| --- Log opened Wed Nov 28 00:00:08 2012 |
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| 00:48 | | * Azash takes a short nap before dinner, wakes up at 2:45, curses |
| 00:49 | <@Azash> | Well, at least I get better coding time |
| 01:09 | <@rms> | gnolam: newer version have a doc preview thing |
| 01:10 | <@rms> | For the thumbnail mode of explorer |
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| 01:43 | <@Alek> | gnolam: since when? |
| 01:43 | <@Alek> | 8 might, dunno, but 7 doesn't. not even ultimate. |
| 01:46 | < gnolam> | ... why are you asking me? |
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| 01:56 | <@Alek> | [17:33] <gnolam> Windows has a built-in PDF viewer? |
| 01:56 | < gnolam> | [23:58:56] <Derakon> Hunh, Windows' builtin PDF viewer can't view that data sheet. |
| 01:56 | < gnolam> | Do you see the question mark in the statement you quoted? :P |
| 01:56 | <@Alek> | bah. |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | What the Hell, ARB! |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | Was DLL symbol space at a premium? |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | There was really no excuse to retire glVertexPointer |
| 02:12 | < gnolam> | Ah, you're starting to discover that they went full GNOME on the API. :P |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | I'm more annoyed than I should be because GLSL 1.20 is very tied to fixed functionality |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | It makes complete sense to retire all the other gl*Pointers other than glVertexPointer and glVertexAttribPointer |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | However, GLSL 1.30 is total shit, worse than 3.3 and 1.2 |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | Since 1.2 and 3.3 at least both have self-binding vertex attributes. |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | 1.2's because they're A Pile Of Globals That Map To Fixed Functionality, So You Use Those |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | And 3.3 because they actually let you say "this attribute goes here" |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | Whereas in 3.0 you had to look up where the attribute with that name went every time you linked the shader |
| 02:14 | | * McMartin weeps no tears for immediate mode or for direct quad submission |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | This is, admittedly, more of an issue because my laptop's graphics driver doesn't yet officially support any non-crappy version of 3.x |
| 02:31 | <@himi> | What's the graphics card? |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | Intel 4000HD, which can do OpenGL 3.1 but you need edge drivers to do it |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | IIUC |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, the feature required to make OpenGL shaders be non-shitty again in the post-fixed-functionality world is ARB_explicit_attrib_location, and that doesn't become standard until 3.3 |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | (Windows drivers for the 4000HD go up to 4.0) |
| 02:47 | <@iospace> | http://adafruit.com/products/306 this is COOL |
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| 04:16 | <@Azash> | Dear code, why are grunt devs clueless? |
| 04:19 | <&McMartin> | Is grunt a specific program, or do you mean "90% of developerkind" here? |
| 04:20 | <@Azash> | Well, we're developing something in node.js (please don't ask) and a lot of the tools and such we use are like WHY WHY WHY |
| 04:20 | <@Azash> | grunt is a testing framework based on nodeunit |
| 04:20 | <&McMartin> | Ah, I see |
| 04:20 | <@Azash> | I opened an issue asking if it was possible to get exit codes for programs run as part of tests |
| 04:21 | <&McMartin> | If I had to hazard a guess I'd gesture vaguely at the Worse Is Better essay |
| 04:21 | <@Azash> | Like, the way it works now is you tell it what node script to run and it returns the output |
| 04:21 | <@Azash> | And we could use the exit codes, so I asked if it would be possible to get those somehow |
| 04:21 | <&McMartin> | But that's more answering a question "Why must the incompetence of the grunt devs trouble me" |
| 04:21 | <@Azash> | So they referred me to the docs on what exit codes grunt itself returns |
| 04:22 | <@Azash> | Then I tried to specify and got a reply |
| 04:22 | <@Azash> | "I saw the list, but that's exit codes for grunt proper. I was asking about getting the exit code from scripts run inside tests." |
| 04:22 | <@Azash> | "Scripts? I don't know what you mean." |
| 04:23 | | * Azash http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/list/000/363/697/683.gif |
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| 05:45 | <@Tarinaky> | TIL there are people out there who struggle to write C. |
