| --- Log opened Wed Jan 15 00:00:19 2014 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Jan 15 07:08:56 2014 |
| --- Log opened Wed Jan 15 08:33:46 2014 |
| 08:33 | | TheWatcher [chris@Nightstar-ksqup0.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 08:33 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 39 nicks [19 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 20 normal] |
| 08:33 | | mode/#code [+o TheWatcher] by ChanServ |
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| 10:09 | | * TheWatcher sighs at students |
| 10:09 | <@TheWatcher> | Why is it apparently too much to ask for them to check the values returned by function calls? :/ |
| 10:24 | <@froztbyte> | was it one of the marking criteria? |
| 10:28 | <@TheWatcher> | Yep |
| 10:29 | <@TheWatcher> | And yes, they are aware of that |
| 10:30 | <@TheWatcher> | This is also the guy who directly accessed data inside an opaque structure, even when told in the question he'd lose marks for it. |
| 10:36 | < RichyB> | Better to do it wrong and get partial marks than to not do it in time and get no marks. |
| 10:44 | <@Tarinaky> | Yeah. A lot of the time I get frustrated at lecturers who think I have attempted a question badly because I misread the question and not because I didn't know the material/couldn't perform. |
| 10:45 | <@Tarinaky> | Particularly i proof-based maths where I reach a point and get stuck. |
| 10:46 | <@Tarinaky> | All I really can do at that point is handwave. |
| 10:49 | <@TheWatcher> | All fair, except that a) he submitted three days before the deadline, b) they have all been repeatedly told about the importance of things like checking the values returned from fopen(), etc, and c) it clearly says "you should use get_square() and set_square() to access the squares data, directly reading or writing to the memory pointed to in the map structure will cost you a mark" |
| 10:50 | <@Tarinaky> | A is largely irrelevant. |
| 10:51 | <@Tarinaky> | b and c largely fall into the above. A follows from being a poor student/struggling with course basics like that. |
| 10:51 | <@TheWatcher> | He got 18/20. He's not struggling. |
| 10:52 | <@Tarinaky> | He still hit the "Fuck it that will do" threshold. |
| 10:53 | <@froztbyte> | irunno |
| 10:53 | <@froztbyte> | he sounds like a shithead |
| 10:53 | <@froztbyte> | or a troll |
| 10:53 | <@Tarinaky> | That describes every undergraduate ever. |
| 10:54 | <@TheWatcher> | froztbyte: The student isn't too great, either? ;P |
| 10:54 | <@froztbyte> | good thing we keep them isolated to places they can't do much |
| 10:54 | <@froztbyte> | TheWatcher: haha |
| 10:54 | <@Tarinaky> | You say that, I'm graduating soon... |
| 10:54 | <@Tarinaky> | Look out world. |
| 10:56 | <@Tarinaky> | idly. Linux Mint. When I move my mouse to the corner of the screen a fancy pager appears for window swapping. |
| 10:56 | <@Tarinaky> | This is undesirable/annoying. |
| 10:56 | <@Tarinaky> | Any idea how to turn it off? |
| 10:58 | <~Vornicus> | on mac that's called a hot corner |
| 10:59 | <@Tarinaky> | I keep setting it off every time I go to any of the widgets near the edge of the screen due to being an imprecise thug. |
| 11:04 | <@froztbyte> | that used to be in compiz settings |
| 11:04 | <@froztbyte> | not sure what Mint does or runs these days |
| 11:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Shitting hell. Why is it so hard to find clear revision material for maths :/ |
| 11:08 | <@froztbyte> | heh |
| 11:08 | <@froztbyte> | that's an Involved question |
| 11:08 | <@Tarinaky> | Trying to refresh my memory on how to do the Simplex Algorithm. |
| 11:08 | <@Tarinaky> | I... appear to have completely forgotten how to find the pivot, and what to do with the pivot. |
| 11:12 | <~Vornicus> | I never properly figured out simplex either |
| 11:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Unfortunately, tomorrow I have an exam on (basically) nothing but the Simplex algorithm. |
