| --- Log opened Tue Nov 06 00:00:03 2012 |
| 00:10 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-1b266021.as43234.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: ] |
| 00:34 | < syksleep> | waking up late is ALWAYS fun |
| 00:35 | <&Derakon> | So I have a big list of constants that describe various kinds of Things that can be in Pyrel. |
| 00:35 | <&Derakon> | ...oh wait, nevermind, I had this sorted already. |
| 00:36 | <&Derakon> | (I was worried about having container.CONTAINERS to indicate Things that are able to hold other Things, but I already have the CARRIERS tag) |
| 00:40 | < syksleep> | in a game? |
| 00:40 | < syksleep> | heh thatd be funny if it didn't work |
| 00:41 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, Pyrel is a roguelike-in-process. |
| 00:41 | < syksleep> | "<player> stashed 2 leather in the rusted longsword" |
| 00:43 | <&Derakon> | 2 leather what? |
| 00:43 | <&Derakon> | And yeah, that'd be possible if you let longswords have nonzero maxSlots or maxCount. |
| 00:46 | < syksleep> | Derakon: i dunno, i was just making a joke :P |
| 00:47 | < syksleep> | ugh well i'd better be off to work |
| 00:59 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-05d23b97.cable.rogers.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.] |
| 00:59 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-05d23b97.cable.rogers.com] has joined #code |
| 01:08 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 01:12 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:19 | < syksleep> | >v< I love how I just got a helpdesk ticket where someone is requesting access to Adobe Pro... for PDF -> Word |
| 01:19 | < syksleep> | not making word docs into PDF |
| 01:19 | | syksleep is now known as Syk |
| 01:19 | < celticminstrel> | ... |
| 01:20 | < Syk> | i hate people, i really do |
| 01:20 | < celticminstrel> | Is that actually a plausible thing to do even? |
| 01:20 | < Syk> | people make PDFs of forms |
| 01:20 | < celticminstrel> | PDF is a vector format, isn't it? |
| 01:20 | < Syk> | and then don't save the original |
| 01:20 | < Syk> | celticminstrel: the Adobe Pro suite can do it |
| 01:20 | < celticminstrel> | Really? Huh. |
| 01:20 | < Syk> | since PDFs still have text content in them |
| 01:21 | < Syk> | they don't vector draw all the text, they just embed the font |
| 01:21 | < celticminstrel> | Right. |
| 01:22 | < Syk> | but, as guessable, do anything with any layout at all, and the document comes out the other side in worse shape than a cow carcass going through a combine harvester |
| 01:23 | < celticminstrel> | The text isn't stored in a flow, right? It'd be more along the lines of "put this text string at these coordinates on this page"? |
| 01:23 | < Syk> | yep |
| 01:23 | < Syk> | it mangles it, don't worry |
| 01:23 | < celticminstrel> | Why did you think I'd worry? |
| 01:24 | < Syk> | figure of speech |
| 01:24 | < celticminstrel> | Okay, but why'd you use it? |
| 01:24 | < celticminstrel> | Or perhaps, why did you say that line at all. |
| 01:26 | | mac [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-fe8a1f12.il.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 01:26 | < mac> | hey quick question are any of you familiar with old hardware? and i do mean ol. |
| 01:26 | < mac> | old* |
| 01:27 | <&McMartin> | Like Commodore 64s? |
| 01:28 | < Syk> | celticminstrel: I dunno? |
| 01:28 | < Syk> | "don't worry" is just sort of a standard term here |
| 01:28 | < mac> | like older than that i think |
| 01:28 | < Syk> | even if it's being used sarcastically like I did (because you're not worrying :P) |
| 01:28 | < mac> | take a look for ye self http://www.whaleblubber.net/cpu1.JPG http://www.whaleblubber.net/cpu2.JPG http://www.whaleblubber.net/cpu3.JPG |
| 01:28 | < celticminstrel> | Sigh. Never mind. >_> |
| 01:29 | < Syk> | ?? |
| 01:30 | < mac> | im trying to figure out what time period it comes from, its a cpu. Mcmartin any insite would be greatly helpful |
| 01:30 | < Syk> | mac: that looks like some kind of prototyping board |
| 01:30 | < mac> | any idea on the age? |
| 01:33 | <&McMartin> | Googling the serial number gave me an industrial controls catalog |
| 01:33 | < gnolam> | I doubt it's commercial. |
| 01:34 | < gnolam> | But hey, CPU by way of wire-wrapping gate/flip-flop packages? Always nice. :) |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | "Modcomp, 510-100411-001C, PC Board" is the phrase that keeps popping up |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | "MODCOMP (Modular Computer Systems, Inc) was a small minicomputer vendor that specialized in real-time applications." |
| 01:35 | <&McMartin> | The photos match up |
| 01:35 | <&McMartin> | http://bickleywest.com/modcomp.htm |
| 01:35 | <&McMartin> | Early 1970s. These were *minicomputers*. |
| 01:35 | < mac> | lol, yeah im using it on loan from an old teacher for a speech im doing on moore's law |
| 01:35 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, this looks like a minicomputer CPU board from MODCOMP, Inc. |
| 01:35 | < mac> | I LOVE YOU XD mcmartin |
| 01:36 | | * McMartin googled the serial number from the board there and crossreferenced through catalogs to get the company name, then wiki'd the company name to get the External Links site to photos. |
| 01:36 | | * McMartin documents the process when it isn't just lmgtfy.com |
| 01:37 | <&McMartin> | That is an artifact, dude. Take care of it |
| 01:37 | < mac> | its on loan, so yeah ill take good care of it. |
| 01:38 | < Syk> | McMartin that was some csi stuff going on right there |
| 01:39 | < Syk> | lol |
| 01:39 | < mac> | lol |
| 01:40 | < mac> | again i cant thank you enough, you have one I owe you. |
| 01:40 | < mac> | maybe 2 |
| 01:42 | < mac> | mcmartin , do you have a steam account? I can throw you a copy of a game.(justcause2 , and if you dont want to play it, you can always just use it to barter with someone else) |
| 01:42 | < mac> | if you play steam games of course. |
| 01:42 | <&McMartin> | I do, I'm [<3]Bromide, aren't we already friends? And I also already have JC2 |
| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | I am Well Provided with games, don't worry |
| 01:43 | <&Derakon> | This mac is not macdjord, I'm pretty sure. |
| 01:43 | < mac> | no, im not macdjord , soz |
| 01:44 | < mac> | ive talked with macdjord before about using this nick. im supposed to be buying it from him sometime :/ |
| 01:45 | < Reiv> | ... you are /also/ macdjord? |
| 01:45 | < Reiv> | How does that work. |
| 01:45 | < Syk> | owo |
| 01:45 | < mac> | what? |
| 01:45 | < Syk> | steams |
| 01:45 | < Syk> | i have like 260 games on steam |
| 01:46 | < Syk> | it's hilarious how few i actually play |
| 01:46 | < mac> | mcmartin , are you sure you dont want it, you can use it to trade |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | This is what Backloggery.com is for |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | mac: It's cool |
| 01:46 | | * Syk stares at the Duke Nukem Forever icon |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | Pay it forward |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | Syk: OK, that one you can probably not play~ |
| 01:47 | < mac> | <3 |
| 01:47 | < Reiv> | As a sidenote: Just Cause 2; was it any good? |
| 01:47 | < Syk> | JC2 is freakin AMAZING |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | I'm looking forward to losing a few dozen hours to it |
| 01:47 | < Syk> | i have like |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | But I'm still working through my Historical Backlog too, so I'll get to it when I get a chance |
| 01:48 | < Syk> | wait uh |
| 01:48 | < Syk> | i have 406 games on steam |
| 01:48 | < Syk> | wtf |
| 01:48 | <&McMartin> | DLC is counted weirdly |
| 01:48 | < Syk> | >Red Faction Guerilla: 70.5 hours on record |
| 01:49 | < Syk> | daaaaamn right |
| 01:49 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 01:49 | <&McMartin> | My top five seem to be SPiral Knights, ME2, ME1, Dungeon Defenders (from back when it was playable >_<), and Fallout 3. |
| 01:49 | <&McMartin> | Then Civ 4~ |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | This is almost entirely unrepresentative of the kinds of games I usually play |
| 01:50 | < Syk> | RF:G, Garry's Mod, ARMA2 (yay DayZ), EvE (oh god that was like 2 years ago), and HL2:Ep2 |
| 01:50 | < Syk> | how the fuck did I spend 41 hours playin Ep2 and 40.4 playing Ep1 |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | Left it paused, forgot about it? |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | Garden gnome jackassery? |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | (band name alert) |
| 01:51 | < Syk> | no, I think this was me actually playing it |
| 01:51 | < Reiv> | DD is not actually playable? |
| 01:51 | < Syk> | i also spent 20 hours playing HL2 |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | DD was always kind of unbalanced and they kept making it worse and they've decided to stop while they're behind |