| 05:45 | <@Tarinaky> | I... actually cannot comprehend this. |
| 05:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Seriously? |
| 05:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | C is a low-level language with lots of sharp edges. |
| 05:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Yeah, but they all know a language in the same 'family' already (Java). |
| 05:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Just remove all the features. |
| 05:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Good and bad. |
| 05:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Until you're doing little more than pushing bits of memory about. |
| 05:46 | <@Azash> | I don't understand why people who have driven an AT Nissan can't drive a trailer truck |
| 05:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | And add lots of seriously dangerous ones like weak typing, manual memory management, <stdio.h> and <string.h> :D |
| 05:46 | <&McMartin> | Um |
| 05:46 | <@Tarinaky> | There are people who struggle to put together a Linked List out of pointers :/ |
| 05:46 | <@Azash> | I mean it's just vehicles |
| 05:46 | | * thalass raises his hand |
| 05:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | And less useful compiler error messages |
| 05:47 | <&McMartin> | Idiomatic C looks *nothing at all* like idiomatic Java |
| 05:47 | < thalass> | I'm still learning Python. In my spare time. |
| 05:47 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay, the compiler I'll give you. |
| 05:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | And runtime error reporting that consists of "lol segfault" rather than exceptions |
| 05:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, what McMartin said |
| 05:47 | < thalass> | Though in my defence i can usually get the gist of something if i'm reading other languages. |
| 05:47 | <@Tarinaky> | Fine-fine. |
| 05:47 | <&McMartin> | Idiomatic C looks like idiomatic assembler on specific chip architectures |
| 05:47 | <@Tarinaky> | I have no empathy. |
| 05:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Seriously, just because the syntaxes are superficially similar doesn't mean there's a lot of overlap. |
| 05:47 | < thalass> | heh |
| 05:47 | <&McMartin> | Also, if you're surprised that people can't invent linked lists on their own, you've forgotten about when you learned them yourself. |
| 05:47 | <&McMartin> | They need to be taught. |
| 05:47 | | thalass is now known as Thalasleep |
| 05:47 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: We had a lecture on them. |
| 05:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Like, two weeks before. |
| 05:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Otherwise, all C programmers would also be expert C++ and Inform 6 programmers. |
| 05:48 | <@Tarinaky> | We already had an assignment using linked lists in exactly the same way. |
| 05:48 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: That said, I'm about 80% convinced that visceral fear of lack of braces is what makes people hysterically reject Python and I7. |
| 05:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Admittedly that assignment was in java, and the linked lists were pre-existing. |
| 05:48 | <@Tarinaky> | But we've done Linked Lists 3 or 4 times now. |
| 05:49 | <@Azash> | They may be simple to be taught but that doesn't mean they are simple to figure out yourself |
| 05:49 | <@Tarinaky> | I jumped on a chair and wrote out an implementation for a single linked list in C on a white board. |
| 05:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: only 80%? |
| 05:49 | <@Azash> | AVL trees take maybe an hour max to learn but afaik it took a decade for the algorithm to be perfected |
| 05:49 | <@Azash> | As an example |
| 05:50 | <@Tarinaky> | They don't need to invent them from scratch though. |
| 05:50 | <@Tarinaky> | It's being taught in lectures and we're being examined on this stuff. |
| 05:50 | <&McMartin> | The remaining 20% is visceral panic reactions from semantically relevant whitespace |
| 05:51 | <&McMartin> | And an inability to grasp the difference between "no visible differences, one is right, one is wrong", "space-counting matters", and "indent/outdent are lexemes" |
| 05:51 | <@Tarinaky> | Inform has the funky "Looks superficially like English, reads nothing like English" thing that makes it harder to get in the right head-space. |
| 05:52 | <@Azash> | All I'm saying is that just because you learned something doesn't mean it's blindingly obvious |
| 05:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: to me, that implies that they're shaky on more fundamental things and it's only going to get worse. |
| 05:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Or the teaching methods are fundamentally flaws~ |