| 11:16 | <@Tarinaky> | (Well, and some other variations on it like two-phase and some transport problems as well - but basically...) |
| 11:17 | <@Tarinaky> | So... I don't have the luxury of not having it figured >.< |
| 11:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay. I think I've figured out how to select the pivot. |
| 11:17 | <@Tarinaky> | But I'm not sure how to do the Objective row. |
| 11:23 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh wait. I'm selecting the wrong pivot. |
| 11:32 | <@Tarinaky> | I also wouldn't mind a smaller keyboard or a bigger desk because I'm going to end up breaking something accidentally with the shuffling of the keyboard I need to do. |
| 11:41 | | Ksenia [Ksenia@Nightstar-pdt.jr1.226.91.IP] has joined #code |
| 11:41 | < Ksenia> | hey |
| 11:43 | <~Vornicus> | h'loo |
| 11:43 | < Ksenia> | +Vornicus+ what's up? |
| 11:45 | <~Vornicus> | nothing, but that's a very strange way of emphasis |
| 11:47 | < Ksenia> | +Vornicus+ you sound like a bot |
| 11:50 | <@gnolam> | Addressing, not emphasis, I think.~ |
| 11:50 | <@gnolam> | (Still strange though) |
| 11:50 | <~Vornicus> | My spirit animal is a robot. |
| 11:51 | < Ksenia> | +gnolam+ so I was right then;p |
| 11:51 | < Ksenia> | Any real people who want to talk? I wonder) |
| 11:52 | < Ksenia> | ;[] |
| 11:52 | <~Vornicus> | No, I'm real. |
| 11:52 | <~Vornicus> | It's just my spirit animal is a robot. |
| 11:52 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't think there's any bots in here. |
| 11:52 | <~Vornicus> | Also I am very tired and the bed is covered in stuff and this makes me sad. |
| 11:53 | <@Tarinaky> | But there's no guarentee that a human can pass the turing test. |
| 11:53 | <@TheWatcher> | Vornicus: is it because of your plans that you say you are real? |
| 11:53 | <@Tarinaky> | At least, I hope I'm real :p |
| 11:53 | <~Vornicus> | TheWatcher: I plan, therefore I am? |
| 11:54 | < Ksenia> | +Tarinaky+ good to hear you face it lol |
| 11:54 | | * TheWatcher eyes M-x doctor |
| 11:54 | < Ksenia> | +Vornicus+ you still remain to be odd |
| 11:54 | <@TheWatcher> | Useless piece of crap can't come up with a decent reply to that |
| 11:54 | < Ksenia> | sorry) |
| 11:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, if I'm not real that means I should be able to get a simulated coffee from Starbucks for free. |
| 11:55 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm gonna go test that hypothesis. BBIAB |
| 11:55 | < Ksenia> | Looks like a meeting of philosophers |
| 11:55 | < Ksenia> | =) |
| 11:56 | <@gnolam> | My spirit animal is the boozehound. |
| 11:56 | <@Tarinaky> | And on the German team we have Nietzche and Schleigel in Offense. |
| 11:56 | <@gnolam> | *ba-dum-tisch* |
| 11:56 | <@Tarinaky> | *Monty Python link here* |
| 11:58 | <@TheWatcher> | Code does commonly involve problems that could fall within the purview of conundrums of philiosophy. |
| 11:58 | <@TheWatcher> | *philosophy |
| 11:58 | | * TheWatcher needs to get his spelling module looked at |
| 11:59 | < Ksenia> | * thinking how to get a piece of rela talking up there |
| 11:59 | | * Vornicus recommends using /me |
| 11:59 | <~Vornicus> | We also solve practical problems. |
| 11:59 | | * TheWatcher uses Vorn to solve practical problems |
| 12:00 | | * Vornicus tears said mean mother hubbard a superfluous new behind |
| 12:00 | <~Vornicus> | sorry, structurally superfluous |
| 12:03 | < Ksenia> | here we go |
| 12:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Today on good idea, bad idea: |
| 12:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Good idea, bringing a pair of comfortable trainers to change into. |
| 12:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Bad idea, wearing my high-heels on campus at all. |
| 12:18 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway. I tried explaining that I had failed the turing test and as such had to assume that as I was not, in fact, real but a simulation the whole of reality as I experienced it must also be a simulation and that I should get free cofe, since it wasn't real. |
