code logs -> 2013 -> Mon, 21 Oct 2013< code.20131020.log - code.20131022.log >
--- Log opened Mon Oct 21 00:00:02 2013
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00:53
<&McMartin>
Am I the only person who, when using a program with a DOS-like interface, feels uncomfortable if it's not running in full screen?
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01:02 io\GO_PACK_GO is now known as iospace
01:03
<@froztbyte>
haha
01:03
<@froztbyte>
irunno
01:03
<@froztbyte>
I don't tend to end up much with "DOS" environments
01:03
<@froztbyte>
but I spend a pretty damned significant amount of time in shells
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01:14
<&ToxicFrog>
McMartin: yes.
01:17
< xybre>
Using a lot of terminal programs makes me want to sue a tiling window manager.
01:17
<&McMartin>
Yeah
01:17
<&McMartin>
Some of this is, I think, that Schism Tracker is *so close* to the old Scream Tracker
01:27
< xybre>
I have been playing with Renoise which is sort of a weird blend between old school trackers and modern DAWs. The focus on samples doesn't do me a lot of good since I'm mostly a synthesist though.
01:28
<&McMartin>
My actual task here is to program a VIC-20 chiptune for an actual VIC-20, so I'm using this as a more pleasant intermediary ground
01:30
<@froztbyte>
one moment
01:30
<@froztbyte>
I need to re-find a link that gnolam gave me
01:31
<@froztbyte>
https://soundcloud.com/cantaloupemusic/04-tristan-perich-1-bit
01:32
<@froztbyte>
McMartin: ^
01:38
< xybre>
MY ears.
01:38
< xybre>
OW.
01:39
<@froztbyte>
haha
01:40
<@froztbyte>
I'm guessing http://countercomplex.blogspot.com/2011/10/algorithmic-symphonies-from-one-line- of.html won't fall well with you either, then ;)
01:41
<&McMartin>
Bracing evidence that the most important innovation of the C64's SID chip was an envelope generator
01:42
<@froztbyte>
in about 5~7min this conversation will likely again end up with me wishing I'd already bought a full-width keyboard, and made/acquired a theremin
01:42 Serah [Z@Nightstar-b920a19c.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds]
01:44 * froztbyte retries sleep
01:51
< xybre>
The volume was up and the sound is like one giant clipfest.
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02:56
<&McMartin>
"giant clipfest": this is what a square wave *is*
02:56
<&McMartin>
The only values your speaker have are +V and GND
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06:00 * McMartin eyes SoundNaif
06:00
<&McMartin>
My God, what have I done
06:01
<&McMartin>
Answer: I have invented 8-bit bagpipes
06:06
<~Vornicus>
This I think I need to hear.
06:12
<@Alek>
ditto
06:15
<&McMartin>
Well, it's more "I wanted to hold a long note in the bass, but I forgot that I was automating stacatto"
06:15
<&McMartin>
Which produces an effect more like a drone that needs to pause every four measures to "take a breath" or reinflate the bag
06:15
<&McMartin>
Still working on this tune.
06:16
<&McMartin>
Once it's done, I'll have a .it version of it and a .prg version of it.
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07:16
<&McMartin>
Ha ha ha
07:16
<&McMartin>
Loading the .it into Winamp, the square waves are *very clearly visible*
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07:39
<~Vornicus>
With the spectrum analyzer? yeah, square waves have a dead giveaway.
07:47
<@froztbyte>
McMartin: hahaha
07:48 Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk
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07:56
<&McMartin>
Vornicus: No, the, uh, virtual oscilloscope
07:57
<~Vornicus>
oh I see. Yeah that'd have it on there too wouldn't it.
07:58
<&McMartin>
"Oh look, squares"
07:58
< abudhabi>
Square orbits?
07:58
<&McMartin>
Square waves
07:59
<&McMartin>
OK, this is about the right length, and there's enough internal repetition that I should be able to compress the shit out of it
07:59
<&McMartin>
I think I can fit this whole thing in under half a k
08:00
<&McMartin>
I suspect I can't get it into a single page, though
08:02
<@froztbyte>
smaller font~!
08:04
< abudhabi>
Were there any comments about my orbits? I'm afraid I lost the backscroll.
08:06
<~Vornicus>
I don't have your orbits in my backscroll.
08:08
< abudhabi>
Vornicus: http://imgur.com/VRaEoWm
08:09
<~Vornicus>
I believe your speeds are backwards.
08:09
<~Vornicus>
Yes, they definitely are.
08:11
< abudhabi>
What do you mean?
08:11
<~Vornicus>
More distant orbits are slower.
08:11
<&McMartin>
OK, calling that done.
08:12
<&McMartin>
https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/camino.it
08:12
<&McMartin>
Warning: Square waves with no volume envelopes
08:13
<~Vornicus>
The bass makes my face buzz.
08:13
< abudhabi>
Vornicus: ATM orbits are purely random.
08:13
< abudhabi>
It just so happens that they're backwards.
08:13
<&McMartin>
Vornicus: I had to deliberately increase the pitch of this damn thing to not make each phase transition individually audible. -_-
08:14 * McMartin minimized the bagpipe effect some by having the bass bounce around a little more; originally it was a facebuzz drone.
08:14
<&McMartin>
That was the "8-bit bagpipe"
08:16 Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody
08:18
<&jerith>
What do I need to play a .it file?
