| --- Log opened Tue Nov 27 00:00:53 2012 |
| 00:14 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:16 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:30 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
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| 03:27 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 03:58 | | syksleep is now known as Syk |
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| 06:34 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 06:34 | | * Azash supplies the channel with coding music right off the figurative presses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBbZFA-oQV8 |
| 07:06 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 07:25 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-e83b3651.cable.rogers.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] |
| 07:34 | <@froztbyte> | 46 views |
| 07:34 | <@froztbyte> | my kinda fresh |
| 07:35 | <@Azash> | froztbyte: To promote slightly, he's quite likely the best rap/hip hop producer in Finland, but that alias is for some kind of chill/ambient/whatever |
| 07:36 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 07:36 | <@froztbyte> | I can hear from the symbals that there's some hiphop relation |
| 07:36 | <@froztbyte> | also, are you finnski? |
| 07:39 | <@Azash> | YEah |
| 07:39 | <@Azash> | Yeah |
| 07:59 | <@froztbyte> | why do I know so many of you crazy mofos |
| 08:05 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 08:09 | <@Azash> | Because we are born with superior coding predisposition |
| 08:10 | | * Azash is at the same department where Linux was originally conceived, puts on shades |
| 08:15 | | * Syk is in Australia :D |
| 08:15 | < Syk> | nothing important was ever done in this town :D |
| 08:15 | <@Tamber> | Dustbowl, AU. |
| 08:15 | < Syk> | also, talking to suppliers |
| 08:15 | <@Azash> | Syk: Think positive |
| 08:15 | <@Azash> | You can explain that coding is hard |
| 08:16 | < Syk> | apparently they're looking for new people to do service delivery stuff in Perth |
| 08:16 | <@Azash> | And justify some VB |
| 08:16 | < Syk> | :U so that might be interesting |
| 08:16 | < Syk> | Azash: well I don't have to justify VB anymore :D |
| 08:16 | <@Azash> | \o/ |
| 08:16 | <@Azash> | "Why did you go for a startup" |
| 08:16 | <@Tamber> | Syk: Now it's all left-aligned? |
| 08:16 | <@Azash> | "So I could drink beer on the job" |
| 08:16 | | * Syk can code anything she likes, in whatever language she wishes, as long as it isn't Obj-C~ |
| 08:17 | < Syk> | oh yeah i can also do that |
| 08:17 | <@Azash> | I'd lampoon the ads right now but I can't remember how they go :( |
| 08:17 | < Syk> | i was tempted to buy a coffee machine today |
| 08:17 | < Syk> | a $1600 coffee machine discounted to $999 |
| 08:17 | < Syk> | i was *so tempted* |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | but we've already got one in the house and my mother'll probably give it to me when i move, so |
| 08:18 | <@Azash> | I'm planning to do the entrepreneurship thing at some point, preferably after getting some work experience |
| 08:18 | | * Syk is a 'startup' i suppose |
| 08:18 | <@Azash> | In Finland you can get pretty good social support until your company is profitable \:D/ |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | although i don't have any funding, really |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | I probably don't qualify for social support because I made too much money in the first 6 months of the FY lols |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | not that I'd take it, anyway |
| 08:19 | <@Azash> | Mm |
| 08:19 | <@Azash> | I'd do it right now but you have to be officially unemployed :( |
| 08:19 | < Syk> | heh |
| 08:19 | < Syk> | but yeah |
| 08:20 | < Syk> | i don't have any 'startup funding' |
| 08:20 | < Syk> | I have some ~$50k of my own behind me, hopefully I can turn a profit so I won't need to dig too deep into it <v< |
| 08:25 | < Syk> | but it shall all be fun |