| 12:18 | <@Tarinaky> | At which point they gave the very thoughtful rebuttal of £2.10. |
| 12:20 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 12:21 | <@Tarinaky> | When pressed they also pointed out that given, as far as I am able to empirically determine, this reality is indestinguishable from the 'real' reality it must be possible to substitute one for the other - making it an alternate reality, rather than an illusion. |
| 12:22 | <@Tarinaky> | Further any discussion about embedding a simulated reality inside the universe must contend with the fact that the existence of a Quantum Computer is not a given. |
| 12:25 | <@Tarinaky> | And even if one does exist, any attempt to perform measurement or otherwise interact with the sub-universe (and thus perform 'useful' work) would cause the cataclysmic destruction of life and matter within the sub-universe due to no-cloning. |
| 12:26 | <@Tarinaky> | So it is extremely unlikely for a quantum-universe simulation to ever become embedded within a host quantum-universe. |
| 12:27 | <@Tarinaky> | And if we assume the host universe is somehow super-quantum (ie capable of cloning /and/ coherence), one has to question why they'd impose such an arbitrary restriction upon us. |
| 12:28 | <@Tarinaky> | I was forced to conceed the point and pay for the coffee. |
| 12:28 | < RichyB> | Maybe they're bastards |
| 12:28 | < RichyB> | maybe it's cheaper |
| 12:28 | <@Tarinaky> | The only reason I can think of is to stop infinite recursion. |
| 12:29 | <@Tarinaky> | By enforcing adaption decay. |
| 12:29 | <@Tarinaky> | But that only works for one step. |
| 12:29 | <@Tarinaky> | There's nothing to stop you simulating a classical universe in a classical universe. |
| 12:30 | <@Tarinaky> | (You just can't /solve/ it, you can still simulate it) |
| 12:30 | < RichyB> | maybe cloning is possible but expensive and the sim runners clone us only when they want to interact? |
| 12:31 | <@Tamber> | 'Lazy' cloning, to save the cost of running the clone operation until you're strictly needed? |
| 12:31 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't think that matters in Quantum Computing. Because of coherence. |
| 12:32 | <@Tarinaky> | As long as you aren't reading in or out of the qubit 'blob' everything can happen all at once/parallel inside the blob... |
| 12:32 | <@Tarinaky> | So only clones into and out of the guest universe would cost anything in the host universe. |
| 12:32 | <@Tarinaky> | Clones /internal/ to the guest universe would only cost the guest universe... |
| 12:33 | <@Tarinaky> | (I think) |
| 12:34 | <@Tarinaky> | So there'd have to be some /very/ strange rules governing the super-quantum universe. |
| 12:36 | <@Tarinaky> | Baring in mind that the 'unstrange' Super-Quantum universe had Time Travel and no causality as a given. |
| 12:36 | < RichyB> | can you efficiently simulate a quantum computer given a classical one and closed timelike curves (i.e. time travel)? |
| 12:37 | <@Tarinaky> | No. |
| 12:37 | < RichyB> | I think you actually can. |
| 12:37 | <@Tarinaky> | I think you can only approximate one. |
| 12:38 | <@Tarinaky> | It'd still be a classical simulation. Just with a lot of... complexity. |
| 12:38 | < RichyB> | Classical + CTC lets you solve NP-complete problems easily. |
| 12:38 | < RichyB> | Decision problems with QM are still inside NP. |
| 12:38 | <@Tarinaky> | The NP-complete classical universe isn't indestinguishable from the Quantum one though. |
| 12:39 | <@Tarinaky> | *Quantum Universe. |
| 12:39 | <@Tarinaky> | I think. |
| 12:40 | <@Tarinaky> | You might be right but I'm not prepared to accept it on faigt. |
| 12:40 | <@Tarinaky> | *faith |
| 12:40 | <@Tarinaky> | And I suspect the proof would go over my head. |
| 12:41 | <@Tarinaky> | I think you can only make arbitrary-accuracy predictions about the quantum universe using such a device. |