08:19
<&McMartin>
WinAmp ought to just do it on windows
08:19
<&McMartin>
On POSIX platforms, mikmod is the traditional commandline player
08:20
<&McMartin>
(.it is one of the four standard tracker formats, the other three being .MOD, .S3M, and .XM)
08:20
<&jerith>
Oh, right. It's a MOD.
08:21
<&McMartin>
Well, no, because it's using Impulse Tracker conventions instead of FastTracker 2 conventions, but~
08:21 * jerith installs mikmod.
08:21
<&McMartin>
This will also let you play the UQM soundtrack >_>
08:22
<&McMartin>
And the WaDF soundtrack and the Crusader No Remorse soundtrack
08:22 * McMartin rocks out to the CNR level 1 music again.
08:22
<&jerith>
Or not.
08:22
<&McMartin>
?
08:23
<&jerith>
The link in the brew file 404s and the download link on the website is SourceForge.
08:23
<&McMartin>
oy
08:23
<~Vornicus>
VLC handles it for me
08:24
<&jerith>
Even after expending nontrivial effort, I have never been able to extract a direct download link from SourceForge.
08:24
<&jerith>
But a "brew update" got me a version with a working download link.
08:25
<&McMartin>
It is not easy
08:25
<&McMartin>
The UQM web installer manages it, but requires occasional tuning to keep up with the mirror lists.
08:25
<&jerith>
Ah, I see what you mean.
08:26
<&McMartin>
It turns out that .IT, unlike .MOD, actually does let you define envelopes to impose upon looping samples
08:26
<&McMartin>
Which lets you do SID-like chip effects without distortion as the frequency changes
08:26
<&McMartin>
The VIC-20 lacks envelope generators, so, suffering for all
08:26 * jerith never used a VIC-20.
08:27
<&McMartin>
Let's just say there's a reason why the C64 scene remains semi-professional to this day and the VIC-20 scene is like eight dudes.
08:27
<&jerith>
Indeed.
08:27
<&McMartin>
(And this MIT academic techno-poet who enlisted my help)
08:27
<&jerith>
C64 is where it's at.
08:27
<~Vornicus>
c64 had a damn good sound
08:27
<&jerith>
One day I would like to be a techno-poet.
08:27
<&McMartin>
He is a professor of new media
08:28
<~Vornicus>
I never used a vic 20 but I always got Compute's Gazette, and the vic20 screenshots were all very terrible
08:28
<&McMartin>
He is in serious danger of vanishing up his own alimentary canal in reverse, sometimes, I think, but he's done good work in the past.
08:28
<&McMartin>
I've been ripping apart pirated versions of the books from the old Gazette
08:28
<&McMartin>
I'm starting to figure out where the demoscene was learning its basics
08:29
<&McMartin>
MOD/XM/IT appregios come close to an effect that the SID playroutines always used to get chords out
08:29
<&jerith>
So, I discovered the other day that my CEO was the guy who did the CGI animation for a kids TV thing half a lifetime (mine) ago.
08:29
<&McMartin>
It's not unique to the SID but they're the ones who made it a signature style
08:29
<&jerith>
He was 25 and had no experience with this stuff.
08:30
<&McMartin>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiAgWhgp_mw
08:31
<&McMartin>
This is an XM, but it's doing the SID trick of 60Hz appregios for chords.
08:32
<&jerith>
But he thought "sounds interesting, how hard can it be?" and sold a house to buy an Indigo or something.
08:32
<~Vornicus>
Oh /that/ trick
08:32
<&McMartin>
(Other places it turns up, a little more subtly: the hyperspace theme from UQM.)
08:33
<&McMartin>
(I didn't twig to it for some time)
08:33
<~Vornicus>
this one beats C64, it's got stereo
08:33
<&McMartin>
Well, yes, it's a relatively modern XM.
08:33
<&McMartin>
Cavanaugh appropriated it as the Self Destruct theme.
08:35
<&McMartin>
Then there's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-16KRvn4Xg which is, I think, repeatedly resetting the envelope.
08:35
<&McMartin>
IIRC the NES was pretty good at making that sound OK so you hear that one in Konami games a lot
08:44 * McMartin randomwalks through Dubmood's stuff on YouTube
08:44
<&McMartin>
I should be looting as much of this as I can. Good stuff.
08:45
<~Vornicus>
I need to learn how to music again.
08:46
<~Vornicus>
I'd gotten pretty good when I played banjo. Even had like two original songs.
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09:30 * abudhabi reads a C++ tutorial for C users, and finds that structs can have methods.
09:37
<&McMartin>
Yup
09:37
<&McMartin>
In C++, "struct" means "class, but members are public by default" and nothing else
09:37
<~Vornicus>
I believe the -- yeah
09:37
<&McMartin>
This also means that a class with no methods is a struct with members you can't reach.
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09:44
<&McMartin>
And actually, a class with no *virtual* methods is identical to a C struct with support functions outside of it.
09:44
<&McMartin>
But good luck relying on that behavior. =P
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10:39
<@Tarinaky>
Send help. I'm trapped in a lecture.
10:41
< abudhabi>
Tarinaky: You could try replicating my orbits!
10:42
<@Tarinaky>
Can't. Trapped in a lecture.
10:42
<@Tarinaky>
Still 3 hours more of being taught at before I get a break.
10:43
< abudhabi>
Then what's your problem? Learn!
10:44
<@Tarinaky>
I'm not learning.
10:44
<@Tarinaky>
I'm just growing confused and bored.
10:52
<~Vornicus>
Compared to doing all this shit in raw php, wordpress is a breeze.
