnoDomini> | The makefile wanted to run "gcc-4" and "g++-4" instead of "gcc" and "g++". |
| 19:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | AnnoDomini: re-run the Cygwin installer, and select the libraries you want installed |
| 19:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | Alternately, re-run the installer, install CPAN, and use that |
| 19:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | The Cygwin installer is also the updater and package manager. |
| 19:54 | < AnnoDomini> | Yeah, I tried CPAN first, found out that I have no build essentials installed, then used the installer to install that. |
| 19:55 | < AnnoDomini> | Then I ran into the problem of the bloody makefile having wrong command names. |
| 20:00 | | * AnnoDomini finds that make test on Net::Ping::External fails. |
| 20:00 | | * AnnoDomini goes ahead straight to make install. |
| 20:00 | < AnnoDomini> | This was quite a bit of yak shaving to be able to develop my bot. |
| 20:03 | <@gnolam> | IRC bot? |
| 20:03 | < AnnoDomini> | Yes. |
| 20:03 | <@gnolam> | Not to be That Guy, but if you're using C/C++ for it, you're using the wrong language. |
| 20:04 | < AnnoDomini> | Perl, actually. |
| 20:04 | <@gnolam> | Ah. |
| 20:05 | < AnnoDomini> | But yes, I needed a lot of somewhat unrelated things to be able to run it. |
| 20:20 | <@ErikMesoy> | I think I have been doing poor coding practice: using patterns like "try: DoThingWith(x) except: DoThingWith(defaultvalue)" to handle all errors when I should be using checks like like "if x is not null" and "if x exists" and "if len(x) >1" to handle several-but-not-all errors. |
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| 21:28 | < AnnoDomini> | If \x02 is the code for the bolding character, what's the foreground/background reversing code? |
| 21:30 | <@celticminstrel> | ^V |
| 21:33 | < AnnoDomini> | Thanks. |
| 21:33 | < AnnoDomini> | How do I represent an either-or in bracket code in syntax definitions? I mean, I want to say "choose one of these but not both". |
| 21:33 | <@celticminstrel> | In what now? |
| 21:34 | <@celticminstrel> | If you're talking about defining a grammar, it's probably | |
| 21:34 | < AnnoDomini> | You know, <required> [optional] |
| 21:34 | < AnnoDomini> | OK, thanks. That works. |
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| 23:25 | | iospace is now known as io\BADGERS |
| 23:44 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-3tp.juj.184.203.IP] has joined #code |
| 23:44 | | mode/#code [+o Orthia] by ChanServ |
| --- Log closed Sun Apr 06 00:00:03 2014 |