| 08:27 | <@Azash> | I imagine that the point with startups is more to be in control and less to make PHAT STAX |
| 08:27 | <@Azash> | (though hopefully it will lead to that) |
| 08:27 | <@froztbyte> | <Azash> "Why did you go for a startup" |
| 08:27 | <@froztbyte> | <Azash> "So I could drink beer on the job" |
| 08:27 | <@froztbyte> | shows drive, tbh |
| 08:27 | < Syk> | well |
| 08:28 | <@froztbyte> | hai syk |
| 08:28 | < Syk> | well, i want to do what i want to do |
| 08:28 | <@Azash> | froztbyte: It was joking, but yeah, what I just said about being in control |
| 08:28 | < Syk> | as long as I make enough to live, i'm happy |
| 08:28 | <@froztbyte> | Azash: yeah I'm still catching up |
| 08:28 | <@Azash> | To me entrepreneurship appeals for the same reason god games do :p |
| 08:28 | <@froztbyte> | Azash: the correct reason, re finnski, is probably just because I'm similarly mad as you folks |
| 08:29 | <@Azash> | Haha |
| 08:29 | <@froztbyte> | Syk: being a startup doesn't imply funding |
| 08:29 | <@froztbyte> | it just means you're a business starting out |
| 08:29 | < Syk> | yeah :P |
| 08:29 | <@froztbyte> | VC and angel funding for startups is just one of the big ways it manifests |
| 08:29 | < Syk> | but i'm one of those software startups that isn't VC funded |
| 08:29 | < Syk> | :P |
| 08:32 | <@Azash> | How do those models work? |
| 08:33 | < Syk> | whut models? |
| 08:33 | <@Azash> | VC and angel funding |
| 08:34 | < Syk> | iirc, it's just a large, long-length, low interest loan |
| 08:34 | < Syk> | i suppose it depends on the terms of it |
| 08:35 | <@Azash> | Alright |
| 08:35 | < Syk> | according to the wiki, "An angel investor or angel (also known as a business angel or informal investor) is an affluent individual who provides capital for a business start-up, usually in exchange for convertible debt or ownership equity." |
| 08:36 | < Syk> | so it seems to be more equity |
| 08:37 | <@Azash> | Right |
| 08:37 | < Syk> | and they make profit off IPOs |
| 08:44 | <@froztbyte> | yeah the usual model is equity |
| 08:44 | <@froztbyte> | and betting that one winning business offsets the failing 10 |
| 08:44 | <@froztbyte> | or w/e on the numbers |
| 09:35 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 09:35 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 09:39 | | * Azash pines |
| 09:39 | | * Tamber oaks. |
| 09:40 | | * Azash receives pokemon from Tamber |
| 09:40 | <@Tamber> | :p |
| 09:40 | | * Tamber balances an acorn on Azash. |
| 10:04 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 10:12 | | RichyB [richardb@Nightstar-3b2c2db2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 10:18 | <@Azash> | The feeling of a productive commit |
| 10:18 | < Syk> | :D |
| 10:22 | <@Azash> | I have a good system |
| 10:22 | <@Azash> | Every workspace has a session for my VPS |
| 10:22 | <@Azash> | So when I change workspace I just do up and enter to re-attach irssi in that session |
| 10:22 | | * Azash is addicted |
| 10:30 | | RichyB [richardb@Nightstar-3b2c2db2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 10:31 | < Syk> | ahaha |
| 10:31 | < Syk> | okay so |
| 10:31 | < Syk> | gnome3 only does workspaces in the shell window |
| 10:31 | < Syk> | gj gnome |
| 10:34 | <@Azash> | wot |
| 10:34 | <@Azash> | Well, I prefer xfce so?~ |
| 10:36 | < Syk> | i dont use workspaces anyway |
| 10:36 | < Syk> | i just buy more screens |
| 10:36 | <@Azash> | Wow, that's a nice character |
| 10:36 | < Syk> | :> |
| 10:36 | <@Azash> | Haha |
| 10:36 | < Syk> | triple screens bitches |
| 10:36 | < Syk> | and a laptop if i want it |
| 10:36 | <@Azash> | I just have two |
| 10:37 | < Syk> | my 3rd monitor is just 100% XBMC |
| 10:37 | <@Azash> | Currently working on a uni computer with one huge screen |
| 10:37 | <@Azash> | Kind of want to switch to this now |
| 10:37 | < Syk> | huge as in res or size |
| 10:37 | <@Azash> | Size |
| 10:37 | < Syk> | when i move down south |
| 10:37 | < Syk> | i want to get three of those Catleaps or whatever |
