| --- Log opened Fri Nov 30 00:00:20 2012 |
| --- Day changed Fri Nov 30 2012 |
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| 06:35 | < 629AAAJGS> | McMartin (or others), when I malloc(), a modern Linux will give me green lights without necessarily dedicating the virtual memory before it gets addressed. so I wonder, what if I allocate a very large array of references in Java, can JVM intelligently work with my kernel to do something similar, or is it merciless and populates the memory with JVM garbage that prevents the kernel from doing smart, virtual memory management? |
| 06:35 | | 629AAAJGS is now known as simon` |
| 06:37 | < McMartin> | The JVM will usually malloc a large arena and then use it agressively with little regard for locality in the C sense, since it will reorder to remove fragmentation. |
| 06:37 | < McMartin> | It will also basically never call brk(); "freed" memory is returned to the JVM, not to the OS, as a rule. |
| 06:37 | < celticminstrel> | brk? |
| 06:37 | < McMartin> | brk() is the syscall that hands chunks of memory back to the OS to give to other processes, more or less. |
| 06:45 | <@Tamber> | Not to be confused with bork(), which hands your memory back to the OS in meatball-sized chunks. |
| 06:47 | < Syka> | Tamber: you mean borkborkbork(), bork() is a special Pentium-only dividing function |
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| 07:24 | < simon`> | brk() brk() brk(). |
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| 10:45 | | summerheat [DS@F231F3.D3DE1C.166AA1.F2350A] has joined #code |
| 10:45 | < summerheat> | hello |
| 10:46 | | RichyB [richardb@Nightstar-3b2c2db2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 10:47 | < Azash> | Yes hello |
| 10:47 | < summerheat> | for a while i thought that i was invisible |
| 10:47 | < summerheat> | :p |
| 10:48 | < Azash> | Well, on IRC, two minutes is a short time |
| 10:48 | < summerheat> | thats true |
| 10:49 | < summerheat> | where r u from? |
| 10:49 | < Azash> | I don't see how that's relevant to the channel |
| 10:49 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 37 nicks [11 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 26 normal] |
| 10:50 | < summerheat> | sorry but im new here and i dont know the rules |
| 10:51 | < Azash> | I doubt it breaches any rules, it's just slightly weird when someone new joins a channel and starts asking where I'm from :p |
| 10:51 | <@TheWatcher> | (of course, the obvious answer is "From the internet!"~) |
| 10:52 | < summerheat> | i was just trying to make a conversation actually but ok |
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| 10:53 | | summerheat [DS@F231F3.D3DE1C.166AA1.F2350A] has quit [[NS] Quit: Get DanielaScript for better chat... WwW.Daniela.Kurdlander.com For Dawnloding «Daniela Script»] |
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| 10:59 | < Syka> | lol |
| 10:59 | < Syka> | hum. well, i've got nothing today |
| 10:59 | < Syka> | so far, anyway |
| 10:59 | < Syka> | only one of the little number things were taken, heh |
| 12:07 | | * Pandemic makes a mental note to nuke summerhear from orit, with a termonuke carpet bombardment |
| 12:07 | < Pandemic> | orbit* |
| 12:08 | < Syka> | thermo* |
| 12:08 | < Syka> | :P |
| 12:08 | < froztbyte> | bombardmeat* |
| 12:09 | < Syka> | that sounds like something out of a discreetly imported japanese movie froztbyte |
| 12:09 | < froztbyte> | why would you import it discreetly? |
| 12:10 | < Pandemic> | because the neon sign for the transfer truck was extra? |
| 12:11 | < Syka> | froztbyte: i dont wanna know the time imprisonment for importing half of anything from Japan :P |
| 12:11 | <@Tamber> | They inprison people in *time* now? Wow. :o |
| 12:11 | < froztbyte> | Syka: sucks to live in a shitty country |
| 12:11 | <@Tamber> | imprison* |
| 12:11 | < Syka> | Tamber: oh shush you |
| 12:11 | <@Tamber> | :D |
| 12:13 | | * Pandemic kidnaps Syka and tamber, sets them about debugging backup server #4 |
| 12:14 | | * Tamber debugs it via defenestration into the car-park. |
| 12:14 | | * Syka debugs it with a sledgehammer |
| 12:15 | < Syka> | NO INSECTS IN IT, GOV |
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| 12:18 | < Pandemic> | hrm |
| 12:19 | < Pandemic> | well it was re-purposed symantec hardware, I can't say that it didn't have that coming. |
| 12:19 | < froztbyte> | lulz |