10:52
<~Vornicus>
Still, it's php, and that means I need to murder people, but
10:53
<@Tarinaky>
It's so easy even a hakcer can do it!
10:53
<~Vornicus>
:P
10:54
< Syka_>
changing your content is so simple, anyone can do it!
10:55
< Syka_>
literally anyone!
10:55
<@Tarinaky>
I already made that joke :p
10:59 * Syka_ orders a hit on Tarinaky. NOBODY MUST KNOW
11:02
<@froztbyte>
lulz
11:02
<@Tarinaky>
Dunno, I read an article recently about a retired nurse strangling to death a junkie her estranged husband sent as a hitman.
11:03
<@Tarinaky>
Well, I say estranged... that's an assumption on my part.
11:20 * McMartin \o/
11:20
<&McMartin>
495 bytes!
11:27
<&McMartin>
Oops
11:27
<&McMartin>
497 >_>
11:28
<@Tarinaky>
The bitwise accountants will accuse you of embezzlement.
11:28
<@Tarinaky>
Obligatory Monty Python sketch here.
11:28 * Syka_ walks silly, but that's just because she has terrible coordination
11:28 * McMartin missed a delimiter
11:29
<&McMartin>
Anyway, I was aiming for "fit in 512 bytes" and I've managed that comfortably
11:29
< Syka_>
what are you fitting into 512 bytes
11:29
<&McMartin>
A chiptune and its playback routine
11:30
< Syka_>
McMartin: are you going McDemoscene
11:30
<&McMartin>
Kinda
11:30
<&McMartin>
This was on a dare
11:30
<&McMartin>
I'm handing the tune to the guy who intends to do the actual thing
11:31
< Syka_>
...you know, the last time someone dared me, it was to jump off a 15m rock into water
11:31
<&McMartin>
Which involves some kind of insane poetry generator or something because he is a professor of New Media
11:31
< Syka_>
and I didn't do it :D
11:31
< Syka_>
...my brother did it, and bellyflopped
11:31
< Syka_>
McMartin: heh
11:31
<&McMartin>
Yes, but that's because *you* were dared to jump to your death, and *I* was dared to write a VIC-20 demo component
11:31
< Syka_>
McMartin: are you guys targeting floppy dis-
11:31
< Syka_>
oh dear
11:31
<&McMartin>
Unexpanded VIC-20 :D
11:31
< Syka_>
hopefully not a real one
11:32
<&McMartin>
(Man, the sound chip is *crap*)
11:32
<&McMartin>
Well, actually, I think he does have one
11:32
<&McMartin>
And a 1541 Ultimate II to feed it our programs
11:33
<&McMartin>
This is a pretty pathetic entrance into the demoscene, though
11:33
< Syka_>
heh
11:33
<&McMartin>
I've seen what the guys who really know what they're doing can make happen
11:33
<&McMartin>
I'm not even beginning to try to do that
11:36
<&McMartin>
The assembler source is like twice the amount of RAM in a VIC-20 :D
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12:16
<@Tarinaky>
2 hours to go...
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12:19
<@froztbyte>
<Syka_> ...you know, the last time someone dared me, it was to jump off a 15m rock into water
12:20
<@froztbyte>
you should, it's fun
12:20
< Syka_>
froztbyte: i like life, though
12:20
<@froztbyte>
so do I
12:20
<@froztbyte>
doing those kind of things is how I feel it
12:21
<@Tarinaky>
Jump from a weather balloon, without a parachute.
12:21
<@froztbyte>
do I have a wingsuit, or some other cool mechanism to catch me?
12:21
<@Tarinaky>
There's a double mattress at the landing site.
12:22
<@froztbyte>
I don't believe that falls into "landing" as much as "crash"
12:22
<@Tarinaky>
Lithobraking.
12:22
<@froztbyte>
humans aren't very good at turning flaps up to 25 degrees
12:25 * Tarinaky begins nawing on his arm to escape the lecture.
12:31 * Stalker sacrifices a g to appease the Tarinaky-god.
12:31
<@Tarinaky>
English is a silly language.
12:34
<@Tarinaky>
Pretty sure I can do the elipses now though.
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14:24
<@Tarinaky>
Argh. Now I remember what I was strugling with.
14:24
<@Tarinaky>
Because Anno cheats :/
14:30
<@Tarinaky>
Anno's code, as far as i see, doesn't respect Kepler's second law :p
14:31
<~Vornicus>
yeah, anno's stuff is pretty cheaty.
14:33
<@Tarinaky>
Angular velocity is usually written as omega and is the rate of change of angle right?
14:34
<@Tarinaky>
Because I'm getting confused by something. :/
14:34
<@Tarinaky>
Oh wait. Ignore me.
14:34
<@Tarinaky>
I'm blind. Okay.
14:43
<@Tarinaky>
Well... I found the relation for instantaneous angular velocity and instantanous distance from mass...
14:43
<@Tarinaky>
I /probably/ need to be using Kepler's 2nd law directly... somehow... to be getting the actual line equation for the ellipse :/
14:46
<@Tarinaky>
Also, differential equations -.-
14:47
<~Vornicus>
Good lord. You're trying too hard I suspect.
14:48
<@Tarinaky>
Quite likely.
14:48
<@Tarinaky>
I am not very good at spotting the problem I need to solve.
14:48
<~Vornicus>
What are you trying to do overall?
14:49
<@Tarinaky>
Work out an object's position at arbitrary time.
14:50
<~Vornicus>
I see.
14:50
<@Tarinaky>
And draw the ellipse that represents that motion.