| 01:52 | < Syk> | oh yeah, 19h playing World In Conflict <3 |
| 01:52 | < gnolam> | Reiv: JC2: absolutely gorgeous engine. But the game reeks of wasted potential. |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | Syk: HL2 is about a 20h game, IIRC |
| 01:52 | < Reiv> | McM: Define unbalanced? |
| 01:52 | < Syk> | i |
| 01:52 | < Syk> | i played so many hours of JC2 |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: Everything is either utterly trivial or utterly impossible |
| 01:52 | <&Derakon> | I have, uh, 84 hours logged on HL2. But I've played through it at least three times and probably left it paused in the background occasionally. |
| 01:52 | < Syk> | but that was a dubious version so it's not on steam |
| 01:52 | | * McMartin beat HL2 once, has 21.8h logged |
| 01:52 | < Syk> | i have a legit copy now, because it's good |
| 01:52 | < Reiv> | I see. |
| 01:53 | < Syk> | i played through HL2 with just the revolver |
| 01:53 | < Syk> | naturally it required cheats |
| 01:53 | < gnolam> | It gets monotonous fairly quickly, and there's no real depth in it. |
| 01:54 | < Syk> | well revolver + grav gun |
| 01:54 | < Syk> | i don't think my brother's even finished HL2 yet |
| 01:54 | | * McMartin spent 4.5h on Ep1 and 6.7h on Ep2 |
| 01:54 | < Syk> | he's spent like 15 hours trying to finish Black Mesa Source |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | I still need to play HL1 |
| 01:54 | < gnolam> | However... being able to chain someone to a gas cylinder, fire at it to set it off like a rocket and watch him go skywards makes up for a lot of JC2's flaws. :) |
| 01:54 | | * gnolam has over 100 hours logged in HL2. |
| 01:54 | < Syk> | McMartin: play Black Mesa Source instead |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | I have been advised that this is not as good unless you already played HL1 |
| 01:55 | < gnolam> | But I've had legitimate reasons to play it that much.~ |
| 01:55 | < Reiv> | legitimate reasons? You're a modder or? |
| 01:55 | < Syk> | I've never played HL1 through to the end and BMS is 2nd in my GOTY list |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | Yes, "to the end" is unnecessary |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | Also, some of this is historical interest |
| 01:56 | < Syk> | i got to like... the 1st level |
| 01:56 | < Syk> | then hl2.exe crashed |
| 01:56 | < gnolam> | Reiv: yeah. Got paid to implement a radiation protection exercise simulator in it. |
| 01:56 | < Syk> | and HL1 non-source doesn't age too well |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | I didn't get around to playing Deus Ex until last year, and didn't get around to playing Planescape: Torment or Fallout until this year |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | That's Fallout 1, mind you |
| 01:57 | < Syk> | regardless, Black Mesa Source is an utterly brilliant game |
| 01:57 | < Syk> | it was worth the wait |
| 01:57 | | * Syk stares at Duke Nukem Forever, which wasn't |
| 01:58 | | * McMartin writes about games. https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/stack.html |
| 01:58 | < Syk> | wait... if DNF is out... and BMS is out... and Natural Selection 2 is out |
| 01:58 | < Reiv> | Gnolam: Aha, cute |
| 01:58 | < Syk> | ...what do we use for vaporware now? |
| 01:59 | < Reiv> | 2012: The Year Of Condensation |
| 01:59 | <&McMartin> | Maybe stuff will keep getting released and we won't have to! |
| 02:00 | < celticminstrel> | Oh, McM didn't like Machinarium. Interesting. |
| 02:01 | | * McMartin *really* didn't like Machinarium |
| 02:01 | <&McMartin> | I am vaguely aware this is a minority viewpoint |
| 02:02 | < celticminstrel> | I dunno, I kinda dislike the opaqueness of the ToMI puzzles, so I might agree with you on Machinarium if I were to try it. |
| 02:02 | < Syk> | ugh god i see you have trauma there McMartin |
| 02:02 | < celticminstrel> | ToMI makes up for it by being utterly and ridiculously hilarious, so it's not too bad. |
| 02:02 | | * Syk /despises/ Trauma |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | Trauma Was Bad |
| 02:03 | < Syk> | http://reddrgn.net/tidbits/a/trauma.html (nsfw language) |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | But yes, around late 2010 I decided to start actually playing all these games that pile up |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | This includse many a bad game |
| 02:03 | < Syk> | i wrote an article about it even |
| 02:03 | | * celticminstrel sees Within a Deep Forest on the list. Completed that awhile ago. |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | OTOH, Superbrothers Swords & Sworcery was not nearly as terrible as I expected it to be |
| 02:03 | < celticminstrel> | Might've had some minor walkthroughish help on it though... |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | It actually is what Trauma wanted to be |
| 02:04 | < celticminstrel> | (ToMI = Tales of Monkey Island, by the way.) |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | (Yes |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | (It's on my stack, I haven't gotten around to it because it's not Steam and thus not in my face all the time~) |
| 02:04 | < celticminstrel> | Prince of Persia... I remember a DOS platformer by that name. |
| 02:04 | < celticminstrel> | (What's not Steam?) |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | (My copy of ToMI) |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | And yes |
| 02:04 | < celticminstrel> | (Oh.) |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | Prince of Persia is a series that's older than Mario |
| 02:05 | < celticminstrel> | I never actually played said game. I only remember launching it, having no clue how to do anything, and somehow exiting it. |
| 02:05 | <~Vornicus> | What |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | If Zelda 64 defined the 3D platformer originally, Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time (2001) defined the modern 3D "realistic" platformer. |
| 02:05 | <~Vornicus> | No, no |
| 02:05 | < celticminstrel> | Well, anything other than movement. |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | (Also, Prince of Persia was originally for the Apple II. It was widely ported.) |
| 02:06 | <~Vornicus> | PoP is 1989 |
| 02:06 | < celticminstrel> | SpaceChem I like, though I don't seem to find much time to play it (and my savegames annoyingly seemed to have been deleted at least once already). |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | Oh, whoops |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | I thought it was much earlier than that |
| 02:06 | < celticminstrel> | Oh there's Rayman. |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | I have since forgiven Michel Ancel for Rayman |
| 02:07 | <~Vornicus> | Donkey Kong was 1981, and Mario Bros. was 1983 |
| 02:08 | < celticminstrel> | Nearly much my only contact with that was in a gaming store where they had it on a console and you could play it. It was a 3D game though, so probably not the one on your list. (Actually I encounterd a 2D Rayman at my great-uncle's house in Liverpool, I think. Or one of his children's houses. I dunno.) |
| 02:08 | <~Vornicus> | Mario 64 probably defined the 3d platformer; Crash Bandicoot was earlier but was much more mode-switching 2d |
| 02:08 | < celticminstrel> | These games look to be in no particular order. :P |
| 02:09 | < Syk> | raymaaaaan |
| 02:09 | < Syk> | celticminstrel: most Raymans have been 2D, which is what it is best t |
| 02:09 | < Syk> | at |
| 02:09 | < celticminstrel> | Fallout... I just downloaded that from gog.com after having apparently gotten it free at some point in the past that I forgor. |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: They are in the order that I play them in |
| 02:09 | < Syk> | Rayman... 3? i think? was 3D and it wasn't as good |
| 02:10 | < celticminstrel> | Syk: Yeah, but my first contact was a 3D one. |
| 02:10 | <&McMartin> | Rayman 3 was one of the few games bad enough to make me ragequit it |
| 02:10 | <&McMartin> | Rayman 2 was 3D and not bad |
| 02:10 | <&McMartin> | Rayman Origins was 2D and fabulous |
| 02:10 | <&McMartin> | Also, all the drugs |
| 02:10 | < celticminstrel> | I'm not sure whether it was 2 or 3 that I saw. |
| 02:10 | <&McMartin> | Ubisoft Montreal solved all of Quebec's drug problems by buying ALL THE DRUGS and giving them to the design team |
| 02:10 | < celticminstrel> | I suspect 2 though. |
| 02:10 | <~Vornicus> | Ocarina of TIme came out 2 years after Mario 64. |
| 02:10 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | Hm |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | Zelda 64 feels closer to Tomb Raider's genre than Mario 64 does to either |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | And that's where the 3D PoPs spring from too |
| 02:11 | < celticminstrel> | So, no more than five games on your list that I own or have played. |
| 02:11 | <~Vornicus> | Crash Bandicoot came out 2 months after Mario 64 |
