| --- Log opened Sun Feb 23 00:00:37 2014 |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | I don't feel like playing videogames, so clearly I should write programs. |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | 06:55 < abudhabi_> No, as in I have all major browsers except IE installed. I just need to take a bit to personalize. |
| 00:25 | <&McMartin> | Funny story: when I did my DHTML experiments awhile back, I fucked something up in a way that only IE10 caught. |
| 00:25 | <&McMartin> | But in lifetime first for me, this is because IE was being more strict. |
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| 00:27 | <@Namegduf> | McMartin: A common case of that is trailing commas in JSON. |
| 00:27 | <@Namegduf> | IE won't accept them, everything else rejects them. |
| 00:27 | <@Namegduf> | Er, accepts them. |
| 00:27 | <@Namegduf> | By the standard, they're not allowed. |
| 00:28 | <&McMartin> | IIRC I had used some DHTML tags that the doctype I had carelessly copypasted in up top did not permit. |
| 00:38 | | * Vornicus should actually semi-auto-generate the json he needs for one of his projects... |
| 00:46 | <@Orthia> | json? |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | JSON: Javascript Object Notation, a subset of Javascript used to represent semistructured data. |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | Actually Very Nice Overall |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | Also pretty simple. I rolled my own JSON parser for Monocle and it's only a few hundred lines. |
| 00:48 | <@Namegduf> | It's not excessively complex, number of rules is relatively short, few spiders or surprisingly complex bits. |
| 00:48 | <@Namegduf> | The only real ugly thing I know of is the Unicode escape notication. |
| 00:48 | <@Namegduf> | *notation |
| 00:49 | <@Namegduf> | Where instead of writing a codepoint in the escape you write a UTF-16 thing, which is sometimes the same and sometimes requires you to write it as a surrogate pair. |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | "Sometimes" = "when you need to encode a string that has characters from the astral planes in it" |
| 00:50 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah. |
| 00:50 | <@Namegduf> | Or parse arbitrary text which may contain them. |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | So yes, representing Oracle Bone Script in JSON is kind of obnoxious in it. |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | I suppose that kind of depends on platform~ |
| 00:50 | <@Namegduf> | There was some complaint about Bitlbee's Twitter support not working right because they were trying to subscribe to a Twitter account which tweets odd unicode characters. |
| 00:51 | <@Namegduf> | And it was because the underlying library they were using for JSON decoding shit itself on surrogate pairs. |
| 00:51 | <@Namegduf> | And Twitter's API is JSON. |
| 00:51 | <@Namegduf> | So yeah, it's an ugliness you need to worry about at implementation time of a parser. |
| 00:52 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:52 | <@TheWatcher> | Fuckin character encodings |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | If you're taking external data, anyway. |
| 00:52 | <@Namegduf> | Writing a parser and assuming it is only ever going to deal with internal data which is going to never change lets you parse XML with regexes. |
| 00:53 | <@Namegduf> | XD |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | So it does, which is a point in its favor~ |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | Namegduf: Anyway, the "kind of depends on platform" is because Java and Win32 have 16-bit wide characters and explicitly specify UTF-16, so if you mimic the surrogate pairs exactly you get the correct result |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | (I in fact ran into this yesterday at work, as a Windows/Mac discrepancy >_<) |
| 00:53 | <@Namegduf> | McMartin: That assumes you're using their characters as your internal encoding, which as far as I've seen is surprisingly uncommon for the Win32 case. |
| 00:53 | <@Namegduf> | People don't use wchar much. |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | wchar_t, indeed not |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | WCHAR *, anyone "correctly" doing Windows-specific programming should be using that, through a macro if nothing else |
| 00:54 | <@Namegduf> | Using it somewhere to speak to Windows? Maybe. |
| 00:54 | <@Namegduf> | But a fair bit of stuff seems to just convert its actual internal format to speak to Windows. |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. The case specifically that came up at work was parsing a .reg file on a Mac. |
| 00:55 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | That *will* pwn you if you're using UCS4 or UTF-8 and don't correctly handle surrogate pairs, because Win32 will happily hand them to you. |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | (And indeed REG_SZ types are specified to use them for the astral) |