| 12:42 | <@Tarinaky> | The quantum universe has physical randomness as a built in property - I have no idea what you could do with a CTC to simulate that. |
| 12:44 | | Typherix [Typherix@Nightstar-n91qrf.lnngmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 12:44 | < RichyB> | Oh I'm wrong about the complexity. BQP isn't known to be contained within NP. |
| 12:44 | <@Tarinaky> | BQP? |
| 12:45 | < RichyB> | BQP = Bounded-error, Quantum, Polynomial-time |
| 12:45 | <@Tarinaky> | Ahah. |
| 12:46 | < RichyB> | BQP is the set of problems that you can solve on a quantum computer with probablility â of getting the right answer on each attempt. |
| 12:46 | | Typherix [Typherix@Nightstar-n91qrf.lnngmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #code |
| 12:46 | <@Tarinaky> | What fraction is that? |
| 12:46 | < RichyB> | 2/3rds, sorry. |
| 12:46 | <@Tarinaky> | My font is unreadable. |
| 12:46 | <@Tarinaky> | I'll try to remember that. |
| 12:47 | < RichyB> | 2/3rds is just an arbitrary number. Any fixed number above 1/2 would do. |
| 12:47 | <@Tarinaky> | You never know when I'll need to win an argument :V |
| 12:47 | < RichyB> | :) |
| 12:47 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway. To take the tone down a bit to more my level: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25741350 |
| 12:48 | <@Tarinaky> | I think this is laughably sexist rather than damagingly sexist. But I am not qualified to make that distinction :V |
| 12:48 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-sn7kve.sd.cox.net] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 12:51 | <@Tarinaky> | Going back to the CTC stuff again... If you thought you were trapped in a CTC-simulation of a quantum universe... could you tell by taking a radioactive sample of large enough size that eventually the PRNG that governed the radioactive decay would repeat itself? |
| 12:54 | < RichyB> | I don't think it has to give itself away that way. The PRNG's state vector could be bigger than the universe that contains you and the radioactive gunk. |
| 12:59 | <@Tarinaky> | While true... I'm not sure that'd be practical. |
| 12:59 | <@Tarinaky> | Essentially your PRNG would represent a bigger universe than the guest-universe. |
| 13:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: surely the rank of the guest-universe has no baring on its lifetime? |
| 13:00 | <@Tarinaky> | There's nothing to say that the guest-universe ends once it's exhausted all its permutations. |
| 13:01 | <@Tarinaky> | (Or that all the permutations are even accessible) |
| 13:02 | <@Tarinaky> | I mean, obviously, such an experiment would have a life-time exceeding that of the scientist who set it up. But there're plenty of experiments irl like that. |
| 13:02 | <@Tarinaky> | (Tar drop for example) |
| 13:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Plus I think the fact that such an experiment /could/ be performed matters philosophically. |
| 13:09 | | Thalasleep is now known as Thalass |
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| 13:59 | <@simon_> | on a single CPU, running a single program with ten threads shouldn't be faster or slower than running ten programs with one thread, right? |
| 13:59 | <@simon_> | I mean, OS threads aren't particularly faster than OS processes, and the main benefit of threads is synchronization mechanisms and shared memory, right? |
| 13:59 | <@simon_> | (on Linux) |
| 14:19 | | Yan_Xiao_Lin [Z@Nightstar-ro94ms.balk.dk] has joined #code |
| 14:35 | <@simon_> | if I've got a single Java object that a bunch of threads use simultaneously, will that create any kind of cache conflict? e.g. the object being wiped from one CPU core's cache in favour of being present in another. |
| 14:35 | <@simon_> | hi Yan_Xiao_Lin. are you from Denmark? |
| 14:39 | < AbuDhabi_> | danskjaevla.jpg |
| 14:40 | < AbuDhabi_> | (:V) |
| 14:40 | <@simon_> | hehe :) |
| 14:41 | <@simon_> | AbuDhabi_, do you play WoD? |