| 02:12 | < Syk> | McMartin: rayman origins is pretty good |
| 02:12 | < celticminstrel> | I expect I'll try Fallout sometime soonish. |
| 02:12 | < Syk> | i need to play it some more |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | Fallout 1 is quite good |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | I still need to play FONV |
| 02:12 | <~Vornicus> | I couldn't get into Fallout 1. I really can't stand time units |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | Fallout 1's RPG system is more than a little bit broken |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | I go into that some in my writeup |
| 02:13 | < celticminstrel> | I suspect I grabbed it partly on assurances that it wasn't a FPS. |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | It certainly isn't that |
| 02:13 | < Syk> | McMartin: FO:NV is... forettable |
| 02:13 | < Syk> | forgettable* |
| 02:13 | < Syk> | McMartin: imagine Fallout 3 bugs times a thousand |
| 02:13 | < Syk> | it doesn't even have the charm that FO3 has |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | My attitude towards post-apoc fic is such that FO3 had negative charm, actually |
| 02:14 | < Syk> | brb rain |
| 02:14 | < celticminstrel> | I also obtained Starflight 1+2 yesterday. |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | FONV promises to improve on that. |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | I should have gotten those, but convinced myself that they'll be on sale again by the time I get around to wanting to play them. |
| 02:14 | < Syk> | McMartin: the problem with FONV is that it's fairly broken |
| 02:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | Syk: for the record, you are the first person I have heard say FONV had more bugs than FO3 |
| 02:14 | < Syk> | you're playing it on PC correct? |
| 02:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | (I don't really have a good basis for comparison, because I haven't played FO3) |
| 02:15 | < Syk> | ToxicFrog: FO3 had humorous bugs. |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | I am playing on PC. |
| 02:15 | < Syk> | FONV has crippling, game breaking bugs. |
| 02:15 | < celticminstrel> | Apart from Civ4 expansions and ToMI chapters past the one I'm currently in, the only game on Steam that I haven't played yet is Portal 2, which is because I can't. |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | All of this is PC unless otherwise stated; the most modern consoles I own are a Wii and a PS2. |
| 02:15 | < Syk> | McMartin: oh that should be slightly k then |
| 02:15 | < celticminstrel> | Wii is the only console I own. |
| 02:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | Syk: I've played through the entire game twice with all the DLC and the only bugs I've observed are the occasional pathing issue and one or two CTDs after all-day play sessions |
| 02:15 | < celticminstrel> | It's highly likely that this will be true for a very long time. |
| 02:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh, and you can permanently disable the force field around the Sink by messing around with the sonic emitter >> |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | FO3 had DLC interactions that would wreck the game if you played the DLCs in the wrong order or at the wrong times |
| 02:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Wreck in which sense? |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | I am Familiar with WRPG software stability and have learned to read walkthroughs in ways that spoil only the game-killing bugs |
| 02:17 | < Reiv> | Starflight? |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | TF: "Main plot quests are marked as completed out of order without you solving them, meaning the event triggers required for game progression no longer occur" |
| 02:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh |
| 02:17 | < celticminstrel> | Yes, Starflight. |
| 02:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, haven't observed that in FONV, but the DLC can easily throw the difficulty curve out of whack |
| 02:17 | < celticminstrel> | Apparently a (spiritual) predecessor of Star Control 2 and Mass Effect. |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | In particular, running Mothership Zeta after completing "The Waters of Life" but before finishing the main quest can render the main game uncompletable. |
| 02:18 | < Reiv> | ... I have not heard of this game. |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | The debt Star Control 2 owes to Starflight and Starflight 2 is pretty blatant |
| 02:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: I've played. It's pretty much as he describes. A bit of a learning curve, though. |
| 02:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, a lot of a learning curve |
| 02:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | But yeah, SC2 is very much Starflight 3 with the serial numbers filed off |
| 02:18 | < celticminstrel> | I hadn't heard of it either until maybe a year or so ago. |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | Also, the guys behind Starflight voice several of the aliens in the 3DO version of SC2. |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | So those serial numbers aren't filed off *very hard*, no |
| 02:19 | | * Reiv scratches his head |
| 02:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: anyways, Dead Money, Old World Blues, and The Lonesome Road can all cough up gear that's hilariously overpowered for the point in the game at which they become accessible. |
| 02:19 | < Reiv> | So Starflight is /prior/ to SC2? |
| 02:19 | < celticminstrel> | I presume they don't have the same alien races though. And yes, it is. |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | TF: Yes, FO3 had this issue as well |
| 02:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: it's a different continuity. |
| 02:20 | < Reiv> | Which is old enough it then got turned into UQM? |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | YEs on all counts |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | IIRC Starflight 1 was EGA era |
| 02:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you mean "was released earlier than", yes, SF1 was released in '86 |
| 02:20 | < celticminstrel> | CK1 was EGA era, wasn't it? |
| 02:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | And then remade for the Genesis in '91 |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | CK1? |
| 02:21 | < celticminstrel> | Commander Keen. |
| 02:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: not sure it's quite as overpowered as "completely indestructable power armour" |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | Yes. |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | TF: That was the *least* broken reward for that quest |
| 02:21 | < celticminstrel> | I think I recall CK4 having EGA and VGA versions. |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | The other two were a suit that rendered you permanently invisible, and the Gauss Rifle, a hitscan energy weapon with twice the range of the sniper rifle |
| 02:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 02:22 | < celticminstrel> | Speaking of CK, I wish there was a legal way to obtain CK6. :/ |
| 02:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Dead Money gives you a gauss rifle and the Holograph Rifle >.> |
| 02:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's also pretty difficult and locks you in, though. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | The PERMANENT INVISIBILITY suit also didn't qualify as a full suit, so you could add accessories. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=97634822 |
| 02:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | OWB has the sonic emitter and a bunch of highly entertaining melee weapons. The Lonesome Road has a rapid fire rocket launcher. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | I pretty much never spec Big Guns |
| 02:25 | < Syk> | ToxicFrog: i had lots of weird crashes |
| 02:25 | < Syk> | and the quests are weird |
| 02:26 | < Syk> | like... one quest is 'go talk to x' |
| 02:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | (sonic emitter set to "make everyone's head explode" was my go-to weapon for most of the game after OWB) |
| 02:26 | < Syk> | and x is hostile? |
| 02:26 | < Reiv> | TF: Ammo limitations? |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | Syk: I had Trouble On The Home Front in FO3 and some random thing in Megaton both do that to me in FO3, so |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | Both required restoring from an earlier save |
| 02:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | Syk: only time I've seen that happen is when you piss of the faction related to the quest |
| 02:27 | < Syk> | I had done like 3 quests |