| 05:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | *flawed |
| 05:52 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: This doesn't deminish my point though. |
| 05:52 | <@Azash> | Same goes for knowing C |
| 05:53 | <&McMartin> | Idiomatic C looks like assembler |
| 05:53 | <@Azash> | Just because you know C and it's imperative, doesn't mean people with experience in another imperative language will know C just like that |
| 05:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Azash: But why don't people realize they need to use a Linked List when they need to use a linked list. |
| 05:54 | <@Tarinaky> | And remember one of the two linked list implementations we've come across. |
| 05:54 | <@Tarinaky> | In the course. |
| 05:54 | <@Azash> | Lack of practice, I'm guessing |
| 05:54 | <@Tarinaky> | But fine. I am a bastard with no empathy >.> |
| 05:55 | <@Tarinaky> | And this is why I have only one friend IRL atm. |
| 05:56 | | * Azash eyes the clock, grumbles about project |
| 06:00 | <@Azash> | For anyone with pressing need to gouge their eyes out, https://github.com/haeroe/jssanal |
| 06:00 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: It's also worth noting that there's a productivity difference across the "proficient" spectrum of programmers of approximately 1000x. |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | That's *before* you get into the "not actually proficient" masses. |
| 06:01 | <@Azash> | How is that number even measured? |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | Badly~ |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | But generally "lines of code that pass QA per unit time" or similar |
| 06:02 | <@Azash> | Right |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | Which is why it's not a great metric but it also means that things like design matter |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | And generally aren't taught; you're just supposed to know |
| 06:03 | <&McMartin> | We do this for a lot of things |
| 06:05 | | * Azash looks at team member breaking the code, rubs temples |
| 06:09 | <@Azash> | McMartin: I don't know if anyone really knows it out of the box, but it seems like something you pick up with more and more experience in development |
| 06:09 | <@Azash> | Though some people do pick it up a lot faster |
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| 06:15 | <&McMartin> | A *lot* faster |
| 06:15 | <&McMartin> | The most famous dichotomy is the people who need to be taught how assignment works, and the people who don't |
| 06:16 | <@Azash> | It's all about finding the right state of mind |
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| 08:46 | <@Azash> | And apparently one empty while loop destroys node.js' concurrency |
| 09:22 | < Syka> | Azash: destroys node.js completely* |
| 09:22 | < Syka> | :P |
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| 09:28 | <@Azash> | Syka: This project makes me want to cry :P |
| 09:30 | < Syka> | lols |
| 09:49 | <@Azash> | Like, I have a callback function that's part of class A, that's passed to class B for some networking |
| 09:49 | <@Azash> | If I use a semaphor in class A and while-wait for the semaphor to be 0 |
| 09:49 | <@Azash> | It will occupy A entirely and stop the callbacks from running |
| 09:49 | | * Azash http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/list/000/363/697/683.gif |
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| 11:06 | <@rms> | <Azash> And apparently one empty while loop destroys node.js' concurrency <-- nope, it uses threading. |
| 11:06 | <@rms> | Events from the network or files will still fire |
| 11:06 | <@Azash> | You can see the issue above |
| 11:16 | <@rms> | It's supposed to have a way out of that situation, so I'd report that as a bug |
| 11:30 | | * gnolam wanders off to crack some DES keys. |
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| 11:38 | <@Azash> | rms: Okay, so I'm wrong about it being broken but it's still broken? :P |
| 11:39 | <@rms> | It's broken in a way that should be reported, because it can get out of infinite loops. Just not that one for some reason. |
| 11:40 | <@rms> | s/get out of/work around/ |
| 11:48 | <@Azash> | Mm, I'll make a bug report on it I guess |
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| 12:42 | <@rms> | TIL: Windows' telnet client sends uncompleted lines |
| 12:44 | <@rms> | Either that or my line parse function is getting confused to fucking all-hell |
| 12:44 | <@rms> | (FF sends data it reads fine though, so I'm suspecting it's the telnet) |
| 12:46 | <@Azash> | Did you take CRLF vs. LF into account? |
| 12:47 | <@rms> | Shouldn't need to, the \r doesn't affect the output in tests. |
| 12:47 | <@rms> | (I'm splitting on \n) |
| 12:48 | <@Azash> | Right |