14:50
<~Vornicus>
lord.
14:51
<@Tarinaky>
s/represents/that thing will move along/
14:51
<@Tarinaky>
>.<
14:52
<~Vornicus>
A bit more than I can chew when I am really aiming to go to bed
14:52
<@Tarinaky>
Yeah.
14:56
<@Tarinaky>
So far I have f(r1, r2, G) = (r1+(r2-r1 / h(t)) cos k(t), sin k(t)) where I don't know what h or k are.
14:59
<@Tarinaky>
With r1 and r2 as the periapsis/apsis...
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15:05
<@Tarinaky>
h(t) = 1 - abs(cos k(t)/4) I think...
15:05
<@Tarinaky>
No, wait...
15:06
<@Tarinaky>
Yeah, I don't want to divide by h...
15:07
<@Tarinaky>
I don't want it to be negative, hence the abs... and I want it to 'cycle' slower than the x coordinate...
15:07 * Tarinaky checks by plotting it.
15:07 ErikMesoy is now known as Prelzelle
15:13
<@Tarinaky>
Ah, no. I did a silly.
15:15
<@Tarinaky>
I /think/ this looks right http://www.wolframalpha.com/share/clip?f=d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e96sq7f9 rp1
15:17
<@Tarinaky>
So that just leaves k(t)... to figure out what angle corresponds to what time...
15:30
<@Tarinaky>
If... if I take the average radius, use that to calculate the period... Can I use that to find the time for the two extreme values of angular velocity.... And scale k to that...
15:37
< abudhabi>
If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough!
15:47
<@Tarinaky>
Argh. Wolfram Alpha isn't working :/
15:48 ^Xires is now known as Xires
15:48
<@Tarinaky>
It's tantalisingly not showing me the output element I actually want.
15:48
<@Tarinaky>
Just a blank space with the label.
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15:59
<@Tarinaky>
I seem to have gone to an incredible length to plot a sinosoid :/
16:05
< abudhabi>
You appear to be working on accurately simulating the motions of celestial bodies. I just went with "draw an animated star system". :V
16:08
<@Tarinaky>
The cost of that though is that your star system doesn't actually look like a star system.
16:10
<&ToxicFrog>
Personally I'd just look at the source for an existing implementation like xephem~
16:11
< abudhabi>
Tarinaky: I beg to differ. Most people couldn't tell apart the Copernician and Keplerian models. Indeed, I doubt most people could name the planets.
16:12
<@Tarinaky>
abudhabi: People who play Aurora can.
16:12
<@Tarinaky>
People who'd play my game would care.
16:12
<@Tarinaky>
I have a particular set of users in mind and I know they'd complain :/
16:13
< abudhabi>
People who play Aurora a play a game where there's no Newtonian motion and orbits are perfect circles.
16:13
< abudhabi>
-a
16:13
<@Tarinaky>
And they complain about it.
16:13
< abudhabi>
Does Steve listen?
16:13
<@Tarinaky>
Anyone who cared enough to play a Newtonian Aurora would care even more.
16:14
<@Tarinaky>
ToxicFrog: Xephem doesn't appear to have available source code.
16:15
<@Tarinaky>
Oh... wait...
16:15
<&ToxicFrog>
That seems...unlikely
16:15
<@Tarinaky>
That's a really weird way of doing business. o.o
16:16
<@Tarinaky>
Sorry, the whole proprietary license/buy now thing confused me.
16:16
<@Tarinaky>
Inb4 it's written in a language I can't read, like Perl.
16:16
<&ToxicFrog>
...oh, wow, that's a weird license
16:16
<&ToxicFrog>
It's written in C.
16:16
<&ToxicFrog>
Ok, xephem may no be the best choice~
16:18
<&ToxicFrog>
Tarinaky: this may be useful: http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/orbit/orbit.2d.html
16:21
<@Tarinaky>
Thanks. I'll have to read it later though, I've turned my brain into mush.
16:22
<@Tarinaky>
Is always the way that by the time I get help I've forced my head into a brick wall enough that I can't think any more :/
16:34 Prelzelle is now known as ErikMesoy
16:37
<&ToxicFrog>
Take a KSP break~
16:37
< RichyB>
Have you seen the research mode in KSP?
16:38
<@TheWatcher>
Which reminds me, I need to decide whether to leave Jeb and Bill on the mun after the unfortunate... incident with the engines, or send out a rescue shit, or build a munbase around them.. hmm
16:38
<@TheWatcher>
*ship
16:38
< RichyB>
It's really fun but I got stuck without enough rocket available to be able to reach Mun & also having exhausted all available research avenues.
16:39
<@TheWatcher>
(not all my ksp designs are shit~)
16:39
<&ToxicFrog>
RichyB: yes, I noodled around with it some yesterday
16:39
<&ToxicFrog>
RichyB: all? Including EVA, surface samples from different regions of Kerbin, etc?
16:40
< RichyB>
How do you get points for EVA? There are points available for different regions of Kerbin?
16:40
< RichyB>
I've had Jeb jump out of the ship, fly around a bit and fly back in. It didn't seem to add any research points.
16:40
<@TheWatcher>
Right click on them when on EVA
16:40
<&ToxicFrog>
Yes. Kerbin and the Mun are both divided into different biomes, each of which has different research results for landed crew report, surface sample, and low-altitude flight crew report.
16:41
<&ToxicFrog>
EVA, then right click on them while still EVAd.