| 00:55 | <@Namegduf> | Well, you ought to be leaning on a standard converter there. |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | Yep, which it does provide, for UTF-8 |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | Not for UCS-4 though. |
| 00:56 | <@Namegduf> | What is surprising is that you can't, writing a JSON decoder, take \u<number> and feed it into "take <number> as codepoint and give me the right characters in my internal encoding for that codepoint" |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | Not that a UTF16LE<->UCS-4 conversion is *difficult*, mind you, it's about seven lines of code either way. |
| 00:56 | <@Namegduf> | Because \u<number> is occasionally a surrogate pair instead. |
| 00:56 | <@Namegduf> | Er, half of one, rather. |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | For added fun, the UTF-16 surrogates are totally legal codepoints, just ones that the Consortium guarantees will never have characters assigned |
| 00:57 | <@Namegduf> | Instead you need to be able to manage pairs of numbers, interpret as a little snippet of UTF-16, then decode. |
| 00:57 | <@Namegduf> | Or convert, rather. |
| 00:57 | <@Namegduf> | You need to do a character-by-character number->UTF-16 bytes->your format conversion, rather than a number->codepoint in your format conversion. |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | They aren't like UTF-8 interstitial bytes. So UTF-8 is in fact allowed to encode those surrogate pairs in its own encoding. They won't *mean* anything, but it's allowed to do so. |
| 00:58 | <@Namegduf> | I suspect that's what happens and causes the terrible bugs. |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | Pretty much |
| 00:59 | <@Namegduf> | They take it as \u<codepoint> rather than \u<UTF-16 thing> and it causes bugs. |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | Now in the work case, we realized that the Mac processing of the .reg files was actually just to hand it back to a Windows machine again in the end, so there's no reason to not just treat the conversion from unsigned short to wchar_t as a widening conversion and then not exploit it. |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | Yup |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | Monocle does not, at present, care |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | Because it's using JSON to specify relationships between sprites and objects and collisions and stuff |
| 00:59 | <@Namegduf> | If it ever does care, of course, no one will ever think to go fix the JSON library. |
| 00:59 | <@Namegduf> | XD |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | So I can say "client applications do not get to use stuff outside of the BMP in identifier names" |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | Namegduf: Aha! But I can document it! |
| 01:00 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, that is probably the best approach. |
| 01:00 | <@Namegduf> | HAVE you documented it? |
| 01:00 | <@Namegduf> | Before this conversation? XD |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | It doesn't work yet, so no! |
| 01:00 | <@Namegduf> | Were you going to? XD |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | Today's task is to actually make the collision stuff work |
| 01:01 | <@Namegduf> | I do think it is the only real instance of an annoyance like that in JSON, though. |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | It might have come to me spontaneously, but now we'll never know~ |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | That annoyance is not unique to JSOn. |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | That "[1, 2, 3,]" is illegal is also considered an annoyance as well |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | I go back and forth on that one >_> |
| 01:02 | <@Namegduf> | It doesn't matter much for machine<->machine stuff. |
| 01:02 | <@Namegduf> | But fair, yeah. |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | Well, the issue here is that I'm using JSON basically as my spec format |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | And the astral thing might be an issue, come to think of it, for pathnames. |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | But "locales and pathnames" are a cavern of endless spiders. |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | On Windows, I can just say "It's UTF16LE, preserve surrogates as specified, done" |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | On Mac I can say "Turn this UCS4 string to System Local Encoding" |
| 01:04 | <@Namegduf> | I have to fix a stupid encoding bug in Bitlbee. |
| 01:04 | <&McMartin> | On Linux I have to guess whether or not this terminal has correctly set the system's encoding process |
| 01:04 | <@Namegduf> | It doens't deal with encoding at all for oscar/AIM groupchat messages. |
| 01:04 | <@Namegduf> | OSCAR switches encoding on a message by message basis because why the hell not |