| 02:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | Eg, if you get a quest to talk to some NCR trooper and then spend a while setting NCR guys on fire, he is probably not going to be well disposed towards you when you finally meet him |
| 02:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | In my case this usually involves the Legion~ |
| 02:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | There's also some mutually exclusive quests, eg, you'll get "defend the village from the bandits" and "help the bandits raid the village" simultaneously and can only complete one. |
| 02:29 | < Reiv> | What happens if you've already killed all the bandits and stolen their socks? |
| 02:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | Good question. |
| 02:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | I generally put down mines. |
| 02:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Syk: do you remember what the specific quest was? |
| 02:34 | < Syk> | ToxicFrog: it was like at the start, with the uh |
| 02:34 | < Syk> | the jail? |
| 02:34 | < Syk> | i dunno |
| 02:34 | < Syk> | but someone was like 'go talk to x! :D' |
| 02:34 | < Syk> | and then X was shooting me with a shotgun on sight |
| 02:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...the jail? |
| 02:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh, hang on |
| 02:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | NCR Correctional Facility (Occupied), southeast of the town you start in? |
| 02:36 | < Syk> | ...I think so? |
| 02:36 | < Syk> | I think the quest was given to me by an NCR guy, I think? |
| 02:36 | < Syk> | or the sherriff |
| 02:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | If your resolution to the quest in the town you started in involved turning a bunch of bandits into chunky salsa, the guys at the NCRCF are shooting at you because you just killed a bunch of their friends |
| 02:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | Likewise if you pried open that bandit camp at the crossroads and stole all of their delicious explosives |
| 02:37 | < Syk> | i think it was the sheriff |
| 02:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Now I'm completely baffled |
| 02:39 | < Syk> | this is exactly why I uninstalled it :| |
| 02:39 | < Syk> | but eh |
| 02:39 | < Syk> | I have other games now |
| 02:39 | < Syk> | like Natural Selection 2 |
| 02:40 | < Syk> | Monash had a 48 player server and goddamn it was awesome |
| 02:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | I mean, I can't even figure out who you mean by "the sherrif" |
| 02:41 | < Syk> | the guy in the casino thing |
| 02:41 | < Syk> | you rescue some guy in the casino in the town |
| 02:41 | < Syk> | and he's the sherriff |
| 02:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh |
| 02:41 | < Syk> | and iirc the sheriff tells you to talk to this guy |
| 02:42 | < Syk> | i think |
| 02:42 | < Syk> | but eh doesn't matter :P |
| 02:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Primm |
| 02:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | Huh. Lt. Hayes - who I think is who you're talking about - has two quests I never even saw. |
| 02:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | Even in the playthrough where he survived >.> |
| 02:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh, cool. Ok, you triggered a plot branch I never even saw - rescue a former sheriff from the NCRCF and bring him back to Primm. |
| 02:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | You probably clipped him with something when you fought your way into the NCRCF. |
| 02:47 | < Syk> | :< |
| 02:48 | < Syk> | see, this is why I don't like FO:NV |
| 02:52 | < Syk> | buh rain passed us by again |
| 03:10 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 03:15 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Program Shutting down] |
| 04:23 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 05:23 | <@froztbyte> | haha: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sergey/langsec/occupy/ |
| 06:00 | | Syloq_Home [Syloq@NetworkAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 06:20 | | McMartin [mcmartin@Nightstar-3895ee8e.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 06:20 | | McMartin [mcmartin@Nightstar-3895ee8e.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #code |
| 06:20 | | mode/#code [+ao McMartin McMartin] by ChanServ |
| 06:25 | | ErikMesoy|sleep is now known as ErikMesoy |
| 06:28 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 06:33 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-05d23b97.cable.rogers.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] |
| 07:02 | < gnolam> | https://code.google.com/p/xee/source/browse/XeePhotoshopLoader.m#102 |
| 07:14 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-1b266021.as43234.net] has joined #code |
| 07:21 | < Syk> | heh |
| 07:32 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 07:38 | | mac [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-fe8a1f12.il.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Page closed] |
| 08:01 | < Syk> | buh |
| 08:01 | < Syk> | if i'm going to go for this thoughtworks job, I might need to study some theory stuff... |
| 08:05 | | * Syk aughs. Bets she'll get to interview questions and fall apart :| |
| 08:07 | <&McMartin> | Try not to pre-smite yourself >_< |
| 08:07 | < Syk> | I won't |
| 08:07 | < Syk> | but I'm looking at this thing about interview questions |
| 08:07 | < Syk> | and I honestly don't know how to do anything lower level |
| 08:07 | < Syk> | i've never had the time nor the reason to do anything low level :c |
| 08:09 | < Syk> | but then again, it looks like ThoughtWorks would use more high level stuff than C anyway... |
| 08:09 | <&McMartin> | Low level stuff and theory stuff are kind of opposites >_> |
| 08:10 | < Syk> | well, I don't know anything about theory, and I don't know, for example, exactly how linked lists and hashtables work |
| 08:10 | <&McMartin> | Hm |
| 08:10 | <&McMartin> | You know stuff like when to use a linked list and when to use an array-based list, though, right? |
| 08:11 | < Syk> | i've never used a linked list, I think |
| 08:11 | < Syk> | ...maybe I have |
| 08:11 | < Syk> | I don't know! :c |
| 08:11 | <&McMartin> | java.util.LinkedList vs. java.util.ArrayList |
| 08:11 | <&McMartin> | std::list vs. std::vector |
| 08:12 | <&McMartin> | Python only has hashtables by default, C++ only has red-black trees at the currently implemented standardization level |
| 08:13 | < Syk> | I've used std::vector |
| 08:13 | < Syk> | but my C++ is laughable |
| 08:13 | < Syk> | I've never been able to really put the time into any language worth a damn, really |
| 08:13 | < Syk> | hopefully that changes once I've got more time to myself... |
| 08:15 | < Syk> | since everything at work has been VB.NET - since I wasn't ever allowed to put any time into using anything else - so i'm sort of ruined by high-level |
| 08:15 | < Syk> | augh. |
| 08:16 | < Syk> | this would work out so much better if I knew I'd be job hunting six months ago |
| 08:17 | <&McMartin> | If you plan on branching out as a hobby, C# is probably a good first step. You'll be able to recycle a lot of your library knowledge. |
| 08:17 | < Syk> | I want to avoid .NET |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | I mean, I can write Java and JS for node and stuff |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | but I've just barely had any practice with it |
| 08:18 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 08:18 | | * McMartin is professionally a C++ developer and doesn't think anyone should use it unless they have to |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | and I get most of the concepts |
| 08:19 | < Syk> | its just that then I don't know what they're called |
| 08:19 | < Syk> | or how to implement them in X or Y |
| 08:19 | | * McMartin nods |
| 08:19 | <&McMartin> | The best Grand Tour I'm aware of is MIT's intro CS text, the Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs |
| 08:19 | <&McMartin> | Of course, it does it in a LISP dialect |
| 08:20 | < Syk> | is that the one with the glowing lambda on the front |
| 08:20 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ |
| 08:20 | < Syk> | I really just wish I had more time. |
| 08:21 | < Syk> | well... I have until January the 15th to be out of where I'm living currently. |
| 08:21 | < Syk> | so, calling it safe, I guess I have until the New Year to figure out what I'm doing |
| 08:22 | < Syk> | and I have what amounts to a year's pay saved up in case of a rainy day |
| 08:23 | < Syk> | so I guess I can just take December to polish up on everything and get the time to work on what I need to do |
| 08:25 | < Syk> | it's not like the job market will disappear in three months |
| 08:25 | < Syk> | blah, it's home time. brb |
| 08:42 | < Syk> | ugh just what I needed |
| 08:42 | < Syk> | got in the front door, brother jumps from around corner going ROAR |
| 08:42 | < Syk> | now my headache is back :| |