| 12:21 | < Pandemic> | you know it is a sad state of software when a hardware appiance works better reformatted and runted into a windows box than it did with the pripriatory version of linux that it came with |
| 12:21 | < Pandemic> | something is very backwards and very wrong there |
| 12:24 | | cpux[blargh] [cpux@Nightstar-98762b0f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Well, most things get better when I kick them!] |
| 12:33 | <@TheWatcher> | Pandemic: it involved the word "symantec", it can only get worse from that point. |
| 12:36 | | * Pandemic admits that TW is right. |
| 12:38 | < Pandemic> | they showed up in person here trying to sell me something early this week |
| 12:38 | < Pandemic> | did not go well |
| 12:38 | < Pandemic> | I keep wondering if they sent that sales guy here as a form of "lets troll the newbie" |
| 12:40 | < Syka> | >symantec |
| 12:40 | < Syka> | LOL |
| 12:41 | < Syka> | we used their MessageLabs product for a year or so |
| 12:41 | < Syka> | never. fucking. again. |
| 12:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Pandemic: initiation rite. |
| 12:43 | <@TheWatcher> | If they can survive, they get to keep the job ¬¬ |
| 12:45 | < Pandemic> | lol |
| 12:45 | < Pandemic> | well, I didn't kill him.... |
| 12:46 | < Pandemic> | When I got here we where using Enterprise Vault, and Backup Exect/Net Backup combo |
| 12:46 | < Pandemic> | all threee are now gone |
| 12:46 | < Pandemic> | - an e there |
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| 14:39 | < iospace> | guilty pleasures of the iospace: looking at data sheets for electronic components to figure out how they work... and coming up with ideas to do with them :P |
| 14:41 | < froztbyte> | that's not a bad thing at all |
| 14:42 | < froztbyte> | great things/ideas are borne from "hey guys, check this out!" |
| 14:43 | < iospace> | oh yes :D |
| 14:51 | < Azash> | Good idea |
| 14:53 | <@TheWatcher> | As long as it's not followed by "Now someone just hold my beer for a minute!" |
| 14:56 | < iospace> | heh |
| 14:58 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-e83b3651.cable.rogers.com] has joined #code |
| 15:08 | < Azash> | The only way to make "hold my beer and watch this" sound worse is if it's experimental embedded code |
| 15:09 | < iospace> | :D |
| 15:09 | < iospace> | Azash: considering i work as an embedded dev :P |
| 15:12 | < RichyB> | Azash: in a pacemaker! |
| 15:13 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 15:13 | < gnolam> | A plutonium-powered pacemaker! |
| 15:17 | < thalass> | Nice, io. |
| 15:17 | < Azash> | RichyB: Set to the sweet rhythms of Meshuggah |
| 15:17 | | * Azash ponders |
| 15:18 | < Azash> | Here, hold my b.. |
| 15:19 | < iospace> | Azash: Meshuggah? Why not Anal C-gapped- |
| 15:19 | < Azash> | Because when it comes to bad rhythms to base a heart on Meshuggah takes the prize :P |
| 15:20 | < iospace> | :P |
| 15:20 | < iospace> | no no no |
| 15:20 | < iospace> | IWABO or BTBaM |
| 15:20 | < iospace> | :V |
| 15:20 | < Azash> | What are those? |
| 15:21 | < iospace> | Iwrestledabearonce and Between the Buried and Me |
| 15:21 | | * Azash checks |
| 15:21 | < iospace> | :P |
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| 15:26 | < iospace> | Azash: thoughts? :P |
| 15:27 | < Azash> | Not really my kind of metal, I'm afraid |
| 15:27 | < iospace> | :< |
| 15:28 | < iospace> | i'm more into punk myself but i do enjoy pissing off uptight moral guardians every now and then |
| 15:28 | < iospace> | ^_^ |
| 15:28 | | * Azash prefers groove over brutality |
| 15:29 | | * Azash points to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYjvKswvL2c |
| 15:29 | < iospace> | in a public area with no headphones, so i'll listen later :P |
| 15:30 | < Azash> | I suppose that's an acceptable excuse if any |
| 15:36 | < iospace> | yeah :P |
| 15:37 | | * Syka is gonna have her own coffee machine come Sunday :D |
| 15:38 | < Azash> | \o/ |
| 15:40 | | * iospace pat Syka |
| 15:40 | < RichyB> | iospace: Cake is good for that. |
| 15:40 | < iospace> | RichyB: good for what? |
| 15:41 | < RichyB> | It's mild, soft-rock pop-rock, but the lyrics are about unwise sex with people, trivial slice-of-life bullshit and satanism. |
| 15:41 | < iospace> | oh, Cake the band :P |
| 15:41 | < iospace> | i know them ^_^ |
| 15:41 | < iospace> | i like them ^_^ |
| 15:41 | < RichyB> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gygR3jJcpWs |
| 15:42 | < auREAX> | any OSX devs here? |
| 15:42 | < RichyB> | ? Satan Is My Motor, for instance. |