| 01:04 | <&McMartin> | I'm strongly inclined to just say "you know what? filenames are something you *also* specify. Those have to be 7-bit ASCII, die in a fire." |
| 01:04 | <@Namegduf> | XD |
| 01:05 | <@Namegduf> | And basically Bitlbee skips the "extract encoding information and try to convert" step for group messages. |
| 01:05 | | * McMartin nods |
| 01:06 | <@Namegduf> | The preference is to use UTF-16BE as the communication format for anything outside of the Windows codepage. |
| 01:06 | <@Namegduf> | So they just come out as blank lines because they hit the initial NUL. |
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| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | https://github.com/michaelcmartin/monocle/blob/master/demo/resources/earthball.j son |
| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | This is what I'm using JSON for |
| 01:07 | <@Namegduf> | I figure I can either fix it so my conversations with people will no longer be disrupted, or wait until time travel is invented and go back and kill everyone who worked for AOL, which I feel is an appropriate reaction to switching character encoding around at whim. |
| 01:07 | <@Namegduf> | Also use of both Windows codepage shit and UTF-16 in the same protocol. |
| 01:08 | <&McMartin> | It deeply saddens me that MS seems to have bridged that divide more smoothly than anyone else did. |
| 01:08 | <&McMartin> | (OS X doesn't count because they had a REPLACE ENTIRE UNIVERSE step) |
| 01:08 | <&McMartin> | (Which does in fact work a charm~) |
| 01:08 | <&McMartin> | But the A/W thing on Windows is basically exactly the problem wxWidgets had and utterly failed to address |
| 01:09 | <~Vornicus> | A/W? |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | A function like CreateFile on Windows is actually a macro |
| 01:09 | <~Vornicus> | uh...huh |
| 01:10 | <&McMartin> | Depending on compilation flags, it maps either to CreateFileA or CreateFileW. The former takes 8-bit characters in the system encoding. The latter takes UTF16LE, everywhere, always, forever, and is what you are supposed to use in this modern day and age. |
| 01:10 | <&McMartin> | (By which I mean "Since Win2k") |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | There is also a macro type TCHAR which is either char or wchar_t depending on those flags. |
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| 01:13 | <&McMartin> | What wxWidgets did was have a compilation flag for character width and then install itself with the same name into a hardcoded system location, and then require you to wrap all your strings in a macro to do conversion if necessary, which nobody, including them, did in their manuals |
| 01:14 | <&McMartin> | Resulting in, on my system, copypasting hello world from the docs failing to compile, and indeed my old joke about wxWidgets not so much being a widget toolkit as a test suite for C++ error messages |
| 01:14 | <&McMartin> | (And also resulting in, in practice, any given Linux distro only being able to run half of the programs out there using wx) |
| 01:20 | <~Vornicus> | Also I kind of wish there was some sort of comment syntax for json |
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| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | OK, collisions half work |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | Argh |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | My !generator is failing. Again. |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | grumble grumble |
| 02:18 | | * Vornicus gives McM some bait/ |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | THE OLD MAN DISLIKES BEEF |
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| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | \o/ |
| 02:35 | <~Vornicus> | \o\ /o/ |
| 02:35 | | * McMartin gets simple reciprocal collisions working. |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | That's not enough to be a complete test, but it's enough to be "kinda works" |
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| 05:35 | <&McMartin> | Test complete! |
| 05:35 | | * McMartin pushes. |
| 05:39 | <&McMartin> | Tests I know I still have to do: subscribing for collisions to a trait of which none exist; subscribing to collisions of more than one trait |
| 05:41 | <&McMartin> | This does mean I should start seriously generating resources for Shoot The Thing, though. |
| 05:53 | <~Vornicus> | collisions to a trait of which none exist? "if you hit an X..." but there's no X in the level? |
| 05:54 | <&McMartin> | Right. |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | Basically, I've got a generator that lives in the heart of a triply nested loop |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | For objects that can collide with anything... |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | --> for each "if you hit an X..." rule... |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | --> for each object that is an X... |
| 05:59 | <~Vornicus> | the second I can't parse |
| 05:59 | <~Vornicus> | (collisions of more than one trait) |
| 05:59 | <&McMartin> | It's a disjunction |
