| --- Log opened Wed Nov 07 00:00:05 2012 |
| --- Day changed Wed Nov 07 2012 |
| 00:00 | | Derakon [chriswei@Nightstar-a3b183ae.ca.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: leaving] |
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| 00:11 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
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| 03:57 | < iospace> | Reiv: yeah that's not going to work |
| 03:57 | < iospace> | ... |
| 03:57 | < iospace> | dammit richy |
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| 09:08 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 11:46 | < Syk> | i wish that XBMC's UPnP implementation wasn't completely useless |
| 12:10 | < iospace> | :P |
| 12:10 | | * iospace occupies the space on top of Syk's head |
| 12:14 | | * Syk is occupied |
| 12:17 | <@Azash> | #occupysyk |
| 12:18 | < Syk> | the 1% of the people occupy 100% of the syk |
| 12:18 | < Syk> | down with the io-class |
| 12:19 | < Syk> | down with the io-class |
| 12:19 | < Syk> | uh |
| 12:19 | < Syk> | wrong window there |
| 12:21 | <@Tamber> | xD |
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| 12:31 | < RichyB> | It's more like 3 1/3 % of the people here. |
| 12:31 | < RichyB> | There's only 33 of us, and io is one. |
| 12:31 | < RichyB> | er, brain not working. |
| 12:32 | < RichyB> | 3+(3/90)%. :) |
| 12:36 | <@Azash> | But if you say that 3.03% of people occupy 100% of Syk then Syk is not considered a member of said people, meaning that it's really 100/32 = 25/8 = around 3.125% of people |
| 12:36 | < Syk> | MATH |
| 12:37 | <@Azash> | NOT EVEN ONCE |
| 12:48 | < Syk> | i am terrible at focusing |
| 12:48 | < Syk> | as this game of Natural Selection 2 launching clearly shows |
| 12:58 | < gnolam> | ... aaaand the copter has been delayed once more. |
| 13:00 | < Syk> | ? |
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| 13:55 | < RichyB> | Azash: dang, didn't think of that. |
| 14:06 | < iospace> | RichyB: looking at that sort you gave me the second time? |
| 14:06 | < iospace> | what's the default O(n) on heap? |
| 14:08 | < iospace> | nLogn |
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| 14:09 | < iospace> | in addition to a loop of n where you figure out the length... that sort right there is n^2logn... |
| 14:09 | < RichyB> | iospace: no, the length is figured out once up front. |
| 14:10 | < RichyB> | iospace: it should be O(n) + O(n*log(n)), which simplifies to O(n*log(n)). |
| 14:10 | < iospace> | heh |
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| 14:10 | < iospace> | yeah, it's still probably not going to work for what i use |
| 14:12 | < RichyB> | The proof of whether it's O(n**2) or O(n*log(n)) depends on... whether heap_sift_down is correct. |
| 14:12 | < RichyB> | I might have heap_sift_down wrong there. It should be possible to maintain the heap property without potentially recursing down both trees. |
| 14:13 | < RichyB> | In a correct heapsort, heap_sift_down() is O(log(n)) |
| 14:13 | < RichyB> | mine might be O(n) |
| 14:13 | < RichyB> | if that's the case then I've written an O(n**2) "heap" sort ;) |
| 14:17 | < RichyB> | Maybe I'll hack on it later tonight. |
| 14:17 | < RichyB> | It should be faster than it is. |
| 14:17 | < iospace> | heh |
| 14:19 | | * Syk replaces all of the sort functions with an algorithm that randomly shuffles it and takes that as true |
| 14:19 | < Syk> | according to the multi universe theory |
| 14:19 | < Syk> | there is a universe where you could write an algorithm like that, and it would be correct every time |
| 14:21 | < gnolam> | Syk: looks like ID Sort is for you: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/intelligentdesignsort.html |
| 14:22 | < Syk> | ahaah that's it |
| 14:22 | < Syk> | praise the sorter! |
| 14:48 | < RichyB> | There's a similar mechanism based on the many-worlds concept. |
| 14:49 | < RichyB> | Permute the list randomly using a quantum-mechanical RNG. |