16:41
< RichyB>
I think I also made the mistake of doing all of the "mysterious goo" research with antenna instead of landing back on Kerbin and getting the full benefit.
16:41
<&ToxicFrog>
Anyways, you can get a bunch of research by taking surface samples at, e.g., KSC, grasslands, mountains, desert, the poles, shores, the middle of the ocean, etc
16:42
< RichyB>
Interesting! I shall have to take another shot at this.
16:42
<&ToxicFrog>
The way the math works, regardless of whether you transmit it back or carry it back, it converges at around 1.25x the base research value - but you need more transmissions to reach that point.
16:42
< RichyB>
I was disappointed that there doesn't seem to be a research result for taking a reading from mysterious-goo while aerobraking on wings of fire; you just get the same report as you normally would from the upper atmosphere.
16:43
< RichyB>
I was hoping that the mysterious goo would do something interesting while being burnt at a couple thousand Kelvin. :)
16:43
<&ToxicFrog>
Likewise.
16:47
<@Tarinaky>
You don't even need a lot of Rocket to get on the Mun.
16:49
<&ToxicFrog>
Tarinaky: you probably at least want landing legs, though.
16:49
<@Tarinaky>
And each of the craters counts differently.
16:49
<@Tarinaky>
They were like... the second thing I unlocked.
16:50
<&ToxicFrog>
Although, that reminds me - science from recovery depends on the mission. If you've already recovered rockets from suborbital and orbital missions, you can do a flyby of the mun for some science.
16:50
<@Tarinaky>
You can get a Minmus flyby for not much more fuel than a Munar flyby.
16:50
<@Tarinaky>
Less fuel than a Munar landing.
16:51
<&ToxicFrog>
True.
16:51
<@Tarinaky>
Which is a whole stack more Research.
16:51
< RichyB>
I don't think I can make it to Mun without NERVAs or at least struts.
16:51
< RichyB>
ENOSKILL
16:52
<@Tarinaky>
... What /do/ you have unlocked?
16:52
<@Tarinaky>
Because struts are also really early and really cheap.
16:52
<@Tarinaky>
Have you actually launched any missions at all? :p
16:52
< RichyB>
Just the second tier stuff, I think.
16:53
<@Tarinaky>
Have you done a suborbital flight? Have you done an orbital flight?
16:53
< RichyB>
Yes, yes. I've put up a couple of flights with mysterious goo, completed orbits at 240km.
16:54
<@Tarinaky>
Is that the only Science you have?
16:54
<@Tarinaky>
Have ytou been getting crew reports?
16:55
<@Tarinaky>
Also: you don't need NERVA for Munar landing.
16:55
<@Tarinaky>
You don't need NERVA until you start thinking about interplanetary travel.
16:55
< RichyB>
Crew reports, yes. Transmitting one back home each flight, plus keeping one on landing.
16:56
< RichyB>
I haven't tried landing on different parts of Kerbin, though.
16:56
<@Tarinaky>
Have you got a Materials Lab yet?
16:56
< RichyB>
What's that?
16:56
<@Tarinaky>
It's like... the second experiment you unlock.
16:57
<@Tarinaky>
I forget the name.
16:57
< RichyB>
Don't think I've unlocked it. Only experiment I've unlocked is the canister of Mysterious Goo.
16:57
<@Tarinaky>
Bigger than the mystery goo, worth more Science, has a worse transmission efficiency.
16:57
<@Tarinaky>
I have no idea how you can have exhausted all of your science without unlocking anything.
16:57
< RichyB>
Right. That's next on my to-get list, I think, so that I can use that to bootstrap struts. :)
16:57
< RichyB>
*then* the moon
16:57
< Syka_>
you can run around on kerbin
16:57
< Syka_>
getting mud
16:57
< Syka_>
which is still worth science??
16:58
<@Tarinaky>
EVA reports from orbit are probably worth more.
16:58
< RichyB>
Right now I can't build rockets big enough to get to 240km orbits with more than, like, single-digit litres of fuel left. :)
16:58
< RichyB>
JUST enough to deorbit. :)
16:58
<@Tarinaky>
I'm tempted to suggest uninstall.exe :p
16:59
< RichyB>
Heh. Planning to nuke that save and try again.
16:59
< RichyB>
There's a certain element of "I am not fantastic at rocketry" in this. :)
17:00
<@Tarinaky>
I have no idea what you could possibly have spent your science on.
17:00
<@Tarinaky>
Because your flights should be easily worth ~100 science each.
17:01
<@Tarinaky>
Anyway, I need to go to lectures and my laptop battery is shagged.
17:01
<@Tarinaky>
Talk later.
17:01
<&ToxicFrog>
I think the "base set" of science you can get right from the beginning is something like: crew reports landed, at low altitude, and at high altitude in every biome; surface samples in every biome; crew and EVA reports from suborbital and orbital flight; craft recovery from atmospheric, suborbital, and orbital flight.
17:01
<&ToxicFrog>
And that is a lot of science.
17:01
<&ToxicFrog>
That said
17:01
<&ToxicFrog>
100 science per flight? What?
17:01
<&ToxicFrog>
I'm seeing 10-20.
17:01
< RichyB>
I'm seeing 10 on a good flight.
17:11 himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds]
17:24
< Xon2>
ToxicFrog, someone on spacebattles managed to get 1700 on a single flight in KSP
17:24 Xon2 is now known as Xon
17:24
< Xon>
funny enough, one way probes with transmitters can send a lot =p
17:49 Harlow [Harlow@Nightstar-b902fba7.chi.megapath.net] has joined #code
18:05 Derakon [chriswei@Nightstar-a3b183ae.ca.comcast.net] has joined #code
18:05 mode/#code [+ao Derakon Derakon] by ChanServ
18:06 * Derakon gets to the bit in his documentation-writing where he has to document the procedure he used to make the backup hard drive images.