| 08:45 | | Vash [Vash@Nightstar-b43e074a.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: I lovecraft Vorn!] |
| 09:05 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 09:25 | | gnolaptop [lenin@Nightstar-b76c0a85.eduroam.liu.se] has joined #code |
| 10:19 | | RichyB [richardb@Nightstar-3bcd1b60.bb.sky.com] has joined #code |
| 10:42 | | EvilDarkLord [jjlehto3@Nightstar-a5db08cc.org.aalto.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 10:58 | | gnolaptop [lenin@Nightstar-b76c0a85.eduroam.liu.se] has quit [[NS] Quit: Gone] |
| 11:43 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-6ca59a6f.callplus.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 11:53 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-6ca59a6f.callplus.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 11:56 | | EvilDarkLord [jjlehto3@Nightstar-a5db08cc.org.aalto.fi] has joined #code |
| 13:03 | | Alek [omegaboot@Nightstar-56dbba0f.in.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 13:03 | | mode/#code [+o Alek] by ChanServ |
| 13:19 | < Syk> | man, reading the twisted docs |
| 13:19 | < Syk> | this stuff is almost scarily easy |
| 13:41 | <@froztbyte> | :) |
| 13:41 | <@froztbyte> | are you following in the krondo tuts? |
| 13:48 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 13:53 | | shawn-p [Shawn@Nightstar-4db8c1df.mo.charter.com] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 13:53 | | shawn-p [Shawn@Nightstar-4db8c1df.mo.charter.com] has joined #code |
| 13:56 | < Syk> | froztbyte: I got a bit through, had a little look at the Twisted docs themselves |
| 14:06 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-05d23b97.cable.rogers.com] has joined #code |
| 14:23 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 14:47 | < Tarinaky> | Stupid question99: |
| 14:48 | < Tarinaky> | If I have a function that returns a random number in [0,1] with a Gaussian distribution (standard deviation 1) |
| 14:48 | < Tarinaky> | What happens if I multiply two of these random numbers together? |
| 14:50 | <@TheWatcher> | Your spleen explodes. |
| 14:50 | < Tarinaky> | Does this change the standard deviation? |
| 14:50 | < Tarinaky> | Does this change any other properties of the curve? |
| 14:54 | < Syk> | um |
| 14:54 | < Syk> | my math might be a bit rusty |
| 14:55 | < Syk> | ...wait no, i'm parse erroring |
| 14:55 | < Syk> | yeah i don't know |
| 14:58 | < Tarinaky> | I'm trying to figure out how to coax wolfram alpha into showing me if it does |
| 14:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | My statistics are too rusty to tell you exactly what this does. |
| 14:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | Sorry. |
| 15:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Likewise, my mind blotted out as much of it could of my stats years |
| 15:05 | <~Vornicus> | Tarinaky: uh, problem there |
| 15:05 | <~Vornicus> | The normal/gaussian distribution is of infinite extent. |
| 15:06 | <~Vornicus> | the interval you show there only contains about 34% of the whole distribution |
| 15:08 | | Syloq_Home [Syloq@NetworkAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 15:09 | < Tarinaky> | Vornicus: java.util.Random.nextGaussian returns a value in [0,1] |
| 15:09 | <~Vornicus> | That's just weirdassed. |
| 15:09 | < Tarinaky> | This is, strictly, a code question - not a maths one >.< |
| 15:09 | < Tarinaky> | Oh wait. |
| 15:09 | < Tarinaky> | No. |
| 15:09 | < Tarinaky> | I misread. |
| 15:09 | < Tarinaky> | Hmm. |
| 15:10 | < Tarinaky> | Returns the next pseudorandom, Gaussian ("normally") distributed double value with mean 0.0 and standard deviation 1.0 from this random number generator's sequence. |
| 15:10 | <~Vornicus> | Anyway: the operation you're looking for is Convolution |
| 15:10 | < Tarinaky> | So it's between (-1,1) |
| 15:10 | < Tarinaky> | No. Wait. |
| 15:10 | < Tarinaky> | Still FAILING TO READ |
| 15:10 | <~Vornicus> | No, it's still not that, that's only 68% of the space |
| 15:10 | | * Tarinaky hits himself. |
| 15:11 | < Tarinaky> | Okay. Forget that >.> |
| 15:12 | < Tarinaky> | If I add some constant to it... that'll shift the mean to the right, yes? |
| 15:14 | <~Vornicus> | yeah |
| 15:15 | <~Vornicus> | Actually no that's not convolve, hang on. |
| 15:15 | < Tarinaky> | Okay. Lets start again. |
| 15:15 | < Tarinaky> | What do I -want- to be doing? |
| 15:15 | <~Vornicus> | To shift the mean and standard devation of your normally-distributed variable? |
| 15:16 | <~Vornicus> | Multiply by the desired standard deviation, add the desired mean |
| 15:17 | < Tarinaky> | Is there a method to strip the sign part of a variable? |
| 15:17 | <~Vornicus> | abs |
| 15:17 | < Tarinaky> | Since a negative value would be erroneous in context >.> |
| 15:17 | <~Vornicus> | But |
| 15:17 | <~Vornicus> | what the hell |
| 15:18 | < Tarinaky> | Group Project 'game'. |
| 15:18 | <~Vornicus> | Okay, step through what you want, and why you want it |
| 15:19 | < Tarinaky> | Players have monsters. |
| 15:19 | < Tarinaky> | These monsters have a bunch of hereditory attributes. |
| 15:19 | < Tarinaky> | Players breed monsters together to get new monsters. |
| 15:20 | < Tarinaky> | The children monster's attributes are inherited from their parents (this is given) plus some random mutation (this is the part I am asking about). |
| 15:22 | < Tarinaky> | Make sense? |
| 15:22 | <~Vornicus> | So far, yes |
| 15:22 | < Tarinaky> | That's it. |
| 15:22 | <~Vornicus> | What are typical values for the generated -- not bred -- monster attributes? |
| 15:23 | < Tarinaky> | Don't know. |
| 15:23 | < Tarinaky> | Positive. |
| 15:23 | < Tarinaky> | I am assuming positive and non-zero. |
| 15:23 | < Tarinaky> | Most of them are integer. |
| 15:23 | < Tarinaky> | Two of them are defined (0,1). |
| 15:24 | <~Vornicus> | Okay since you really want a finite thing within a range, you should probably instead use, oh, how do I put this |
| 15:25 | <~Vornicus> | Say your numbers range from 0 to 100. |
| 15:25 | < Tarinaky> | Okay. |
| 15:26 | <~Vornicus> | You average the two parents c = (m+f)/2, then use binomial variate with n=100 and p=c/100 |
| 15:27 | < Tarinaky> | Nah. You misunderstand. |
| 15:27 | <~Vornicus> | This gives you an amount of random variation. |
| 15:27 | < Tarinaky> | It's given that the 'base line'/before mutation is one parent or the other (not an average) |
| 15:27 | <~Vornicus> | Oh, I see what you mean. |
| 15:27 | < Tarinaky> | It's in the err. spec that part. |
| 15:28 | < Tarinaky> | It's the mutation that isn't given. |
| 15:28 | <~Vornicus> | One moment whilst I think |
| 15:28 | <~Vornicus> | But the amount of mutation, you want it to be based on the level of the other parent? |
| 15:28 | < Tarinaky> | Nah. |
| 15:28 | < Tarinaky> | I just want a noise function. |
| 15:28 | <~Vornicus> | Okay, I still recommend binomial |
| 15:29 | <~Vornicus> | This skews stuff towards the mean, in general |
| 15:30 | <~Vornicus> | And is guaranteed to not leave the valid range. |
| 15:30 | < Tarinaky> | I'm just struggling to remember anything at all about binomial distributions. |
| 15:30 | < Tarinaky> | Binomial Distributions are discrete right? Or is that Poisson Distributions? |
| 15:30 | <~Vornicus> | Binomial and poisson distributions are discrete. |
| 15:31 | <~Vornicus> | Binomial is bounded on both ends and poisson is bounded at the low end. |
| 15:33 | <~Vornicus> | Binomial distributions consider a finite number of trials with a particular probability; Poisson considers an infinite number of trials but only a finite number of successes. Poisson is the limit of binomial(n, mu/n) as n approaches infinity. |
| 15:33 | | SmithK [smith@Nightstar-ad56e792.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #code |
| 15:34 | < Tarinaky> | Right. |
| 15:34 | < Tarinaky> | How do I do this, in Java, sanely. |
| 15:34 | < Tarinaky> | I imagine calling nextBoolean 100 times is not sane. |
| 15:35 | <~Vornicus> | Actually if you're doing generation that's naptime. |
| 15:35 | <@TheWatcher> | "How do I do this, in Java, sanely." By not using Java~ |
| 15:35 | < Tarinaky> | TheWatcher: I'll be sure to inform my lecturer of that. |
| 15:35 | < Tarinaky> | Naptime? |
| 15:35 | <~Vornicus> | This isn't a thing that has to happen many times per frame, right? |
| 15:35 | <@TheWatcher> | Please do, the frothing at the mouth from die-hard Java professors is hilarious to watch |
| 15:36 | <~Vornicus> | then generating 100 booleans is no problem whatsoever. |
| 15:36 | < Tarinaky> | More like 500 booleans. |
| 15:36 | < Tarinaky> | And it's supposed to be a server. |
| 15:36 | < Tarinaky> | So this seems like the number 1 worst idea ever. |
| 15:36 | <~Vornicus> | Okay so you can also build a bitcounter thingy and generate ints instead |
| 15:37 | < Tarinaky> | Does Java have a sensible way to get the size of an int? |
| 15:37 | <~Vornicus> | "size"? |
| 15:37 | < Tarinaky> | How many bits. |
| 15:38 | <~Vornicus> | How many 1 bits? How many bits total (always 32)? the binary logarithm? |