| 14:41 | < AbuDhabi_> | Every game of WoD I've ever joined died soon after it started, or even sooner. |
| 14:42 | < AbuDhabi_> | Are you offering a game? |
| 15:00 | <@simon_> | no, in the middle of an exam :) |
| 15:00 | <@simon_> | I was thinking of WoD in general. I mostly played the pen 'n paper version. |
| 15:07 | < Yan_Xiao_Lin> | simon_ Yeah. |
| 15:07 | < Yan_Xiao_Lin> | What gave it away? The .dk? |
| 15:08 | < RichyB> | simon_, ten OS threads multiplexed on a single CPU may be slower than one OS thread doing the same work. |
| 15:08 | <@TheWatcher> | I dunno, waving your .dk around in public, have you no shame? |
| 15:08 | <@simon_> | Yan_Xiao_Lin, yes. wherefrom are you? |
| 15:09 | < RichyB> | Yan_Xiao_Lin, you're new here, I take it? Welcome! |
| 15:09 | < Yan_Xiao_Lin> | Denmark. I thought we already established this. |
| 15:09 | < Yan_Xiao_Lin> | Not really. |
| 15:09 | < RichyB> | You're old here, I take it? Welcome!! |
| 15:09 | <@simon_> | RichyB, certainly. I suspect there's a good ratio of threads per CPU core, and so far my suspicion is approximately one thread per core if they do a lot of work. :) |
| 15:09 | < RichyB> | simon_, so, if threading lets you avoid a stall for any reason (e.g. disk I/O) then that's great |
| 15:10 | < RichyB> | otherwise, preemption while threads>CPUs just results in more context switches and cache thrashing. |
| 15:11 | <@simon_> | RichyB, I did some preliminary benchmarks that suggest that 4-5 threads on my Intel i5 with four cores performed the best for my application. 4 might be because this is parallellizable, and 5 might be because of disk I/O. |
| 15:11 | <@simon_> | RichyB, yeah, so I'm curious: if I share the same object across four cores on the JVM, do you think that will cause cache thrashing? |
| 15:11 | < RichyB> | Sounds entirely plausible. |
| 15:11 | < RichyB> | Depends |
| 15:12 | < RichyB> | Sharing read-only objects doesn't add any extra cost |
| 15:12 | <@simon_> | it has local references to shared objects (that, if the JVM and I are sensible, aren't in any cache, but the reference might be) |
| 15:13 | <@simon_> | I guess I'll have to benchmark it :) |
| 15:13 | < RichyB> | If you have multiple cores trying to mutate the same object all the time though, things get slower. |
| 15:13 | <@simon_> | right. and they do some of the time. |
| 15:13 | < RichyB> | e.g. an unsynchronised load or store inside L1 is completely pipelineable and takes like 1ns. |
| 15:14 | < RichyB> | I've benchmarked this: synchronised RWM instructions (__sync_fetch_and_add and __sync_compare_and_swap) take ~10-20ns on modern x86 CPUs if no other core is trying to do the same thing at the same time |
| 15:15 | < RichyB> | if two or more cores inside a single chip are both trying to modify the same cache line then they go up to more like 200-400ns per atomic update instruction |
| 15:15 | < Yan_Xiao_Lin> | RichyB: You might know me as Stalker/Serah/Djeena/ZLOK/Ail_Gryn or something entirely elese. |
| 15:15 | < RichyB> | Yan_Xiao_Lin, oh sorry, yes, of course. :) |
| 15:16 | < Yan_Xiao_Lin> | :) |
| 15:16 | < RichyB> | I didn't realise that Stalker and Serah were the same person. :) |
| 15:16 | < RichyB> | simon_, when I ran that, I only had access to multi-core single-die CPUs |
| 15:17 | < RichyB> | two competing hyperthreads is the lowest-latency contention |
| 15:17 | < RichyB> | two cores on the same piece of silicon is a bit slower (and is where I got that 200ns-400ns rough figure from) |
| 15:17 | <@simon_> | Yan_Xiao_Lin, I meant to imply wherefrom in Denmark. |
| 15:17 | < RichyB> | two cores on different dies inside the same package is slower again |
| 15:17 | < Yan_Xiao_Lin> | Zealand. Copenhagen suburbs. |
| 15:17 | < RichyB> | two cores in different sockets in a NUMA system is WAY slower, like, molasses in January |
| 15:18 | < RichyB> | Ooh, Copenhagen is pretty. |
| 15:18 | <@simon_> | I live in Copenhagen, too. |
| 15:19 | <@simon_> | RichyB, heh, ok. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jan 16 00:00:52 2014 |