| 15:42 | < auREAX> | I'm not satan :< |
| 15:44 | < gnolam> | Groovy satanism you say? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4XubA6P3qs |
| 15:45 | < iospace> | auREAX: OSX is a product of the devil |
| 15:46 | < auREAX> | i disagree |
| 15:50 | < froztbyte> | <iospace> in a public area with no headphones, so i'll listen later :P |
| 15:50 | < froztbyte> | bad planning. |
| 15:51 | < iospace> | froztbyte: normally i'm still at home at this point, also i'm tlaking to people in real life |
| 15:51 | < Azash> | gnolam: Ghost? Very bueno |
| 15:51 | < froztbyte> | iospace: what's not real about IRC? :< |
| 15:52 | < Syka> | froztbyte: everyone is just AI BY THE FED MAN |
| 15:52 | < Syka> | TRYING TO CATCH YOU OUUUUT |
| 15:52 | < Syka> | also i am going to have a coffee machine and it will be awesome :> |
| 15:53 | < Azash> | IRC - Impersonating Real Characters |
| 15:54 | < auREAX> | IRC = internet relay cats |
| 15:56 | < froztbyte> | <Syka> 13/f/english, washington |
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| 16:04 | < Syka> | froztbyte: well, i'm australian |
| 16:05 | < Syka> | so having small breasts would be enough (since that's 'illegal' here) |
| 16:05 | < froztbyte> | wat |
| 16:06 | < Syka> | apparently small breasts in pr0ns is 'paedophilia' |
| 16:06 | < Syka> | because fuck yeah Australian federal government |
| 16:06 | < froztbyte> | oh |
| 16:06 | < froztbyte> | lulz |
| 16:06 | < froztbyte> | Old Pa Gubbmint knows best, Syk |
| 16:06 | < froztbyte> | don't you worry |
| 16:06 | < Syka> | heh |
| 16:07 | < Syka> | according to irssi, i have 19s lag |
| 16:07 | < froztbyte> | I don't even know what my direct latency is |
| 16:07 | < froztbyte> | I've got irssi connected to all networks, re-serving them up through irssi-proxy |
| 16:07 | < froztbyte> | then I've got quassel connected to that |
| 16:07 | < auREAX> | Syka: ah, good old australian government |
| 16:08 | < froztbyte> | and the quassel client on most machines |
| 16:08 | < auREAX> | always prepared to give the rest of the world a good laugh |
| 16:16 | < thalass> | I was under the impression that the Great Firewall was dead, Syka |
| 16:16 | < Syka> | thalass: it is! sort of |
| 16:16 | < Syka> | the INTERPOL list is mandatory blocking by ISPs (some DNS level block probably) |
| 16:19 | < thalass> | Ah. But Stephen Conroy's list, that included a dentist's website, is gone i hope. |
| 16:20 | < thalass> | anyway. It appears i've been awake for nineteen hours, with only three hours sleep before that. I don't know how i'm conscious. |
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| 18:51 | < froztbyte> | so, earlier Symantec was mentioned |
| 18:51 | < froztbyte> | http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/524876/30/0/threaded |
| 18:51 | < froztbyte> | http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/524877/30/0/threaded |
| 18:51 | < froztbyte> | http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/524878/30/0/threaded |
| 18:51 | < froztbyte> | http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/524879/30/0/threaded |
| 18:51 | < froztbyte> | all hot off the press. kinda. |
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| 18:55 | <@VV> | what's this, black hat? |
| 18:57 | < froztbyte> | nah, just general disclosure |
| 18:57 | < froztbyte> | check the timelines and attacks, though |
| 19:04 | <@VV> | Four attacks found in three days. Sweet. |
| 19:37 | < iospace> | !!! |
| 19:37 | < iospace> | YOINK :D |
| 19:39 | < iospace> | Arduino Due ordered :3 |
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| 20:21 | < iospace> | ... |
| 20:21 | < iospace> | ...................... |
| 20:21 | < iospace> | croc |
| 20:21 | < iospace> | ESD |
| 20:21 | < iospace> | safe |
| 20:21 | < iospace> | shoes |
| 20:21 | < iospace> | WHAT THE HELL |
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| 20:24 | <&Derakon> | Gonna give a short (~15-minute) talk on my work next week; gotta whip up some slides. |
| 20:24 | <&Derakon> | Don't have Powerpoint or Keynote or the like; last time I was in this situation I made the slides in HTML and then converted them to images to show in a slideshow using OSX's Preview program. |
| 20:24 | <&Derakon> | Any better suggestions? |
| 20:25 | <@TheWatcher> | Google presentation? |
| 20:27 | <&Derakon> | I wasn't aware they had a presentation mode. |
| 20:28 | <@TheWatcher> | Yep, it's not as full-featured as powerpoint, but it seems to have most things you'd want for a sane presentation |
