| --- Log opened Fri Aug 30 00:00:54 2013 |
| 00:29 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:31 | | * McMartin eyes his co-worker |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | He has written a boot sector that dumps itself to the screen in hex along with the company slogan in ASCII |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | In 16-bit assembler, because boot sector |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | That's a fine feat of lightsaber chair fighting. |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | Maybe we can have this be our T-Shirt~ |
| 00:32 | <@TheWatcher[T-2]> | ... |
| 00:33 | <@TheWatcher[T-2]> | Next up: bouncing scrolling text and chip tune music |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | I would wear the shit out of a T-shirt that did that~ |
| 00:33 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:36 | <&McMartin> | Sadly, I actually still remember the segment that holds screen character data~ |
| 00:36 | <&McMartin> | [b800:0000], in two-byte words, high byte is color/background nybbles (woo 16 colors), low byte is the ASCII code |
| 00:38 | <@Reiv> | nibbles? |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | 4 bits. |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | Half a byte, you see~ |
| 00:40 | <@Reiv> | snrk |
| 00:40 | <@Reiv> | I should have guessed~ |
| 00:41 | < AnnoDomini> | Now you've done and reminded me of my computer architecture class. |
| 00:43 | < AnnoDomini> | Damn it. One of my partitions on this laptop is FREEDOS. And has the assignments for that. |
| 00:44 | <&McMartin> | Ha ha, VP of product's reaction is "we need a T-Shirt of this", so maybe we'll get them after all~ |
| 00:46 | <&Derakon> | If my lab had a T-shirt, it would probably have white noise on the front, and an image of a cell on the back. |
| 00:46 | <&Derakon> | (Since we specialize in very-low-light microscopy and post-processing to pull signal out of noise) |
| 00:51 | <~Vornicus> | No, it's white noise plus blacklight or glow-in-the-dark cell |
| 00:53 | < [R]> | http://john.kaniarz.com/2012/09/designing-attack-damage-formulas.html <-- This guy isn't being very clear here. Why is he dividing health by the damageMultiplier? What's `x`? What's `c`? If `c` is the cap, why is it not constant? |
| 00:54 | < [R]> | Also I suspect there's an error: unless `c` is 100, the percentage formula doesn't give a percentage. |
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| 01:37 | <&Derakon> | Vorn: well, the point is that images that look to us like they're just noise can have surprising amounts of signal hidden in them if you use the right algorithms. |
| 01:38 | <&Derakon> | I've seen useful data reconstructed out of what I would have sworn was pure snow. |
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| 02:50 | <&McMartin> | http://hylang.org |
| 02:50 | <&McMartin> | Relevant to seveal folks in the channel, I imagine |
| 02:55 | < [R]> | http://shotgunshuffle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/WTF-Toys-R-Us-4.jpg |
| 03:04 | <@Reiv> | ... wait, you can do lisp in python? |
| 03:05 | <@Reiv> | I thought there were Certain Features a language needed to be able to do the proper tail-end recursion functional programming tomfoolery to begin with |
| 03:11 | <@Alek> | you can lisp in any language. |
| 03:16 | <&Derakon> | Like Reiv said, languages don't always handle tail-recursion properly. |
| 03:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: there are various mechanical translations you can do to get TCO semantics even for target architectures (like the JVM) that don't support it. |
| 03:18 | <&McMartin> | Clojure does not do them |
| 03:19 | <&McMartin> | But they can in fact be done. |
| 03:19 | < Vorntastic> | Tail call recursion is nigh-trivially translateable into iteration, which is why the optimization can happen. |
| 03:19 | <&McMartin> | Full tail call elimination, however, is only trivial if your compiler uses continuation-passing style as its intermediate representation. |
| 03:19 | <&McMartin> | Clojure makes you kind of do this by hand with the trampoline. |
| 03:20 | < Vorntastic> | ...trampoline? |
| 03:21 | <&McMartin> | (In practice, tail recursion is kind of inconvenient and namespace polluting. If your language has it (read: is Scheme specifically), then the named let is much nicer. Clojure's loop-recur is a subset of that.) |
| 03:21 | <&McMartin> | http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/trampoline |