| 05:59 | <&McMartin> | Each object has a list of traits it has, and a list of traits it collides with |
| 06:00 | <&McMartin> | If an object says "I'm interested in collisions with an objects of traits X and Y" and it hits an object that has both, two collision events are generated. |
| 06:03 | <~Vornicus> | aha |
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| 07:04 | | * McMartin ponders his C64 stuff |
| 07:04 | <&McMartin> | I wonder if I can programmatically distinguish PAL from NTSC televisions by watching the raster-count register. |
| 07:05 | <~Vornicus> | that'd be nuts |
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| 07:17 | <&McMartin> | Hmmm |
| 07:18 | <&McMartin> | The visible range is the same set of scanlines for both (51-251), but the counter can go all the way up to 512 and the VBLANK definitely gets past 256 for both. |
| 07:18 | <&McMartin> | Since I've used BIT on the MSB to do VBLANK testing in the past |
| 07:43 | <&McMartin> | OK, PAL seems to loop at raster 311 |
| 07:45 | <&McMartin> | NTSC looks like it loops after raster 262 |
| 07:46 | <&McMartin> | I might be getting interference from the timer and keyboard interrupts, though. |
| 07:52 | <&McMartin> | Ha HA, perfect |
| 07:53 | <&McMartin> | Totally consistent every time |
| 07:54 | <&McMartin> | Now to package it up as a standalone routine. |
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| 08:10 | <&McMartin> | :science: |
| 08:12 | <~Vornicus> | That's some science indeed |
| 08:15 | <&McMartin> | My latest C64 projects have been using the SEI and CLI instructions *way* too much. |
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| 08:32 | <&McMartin> | Oho, not quite |
| 08:32 | <&McMartin> | It looks like earlier NTSC models loop at raster 261 instead. |
| 08:33 | <&McMartin> | Yep, there we go. |
| 08:41 | <&McMartin> | http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/627 |
| 08:54 | <~Vornicus> | You know, something occurs to me |
| 08:55 | <~Vornicus> | When I first got a playstation I was kind of surprised at something, though this may be mostly because I was not really familiar with how video games worked at the time: I had a demo disc with like 20 games on it, and every one was basically "the whole program plus a little data" |
| 08:55 | <~Vornicus> | And I wonder, looking back, how the ratio of code to data in your typical game has changed over the years. |
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| 09:01 | <&McMartin> | I remember that demo disc. |
| 09:01 | <&McMartin> | It's how I learned Einhaender existed. |
| 09:01 | <~Vornicus> | There were actually several |
| 09:02 | <~Vornicus> | Mine didn't have Einhander, iirc, but it had Ace Combat, Armored Core, Croc, some crazy loud tank game, a formula 1 racer... |
| 09:03 | <~Vornicus> | (this is all I remember about the tank game; if we wanted to play it, we had to turn the volume down to like 1/4 what we usually put to get it to sound reasonable) |
| 09:04 | <~Vornicus> | oh, and intelligent qube |
| 09:05 | <~Vornicus> | Oh oh oh, and Parappa The Rapper |
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| 09:14 | <&McMartin> | Whoops, lame |
| 09:14 | | * McMartin pokes around, determines that the C64 poweron ROM does exactly this test and stores the result in a known memory location. |
| 09:15 | <&McMartin> | So all you have to do is check the result of PEEK(678) |
| 09:21 | <~Vornicus> | heh |
| 09:21 | <~Vornicus> | I wonder how many games looked at that... |
| 09:21 | <&McMartin> | Even if you aren't doing stuff that's VBLANK timing dependent, it turns out to be hugely important. |
| 09:23 | <&McMartin> | That To the Moon fanwork I did has horrendous sprite flickering or jumping if I write for one and use the other. |
| 09:23 | <&McMartin> | I should update my demonstration program, really |
| 09:28 | <~Vornicus> | I know it's "important" in that sense but I wonder how many games bothered coding for both. |
| 09:28 | <&McMartin> | Typically you had different releases for each |
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| 10:01 | <@Azash> | http://i.imgur.com/9qrrS06.jpg |
| 10:01 | | * Thalass shakesfist at wiican |
| 10:01 | < Thalass> | For having a name that confuses search engines, and for the developer dropping off the face of the earth and not leaving documentation behind. |
| 10:01 | < Thalass> | :P |
| 10:06 | <@froztbyte> | https://twitter.com/NoSQLBorat/status/367183793213292545 |
| 10:06 | <@froztbyte> | Thalass: your complaints ring suspiciously like those of one who doesn't possess the requisite internet archeology skillset |
| 10:10 | < Thalass> | Apparently my google fu is failing me today. But in my defence it was +35 with 40% humidity today so my think can't brain |
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| 10:13 | <@froztbyte> | those are circumstances pretty conducive against braining |
| 10:33 | < Thalass> | very |
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| 11:10 | < thalass> | Ah, well, rebooting seems to have wiican working well. Now to remember wminput config file writing skills that i haven't used in years. |