| 15:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: on my laptop I'm getting about 6000 booleans/millisecond using a fairly inefficient approach. |
| 15:38 | < Tarinaky> | Vornicus: How many bits in the implementation of the integer type on that archetecture/JVM. |
| 15:39 | <~Vornicus> | Always 32 |
| 15:39 | < Tarinaky> | Didn't know that. |
| 15:39 | <~Vornicus> | This is Defined In The Java Spec |
| 15:40 | <~Vornicus> | (long is 64 bits but last I checked -- which was a while ago, Java used a 48-bit rng so you should avoid them) |
| 15:40 | <@TheWatcher> | Also, I should note at this point: make it work first, then make it work better, then make it work faster |
| 15:40 | <@TheWatcher> | if you're trying to code it to work as fast as possible right off, you're in for a world of pain |
| 15:40 | < Tarinaky> | Yes. I just wanted to be sure that calling nextBoolean() repeatedly wasn't utterly barmey. |
| 15:40 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah, speed is not in any sense a problem right now |
| 15:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: what sort of mutation are you doing, incidentally? One-gene? Every-gene with some probability? N genes picked at random (with or without replacement)? |
| 15:41 | <@TheWatcher> | /right now/ it isn't. Later, when you get it working, and can throw it at a profiler, it might be worth dealing with |
| 15:41 | < Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: I don't do bioinformatics so I don't know what that means. |
| 15:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm coming from genetic algorithms here, actually |
| 15:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | one-gene: pick a gene at random, mutate that |
| 15:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | every-gene: for each gene, make a random check, if it passes, mutate it |
| 15:42 | <~Vornicus> | How do you cover genes that act like ability scores, in every-gene? |
| 15:43 | < Tarinaky> | I'm mutating every attribute. |
| 15:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | N-genes: pick N genes at random, mutate all of them; if you pick the same gene multiple times you either reroll that pick (without replacement) or mutate it multiple times (with replacement) |
| 15:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: how do you mean? |
| 15:43 | < Tarinaky> | *every attribute once |
| 15:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | o.O |
| 15:43 | < Tarinaky> | I suspect I am using the wrong terminology |
| 15:44 | < Tarinaky> | I am not from a bio angle. |
| 15:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | I think we're using "mutate" in different ways here, then, because in GA that's usually equivalent to "I'm generating the entire genome randomly from scratch" |
| 15:44 | <~Vornicus> | TF: okay so the question here is: Alice has a strength score of 18 and Bob has a strength score of 12. How does the child generate its strength score? |
| 15:44 | < Tarinaky> | For each attribute, attribute := ( (random) ? parentA.attribute: parentB.attribute) + f(x) |
| 15:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | What's f? |
| 15:45 | <~Vornicus> | it's the mutation function |
| 15:45 | < Tarinaky> | Some PRNG. |
| 15:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah |
| 15:45 | < Tarinaky> | I dunno why I called it f(x) and not f() |
| 15:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, you're combining crossover (given two parent genomes, how do you determine the child genome) and mutation (how is the child genome randomly altered after crossover) into one operation here |
| 15:45 | < Tarinaky> | >.> |
| 15:45 | <~Vornicus> | That appears to be One Gene. How would Every Gene handle the strength score question |
| 15:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: mutation and crossover are distinct operations, so, mu |
| 15:46 | | * iospace burns this linker error |
| 15:46 | < Tarinaky> | What -is- Every Gene? |
| 15:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | In practice, crossover is usually some variant on "foreach gene, the child gets the entire gene from one parent or the other", so the child would have a strength (before mutation) of either 12 or 18. |
| 15:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Mutation would then (with some probability P) mutate that gene in a gene-specific manner - maybe it rerolls it entirely, maybe it adds [-2,+2] to it, maybe it queries a parallel simulation of background magical field levels or something |
| 15:48 | < Tarinaky> | Lol. |
| 15:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: when mutating the child genome, look at each gene, and mutate it with probability P. |
| 15:49 | < Tarinaky> | I thought you were being silly/whimsical with magical field levels till I realised it was appropriate to context. |
| 15:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | Eg, each gene has a 5% chance of being mutated |
| 15:49 | <~Vornicus> | As for... oh, cute one |
| 15:49 | < Tarinaky> | I assume the distinction here being that the attribute is derived from multiple genes? |
| 15:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | So maybe you get no mutations at all, just crossover, or maybe half of the genes get mutated, but on average 5% of the genome will be different from both parents due to mutation |
| 15:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | The key difference from one-gene is that one-gene always picks exactly one gene at random and mutates that |
| 15:50 | < Tarinaky> | Attribute is analogous to chromosome right? |
| 15:50 | < Tarinaky> | Oh. |
| 15:50 | <~Vornicus> | You can crossover in this way: 12 to 18 means you do binomial(6,0.5) to get the unmutated score and then you mutate |
| 15:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | To gene. Chromosomes generally don't have an equivalent in GA. |
| 15:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | If I were doing a GA for, say, D&D characters, there'd probably be a separate gene for each primary stat and then something really horrible for classes/feats/spells that I don't want to think about~ |
| 15:51 | < Tarinaky> | Classes Feats Spells aren't hereditory. |
| 15:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | Depends on the setting >.> |
| 15:52 | < Tarinaky> | You'd steal from Traveller for that. |
| 15:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, it doesn't have to be - maybe I'm running a GA to build the best character for a level 10 tournament or something |
| 15:52 | <~Vornicus> | classes feats spells are generally training-based, but you can certainly, uh |
| 15:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Not to simulate in-universe family trees |
| 15:52 | < Tarinaky> | Generate a Tech Level and use that to determine probability of enlistment in a given class... |
| 15:52 | < Tarinaky> | I'll shut up. |
| 15:52 | < Tarinaky> | Ah. Point. |
| 15:52 | <~Vornicus> | Choose class etc based on attributes |
| 15:52 | < Tarinaky> | I'll shut up twice. |
| 15:53 | | * TheWatcher eyes Net::SFTP, wonders WTF it's giving him 'Permission denied' errors for when connecting |
| 15:55 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-05d23b97.cable.rogers.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] |
| 15:55 | <@froztbyte> | agent / keyfile issues? |
| 15:56 | | SmithK [smith@Nightstar-ad56e792.home1.cgocable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 15:58 | <@TheWatcher> | manually sshing works fine, debug mode shows it not even trying publickey auth, so I must've missed something from this /incredibly/ well documented constructor call |
| 15:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: anyways. In GA parlance, the ( (random) ? parentA.attribute: parentB.attribute) is crossover, specifically uniform crossover. |
| 15:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | And the +f() is mutation. |
| 15:59 | < Tarinaky> | Right. |
| 16:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | (also, I fucked up the terminology earlier. The genome is the specification for the genetic format. The chromosome is an actual genetic sequence that you apply these operations to.) |
| 16:01 | < Tarinaky> | Right. |
| 16:02 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 16:08 | | * TheWatcher eyes this student |
| 16:09 | <@TheWatcher> | I think that he has somehow managed to experience /every possible problem/ you can have with subversion and the eclipse plugin for the same |
| 16:09 | < Syk> | apparently nvidia's new Linux drivers are 2x as fast |
| 16:09 | <&jerith> | TheWatcher: I don't think there are a finite number of problems with anything Eclipse-related. |
| 16:10 | <@TheWatcher> | ;.; |
| 16:11 | < Syk> | "NVIDIA today announced the latest NVIDIA(R) GeForce(R) drivers -- R310 -- double the performance(1) and dramatically reduce game loading times for those gaming on the Linux operating system." |