| 03:22 | <&McMartin> | "algorithms requiring mutual |
| 03:22 | <&McMartin> | recursion without stack consumption" |
| 03:22 | <&McMartin> | being the use case for fully general TCO. |
| 03:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | For non-mutual recursion it has loop/recur. |
| 03:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | Scala uses the @tailrec annotation. |
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| 04:14 | <@Reiv> | ... so does Haskell do it the messy way, then? |
| 04:15 | <&McMartin> | Haskell it Just Works |
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| 04:18 | <@Reiv> | In ways that the others don't? |
| 04:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | It also Just Works in Lua and in most Lisps |
| 04:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | Note that all of these have their own compiler and/or VM |
| 04:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | Clojure, Scala, and Hylang all target existing VMs not designed with tail call elimination in mind |
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| 15:14 | < AnnoDomini> | Why does imgur uploading take more time per image when you upload a whole lot of them? |
| 15:28 | <@gnolam> | Is it sending them in parallel? |
| 15:37 | < AnnoDomini> | No, sequentially. |
| 15:38 | < Xon> | probably a deliberate back-off |
| 16:33 | < [R]> | "Because of encrypted connections zoosk coins hack is impossible to be detected." |
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| 20:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aaaaaaaaaaaaaa |
| 20:30 | < Wires> | Bbbbbbbbbbbb |
| 20:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Stuff is on fire and me and my immediate boss (who just transferred into this team last month) are the only people in the office |
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| 21:14 | < Wires> | Hmm. I didn't get an answer yesterday... Is SDL2 worth upgrading to? |
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| 21:16 | <&McMartin> | Probably |
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| 21:19 | < Wires> | I'm guessing there's a "depends" there somewhere? |
| 21:19 | < Wires> | 'Cause SDL1 seems to have everything I need. |
| 21:20 | < [R]> | Might be worth it to abstract it enough that swapping won't be a bitch? |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | That's actually pretty hard |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | So, I don't have a lot of time right now, but, briefly: |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | SDL1 supports a shitload of ancient platforms |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | SDL2 doesn't, but *does* have targets for iOS and Android native |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | SDL2 has two things that are compelling enough that I'll switch my stuff to it eventually |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | (1) Logical vs. Physical screen size, so I can program to, say, 480p as a pixel art game and it'll run 1080p fullscreen with no changes to render logic |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | (2) XInput support so that the LT and RT buttons on my gamepad work |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | But the translation isn't generally trivial; SDL2 explicitly divorces GPU-stored images from CPU-stored ones. |
| 21:36 | <&McMartin> | SDL1 tries to do it on its own and isn't great at it. This usually doesn't matter, but it can. |
| 21:36 | <&McMartin> | But even if you *do* need stuff in SDL2, it's not a great time to switch, because the support libraries aren't there yet. |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | Oh right |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | It's not compelling *for me*, but another possible compelling reason would ben |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | *be |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | (3) You want to use OpenGL 3.0 or later and use SDL to handle the windowing system bullshit |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | (4) You want more than one window open at once |
| 21:38 | <&McMartin> | (SDL 1 has a global notion of "the screen" and it also can only set up contexts for OpenGL 2.1 or earlier) |
| 21:38 | < Wires> | OK, so my answer would be no. |