| 14:49 | < RichyB> | If the list isn't sorted, destroy the universe. |
| 14:49 | < RichyB> | Only universes with sorted lists in them will survive. |
| 14:49 | < RichyB> | -> some version of you is now looking at a successfully sorted list! |
| 14:53 | <@Azash> | Quantum bogosort? |
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| 15:20 | <@Azash> | oh god my keyboard is grimy ;_; |
| 15:30 | | * Syk turns it upside down |
| 15:38 | < gnolam> | "It's a matter of seconds - valuable seconds. 200000 transistors, 20000 electron tubes see, report, remember." |
| 15:41 | < AnnoDomini> | >9000 electrons! |
| 15:45 | < RichyB> | Azash: yeah, that one. |
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| 21:09 | <@froztbyte> | http://js1k.com/2012-love/demo/1243 |
| 21:12 | < RichyB> | iospace: hah! Knew it. |
| 21:12 | <@froztbyte> | http://js1k.com/2012-love/demo/1262 |
| 21:12 | < RichyB> | Recursing down both trees during heap_sift_down was making the heap sort O(n**2) instead of O(n*log(n)) |
| 21:16 | < RichyB> | iospace: I just pushed another commit at https://github.com/RichardBarrell/snippets/blob/master/bubble.c |
| 21:19 | < RichyB> | Correctly handles 64<<10 random elements in 0.051s on my laptop, compared to 46.260s for the bubble sort. |
| 21:27 | < iospace> | heh |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | RichyB: Is for a class, as a challenge, or because you need it for something? |
| 21:32 | < RichyB> | McMartin: because iospace mentioned using bubble sort in shipping production code |
| 21:32 | < RichyB> | and I was once a student of computer science |
| 21:32 | < RichyB> | and therefore am offended by the notion |
| 21:32 | <&McMartin> | Very well! |
| 21:32 | < RichyB> | iospace: btw I'll happily slap a 3-clause BSD license or an MIT license notice on that |
| 21:33 | <@TheWatcher> | Someone is wrong on the internet! |
| 21:33 | < RichyB> | It's fairly trivial code, and all possible measures must be taken to purge the taint of bubblesort. |
| 21:33 | <~Vornicus> | I never like heapsort. |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | Man, remember shell sort? |
| 21:34 | < RichyB> | Vornicus: eh. It's in-place, it's hard O(n*log(n)) and the proofs of its correctness and running time are relatively simple. |
| 21:35 | < RichyB> | The only hard O(n*log(n)) sort that is easier to prove correct and asymptotically fast is merge sort, and that one isn't in-place. |
| 21:36 | <~Vornicus> | I didn't remember shell sort, actually |
| 21:36 | <&McMartin> | EXACTLY |
| 21:36 | | * TheWatcher randomly hates all over php from deep within the bowels of mediawiki |
| 21:37 | <~Vornicus> | but I always have a hard time remembering which pieces I'm supposed to reheap in heapsort. |
| 21:39 | < RichyB> | Swap the last leaf with the top, decrement the length of the heap. Then to reheap, start at the top, keep pushing your element down whichever subtree had the bigger element on it. |
| 21:41 | < RichyB> | You have to swap the bigger of the left and right trees' heads, because otherwise you'd immediately re-upset the heap property. :) |
| 21:44 | < RichyB> | TheWatcher: I have been thinking about this. Something is suboptimal on the internet is, I hope, a nobler cause, and is the one that I am pinning my reputation to. |
| 21:45 | <@TheWatcher> | Fair enough! |
| 21:45 | < RichyB> | I mean these computary things we all got |
| 21:45 | < RichyB> | en't so fast, is they? |
| 21:45 | < RichyB> | Needs aller help 'ey can get. |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | Yee-haw |
| 21:51 | <@froztbyte> | I forgot how to figure out the O-rating of a formula |
| 21:51 | <@froztbyte> | and/or algorithm |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | In a certain sense it's counting |
| 21:52 | <@froztbyte> | no, sure, the practical aspect of it is kinda sensible |
| 21:53 | <@froztbyte> | I just forgot how to go about actually doing it |