| 16:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | Syk: this is probably the start of the side effects from Valve's work on Linux, which we'll be seeing for a while, I think |
| 16:11 | < Syk> | yep |
| 16:12 | < Syk> | "The result of almost a year of development by NVIDIA, Valve and other game developers, the new GeForce R310 drivers are designed to give GeForce customers the best possible Linux-based PC gaming experience -- and showcase the enormous potential of the world's biggest open-source operating system." |
| 16:12 | < Syk> | NVidia pushing Linux |
| 16:12 | < Syk> | who'd have thought it |
| 16:12 | < Tarinaky> | Well. That totally broke up my flow. So I decided to have a go at something. Mind telling me if this is 'right'? |
| 16:13 | <@Tamber> | Syk: Presumably, Valve deciding to support Linux provided a bit of an incentive. :p |
| 16:13 | | * Syk gets the '2012 will be the year of the Linux Desktop' and changes 2 to a 3 |
| 16:13 | < Tarinaky> | http://pastebin.com/GdvqCgr2 |
| 16:13 | <@TheWatcher> | Syk: but it's also the year that linux desktop dies, too |
| 16:13 | < Syk> | i wonder if it will make XBMC usable with compositing |
| 16:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher: how so? |
| 16:14 | <@TheWatcher> | You know, like this year, and last year |
| 16:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 16:14 | < Syk> | heh |
| 16:14 | < Syk> | well it's past midnight |
| 16:14 | < Syk> | i'd best be off to sleep |
| 16:14 | | Syk is now known as syksleep |
| 16:14 | | * TheWatcher is more than a little tired of people predicting that stuff |
| 16:15 | < syksleep> | heh |
| 16:15 | < syksleep> | i hope that wherever i end up getting a job, I can just stop using Windows |
| 16:16 | < syksleep> | then I can just script everything |
| 16:17 | < syksleep> | just start up ~/bin/syka.sh and go home |
| 16:17 | <@Tamber> | A very *large* shell script. ...mostly because of the database of insults? |
| 16:18 | < syksleep> | tamber i wish that the TAB ran bets on you |
| 16:18 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 16:18 | < syksleep> | since you're almost as predictable as I am~ |
| 16:19 | < syksleep> | (syka.sh would be a wrapper for a perl script which interprets python that SSHs to a server somewhere and runs a PHP script which is then downloaded via http and displayed) |
| 16:38 | | SmithKurosaki [smith@Nightstar-8b580176.eng.wind.ca] has joined #code |
| 16:38 | < SmithKurosaki> | Quick question, what's the command to assume someone else's terminal in linux? |
| 16:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | "assume someone else's terminal"? |
| 16:41 | < SmithKurosaki> | Instead of going sudo bash to get root, you use sudo ... <username> |
| 16:41 | < SmithKurosaki> | So you can do stuff as them |
| 16:41 | <@Azash> | sudo su user? |
| 16:41 | < SmithKurosaki> | Thank you |
| 16:54 | | EvilDarkLord is now known as Maze |
| 16:55 | | ErikMesoy is now known as Harrower |
| 16:56 | | SmithK [smith@Nightstar-ad56e792.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #code |
| 17:05 | < Tarinaky> | Oh. And just after finish all that I notice there is a way to make nextGaussian do what I wanted -.- |
| 17:20 | | * Azash goes to store to stock up for INTENSE PAPERING |
| 17:29 | < iospace> | one thing that bugs me is when people say "oh, you should always use sort X". Yeah it can be fast, but how much memory does it use and how hard would it be to write? |
| 17:30 | <@Tamber> | "Pft, that's implementation details." |
| 17:30 | <@Tamber> | "?_?" |
| 17:31 | < iospace> | heh |
| 17:32 | < RichyB> | iospace: you should always use Bubble Sort. |
| 17:32 | < RichyB> | in version 1, anyway. |
| 17:33 | < RichyB> | Replace it with a call to qsort() when you want to pull a massive performance improvement from seemingly nowhere, to bolster your current career negotiations. ;) |
| 17:35 | < iospace> | RichyB: i am using a bubble, given the functions I have available to sort this LL, it's the most logical one atm |
| 17:36 | < RichyB> | :( |
| 17:36 | < gnolam> | ... |
| 17:38 | < RichyB> | iospace: dang! Do you not even have space for a single contiguous array of pointers, same length as the LL? |
| 17:38 | < RichyB> | That would let you move to heapsort, at least. |
| 17:38 | < iospace> | i'm not talking about space atm, but it is a consideration considering that the linked list could be absolutely massive |
| 17:39 | < iospace> | theoretically? |
| 17:39 | < iospace> | the linked list could have up to 65k elements |
| 17:40 | < RichyB> | That's nothing... on my desktop or laptop. What kind of RAM do you have lying around? |
| 17:40 | < RichyB> | Obviously I'd be sad if I had to deal with anything that big on a PIC. |
| 17:41 | < iospace> | RichyB: this is BIOS code |
| 17:42 | < iospace> | less memory = better |
| 17:43 | < RichyB> | BIOS code on what? Does that mean that you're operating inside 1MB with one of the old 20-bit-addresses x86 memory modes, or that you've got mere hundreds of bytes, or that you've got the run of an entire desktop machine but only temporarily |
| 17:43 | < iospace> | it'll always be on an x86-64 |
| 17:44 | < iospace> | yes, lots of memory blah blah |
| 17:44 | < RichyB> | Mmokay. |
| 17:50 | | SmithKurosaki [smith@Nightstar-8b580176.eng.wind.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 18:03 | | RichyB [richardb@Nightstar-3bcd1b60.bb.sky.com] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 18:03 | < iospace> | and loop seems to work now :P |
| 18:05 | | SmithK [smith@Nightstar-ad56e792.home1.cgocable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 18:06 | <@Azash> | Implementing mergesort in assembly sounds fun |
| 18:08 | < iospace> | this is C mind you |
| 18:08 | < iospace> | merge sort here would be a /mess/ |
| 18:09 | < iospace> | maybe i think |
| 18:11 | < iospace> | so my coworker made a function that more or less always returns true. which to me makes me wonder "why not make it a void then if the only return is true" (true in this case means the operation ran succesfully) |
| 18:11 | < iospace> | /there is no fail case/ -_- |
| 18:12 | <@Azash> | Extensibility \:D/ |
| 18:13 | < iospace> | yeeah no. Most of his code is hacky as fuck ._. |
| 18:14 | < iospace> | mine does 1/3rd less of the functionality his does (the basic premises are the same though), his takes up nearly three times the amount of lines ._. |
| 18:18 | < iospace> | mind you his code is commented, mine really isn't |
| 18:21 | <~Vornicus> | merge sort isn't terrible in C |
| 18:22 | | * Azash prefers mergesort |
| 18:23 | < iospace> | Vornicus: using linked lists or arrays? :P |
| 18:23 | <@Azash> | Oh, it was a linked list |
| 18:23 | <@Azash> | Nevermind then |
| 18:23 | < iospace> | yeah |
| 18:24 | <~Vornicus> | hm |
| 18:25 | < iospace> | it's needlessly complex in this case in my opinion |
| 18:32 | <~Vornicus> | actually it's not too bad in linked lists either I don't think |
| 18:33 | <@Azash> | The merging is easier as you don't need helper memory for it |
| 18:33 | <@Azash> | (Well, I guess you don't *need* it normally either, but..) |
| 18:34 | <@Azash> | I guess it's the seeking and figuring out how to recurse effectively |
| 18:35 | <~Vornicus> | no, in arrays you need memory up to the size of the smaller of two merge pieces to move it out of the way. |
| 18:36 | <@Azash> | You also need helper memory for rearranging pointers in the same way :P |
| 18:36 | <@Azash> | I was just talking about the easier method of merging two sub-arrays into a helper array and then copying that over |
| 18:37 | <~Vornicus> | no, I don't think you need it for pointer rearranging. |
| 18:38 | <@Azash> | Is there going to be XOR magic involved? |
| 18:38 | <~Vornicus> | No. |
| 18:38 | <~Vornicus> | I mean you'll need maybe log(n) side space to store heads of each list, but you're talking 20 instead of 500k worst case for a million records. |
| 18:39 | <@Azash> | Hm, I didn't think of that |
| 18:40 | <@Azash> | I was talking about the operation of switching a node's place in the list |
| 18:40 | <~Vornicus> | that's constant space requirements, doesn't really count. |
| 18:40 | <@Azash> | 20:35 <~Vornicus> no, in arrays you need memory up to the size of the smaller of two merge pieces to move it out of the way. |
| 18:40 | <@Azash> | 20:36 <@Azash> You also need helper memory for rearranging pointers in the same way :P |
| 18:41 | <@Azash> | I had interpreted "merge pieces" as the individual nodes, my bad |
| 18:59 | < iospace> | dammit, richy left |
| 18:59 | <~Vornicus> | And actually there's less memory move operations involved on a linked list. |
| 19:00 | | RichyB [richardb@Nightstar-3bcd1b60.bb.sky.com] has joined #code |
| 19:02 | < iospace> | RichyB: ok, worst case scienario for the memory used here? 16 megs. That's the absolute worst case though >_> |
| 19:16 | < RichyB> | ? |
| 19:28 | < iospace> | but considering this is a linked list and not an array... |