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| 15:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | Hmm. |
| 15:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | If I'm breaking backwards compatibility anyways, maybe I should rename 'unpack' and 'pack' to 'read' and 'write' |
| 15:07 | <@Tamber> | Well, if you're already breaking the universe, you may as well. |
| 15:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well - what I'm already breaking is that a feature that was previously available by passing extra arguments to an existing function is now a separate function, and any code using that feature will need to change. |
| 15:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | The proposed unpack -> read change would mean that all code using this library in any capacity would need to change. |
| 15:22 | <&jerith> | Are "read" and "write" better names than "unpack" and "pack" for the functionality? |
| 15:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | I think so, but it can plausibly be argued either way. |
| 15:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | 'unpack' takes an fd or string containing binary data and a description of the format of that data, and returns the data. |
| 15:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | 'pack' does the converse. |
| 15:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | It is basically python's "struct" module on steroids. |
| 15:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | My current thinking is "I think read/write are marginally better" + "unpack is a name collision with the global unpack() function, which makes it hard to write non-confusing documentation" |
| 15:47 | < ErikMesoy> | "serialize"? |
| 15:47 | < ErikMesoy> | "flatten"? |
| 15:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | In a sense, the question I'm asking isn't just "should I rename these functions" but "is the next release 1.2 or 2.0" |
| 15:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | Definitely not flatten, that's for converting a treeable into a seqable |
| 15:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which I guess is technically correct here but highly misleading~ |
| 15:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | Man. Using it in my own projects is a great way to drive improvements in my library, but it does mean that every time I want to do something with ss1edit I spend 90% of my time over in vstruct with an industrial yak peeler. |
| 15:55 | <@froztbyte> | I've got a similar prolem |
| 15:55 | <@froztbyte> | problem* |
| 15:55 | <@froztbyte> | tcpdump is a really easy way to find all kinds of problems. |
| 15:55 | <@froztbyte> | except apparently it's not (for other people) |
| 16:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | You wrote tcpdump? |
| 16:22 | <@froztbyte> | no, but I use it as an industrial grade hammer/shear for a rather wide variety of problems |
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| 16:24 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| 16:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | Does it make me a bad person if I call a function that returns an iterator over the bits in a string |
| 16:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | 'biterator()'? |
| 17:07 | < ErikMesoy> | No |
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| 17:57 | < Shiz> | yes |
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| 18:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: TOO LATE |
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| 19:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff |
| 19:17 | <@Tamber> | g. |
| 19:20 | < Shiz> | h |
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| 21:53 | | * TheWatcher pokes for a Vorn |
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| 22:14 | <~Vornicus> | yo |
| 22:14 | <~Vornicus> | What's up, doc? |
| 22:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Excel query? |
| 22:18 | <@TheWatcher> | Say I have a cell =(D13-C10)/F15 |
| 22:18 | <@TheWatcher> | and one below it that I want to be =(D14-C10)/F15 |
| 22:19 | <~Vornicus> | =(D14-C$10)/F$15 |
| 22:19 | <~Vornicus> | A dollar sign before a coordinate prevents that coordinate from changing when you copy the cell elsewhere. |
| 22:20 | <@TheWatcher> | I owe you a beer. |
| 22:20 | <@TheWatcher> | Thanks muchly! |
| 22:21 | <~Vornicus> | So a multiplication table looks like =$A2*B$1 |
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| 23:43 | < abudhabi_> | Anyone know what the various levels of support are? 1st line, 2nd line, 3rd line, etc? |
| 23:46 | < Vorntastic> | Depends on the org, I thought. |
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| 23:48 | < abudhabi_> | It seems very standardized. What do these designations do at work? |
| 23:49 | < Vorntastic> | First line is generally the basic filter; people with common problems hit a script. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Feb 24 00:00:52 2014 |