| 12:50 | <&jerith> | rms: Network traffic is not guaranteed to be delivered in the same size chunks it was sent in. |
| 12:50 | <@rms> | Also confirmed that FF sends CRLF |
| 12:50 | <&jerith> | You need to buffer input until you see the newline or whatever. |
| 12:51 | <@rms> | jerith: I buffer everything, then look for a LF and then send and event with the data upto that first LF then continue until I get more data or run out of LFs |
| 12:51 | <&jerith> | Then how does incomplete lines matter? |
| 12:52 | <@rms> | https://gist.github.com/4161036 |
| 12:52 | <@rms> | That's the output I'm getting for sending "test\ntesting\nWTF\nasdf\n" |
| 12:52 | <@rms> | You'll note that it is /massively/ larger than my input. |
| 12:53 | <&jerith> | What does the code look like? |
| 12:53 | <@rms> | Yet it prints out FF's headers just fine. |
| 12:54 | <&jerith> | That smells like a bug in your buffering code. |
| 12:55 | <@rms> | https://gist.github.com/4161036 |
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| 12:57 | <&jerith> | buff += grinPumpLines(o, (buff + data).toString().split('\n')) |
| 12:57 | <@rms> | To save you some headache, in lineParse obj == o |
| 12:57 | <&jerith> | I think that's your problem. |
| 12:58 | <@rms> | grinPumplines returns the unemited data |
| 12:58 | <&jerith> | buff += foo(buff + data) |
| 12:58 | <&jerith> | I think you want "buff = ..." there. |
| 12:58 | <@rms> | Ah |
| 13:00 | <&jerith> | Does that fix it? |
| 13:00 | < Syka> | printers suck |
| 13:01 | <@rms> | Yup |
| 13:02 | <&jerith> | Yup that fixed it or yup printers suck? |
| 13:02 | <@rms> | It fixed it AFAICT |
| 13:03 | <&jerith> | \o/ |
| 13:04 | <&jerith> | Syka: Yes, printers suck. |
| 13:05 | <&jerith> | In my experience, multifunction things and inkjets suck more, HP LaserJets suck a bit less. |
| 13:07 | <@rms> | Printer on fire. <-- probably the best example of why they suck |
| 13:07 | < celticminstrel> | ... |
| 13:07 | <&jerith> | That's a not entirely unreasonable solution to the problem of "hardware is hard". |
| 13:09 | <@rms> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lp0_on_fire |
| 13:10 | | * Azash gets home, puts his feet up, melts into the chair |
| 13:19 | < Syka> | jerith: i am using a canon inkjet multifunction |
| 13:19 | < Syka> | it's like a cacophony of fail |
| 13:20 | < Syka> | i had a little hp laserjet multifunction |
| 13:20 | < Syka> | was great, worked ootb on my arch & ubuntu |
| 13:20 | < Syka> | then it stopped loading paper |
| 13:20 | <@rms> | HP seems to be the brand to use for Linux. |
| 13:21 | < Syka> | yay hplip |
| 13:21 | <@rms> | For printers anyways |
| 13:21 | < Syka> | also Fuji-Xerox have an official linux driver now |
| 13:21 | <@rms> | Oh, nice. |
| 13:21 | < Syka> | however you can only get it on the Japanese site |
| 13:21 | <@rms> | No so nice D: |
| 13:21 | < Syka> | aaaaand it's a little weird to install |
| 13:21 | < Syka> | but it's in the arch repos i think now, and there's a repackaged deb on the ubuntu forums |
| 13:22 | < Syka> | it's english, still |
| 13:22 | < Syka> | it's just that the english site are HURRDURR WINDOWS AND OSX tards |
| 13:25 | <@rms> | At least you can get drivers from the HP site |
| 13:26 | <@rms> | Toshiba's official site sill gives me nightmares :/ |
| 13:26 | <@rms> | (If you don't know the model of the computer, you're fucked) |
| 13:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | Eugh, HP. |
| 13:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've been using an Epson NX330 and it's working much better than any HP printer I ever had. |
| 13:27 | <@rms> | Also toshiba does something stupid to the GPU drivers and the official ones from ATI flat out refuse to install. |
| 13:30 | < Syka> | i have a toshie ultrabook |
| 13:30 | < Syka> | apart from the media keys (FN-F4 doesn't turn the brightness up - it uh, puts the computer into sleep) and some lid closing weirdness, works great :3 |
| 13:31 | < Syka> | i have my OS installed in the SSD 'cache' on the drive, lol |
| 13:32 | < Syka> | http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2012/11/27/samsung-printer-password/ |
| 13:32 | < Syka> | slightly related |
| 13:33 | < Syka> | "The hard coded SNMP (Simple Network Management Protocol) password allows full, administrative read-write privileges and remains active even if SNMP is disabled using the printer's management console, CERT warned." |
| 13:34 | | * Syka finds Dell printer users |
| 13:34 | | * Syka uses their printers to print 20 copies of a double sided, 100 page document... which is really just a rickroll flipbook |
| 13:36 | < Syka> | okay so |
| 13:36 | < Syka> | i guess i finish off my website |
| 13:48 | < iospace> | god i'm such an embedded nerd XD |
| 13:48 | < celticminstrel> | ? |