| 10:37 | < Syk> | which is 2560x1600 or something in 27" |
| 10:38 | <@Azash> | Bueno |
| 10:38 | <@Azash> | Think this is 27 or 28 |
| 10:38 | <@Azash> | Seems wider than usual |
| 11:32 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[d00m] |
| 11:45 | <@iospace> | oi Syk |
| 11:45 | <@iospace> | who do you hate more, AMD or Apple? |
| 11:47 | | * Azash hails iospace |
| 11:49 | | * iospace responds by curling up on Azash's head |
| 11:49 | <@iospace> | ^_^ |
| 11:51 | | * Azash is now Davy Crockett |
| 11:52 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-bb103c17.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #code |
| 11:58 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 12:01 | <@froztbyte> | gnolam: no |
| 12:01 | <@froztbyte> | at least, nothing showstopper |
| 12:01 | <@froztbyte> | (re opengl) |
| 12:07 | < Syk> | iospace: oh man that's a hard one |
| 12:08 | < Syk> | iospace: Apple - since AMD kit is at least cheap |
| 12:08 | <@iospace> | heh |
| 12:08 | < Syk> | and AMD don't make shitty tablets and smartphones |
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| 12:45 | <&McMartin> | froztbyte: I'm the one that's been messing with OpenGL a lot recently and volubly; however, this is in part because I'm *not* an expert so I spend a bunch of time yelling at clouds |
| 12:45 | <@froztbyte> | that's fine |
| 12:46 | <@froztbyte> | and actually in line with where the question came from |
| 12:46 | <@froztbyte> | but it's got a Deferred returning 15 dec atm, so no worries ;) |
| 12:46 | <@froztbyte> | :)* |
| 13:34 | <@Azash> | https://plus.google.com/101700526665328331501/posts/Yk71MgkvAXx |
| 13:36 | < gnolam> | *facepalm* |
| 13:37 | <@Azash> | "You probably just violated the DMCA or somesuch idiotic law in posting this." |
| 13:37 | <@Azash> | "~" |
| 13:37 | <@Azash> | "BrainTrust(tm) probably violated Darwin's Law by implementing this." |
| 13:37 | <@Azash> | I wonder where the tilde came from |
| 13:41 | <@TheWatcher> | That's pretty amazing |
| 13:57 | <&McMartin> | IANAL, but AIUI obfuscation is not encryption and as such doesn't count as DRM. |
| 14:32 | <@Azash> | That probably depends on the legislation |
| 14:32 | <@Azash> | I mean, it has a secret that is used with a certain algorithm to produce a cipher/cleartext.. |
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| 14:45 | < Syk> | friggin |
| 14:46 | < Syk> | Google multi login is /stupid/ |
| 14:46 | <&McMartin> | Azash: Yeah, but IIRC DMCA is generally weaker than the EU equivalent, at least as written |
| 14:46 | < Syk> | because things like Webmaster tools go to user 0 |
| 14:47 | < Syk> | user 0 is my reddrgn.net account, which doesn't have my business stuff and /ffff/ |
| 14:47 | <@Azash> | McMartin: Well, it's not like the DMCA has been bent out of shape to justify things with before |
| 14:47 | < Syk> | oh for fuck sake |
| 14:47 | < Syk> | now my interface turned itself to chinese |
| 14:47 | <@Azash> | Er |
| 14:47 | <@Azash> | Hasn't |
| 14:47 | < Syk> | AGAIN |
| 14:48 | < Syk> | the chinese language kits aren't even installed! |
| 14:48 | <&McMartin> | Azash: True |
| 14:49 | <&McMartin> | ... though man, if it hadn't, the Internet would be so incredibly full of schadenfreude |
| 14:49 | <@Azash> | Syk: That's pretty impressive if they aren't even there |
| 14:49 | <&McMartin> | Since IIRC if it hadn't we'd be throwing WB execs in jail |
| 14:49 | <@Azash> | Hehe |
| 14:49 | < Syk> | WHY IS ROOT'S LANGUAGE CHINESE |
| 14:50 | < Syk> | I AM IN GMT+8, WHICH HAPPENS TO BE IN CHINA |
| 14:50 | < Syk> | I AM NOT SYKA OF SHANGHAI sdjfgdbgf |
| 14:51 | <@AnnoDomini> | aoeui |
| 14:55 | < Syk> | https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14290114/IJUSTWANTEDTOINSTALLCHROME.png |
| 14:55 | < Syk> | also why is cancel not localised |
| 14:55 | < Syk> | NO CANCEL, ONLY FORGING AHEAD WITH GLORIOUS PACKAGE MANAGEMENT |
| 14:58 | <@Azash> | Haha |
| 14:58 | <@Azash> | Poor cancel being shunned |
| 15:00 | <@AnnoDomini> | >2012 |