| 20:28 | <&Derakon> | Ugh, docs.google.come redirects me to Google Drive which appears to have no "create new document" button AFAICT. |
| 20:28 | <&Derakon> | Oh wait, there it is. |
| 20:28 | <&Derakon> | <--- blind. |
| 20:29 | <&Derakon> | I don't need anything fancy -- not even embedded video. |
| 20:29 | <&Derakon> | Just text and the occasional image. |
| 20:29 | <&Derakon> | Thanks for the suggestion. |
| 20:30 | <@TheWatcher> | No problem, I hope it works out for you, and good luck with the talk. |
| 20:31 | <&Derakon> | Thanks. It's a pretty casual thing -- just a bunch of microscopists getting together to compare notes. |
| 20:31 | <&Derakon> | I'll be talking about the general-purpose microscope UI I've been working on. |
| 20:31 | <@TheWatcher> | Have you managed to persuage your boss to let you leave 'cockpit' out of the name? |
| 20:32 | <&Derakon> | I don't think that's going to happen. |
| 20:32 | <&Derakon> | He's completely infatuated with the idea of "flying" a microscope. |
| 20:32 | | * TheWatcher eyerolls vaguely |
| 20:32 | <&Derakon> | Still, I haven't changed the codename. It's still MUI in all my files. |
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| 20:54 | < froztbyte> | Derakon: http://bartaz.github.com/impress.js/ |
| 20:55 | <&Derakon> | That sounds like it might be tricky to distribute. |
| 20:55 | <&Derakon> | Neat idea though. |
| 20:57 | | Thrae [ircuser@Nightstar-9222242e.fios.verizon.net] has joined #code |
| 20:57 | < Thrae> | In a single-level page table with a 32-bit virtual address space for a process, all of that space would be used for the page table, right? |
| 20:58 | <&Derakon> | Uh... |
| 20:58 | <&Derakon> | That sounds like a TF or McM question. |
| 21:00 | < iospace> | yeah |
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| 21:40 | | * Derakon finishes the rough draft. |
| 21:40 | <&Derakon> | Anyone want to take a look? http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/temp2/muipresentation.pdf |
| 21:40 | <&Derakon> | Target presentation time is about 15 minutes. |
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| 21:48 | < Azash> | Derakon: Looks clear enough, as someone with no idea about what the system is |
| 21:50 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-253c8553.as43234.net] has joined #code |
| 21:58 | <&Derakon> | Azash: thanks for taking a look. |
| 22:00 | | * TheWatcher will look shortly, needs to sort stuff first |
| 22:01 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 22:01 | < froztbyte> | Derakon: for some reason I'd always assumed the "Wei" in your name was an asian name of sorts |
| 22:01 | < froztbyte> | until I saw the first slide now |
| 22:01 | <&Derakon> | Hee. |
| 22:01 | <&Derakon> | Yeahno. |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | Derakon is a Viking-American |
| 22:02 | <&Derakon> | That's how Synfony describes me anyway. |
| 22:04 | < froztbyte> | "tied directly to the UI" makes me think "blocking IO" |
| 22:04 | < froztbyte> | (and hopefully I don't need to reconnect again now...) |
| 22:05 | < froztbyte> | (end of the month we need to force DSL reconnects because the company who runs the copper infra are a bunch of morons) |
| 22:05 | <&Derakon> | I see you. |
| 22:06 | <&Derakon> | I don't really have a feel for how coding-literate my audience is. |
| 22:06 | < froztbyte> | I get what you meant by the text |
| 22:06 | <&Derakon> | So I didn't want to get too bogged down in details. |
| 22:06 | < froztbyte> | and yeah, I think it'd probably not be too much of an issue |
| 22:06 | < froztbyte> | just something that came to mind that I thought was worth mentioning :) |
| 22:06 | < froztbyte> | the kit you have sounds fun |
| 22:06 | <&Derakon> | It's a lot of cool toys, counterbalanced by a lot of crap code. |
| 22:06 | < froztbyte> | haha |
| 22:07 | < froztbyte> | those images, are they zoomed in any fashion? |
| 22:07 | < froztbyte> | (just trying to get a feel for the picture resolution) |
| 22:08 | <&Derakon> | To varying extents, yeah. |
| 22:08 | <&Derakon> | Google autofit the images to the slide when I uploaded them. |
| 22:08 | <&Derakon> | The "entire UI" shot would normally be spread across three large displays, for example. |
| 22:09 | < froztbyte> | yar, I got that sort of feeling from the width |
| 22:09 | < froztbyte> | and normal sort of screenshot proportions |