| 13:50 | < iospace> | celticminstrel: i'm planning out how i wanna do my embedded PE, right now it's using an Arduino Due, an LCD screen, a menu to pick what PE problem you want, and a 7 segment to show how long each problem takes on an embedded system like that :P |
| 13:50 | < celticminstrel> | PE? |
| 13:51 | < iospace> | project euler |
| 13:51 | < celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 13:51 | < iospace> | yeah, and the Arduinos have the advantage of a lot more GPIO pins than a RasPi |
| 13:53 | <&jerith> | 8-bit machines are going to struggle with PE a bit. |
| 13:53 | < iospace> | jerith: Due is a 32 bit |
| 13:53 | <&jerith> | Ah. |
| 13:53 | < iospace> | 84 MHz only but still :P |
| 13:54 | < iospace> | plus, the other Arduinos are all 16 bit |
| 13:54 | <&jerith> | No, they're Atmel AVR micros. |
| 13:54 | < iospace> | yes, at last I checked the Uno R3 was a 16 bit AVR chip |
| 13:56 | <&jerith> | All the AVRs I've seen are 8-bit. |
| 13:57 | < iospace> | heh |
| 13:57 | < iospace> | hold on, loading up the AMega328 datasheet |
| 13:57 | <&jerith> | Yeah, they're all 8-bit. |
| 13:58 | < iospace> | *ATMega |
| 13:58 | < iospace> | huh, wonder where i got 16 from o-o |
| 13:58 | <&jerith> | Except for AVR32, which is actually a different arch. |
| 13:58 | < iospace> | well either way |
| 13:58 | < iospace> | yeah, this is ARM that i'm going to be using :P |
| 13:58 | <&jerith> | The address bus is bigger than 8-bit, though. |
| 13:58 | < Syka> | guys question |
| 13:58 | < Syka> | wait nevermind |
| 13:58 | < iospace> | heh |
| 13:58 | < iospace> | so the bit count won't be as much of an issue :P |
| 13:59 | < Syka> | i get my question typed, and then go 'what, that's simple, man i'm retarded' |
| 13:59 | <&jerith> | Quack quack. |
| 13:59 | < iospace> | what was it anyway? :P |
| 13:59 | < Syka> | if you have a website, do you go <page> - <site> or <site> - <page> |
| 13:59 | < Syka> | eg. Portfolio - Syka's Site or vice versa |
| 14:00 | < Syka> | then i realised that the former is better |
| 14:00 | < iospace> | jerith: either way, coding PE for a "slow" 32 bit processor shall be an adventure in funland :P |
| 14:00 | <&jerith> | Are you going to write your own bignum support? |
| 14:02 | < iospace> | dunno |
| 14:05 | < iospace> | ok, now i see where i got 16 bit, it says it stores an intn as a 16 bit variable |
| 14:06 | < iospace> | jerith: http://adafruit.com/products/306 did you see this last night? :3 |
| 14:07 | < Syka> | heh |
| 14:08 | < Syka> | man, i'm tempted to get LED strips n stuff |
| 14:14 | < iospace> | :P |
| 15:30 | < Syka> | oh man, Far Cry 3's startup time is HORRIFIC |
| 15:43 | < iospace> | o rly |
| 15:43 | < Syka> | yes |
| 15:43 | < Syka> | and it is crashing like a bitch |
| 15:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | At least it's consistent~ |
| 15:47 | < Syka> | fffff, this is the THIRD TIME I'VE SEEN THE INTRO MOVIE |
| 15:47 | < Syka> | also it's got that bang bang bang bang chuching song, whatever it is |
| 15:48 | < Syka> | 20 fps, oh yay |
| 15:48 | < Syka> | AND THEN IT CRASHES. |
| 15:49 | <@TheWatcher> | You know, you could just jab rust forks into your legs for the same effect without all the waiting. |
| 15:49 | <@TheWatcher> | *rusty |
| 15:56 | < Syka> | I had some weird shit enabled in my nvidia settings |
| 15:56 | < Syka> | pre-rendered frames was set to 3 |
| 15:56 | < Syka> | suddenly my FPS is good, and not 20 |
| 15:57 | < Syka> | now it's at 30fps! |
| 15:58 | | * Pandemic is cold.... |
| 15:58 | < Syka> | AND THEN IT CRASHES |
| 15:58 | | * Pandemic looks around, spreads to Syka, is warm again :) |
| 15:58 | | * Syka puts Pandemic on her Fermi |
| 15:58 | <@Pandemic> | Syka, does it creat a minidump file? |
| 15:58 | < Syka> | it doesn't crash |
| 15:59 | < Syka> | it just freezes and CTDs without closing |
| 15:59 | < Syka> | sigh time to verify cache |
| 16:00 | | * TheWatcher gets his Project MC Map moved into photoshop, will be able to update it more easily now |
| 16:58 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-e83b3651.cable.rogers.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] |
| 17:40 | <&jerith> | iospace: Nice! |
| 18:08 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 18:34 | | RichyB [richardb@Nightstar-3b2c2db2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 18:51 | | Syka is now known as syksleep |
| 19:03 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 19:10 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-77b2fe2a.as43234.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: ] |
| 19:12 | < iospace> | jerith: i kept on getting hit with ideas for it :3 |
| 19:13 | < iospace> | (for my low level PE) |
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| 22:52 | | * iospace will be ordering her Arduino today ^_^ |
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| --- Log closed Thu Nov 29 00:00:23 2012 |