| 15:00 | <@AnnoDomini> | >not speaking fluent computer |
| 15:00 | <@AnnoDomini> | I shiggy diggy. |
| 15:01 | <@AnnoDomini> | http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-04-01 |
| 15:03 | < Syk> | :< chinese is not fluent computer |
| 15:03 | < Syk> | i go into the language settings in gnome and it has chinese first, then doesn't let me move it |
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| 15:41 | <@iospace> | my bash fu is a bit rusty, is it possible to nest while loops in it or is that a bad idea? |
| 15:42 | <@froztbyte> | You can |
| 15:42 | <@iospace> | kk |
| 15:42 | <@iospace> | then this script should work :3 |
| 15:43 | <@froztbyte> | Just check the scoping info on tldp |
| 15:43 | <@froztbyte> | Or man page |
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| 15:53 | <@AnnoDomini> | Is there something like a reverse-rsync/scp? I want to download something off a remote host that has ssh access, but where FTP fails for unknown reasons. |
| 15:53 | < Syk> | scp works 2 ways i think |
| 15:54 | < Syk> | oh fucking SCP-087B game |
| 15:54 | < Syk> | ruined both the SCP foundation AND searching for the docs |
| 15:56 | < Syk> | AnnoDomini: http://wiki.ljackson.us/Secure_Copy_%28SCP%29#Downloading |
| 15:58 | <@AnnoDomini> | Exgellend. Dhang you! |
| 16:05 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 16:13 | < Syk> | http://sqlanywhere.blogspot.com.au/2008/03/unpublished-mysql-faq.html |
| 16:23 | | RichyB [richardb@Nightstar-3b2c2db2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #code |
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| 16:38 | <@froztbyte> | Rsync also works both ways |
| 17:07 | | Kindamoody|chores is now known as Kindamoody |
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| 18:30 | <@froztbyte> | Syk: there's one of your nation here where I am atm |
| 18:30 | <@froztbyte> | omfg he's annoyng |
| 18:30 | <@froztbyte> | annoying* |
| 18:30 | <@froztbyte> | I want to feed him a vehicle that's moving at some non-negligible speed |
| 18:31 | <@froztbyte> | but before that, is there any off button for annoying australians that you can tell me about? |
| 18:34 | <@iospace> | haha |
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| 19:12 | | * gnolam sets fire to people who type two spaces after a period. |
| 19:16 | | * RichyB doesn't care >99% of the time. Thank fuck for SGML's space-collapsing algorithm! :) |
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| 19:27 | <@froztbyte> | gnolam: mmmm |
| 19:28 | <@froztbyte> | gnolam: I think there are *some* style conditions in which it's acceptable |
| 19:28 | < gnolam> | I don't even know where they get the idea to do that in the first place! |
| 19:28 | <@froztbyte> | but! |
| 19:28 | <@froztbyte> | most of the guilty parties probably don't know that style guides exist |
| 19:28 | <@froztbyte> | (most notable example I can think of is "newspaper columns paragraph shift") |
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| 19:33 | < gnolam> | Newspaper columns paragraph shift? |
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| 19:47 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 19:57 | <@froztbyte> | mm, yeah |
| 19:57 | <@froztbyte> | uhm |
| 19:58 | <@froztbyte> | basically, when they try to make something fit in on a column but can't jack spaces into the whole world, a common thing they'll do will be to insert two spaces after a period if there's a partial sentence continuing from a previous line |
| 19:58 | <@rms> | You talking about the wrap-around the newspapers do that's nigh impossible on the web? |
| 19:59 | <@froztbyte> | another common one is to do "<bigletter> T </bigletter><spacing>h</spacing><spacing>e</spacing> local police\n ..." |
| 19:59 | <@froztbyte> | rms: yeah, something like that |
| 19:59 | <@rms> | Multi-column justified layouts, wee! |
| 20:00 | <@froztbyte> | seeing stuff like that on the internet is likely caused by someone who once saw it in a newspaper once, and figured that's how things should look |