| 22:09 | | * froztbyte looks at the rest of the slides |
| 22:09 | <@TheWatcher> | Hmm |
| 22:09 | < froztbyte> | also: https://twitter.com/aphyr/status/274628879983996928 |
| 22:10 | <@TheWatcher> | If you're not sure about the code literacy of your audience, I wondr about actually including events.publish() and events.subscribe() in the slides themselves |
| 22:10 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, maybe... |
| 22:10 | <&Derakon> | I just threw that in. |
| 22:10 | < froztbyte> | Derakon: so, "Running experiments" |
| 22:11 | <&Derakon> | I hadn't mentioned the pub/sub system up to that point. |
| 22:11 | <@TheWatcher> | I wonder if a diagram showing how the events are handled might be easier on the code-blind |
| 22:11 | < froztbyte> | would I be correct in my understanding that your system ends up just being a scientific message broker, and as long as any runner understands what any device can do, you can always hook them up? |
| 22:11 | < froztbyte> | TheWatcher: yeah, that's a good idea |
| 22:11 | < froztbyte> | the krondo twisted tuts do that, too |
| 22:12 | <&Derakon> | Diagrams require some manner of art program. >.> |
| 22:12 | < froztbyte> | just a timeslice view |
| 22:12 | <@TheWatcher> | Derakon: dia |
| 22:12 | < froztbyte> | Derakon: one moment |
| 22:12 | < froztbyte> | http://www.websequencediagrams.com |
| 22:12 | < froztbyte> | + screenshot |
| 22:12 | <&Derakon> | froztbyte: the program is basically a collection of custom UI widgets and some preset algorithms that interact with generic devices. |
| 22:12 | < froztbyte> | ah k |
| 22:13 | < froztbyte> | eeeeeeeeeek windowclutter |
| 22:13 | <&Derakon> | For specifically the experiment-running bit, the program generates a series of time-action pairs, and then goes to each Executor and asks it how much of the sequence it can perform. |
| 22:13 | < froztbyte> | MOAR TILING WM |
| 22:13 | | * froztbyte shaves some of Derakon's yaks |
| 22:13 | <&Derakon> | And the one that can do the most gets to run it. |
| 22:14 | < froztbyte> | Derakon: I'm impressed at how large your abort button is, but simultaneously disappointed that there isn't a "Don't Panic" /anywhere/ :( |
| 22:14 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 22:14 | <&Derakon> | It's even bigger in the original UI. |
| 22:15 | <@TheWatcher> | Also, disappointed that it's a virtual button and not a big, red breaker button connected to the USB~ |
| 22:15 | < froztbyte> | haha |
| 22:15 | < froztbyte> | that too |
| 22:15 | < froztbyte> | the histrograms (I presume?) under the images are a neat touch |
| 22:15 | <&Derakon> | They're actually super important. |
| 22:15 | <&Derakon> | Since they're also how you rescale what value counts as white and what as black. |
| 22:16 | < froztbyte> | haha |
| 22:16 | <&Derakon> | So e.g. if everything you care about is in the range of 100-200 counts, and there's a single pixel at 10000 counts, then you can't see anything unless you manually rescale. |
| 22:16 | < froztbyte> | there's about 7 bad jokes running through my mind right now |
| 22:16 | < froztbyte> | but let's just suffice for a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK2z1G20_9U |
| 22:17 | < froztbyte> | Derakon: hmmm |
| 22:17 | < froztbyte> | except fuck that link, it's a live version that fails |
| 22:17 | < froztbyte> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAH7oQuECbk |
| 22:17 | < froztbyte> | Derakon: so, the way I've normally seen that particular case handled in graphs with far-outlying datapoints |
| 22:18 | < froztbyte> | is a logarithmic render along one of the axes |
| 22:18 | <&Derakon> | Well, we're doing the scaling in OpenGL; dunno if it does log-scale. |
| 22:19 | < froztbyte> | I'm not quite sure how you could do that on an image view? maybe automatically render three images, one tuned dark, one tuned light, one that's a blend with a box around the light-in-dark bits, with overlay boxes showing where you're tweaking stuff? |
| 22:20 | <&Derakon> | If you look at the camera view, you can see in the histogram four blue numbers. |
| 22:20 | <&Derakon> | Two of them are the min/max values in the image. |
| 22:20 | <&Derakon> | And the other two are the "treated as black" and "treated as white" values. |
| 22:20 | <&Derakon> | The red value is either median or mean, I forget which. |
| 22:20 | <&Derakon> | Probably median. |
| 22:20 | < froztbyte> | alrighty |
| 22:21 | < froztbyte> | how do you select the new calibration on the histogram? clickyclicky, or can you also enter a number? |