18:06
<&Derakon>
Which involved booting the computer-to-be-backed-up off of a live CD, running a dd invocation that dumped the data over the network, and receiving that data on another computer where it got stored and tar'd/gzip'd.
18:06
<&Derakon>
Unfortunately, I can't find the relevant invocations on either side. ._.
18:07 thalass [thalass@Nightstar-141785b5.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds]
18:08
<&Derakon>
Pretty sure that the second computer just had an SSH daemon running.
18:12
<&Derakon>
Does this look reasonable to people who know what they're doing? http://www.pantz.org/software/dd/drivecopywithsshanddd.html
18:15 LurtzCZ [Lurtz@Nightstar-0604e0ca.cust.termsnet.cz] has joined #code
18:31
<@Tarinaky>
ToxicFrog: the Junior Materials lab is worth 75 to 100 base science depending on where you are.
18:31
<@Tarinaky>
That's my 100.
18:32 Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody
18:38
< RichyB>
Derakon, yes, that's all correct.
18:39
< RichyB>
The "dd if=/dev/zero of=0bits bs=20M; rm 0bits" is a neat trick. It's not -strictly- necessary.
18:39
<&Derakon>
Yeah, I guessed that.
18:39
<&Derakon>
I don't really understand it. Isn't /dev/zero an infinite source of zeros? How does that affect the disk?
18:39
<&Derakon>
...oh, you fill the disk with zeros and then delete them?
18:40
< RichyB>
It creates a file that will take up all of the free space on the disk with blocks containing just zeroes.
18:40
< RichyB>
It is expected to finish with "Error: no space left on device" and then the "rm 0bits" immediately gets rid of the file it has created.
18:40
<&Derakon>
Righto.
18:41
< RichyB>
Of course, *some* filesystems (I think plan9's fossil and ZFS, for instace, maybe btrfs) can do block-level deduplication, which would prevent that trick from working since all of the millions of zero blocks would just share the same data pointer. :)
18:42
< RichyB>
Specifically, the ones which have content-addressed storage do deduplication of blocks for free as a side-effect of their design. :)
18:42
<&Derakon>
All of the computers I'd be backing up are running Windows. I don't think the filesystem is that clever.
18:42
< RichyB>
I would be surprised if "dd if=/dev/sda" worked on Windows.
18:43
<&Derakon>
You mean, through Cygwin or something?
18:44
<&ToxicFrog>
Tarinaky: you're talking about later in the game than I am, then.
18:44
<@Tarinaky>
I... had the materials lab before I was even in orbit :/
18:45
< RichyB>
Derakon, oh, I forgot that you're booting them off Knoppix. :)
18:45
<&Derakon>
That was the plan, yes. :)
18:45
<&Derakon>
And then do system restores similarly, only running dd off of the "host" computer instead.
18:50
<&ToxicFrog>
Tarinaky: did you rush research, then?
18:50 Harlow [Harlow@Nightstar-b902fba7.chi.megapath.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: BED]
18:50
<@Tarinaky>
I didn't rush anything :/
18:51
<@Tarinaky>
I just played the game o.p
18:51
<&ToxicFrog>
I don't know what the tech tree looks like, and it's not evident where you need to go to unlock better research components at first
18:51
<&ToxicFrog>
So I ended up getting better engines and whatnot
18:53
<&ToxicFrog>
Derakon: not quite, I think - system restore is just reversing the pipeline.
18:54
<&ToxicFrog>
So, on the system to be restored, ssh user@host dd if=image.gz | gunzip | dd of=/dev/sdX
18:54
<&Derakon>
Ah, right.
18:55
<&Derakon>
Thanks.
19:29
<&ToxicFrog>
Hmm.
19:29
<&ToxicFrog>
There is a bug in my queue length predictor.
19:29
<&ToxicFrog>
The answers it gives are correct in every particular iff time travel is possible.
19:30
<&Derakon>
I don't see a bug.
19:30
<&Derakon>
I see a future Nobel Prize laureate~
19:39
<@Tarinaky>
Possible, or in use?
19:39
<&ToxicFrog>
Tarinaky: well, it depends on the queue~
19:39
<@Tarinaky>
Because I'm pretty sure the cutting edge in Quantum Physics says there might be quantum time travel (provided they form only particular types of time-geometry~)
19:45
<@Tarinaky>
There's probably enough physics to make a time machine or an ansible impossible though.
19:46
< jeroud>
ETOOMUCHPHYSICS
19:46
<@Tarinaky>
Okay :(
19:48
< jeroud>
That was a hypothetical error code your time machine would face, not an objection to the discussion.
19:48
<@Tarinaky>
Oh.
19:49
< jeroud>
I find the concept amusing.
19:49
<@Tarinaky>
If time travel is possible about the only thing you won't be able to do with it is travel through time?
19:49
< jeroud>
"I cannae do it, cap'n. There's too much physics."
20:14 Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel
20:37
<@Tarinaky>
Okay, time to go through this page to see if I can lrn2orbitals
20:44 Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK2]
20:49
<@Tarinaky>
According to this there is no analytical solution. I have to do it by sampling.