| 21:39 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, reason (1) is enough to convince me to switch eventually, but I've built out SDL_mixer and SDL_image wrappers and stuff that wont' work with SDL2_mixer and SDL2_image, neither of which are in my repos, either. |
| 21:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | And for me (1) and (4) would be killer if I still used SDL for anything. |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | The real issue now is that SDL1 is noticably obsolete (and has been since, oh, Windows 7 came out, maybe a little before) and SDL2 is still bleeding edge |
| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | So "wait for SDL2 to stop bleeding" is my real plan. |
| 21:56 | < Wires> | Well, I still use WinXP. :P |
| 21:57 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, SDL1 evolved to match that. But it was designed for Win95 and Linux with OpenGL 1.x. |
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| 22:14 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't think SDL2 is going to stop being bleeding edge. |
| 22:15 | <@Tarinaky> | Too much Second System Syndrome. |
| 22:15 | < AnnoDomini> | Has to, eventually. |
| 22:15 | < AnnoDomini> | It'll eventually gather enough crust to scab over. |
| 22:15 | < AnnoDomini> | They'll be rolling out SDL3 in 10-15 years. :P |
| 22:15 | <@Tarinaky> | It can (easily) fail first. |
| 22:16 | <@Tarinaky> | SDL3 doesn't require SDL2 to ever be in a stable state. |
| 22:16 | < AnnoDomini> | A corpse stops bleeding. |
| 22:18 | <@Tarinaky> | Doesn't make it useful. |
| 22:18 | < AnnoDomini> | Does make it non-bleeding edge. |
| 22:19 | <@Tarinaky> | If all you want is for a non-moving target you can fork a revision (any revision) and not update it. |
| 22:19 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: How do you figure for second system syndrome? |
| 22:19 | <@celticminstrel> | ...is there an SDL3? |
| 22:19 | <&McMartin> | Most of the complaints I've seen are that not *enough* changed. |
| 22:19 | <&McMartin> | SDL2 literally came out a couple weeks ago, there is not an SDL3 right now. |
| 22:20 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh huh, it's finally actually released? |
| 22:20 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh, I didn't know that. |
| 22:21 | <@Tarinaky> | The original SDL was borne from neccesity and a very specific use case... |
| 22:21 | <@Tarinaky> | SDL2... not so much. |
| 22:21 | <&McMartin> | Heh. That changed when Valve hired Sam Latinga~ |
| 22:21 | <&McMartin> | SDL2 suddenly got one, very specific use case: TF2 |
| 22:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Ahh. |
| 22:22 | <@Tarinaky> | This makes mountains of sense! |
| 22:22 | <@Tamber> | Suddenly, all the hats become clear. |
| 22:22 | <&McMartin> | From what I've seen of the API, most of the changes are splitting out SDL_Surface into SDL_Surface, SDL_Texture, and SDL_Renderer. |
| 22:23 | <&McMartin> | Which is fine, imo; SDL1's SDL_Surface abstraction was just a little bit too high to get good consistent experiences across the devices I used it with. |
| 22:24 | < AnnoDomini> | In slightly related news: I've managed to get Vinland Trail to compile for Windows. If anyone's interested, I can send a link. |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | (Interestingly, while TF2 runs fine on my Linux machine with an Intel HD4000, Portal glitches out a lot) |
| 22:26 | < Syka> | McMartin: are you sure those glitches arent actually portal arg: electric boogaloo |
| 22:26 | < Syka> | have you checked the coredumps for BBS logins |
| 22:26 | < Syka> | portal arg 2* |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | Hee |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | Pretty sure. |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | I suspect it's the drivers messing up render-to-texture |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | Trying to manipulate objects on the other side of a portal gap makes the rendering flicker |
| 22:32 | | * Vornicus makes the first of several posts about solving klotski do his blogthing |
| 22:34 | <~Vornicus> | http://dantheunspeakable.com/blog/programming/klotski-1--introduction--loading-- and-internal-representation/ |
| 22:40 | <&McMartin> | A thing that came up in my LISP experiements; if you don't do that shape-based collapse it actually becomes computationally infeasible. |
| 22:46 | <~Vornicus> | 576 fold improvement is pretty major, yes. |
| --- Log closed Sat Aug 31 00:00:10 2013 |