| 22:21 | <&Derakon> | Click&drag. |
| 22:21 | <&Derakon> | I don't think anyone's ever wanted to be so precise as to need to type in a specific value. |
| 22:22 | < froztbyte> | cool |
| 22:22 | < froztbyte> | k, so |
| 22:22 | < froztbyte> | other things, that may or may not be relevant |
| 22:22 | < froztbyte> | I have no idea what OMX is, but that might be irrelevant since your audience might be familiar with it |
| 22:22 | <&Derakon> | They'll know. |
| 22:23 | <&Derakon> | Anyway the expansion of the name is if anything less indicative. |
| 22:23 | <&Derakon> | "Optical Microscope eXperimental" |
| 22:23 | <&Derakon> | (It's not remotely experimental anymore~) |
| 22:23 | < froztbyte> | ah |
| 22:23 | < froztbyte> | alrighty |
| 22:23 | <&Derakon> | (That is, we aren't fiddling with the design( |
| 22:23 | <&Derakon> | )) |
| 22:23 | <&McMartin> | Perhaps now it can be the Optical Microscope Experience~ |
| 22:23 | <&Derakon> | OME is taken as an acronym already, I'm pretty sure. :( |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | eXperience |
| 22:24 | <&Derakon> | ...right, yes. |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | You were asking if it was a good idea to try for Optical Microscope Gantry, weren't you~ |
| 22:24 | < froztbyte> | and then, you very much seem to just cover what you did do, feature-for-feature, and showing the neat loose extras from your stuff compared to what was previously all tied up |
| 22:24 | < froztbyte> | which I guess means your audience is also all familiar with all the rest of it, and would just like to not-use-the-current-software? |
| 22:25 | < froztbyte> | McMartin: lulz |
| 22:25 | <&Derakon> | I don't know how familiar my audience is with actually using OMX. |
| 22:25 | < froztbyte> | hmm |
| 22:25 | < froztbyte> | okay |
| 22:25 | <&Derakon> | They know it exists and that it's an optical / super-resolution microscope. |
| 22:25 | <&Derakon> | That implies an awful lot. |
| 22:25 | < froztbyte> | you may just wish to throw a short video clip in there somewhere, then |
| 22:25 | <&Derakon> | Of what? |
| 22:25 | < froztbyte> | just to go "so this is how we'd normally do X" |
| 22:25 | < froztbyte> | if it's relevant, of course |
| 22:26 | < froztbyte> | if it's not relevant, disregard me :P |
| 22:26 | <&Derakon> | I don't think we really need to get into that much detail. |
| 22:26 | <&Derakon> | A lot can be accomplished by handwaving at the current UI. |
| 22:29 | <&Derakon> | That web sequencing-thing...ehh. I don't think I want a sequence diagram because there's not generally an explicit sequence to these. |
| 22:29 | <&Derakon> | Just a lot of message-passing and event processing. |
| 22:30 | < froztbyte> | yeah, fair enough |
| 22:30 | <&Derakon> | A relational diagram with three boxes and the arrows between them would probably be helpful though. |
| 22:30 | < froztbyte> | I don't know how much work it'd be to make something like what's on this page: http://krondo.com/?p=1209 |
| 22:30 | <@TheWatcher> | Dera: FWTW, I used dia for http://elearn.cs.man.ac.uk/devwiki/images/3/30/PeveWikiDiagram.png and others like it |
| 22:30 | < froztbyte> | TheWatcher: your diagram is wrong |
| 22:31 | < froztbyte> | TheWatcher: it's missing all the requisite portals to hell, etc, that go with the presence of such perl hackery ;D |
| 22:32 | <@TheWatcher> | Wups, a terrible omission on my part! |
| 22:32 | < froztbyte> | indeed! |
| 22:32 | <&Derakon> | TW: will give Dia a shot then, thanks. |
| 22:37 | | * Derakon waits like 20 seconds for Dia start up, accidentally hits ESC when prompted if he's sure he wants to run it, sighs, starts over. |
| 22:39 | | * iospace golf claps |
| 22:40 | <@TheWatcher> | (froztbyte: although, hell? Pfah! More like a transdimensional rift to the centre of all infinitiy where the blind idiot god whose name no lips date speak alound gnaws hungrily amidst the muffled beating of vile drums and the thin whine of accursed flutes) |
| 22:40 | <@TheWatcher> | *dare |
| 22:40 | <&Derakon> | ...instead of copying an object and then pasting it, I apparently must use the "Duplicate" menu option. |
| 22:41 | <&Derakon> | Also I see no obvious way to label action linesv |
| 22:41 | <&Derakon> | s/v/./ |
| 22:44 | <@TheWatcher> | ... you should be able to copy&paste objects |
| 22:45 | <&Derakon> | "Should be able to" and "can" so rarely meet up in my experience when it comes to OSS UIs. |