20:52
<&ToxicFrog>
no analytical solution to the two-body case? That seems unlikely
20:52
<@Tarinaky>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler's_equation#Inverse_problem
20:53
<@Tarinaky>
My bad. Meerly no analytical solution I wish to attempt~
20:54
<@Tarinaky>
I still don't know what I'm doing :/
20:54 celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-90d86201.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code
20:54 mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ
20:55
<&ToxicFrog>
Did the link I gave you earlier help at all?
20:55
<&ToxicFrog>
Also, I'm still not clear on what your underlying goal is
20:56
<@Tarinaky>
Yeah, I'm reading it now. I'm stick midway through it.
20:56
<@Tarinaky>
Before I had to go get wikipedia to help >.<
20:56
<@Tarinaky>
ToxicFrog: I thought I said?
20:56
<@Tarinaky>
Sampling isn't a problem.
20:57
<&ToxicFrog>
If so I don't remember, or didn't see it.
20:57 Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz]
20:58
<@Tarinaky>
1) Calculate position in cartesian space that an object is in at a discrete time interval
20:58
<@Tarinaky>
2) Draw the elipse on which it is moving.
20:59
< ErikMesoy>
engineer solution: use lookup table
20:59
<&ToxicFrog>
We have an XY problem.
21:00
<&ToxicFrog>
Why do you want to do this?
21:00
<&ToxicFrog>
What is your goal?
21:00
<@Tarinaky>
Asteroid Mining 4X Game recycled IN SPACE!
21:01
< ErikMesoy>
Isn't asteroid mining automatically in space?
21:01
<@Tarinaky>
That's the joke.
21:02
<@Tarinaky>
I fully expect to get bored or avalanched with work before I can get anywhere near that goal though.
21:02
<&ToxicFrog>
Wouldn't it be easier to generate the ellipses first, then infer the orbital characteristics from that?
21:02
<@Tarinaky>
Hence why I'm focusing on the Y problem rather than the X.
21:02
<@Tarinaky>
Problem is, I only have the orbital characteristics and need to work backwards to the ellipses.
21:03
<&ToxicFrog>
right. I'm asking why you are doing it that way.
21:03
<@Tarinaky>
Because that's the data I have.
21:04
<&ToxicFrog>
Where are you getting this data from?
21:04
<@Tarinaky>
Wikipedia.
21:04
<&ToxicFrog>
Oh, this is asteroid mining of real asteroids?
21:04
<@Tarinaky>
I'd like to get the planets working first.
21:04
<&ToxicFrog>
...with real planets?
21:04
<@Tarinaky>
Yes.
21:05
<&ToxicFrog>
But, um
21:05
<@Tarinaky>
I am fond of Earth.
21:08
<&ToxicFrog>
Wiki lists semi-major axis and eccentricity, which trivially give you the non-rotated form of the ellipse
21:09
<@Tarinaky>
Right, well... in that case I'm generating the ellipses first and infering orbital characteristics from that.
21:10
<&ToxicFrog>
From longitude of ascending node, inclination, and argument of periapsis, you can also get the rotation of ellipse (around all three axes), although it's kind of awkward (generally you want "angle of major axis", which no-one in orbital mechanics actually uses directly)
21:10
<@Tarinaky>
But all things being equal, I might as well build up the ellipsis from the same set of points as the lookup table I'm building for x,y position.
21:10
<@Tarinaky>
Because /code re-use/
21:11
<@Tarinaky>
GL_LINES
21:11 Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline]
21:11
< ErikMesoy>
Angle of major axis relative to what?
21:12
<&ToxicFrog>
ErikMesoy: an arbitrary angle 0 that is consistent for the entire system you are modeling.
21:12
<&ToxicFrog>
Tarinaky: also, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler_orbit
21:13
<&ToxicFrog>
That discusses at length the equations governing simplified two-body Keplerian orbits where one body is much less massive than the other, i.e. the case of planets or asteroids orbiting a star.
21:14
<&ToxicFrog>
Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_modeling#Keplerian_orbit_model
21:14
<@Tarinaky>
I'm still working on the first "ORbits in 2D" link.
21:14
<@Tarinaky>
I am not a fast reader when it comes to comprehension.#
21:14
< abudhabi>
Tarinaky: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5cdjv9pr95pc1qc/SolSystemBodies.txt
21:14
< abudhabi>
I can also provide semicolon-delimited, if you wish.
21:18
<@Tarinaky>
abudhabi: I am not in any position to deal with that data file atm.
21:18
<@Tarinaky>
Thanks anyway though.
21:19
<&ToxicFrog>
Tarinaky: the wiki links are more digestible, I think
21:19
<@Tarinaky>
The one with the Mathematica code is more appliable.
21:20
<@Tarinaky>
'More apparently appliable'.
21:25
<&ToxicFrog>
Tarinaky: so, I think the thing to do here is: given semi-major axis and eccentricity, you have an elliptical orbit track
21:26
<&ToxicFrog>
Given semi-major axis and mass, you have mean motion: n = \sqrt{\frac{G(M+m)}{a^3}}
21:26
<@Tarinaky>
I know. The bit I'm strugling with is how to get Anomaly from time.
21:26
<&ToxicFrog>
Where G is the gravitational constant, M and m are the masses of the primary and the oribiting body (you can just use the mass of Sol here), and a is the semi-major axis.
21:27
<&ToxicFrog>
Oh wait, I've missed a step
21:27
<&ToxicFrog>
Angle to position is trivial, the trick is time to angle
21:27
<@Tarinaky>
Yup.