| 20:00 | | * rms doesn't think there's support for justified as an alignment in most browsers. |
| 20:00 | <@rms> | Then again justified is hard to read IMO (sometimes it makes the spaces almost non-existant) |
| 20:01 | <@froztbyte> | the thing is |
| 20:01 | <@froztbyte> | browsers are smarter than a piece of newspaper. |
| 20:01 | <@froztbyte> | trying to enforce justification rules like those on them is just silly. |
| 20:05 | | shawn-p1 [Shawn@Nightstar-4db8c1df.mo.charter.com] has joined #code |
| 20:05 | < gnolam> | RichyB: the problem is that 1%, where you have to edit the crap that other people have written. |
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| 20:09 | < Reiv> | Why are column-justified layouts near impossible? |
| 20:09 | < Reiv> | I've never gotten that limitation. |
| 20:10 | < RichyB> | In web pages? Because there's no way to use the directives in CSS1, 2 or 2.1 together to produce a column-justified layout. |
| 20:11 | < RichyB> | There is, however, a spec in-progress for multi-column layouts. http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-multicol/ |
| 20:11 | < RichyB> | Gecko and Webkit both have incomplete implementations of it, I think. |
| 20:13 | < gnolam> | P(IE implementation) = 0 |
| 20:14 | < RichyB> | caniuse.com claims that IE10 has one. |
| 20:15 | < RichyB> | Opera too, assuming anyone still uses that. |
| 20:17 | <@iospace> | wow |
| 20:17 | < gnolam> | IE10? The Windows 8 (ahaha)-only browser? |
| 20:17 | <@iospace> | the project euler website broke something /fierce/ |
| 20:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Does IE10 actually support it? Or does it "support" it in a manner incompatible with everything else? |
| 20:24 | < Reiv> | Hey, Opera gets used. |
| 20:24 | < Reiv> | It's just still very niche. >_> |
| 20:25 | | * rms stopped using Opera once it was removed from the Arch repos |
| 20:26 | <@iospace> | Low Level Project Euler... am I crazy? |
| 20:26 | <@rms> | It was decent |
| 20:26 | < Reiv> | Arch? |
| 20:27 | <@iospace> | Arch Linux |
| 20:29 | < RichyB> | rms: surely there's an AUR for it, though? |
| 20:30 | | * gnolam stopped keeping Opera around after he decided to never, ever do any web stuff for anyone again unless he got paid handsomely for it. |
| 20:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | I stopped using it once version 12 inexplicably went to shit :/ |
| 20:32 | < RichyB> | gnolam: que? |
| 20:32 | < RichyB> | Why would you have Opera around for testing websites? |
| 20:33 | < gnolam> | To... see if they worked? |
| 20:33 | < RichyB> | The whole point of pragmatic QA is to test against a subset of browsers that accurately reflect everyone in your target demographic up to some particular percentage which you pick as a cost/benefit tradeoff. |
| 20:34 | < gnolam> | Yeees? |
| 20:34 | < RichyB> | I'll follow up that assertion in a few minutes once "wc -l" and "grep -c" both complete. |
| 20:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | gnolam: I believe what he's getting at is that the percentage of people using Opera is small enough that it's not worth using as a QA target. |
| 20:36 | < gnolam> | It is /now/. |
| 20:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | Personally - if I suffered a traumatic head injury and wanted to do web design as a result - I'd want to keep Opera around just for Dragonfly even if it wasn't a QA target. |
| 20:38 | <@AnnoDomini> | According to the w3schools browser statistics, Opera has teetered between 1 and 3 percent prevalence. |
| 20:38 | <@AnnoDomini> | (In the last ten years.) |
| 20:39 | < RichyB> | gnolam: on the sites that I'm working on, we see Opera in about 0.6% of hits. |
| 20:39 | < RichyB> | Which I'm surprised by! I thought it was a lot less than that. |
| 20:39 | <@AnnoDomini> | And IE is lowest in history, at around 16%. |
| 20:39 | <@AnnoDomini> | Chrome and Firefox eat 75% of the market. |
| 20:39 | < RichyB> | AnnoDomini: is that for just one version of IE, though? |