| 22:45 | <@TheWatcher> | And yeah, lines have no intrinsic label, I just use text objects for them |
| 22:45 | <@TheWatcher> | I only have any experience with the windows and linux versions too, so I dunno if they broke something in the mac port >.< |
| 22:46 | <&Derakon> | The Mac port is the Linux version running in X11. |
| 22:46 | <&Derakon> | Quintessential minimal-effort port. |
| 22:46 | <&Derakon> | I mean, it's a hell of a lot better than nothing. |
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| 22:51 | <&Derakon> | Okay, how's this look? http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/temp2/muiDiagram.png |
| 22:54 | <@TheWatcher> | Looks good to me |
| 23:00 | | * TheWatcher arghs, stabs students |
| 23:03 | <@TheWatcher> | I have a 43K document entitled "Documenting your code", it is linked from the course front page, and from each bloody exercise submission tool with a big "Follow the instructions in these documents or you will lose marks" warnings. |
| 23:03 | <&McMartin> | What format is that 43K document in? |
| 23:03 | <&Derakon> | And they complain about not having seen the rules they're supposed to have followed. |
| 23:03 | <@TheWatcher> | Dera: bingo |
| 23:04 | | * Derakon is somewhat familiar with student antics. |
| 23:04 | <@TheWatcher> | McM: plain text |
| 23:04 | <@TheWatcher> | (it's larger in moodle, as I have added markup to make it easier, but yes) |
| 23:05 | <&McMartin> | OK, I'd like to state for the record that formatting requirements the size of a novella is in fact worthy of a lolwut. |
| 23:05 | <@TheWatcher> | This is an intro course |
| 23:06 | <@TheWatcher> | it starts out saying why you should even have them. Then it introduces normal c comment styles, and then includes a very brief Doxygen intro |
| 23:06 | <&McMartin> | =( at Doxygen, but I suppose it can't be helped for mass evaluation |
| 23:06 | <@TheWatcher> | (a good chunk of the latter part being examples) |
| 23:07 | <&Derakon> | What's wrong with Doxygen? |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | Same thing that's wrong with Javadoc; it's "too close to the code" to be useful, and when it tries to organize stuff to be more coherent it tends to simply become outright unnavigable |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | Also, its indexing schemes appear to have been invented by the Zorlons of Altair VI. |
| 23:08 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 23:08 | <&Derakon> | Well, I mostly use it to organize my to-do list. |
| 23:08 | <&Derakon> | Pyrel has external documentation in addition to code comments for when you need a higher-level view. |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | I'm a huge fan of design docs, and then the javadoc-level stuff is OK |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | But my experiences with Doxygen's javadoc-like functionality is that it is extremely hard to use compared to, well, javadoc or pydoc |
| 23:09 | | * TheWatcher blink |
| 23:09 | | Thrae [ircuser@Nightstar-7fbd3546.fios.verizon.net] has joined #code |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | TheWatcher: As a client of the library, not in terms of writing the comments. |
| 23:10 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh right |
| 23:11 | <&McMartin> | Also, I have a measurable bias towards the literate-programming side of the field when it comes to how comments should work, and that has very strong implications on code architecture. |
| 23:11 | <&Derakon> | Literate-programming? |
| 23:11 | | * TheWatcher uses it for C/C++ and perl, where the former has sod all real equivalent, and the latter has POD (which is hideous to work with) |
| 23:11 | <&Derakon> | Like, "assume your audience is experienced"? |
| 23:11 | <&McMartin> | (And collapses dramatically when dealing with API-level stuff) |
| 23:11 | <&McMartin> | Derakon: No |
| 23:12 | <&McMartin> | It's more like "the comments and the code they comment form a coherent narrative or argument" |
| 23:12 | <&Derakon> | Uh. |
| 23:12 | <&McMartin> | There's a number of styles for it, the most convenient I first found for Clojure, but it was based on a Python system |
| 23:12 | <&McMartin> | Looking for that now. |
| 23:12 | <&Derakon> | I think I'll have to see an example before I understand what you're talking about. |
| 23:12 | <&McMartin> | Yes~ |