| 19:35 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 19:46 | | Harrower is now known as ErikMesoy |
| 19:48 | | Maze is now known as EvilDarkLord |
| 20:05 | | * TheWatcher stabs module authors who change things but don't update the sodding documentation to reflect it |
| 20:11 | < Moltare> | Things Runescape Has Today That It Lacked Yesterday: |
| 20:11 | < Moltare> | - Scrollbars that work horizontally as well as vertically. |
| 20:11 | < Moltare> | (This should not be two and a half hours' work) |
| 20:40 | < gnolam> | TheWatcher: Ah, lying documentation. |
| 20:40 | < gnolam> | The only documentation that's worse than no documentation. |
| 20:40 | <@TheWatcher> | Indeed |
| 20:46 | < Tarinaky> | For some reason I have an urge to revise Haskell so I can write a call me Maybe program. |
| 20:50 | <@froztbyte> | lololol |
| 20:50 | <@froztbyte> | those are two domains of thought I would not ever have expected to merge |
| 21:05 | < RichyB> | iospace: fwiw, singly-linked-list bubble-sort on my laptop (a nice i7) takes 3.5s for 32k elements, 15s for 64k elements. |
| 21:05 | < RichyB> | iospace: https://github.com/RichardBarrell/snippets/blob/master/bubble.c |
| 21:08 | < iospace> | heh |
| 21:08 | <@froztbyte> | your surname has one l too many |
| 21:08 | < RichyB> | froztbyte: arsewipe council employees agree with you, but I'm too lazy to correct them on the fact. |
| 21:10 | < iospace> | RichyB: i'm currently going through and removing other things that are redundant :3 |
| 21:11 | <@froztbyte> | RichyB: I can promise you that my intentions are pure and only of lulzy benefit to you |
| 21:11 | <@froztbyte> | (you could get special gain on the phrase "do a barrel roll") |
| 21:12 | < RichyB> | I assure you that I want to set on fire the eyebrows of everyone who makes a lame pun on my name. |
| 21:12 | < RichyB> | It has been many years since I last heard an original one. |
| 21:12 | <@froztbyte> | considered my eyebrows fiery |
| 21:13 | <@froztbyte> | could I join the legions of hell like this? |
| 21:13 | <@froztbyte> | or do I need to pass the soul corruption first? |
| 21:13 | < RichyB> | Yes, you could happily become a council employee with your face on fire. |
| 21:15 | < iospace> | RichyB: that is one odd for statement... |
| 21:16 | < RichyB> | The one with two different comma expressions in it? |
| 21:17 | < iospace> | yeah |
| 21:21 | < iospace> | so you run that for while here and here->next exist? |
| 21:21 | < iospace> | *for loop |
| 21:22 | < iospace> | if i'm reading that right anyway |
| 21:22 | < RichyB> | So, that for loop iterates over pairs (here, next) |
| 21:23 | < iospace> | and what does before exist for? |
| 21:23 | < RichyB> | before points to (the pointer that points to here) |
| 21:24 | < iospace> | that I got |
| 21:24 | < iospace> | but you don't seem to actually use it |
| 21:24 | < RichyB> | When starting out, before=&start, because here starts as start. |
| 21:24 | < RichyB> | Line 50. |
| 21:24 | < RichyB> | *before = next; // when swapping "here" and "next", whomever used to be pointing at "here" needs to be pointing at "next" instead. |
| 21:25 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-05d23b97.cable.rogers.com] has joined #code |
| 21:26 | < iospace> | yes, but all you do is change the pointer value of before |
| 21:26 | < RichyB> | No, I change *before. |
| 21:26 | < RichyB> | Not before. |
| 21:26 | < iospace> | let me rephrase, i do not see before, * or ** or otherwise on the right side of a = |
| 21:28 | <@froztbyte> | RichyB: :) |
| 21:28 | <@froztbyte> | RichyB: I apologise for whatever annoyance I may have caused |
| 21:28 | < RichyB> | froztbyte: eh. :) |
| 21:29 | < RichyB> | iospace: indeed you don't. before is only used to mutate a pointer when swapping LL nodes. |
| 21:30 | < iospace> | yeah, see, i have a swap(node1, node2) function :P |
| 21:30 | < RichyB> | Are you using a singly- or doubly-linked list? |
| 21:31 | < iospace> | double |
| 21:31 | < RichyB> | The need for "before" goes away with a doubly-linked list, you can just deref the "prev" pointer. You still need to explicitly rewrite the "start" pointer, but you know when to do that because prev==NULL. |
| 21:36 | < iospace> | actually it was useful in cleaning up my code a bit though :P |
| 21:36 | < iospace> | thanks ^^;; |
| 21:37 | < iospace> | (it's built, just gotta test it out :P) |
| 21:38 | < iospace> | also with a much more simplier while loop for an inner loop :P |
| 21:39 | < RichyB> | You're welcome. |
| 21:52 | < RichyB> | size_t is unsigned, right? |
| 21:52 | < celticminstrel> | Yes |
| 21:53 | < celticminstrel> | ptrdiff_t is the signed version |
| 21:53 | < iospace> | works |
| 21:57 | < RichyB> | I think I forgot how hard C actually is. |
| 21:59 | < iospace> | well, it works per se, there may be a small hiccup in efficency that i'm looking at (on my end) |
| 22:02 | < RichyB> | heh |
| 22:07 | < iospace> | yeah, it may check the pair it just swapped again |
| 22:12 | < RichyB> | ...please tell me that you're not worrying about a constant factor on a crap O(n?) algorithm. :( |
| 22:14 | | Derakon [chriswei@Nightstar-a3b183ae.ca.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 22:14 | | mode/#code [+ao Derakon Derakon] by ChanServ |
| 22:15 | <&Derakon> | I wish I knew why the old system did networking this way. |
| 22:15 | <&Derakon> | We have the cockpit computer, aye? And a bunch of other computers running other systems. |
| 22:15 | <&Derakon> | And the cockpit has to connect to the other systems to tell them to do things, and the other systems have to connect to the cockpit to tell it that they've done things. |
| 22:16 | <&Derakon> | So every single system has a hardcoded reference to where the cockpit computer is, and they continually try to connect to it (which will fail if the cockpit itself is not running). |
| 22:16 | <&Derakon> | Contrast my system: when the cockpit starts up, it connects to all the other systems, and then tells them how to connect to itself. |
| 22:17 | <&Derakon> | So they can all say "Is there a cockpit running? Okay, then that means I have a valid connection; send it some data." |
| 22:17 | <&Derakon> | Contrast the old method: |
| 22:17 | <&Derakon> | try: sendDataToCockpit(); except: connectToCockpit(); sendDataToCockpit() |
| 22:17 | <&Derakon> | That same stupid pattern repeated all over the place. |
| 22:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | |
| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | Clearly, that connect should hide inside sendDataToCockpit |
| 22:18 | <&Derakon> | Well, there's multiple variations of that function, depending on the data being sent. |
| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | Maybe it expects the connection to randomly drop all the time? |
| 22:19 | <&Derakon> | As far as I can tell our remote-object library is rock-solid and always has been. |
| 22:19 | <&Derakon> | And this is all being done on an internal network. |
| 22:19 | <@Tamber> | "Solid as a rock, and as dumb as a brick"? |
| 22:20 | <&Derakon> | I've never had cause to dive into it to see what it does, but at the very least it has to sensibly serialize and deserialize objects, so it can't be entirely dumb. |
| 22:20 | <&Derakon> | Remote objects in general strike me as something that'd be easy to screw up. |
| 22:20 | <&Derakon> | (That is, you create a connection to a remote server, and that connection presents itself as if it were an object that actually exists on that remote server) |
| 22:22 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 22:32 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 22:32 | < iospace> | yup, inefficient :< |
| 22:59 | < RichyB> | I have also implemented the world's buggiest heapsort! |
| 22:59 | | * RichyB isn't pushing this one to github yet. |
| 23:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Aw. |
| 23:01 | <&Derakon> | I initially read "biggest" and was wondering what makes one sort bigger than another. |
| 23:02 | <@TheWatcher> | Turn it into a national attraction: World's Largest Tarball of Sourcecode |
| 23:03 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 23:03 | <&Derakon> | (Get one of those old washing machine-sized disk drives and cover it in tar?) |
| 23:04 | <@TheWatcher> | I was wondering if you could put a rotating restaurant on top... |
| 23:20 | | * RichyB has got it down to 2nd-buggiest heapsort. |
| 23:20 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-ccbf4b44.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 23:20 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-ccbf4b44.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #code |
| 23:29 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| 23:36 | < RichyB> | iospace: please could you have another look at https://github.com/RichardBarrell/snippets/blob/master/bubble.c ? |
| 23:39 | < RichyB> | iospace: I implemented a simple heapsort there. |
| 23:39 | < RichyB> | With pseudorandom input data, goes way faster on my machine. |
| --- Log closed Wed Nov 07 00:00:05 2012 |