| 20:40 | <@AnnoDomini> | I think all. |
| 20:40 | < RichyB> | Oh, nevermind. w3schools, right. |
| 20:40 | < gnolam> | a) w3schools statistics aren't representative, b) up until recently, Opera was The mobile browser. |
| 20:40 | < RichyB> | High percentage of technophile users. |
| 20:40 | <@AnnoDomini> | I see. |
| 20:40 | <@AnnoDomini> | Are Wikipedia's statistics representative? :P |
| 20:42 | <@AnnoDomini> | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Countries_by_most_used_web_br owser.svg <- Haha! If you're coding for someone in Byelarus, you want Opera. |
| 20:44 | < Reiv> | Does that have a legend? |
| 20:44 | < Reiv> | And yeah, Opera is common in some countries more than others. Reasons, I know not. (Localisation, perhaps?) |
| 20:45 | <@AnnoDomini> | Yes. IE is blue, Chrome is green, Firefox is orange, Opera is red. |
| 20:46 | < Reiv> | So NZ is ahead of the curve, eh?~ |
| 20:47 | <@AnnoDomini> | If by that you mean not favoring Exploder, yes. |
| 20:48 | < Reiv> | Yeah |
| 20:48 | < Reiv> | Though I do wonder about those african ones all running Firefox. |
| 20:48 | < RichyB> | Wikipedia is probably very accurate if you go by browser share by unique users. |
| 20:48 | < RichyB> | Damn near everybody in every anglophile country hits wikipedia. |
| 20:48 | < Reiv> | Is that because what pittance few that actually /have/ access tend to be tech savvy enough to be using non-IE? |
| 20:49 | <@Tarinaky> | Also there are charities that give Linux laptops to schools and such. |
| 20:49 | < RichyB> | It's probably less reflective of the general-populace if you count browser share by hits though, because wiki editors probably skew towards Firefox users. |
| 20:50 | < Reiv> | Why FF? |
| 20:52 | < RichyB> | FF, Chrome, whatever. Nerdy browsers. |
| 20:53 | < RichyB> | Cheap stereotyping mostly, I get the impression that the same kind of mindset of people tend to love FF and be addicted to wikipedia. |
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| 20:58 | < Reiv> | I see. |
| 20:59 | < slim> | hey all |
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| 21:37 | <&Derakon> | Hey, gnolam, you might know about this. |
| 21:37 | <&Derakon> | I want to do basic logical operations on BNC connectors. |
| 21:37 | <&Derakon> | E.g. have a module that accepts two BNC inputs and has one BNC output, and the output is high iff both inputs are high. |
| 21:37 | <&Derakon> | Can't find anything like that online, even though it seems like an obvious product opportunity. |
| 21:38 | <&Derakon> | (More realistically, a module that output the max of the input voltages, and one that output the min of the input voltages, since BNC signals are analog) |
| 21:41 | <&Derakon> | Our actual problem here is that we have multiple light sources that are controlled by a delay generator: the delay generator gets an input signal at T0, and light A opens from T0+w-T0+x, light B opens from T0+y-T0+z. |
| 21:41 | <&Derakon> | But we only actually want one light at a time to be active. |
| 21:41 | <&Derakon> | So we figured, we can have two inputs A and B, and if either is high then the delay generator is activated; the delay generator's outputs are then ANDed with their respective inputs |
| 21:42 | < Reiv> | wut |
| 21:43 | <&Derakon> | Reiv: a delay generator is an extremely high-time-resolution signal source. |
| 21:43 | < Reiv> | I see. |
| 21:43 | <&Derakon> | Like, nanosecond-resolution. |
| 21:43 | < Reiv> | ... Whot. |
| 21:44 | < Reiv> | I take it this illumination is not being done via mechanical or incandescant sources, then |
| 21:44 | < gnolam> | Haven't heard of anything like that, no. |
| 21:44 | <&Derakon> | We send it a signal from a device we control with 32 digital output lines, it waits a precise amount of time, then it sends a precise output pulse. |
| 21:44 | <&Derakon> | Gnolam: alas. |
| 21:45 | <&Derakon> | Maybe an Arduino community would have some ideas. |
| 21:45 | < gnolam> | It's a highly application-specific thing. |