| 23:12 | <&McMartin> | http://fogus.github.com/marginalia/ |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | Is the one that's most relevant to actual code, because it is a comment system that still does privileging of commentary |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | But isn't, say, Literate Haskell, which is *literally* "code goes in code-marked areas and everything else is comments instead of the other way around", or Inweb, which is a programming language in its own right and includes in-code cross-references |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | http://inform7.com/sources/inweb/ |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | I am not convinced that the discipline used by I7's code is generalizable. |
| 23:15 | <&McMartin> | The Docco/Marginalia, approach, however, I think, can produce better programs. |
| 23:15 | <&McMartin> | But it's work, so personal hacking projects are never properly documented in this way, so it goes~ |
| 23:15 | | Thrae [ircuser@Nightstar-7fbd3546.fios.verizon.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Restarting client or something...] |
| 23:15 | | * TheWatcher eyes that marfinalia link, twitches at undocumented functions |
| 23:15 | <@TheWatcher> | *marginalia |
| 23:15 | <&Derakon> | I note that a not-too-implausible goal for Pyrel is to comment every line. |
| 23:16 | <&Derakon> | Angband at one point had practically achieved that. |
| 23:16 | <&McMartin> | That's a discipline I actively dislike. |
| 23:16 | <&Derakon> | And it was a big help for newbie developers. |
| 23:16 | <&McMartin> | If you have to comment every line, your code is too opaquei n the first place. |
| 23:16 | <&Derakon> | You assume a level of skill in your devs that is not always preesnt. |
| 23:16 | <&Derakon> | Er, present. |
| 23:16 | <&Derakon> | Most of the comments, you or I would just mentally skip over. |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | Maybe |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | I was in fact *actively trained* to not write code like: |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | ++i; // bump object index |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | Preferring: |
| 23:17 | <&Derakon> | I'm definitely not saying that that commenting style is appropriate for all or even most projects. |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | ++objectIndex; |
| 23:18 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, and I'm saying I was specifically trained to consider it bad. |
| 23:19 | <&Derakon> | Even if the comment just reassures the newbie dev that they did in fact read the line correctly, it still has value. |
| 23:20 | <&McMartin> | If you're going to do that you need some way of indicating which comments are the "important" ones |
| 23:21 | <&Derakon> | Fair enough. |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | Or, you know, program in a language that's more expressive :smuggo: |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | ... |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | http://i.imgur.com/OCxwL.gif |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | This is the best of all shelves |
| 23:21 | <&Derakon> | Like, say, Python~ |
| 23:21 | <&Derakon> | That's pretty cool, yeah. |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, note that this Marginalia thing is based on a Python doc system in the first place. |
| 23:22 | | * Derakon gets a response to his can't-cut-straight-on-the-bandsaw question that says "I vote for blade drift...we only pay $500 for the machine and no guarantees that everything will line up perfectly like on a $10,000 machine." |
| 23:22 | <&Derakon> | (The consensus appears to be that I need a new blade, though) |
| 23:39 | | Derakon [chriswei@Nightstar-a3b183ae.ca.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: leaving] |
| 23:39 | | Thrae [ircuser@Nightstar-7fbd3546.fios.verizon.net] has joined #code |
| 23:39 | | * TheWatcher ponders this code |
| 23:41 | < celticminstrel> | Firefox, why don't you wrap text in text/plain files. >< |
| 23:41 | <@TheWatcher> | I should probably feel bad that this file has a 275 character line in it |
| 23:42 | < celticminstrel> | Supposedly putting something in userContent.css can fix it, but it didn't work for me... :/ |
| 23:51 | < celticminstrel> | Hm, changing to CSS3 makes it work, so yay! |
| 23:51 | < celticminstrel> | Now to try to find a way to make Firefox ask for confirmation when I press Cmd-Q... |
| --- Log closed Sat Dec 01 00:00:54 2012 |