21:28
<&ToxicFrog>
KSP already does this, I wish they'd publish the code~
21:36
<@Tarinaky>
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/6789/find-true-anomaly-given-period-e ccentricity-and-time
21:36
<@Tarinaky>
Suggests I should try using Newton's Method to find eccentric anomaly from mean anomaly.
22:12 Derakon[AFK2] [chriswei@Nightstar-a3b183ae.ca.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: leaving]
22:24 himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code
22:24 mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ
22:42 * Tarinaky o.os at why he was given this formula to find the Period when it's very obviously silly.
22:45
<@Tarinaky>
Ah! Didn't see the power.
22:49
<@Tarinaky>
...
22:49
<@Tarinaky>
true_anomaly = 2.0*atan(sqrt((1+self.eccentricity)/(1-self.eccentricity))*tan(eccentric_anomaly /2))
22:49
<@Tarinaky>
ValueError: math domain error
22:49
<@Tarinaky>
Stackoverflow indicates that error is associated with calling a function outside of its defined domain.
22:50
<@Tarinaky>
I... don't see a problem...
22:50
<@Tarinaky>
tan(0) is defined right?
22:52
<@Tarinaky>
Ah, found the problem.
22:53 ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep
22:54
<@Tarinaky>
Quick question: how can I get Wolfram Alpha to take a list and graph it in spherical coordinates?
22:55
<@Tarinaky>
I want to verify this looks like a circle :/
22:55 LurtzCZ [Lurtz@Nightstar-0604e0ca.cust.termsnet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds]
22:56
<@Tarinaky>
My values for true-anomaly look wrong :/
22:59
<@Tarinaky>
I dunno if I'm missing something here, but I kindof expected it to be monotone increasing >.<
22:59
<@Tarinaky>
[0.0, -2.3053253643164076, 1.7140127275315773, 0.41122744705338077, -2.8924111889759714, -2.194740537166049, 0.8213614766050917, -2.4938021436187925, 0.5148315722204333, -2.7919598093467326, 1.9365880275170277, 0.35059043612017626, 1.635083817694757, 2.8960116926623063, 1.3320669671914938, -0.26450587196440317, 1.027570267797174, -0.5716844425671204, 0.7217639737482189, -0.8780310731556848, -2.4519891252456683, -1.1831982720303191, 0.700495178803906
23:03
<@Tarinaky>
Only thing I can think of is a unit fail somewhere... but I checked units when I copied the formulas :/
23:21
<@Tarinaky>
And now, attempting to graph my points to see if there's a pattern, I get an error on glEnd() o.o
23:23
<&McMartin>
have you submitted an illegal number of points?
23:23
<&McMartin>
Like, if it's GL_TRIANGLES and the number of points isn't divisible by 3
23:24
<@Tarinaky>
Ah, being a derp.
23:25
<@Tarinaky>
Was doing matrix operations between the begin/end.
23:27
<@Tarinaky>
I'm having difficulty getting any kind of intelligible plot out.
23:28 Turaiel[Offline] [Brandon@Nightstar-949d7402.resnet.mtu.edu] has quit [Client closed the connection]
23:28
<@Tarinaky>
Any ideas?
23:29
<&McMartin>
If I wanted a plot I think I'd do a GL_LINE_STRIP?
23:29
<&McMartin>
I dunno
23:29 Turaiel[Offline] [Brandon@Nightstar-949d7402.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #code
23:29
<@Tarinaky>
I only want to plot to troubleshoot.
23:30
<@Tarinaky>
And I'm not getting anything intelligible enough for the type of geometry to matter.
23:30
<@Tarinaky>
All of the points are being drawn in very close proximity on a line. Which... is not an ellipse.
23:31
<@Tarinaky>
Ah wait... Got something more useful.
23:34
<@Tarinaky>
Well, the vertexes /are/ on a circle...
23:34
<@Tarinaky>
But the angles are not in the right order :/
23:36
<@Tarinaky>
Which means I'm not generating True Anomaly right... still.
23:36
<@Tarinaky>
*sigh*
23:41
<@Tarinaky>
https://github.com/Tarinaky/DuelFieldStars/blob/qt/solar.py << More or less stand-alone, apart from the dependancies... If you want to see the crazy-ass figure it draws.
23:45
<@Tarinaky>
Oh man. Derp.
23:48
<@Tarinaky>
No... that wasn't it :/
23:49
<@Reiv>
Tarinaky: Are you trying to rewrite Aurora?
23:50
<@Tarinaky>
Only crossed with KSP.
23:50
<@Tarinaky>
With Blackjack and Hookers.
23:53
<@Reiv>
Man, good luck.
23:53
<@Tarinaky>
I'm gonna play KSP and take a break.
23:53 Turaiel[Offline] [Brandon@Nightstar-949d7402.resnet.mtu.edu] has quit [[NS] Quit: Bouncer terminated]
23:53
<@Reiv>
Simultaneously, I salute you. You're actually showing more dedication than I, who've been meaning to have a shot at these things for a while.
23:54
<@Tarinaky>
I'm not that far.
23:54
<@Tarinaky>
So far all I've done is dick around with ellipses and revise OpenGL.
23:57 Turaiel[Offline] [Brandon@Nightstar-949d7402.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #code
23:59 Turaiel[Offline] [Brandon@Nightstar-949d7402.resnet.mtu.edu] has quit [Client closed the connection]
--- Log closed Tue Oct 22 00:00:17 2013
code logs -> 2013 -> Mon, 21 Oct 2013< code.20131020.log - code.20131022.log >

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