| 21:46 | < gnolam> | Especially since BNC is just a connector and can be used to carry pretty much anything. |
| 21:46 | <&Derakon> | Point. |
| 21:46 | <&Derakon> | So what I should be looking for is basic binary logic modules that can be modified to accept BNC cables. |
| 21:46 | <&Derakon> | (Or custom BNC->other converter cables) |
| 21:47 | <&Derakon> | I have no idea how to search for that kind of thing though. |
| 21:48 | < gnolam> | Also, "extremely high time resolution"? How high are we talking? |
| 21:48 | < gnolam> | Any kind of logic will have a switching time. |
| 21:49 | <&Derakon> | Of course, but this isn't synchronized with anything else. |
| 21:49 | <&Derakon> | We're using it to create very short pulses of light. |
| 21:49 | <&Derakon> | (And realistically we only need microsecond-resolution) |
| 21:49 | <&Derakon> | As long as the switching operation takes constant time we don't care. |
| 21:52 | <&Derakon> | Well...constant time that's not more than a millisecond anyway. :) |
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| 21:53 | < Reiv> | Derakon: : What sort of light sources are these? |
| 21:53 | <&Derakon> | Pulse lasers. |
| 21:53 | < Reiv> | Oh. |
| 21:54 | < Reiv> | I guess that would do it! |
| 21:55 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, we get some pretty neat toys here. :) |
| 21:55 | < Reiv> | I was mostly wondering how the hell you were getting a /light source/ to pull off millisecond timing. |
| 21:56 | < Reiv> | Incandescent bulbs would be right out. :P |
| 21:56 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 21:57 | <&Derakon> | Actually with our current setup most of our lasers are lasing constantly as long as they have power, and illumination of the sample is controlled by physical shutters, which don't provide very even illumination if you try to go below 5ms. |
| 21:58 | <&Derakon> | We currently have one laser controlled by the delay generator, though, and we want to add another. Hence the problem. |
| 21:59 | < Reiv> | Hn |
| 21:59 | < Reiv> | Physical shutters aren't going to be quick enough either, are they? |
| 21:59 | <&Derakon> | The reason we can't go below 5ms is because we start getting uneven exposure across the sample because the actual shuttering time is a significant portion of the exposure time. |
| 22:01 | < Reiv> | Yeah, I was thinking as much. |
| 22:01 | < Reiv> | How big is the sample? |
| 22:02 | <&Derakon> | About 40x40 microns. |
| 22:02 | <&Derakon> | But that's the wrong question. |
| 22:02 | <&Derakon> | What you want to know is how big the light beam is at the point at which it's shuttered, and that I don't know. |
| 22:02 | <&Derakon> | (The light gets focused onto the sample, so its cross-sectional area changes) |
| 22:03 | < Reiv> | Aaah, fair enough. :) |
| 22:03 | < Reiv> | I was actually pondering whether you could swap the shutter for a prisim setup. |
| 22:04 | <&Derakon> | Actually, downstairs we have an acousto-optical modulator that does that. |
| 22:04 | < Reiv> | Thus rather than the mechanical timing delay being closed-opened-closed, you could just 'flick' the beam across the sample. |
| 22:04 | <&Derakon> | It's a crystal whose optical properties change when a voltage is applied. |
| 22:04 | < Reiv> | If that parses. I dunno. |
| 22:04 | <&Derakon> | So at one level it lets through like .1% of the light, then we send a voltage and it's more like 100%. |
| 22:04 | < Reiv> | cute! |
| 22:04 | <&Derakon> | That .1% is still a problem though. |
| 22:05 | <&Derakon> | (And I may be misrepresenting the technology; I'm not an optics expert) |
| 22:05 | | * Reiv nods. |
| 22:05 | < Reiv> | This would be 'wave the beam'. |
| 22:06 | < Reiv> | (Also entirely theoretical; I am just wondering whether something like this would /work/.) |
| 22:06 | <&Derakon> | The difficulty with "waving the beam", I suspect, is that a) you're still relying on physical movement, and b) a lot of light is wasted. |
| 22:07 | <&Derakon> | You have to "wave" it before the light enters a fiber-optic cable, since after that point it must be focused on the sample. |