| 21:53 | <@froztbyte> | but it's been like 6~7 years since I looked at it :D |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | Generally, counting loop nesting depth and what the boundary conditions on those loops are. |
| 21:53 | < gnolam> | It is /literally/ counting, for the most part. |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | Oh, this is two nested loops from 0 to N, this is O(N^2) |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | "This is two nested loops but the outer one divides N by 2 each time, this is O(n log(n)) |
| 21:55 | <@froztbyte> | ah yes |
| 21:55 | <@froztbyte> | and now of course I get the lovely memories of first-year compsci flooding back |
| 21:56 | <@froztbyte> | including the one where the paper had a pretty convoluted sequence of things, and you had to redude the O(x) to its most simple form |
| 21:56 | <@froztbyte> | I think the first part of it before refinement was like half a line of writing |
| 21:56 | <@froztbyte> | (on paper) |
| 21:57 | <@froztbyte> | (our lecturer was mildly evil) |
| 21:57 | | * Vornicus learns of Smoothsort |
| 22:00 | < RichyB> | Vornicus: I actually dug up that paper, printed it 4-sided and read it over a weekend once. |
| 22:00 | < RichyB> | (EWD's smoothsort paper) |
| 22:01 | < RichyB> | I found the proofs hard to follow. Have forgotten most of it since then. |
| 22:05 | | * TheWatcher tends not to care much about formal proofs, honestly - as long as the damned thing passes testing and works in the time it is supposed to for them. Those formal methods guys are /weird/. |
| 22:07 | < RichyB> | If I can't at least give the outline with some hand-waving, whatever I just wrote was guesswork. |
| 22:07 | < RichyB> | I don't recall having ever bothered to formally prove a program. |
| 22:08 | < RichyB> | But constructing a partial proof outline and estimating how difficult it would be to finish it tells you all sorts of things about how likely there are to be bugs there, and how much help the language and your code is/isn't giving you. |
| 22:10 | < RichyB> | e.g. it immediately shows up the fact that fixed-width integer arithmetic is the devil because you have to prove no-overflow or overflow-is-harmless everywhere |
| 22:12 | < RichyB> | it immediately shows up the fact that pointers that didn't come from sticking an "&" next to a sensible lvalue of appropriate lifespan (for instance, NULL) are Satan's left nut because you have to prove that they aren't propagating through your program or at least aren't harmful. |
| 22:13 | | * RichyB will now shut up and stop boring the room. |
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| 22:25 | <@Azash> | <X> "Hey guys, build a satellite in a can" "Okay, let?s do it". |
| 22:25 | <@Azash> | <X> I was programming it and all basic functions worked fine, but then I got in an accident with my scooter and was fucked for days, so my project mates decided that the satellite should be used to fight world hunger by opening a hatch and dropping seeds |
| 22:26 | < ToxicFrog> | |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | METEOR NOMS |
| 22:27 | <@Tamber> | xD |
| 22:31 | <~Vornicus> | I'm trying to imagine how that would go. Not well, I think. |
| 22:31 | <@Tamber> | Probably not. |
| 22:32 | <@Azash> | Apparently the seeds had gotten fungified so they wouldn't drop out anyway |
| 22:32 | <@Tamber> | In my utterly uneducated opinion, the vast majority of the seeds wouldn't survive the trip through the atmosphere in usable condition; those that did would most likely end up in the ocean. |
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| 23:50 | | * syksleep throws her phone at the wall |
| 23:51 | < syksleep> | i love how 'work mobile' means 'call this first!!!!!' to some people |
| 23:54 | < RichyB> | I would not give that number out to people. :/ |
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| --- Log closed Thu Nov 08 00:00:33 2012 |