| 22:07 | <&Derakon> | (Which means that it has to be all going in the same direction) |
| 22:08 | <&Derakon> | I also don't know how rapidly you can precisely wiggle a prism back and forth. |
| 22:08 | < Reiv> | Hm |
| 22:08 | < Reiv> | This is a strobing type thing rather than a 'one very short pulse' issue? |
| 22:08 | < Reiv> | Likewise, light wastage is a concern? |
| 22:09 | <&Derakon> | It strobes, yeah. We can achieve 30FPS with our worst cameras. |
| 22:11 | <&Derakon> | Light wastage, well, mostly we want to have as intense of a light as possible for the duration of the exposure. |
| 22:11 | <&Derakon> | Longer exposures at lower light levels are more damaging on the sample, oddly enough. |
| 22:11 | <&Derakon> | (And potentially framerate-limiting if they go on long enough) |
| 22:12 | < RichyB> | Ordinary CMOS NAND gates like you'll get on a 7401 should have a few nanoseconds of gate delay. |
| 22:12 | <&Derakon> | 7401? |
| 22:13 | < RichyB> | A 7401 is a 14-pin DIP chip that has four two-input NAND gates in it. |
| 22:13 | < RichyB> | 12 pins for the gates, 2 pins +V and GND. |
| 22:14 | < RichyB> | You should be able to pick them up by the binful, cheap, from places like RS components or whatever. |
| 22:15 | < RichyB> | "DIP" means "Dual In-line Package", aka the cheap, easy to solder rectangular chips with legs coming out both sides spaced about 2.5mm-ish apart. |
| 22:15 | < RichyB> | oh, and get a breadboard. |
| 22:16 | < RichyB> | Don't fuck around soldering until you're finished designing and testing the circuit, unless you really can't avoid it. |
| 22:16 | < RichyB> | (e.g. components that only come in SMT mountings or whatever) |
| 22:17 | <&Derakon> | Gotcha, thanks. |
| 22:20 | < RichyB> | Oh and you'll want output drivers, etc. |
| 22:20 | < RichyB> | These things are just logic gates, they won't source much current. |
| 22:21 | <&Derakon> | I was kinda hoping for something that could drive itself (and run the output) off of the input voltages. |
| 22:21 | <&Derakon> | But maybe that's unrealistic; I'm not an EE type of guy. |
| 22:21 | < RichyB> | What are your input and output voltages? |
| 22:21 | <&Derakon> | 0-10V |
| 22:22 | < RichyB> | Okay, use CMOS. And your output current? |
| 22:23 | < RichyB> | That is, use 4011s chips rather than 7401, because 4000-series chips can work at any voltage swing from ~1V to ~18V, whereas the 7400-series stuff's all either TTL or TTL-emulation, which means it's designed for 5V |
| 22:24 | < RichyB> | andddd... AIUI you'll want to use FETs rather than BJTs to pick up the output current, because CMOS gates will barely source enough current to even drive a weeny little bipolar transistor |
| 22:26 | < RichyB> | FETs and MOSFETs are voltage-controlled and activate on tiny currents, whereas BJTs typically have gain values around 100-1000, which means that the chip's output current has to be within a factor 100-1000 of the current that you want to put out. |
| 22:33 | < RichyB> | Derakon: you could probably find someone better at this stuff to talk to than me, I'm just going off what I can remember from electronics classes I took seven or eight years ago. |
| 22:33 | < RichyB> | *and some quick Googling for data sheets. |
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| 22:35 | < RichyB> | Derakon: this may be of use to you! http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/HEF4011B.pdf |
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| 22:43 | <&Derakon> | Thanks for all the advice, Richy. |
| 22:45 | <&Derakon> | Sorry, I've been distracted by RL stuff. |
| 22:58 | <&Derakon> | Hunh, Windows' builtin PDF viewer can't view that data sheet. |
| 22:59 | <&Derakon> | Google has no trouble though. |
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| 23:33 | < gnolam> | Windows has a built-in PDF viewer? |
| 23:37 | <@AnnoDomini> | It does?\ |
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| --- Log closed Wed Nov 28 00:00:08 2012 |