| --- Log opened Mon Oct 22 00:00:15 2012 |
| 00:02 | | syksleep is now known as Syk |
| 00:10 | < gnolam> | Man. Having an ammeter hooked up to a computer's power supply is pretty fascinating. |
| 00:20 | < gnolam> | Also: yay, the power regulator actually works. |
| 00:22 | < gnolam> | The bad news: it might not actually work /in practice/. |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 00:26 | < gnolam> | It might well be that the real battery won't have enough oomph to go above the dropout voltage. |
| 00:33 | < ToxicFrog> | Oh god |
| 00:33 | < ToxicFrog> | 5ms for a broadcast to every PU |
| 00:33 | < ToxicFrog> | This is horrible |
| 00:42 | <~Vornicus> | That's a little slower than I'd hope |
| 00:43 | < ToxicFrog> | Using lib1dc it's about 40us |
| 00:44 | < ToxicFrog> | There has got to be a faster way to avoid deadlocks |
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| 02:08 | | * ToxicFrog writes several paragraphs in Future Work about how to make performance less terrible. |
| 02:39 | < rms> | Anyone know why java.util.regex.Pattern is being retarded with the following pattern: ^(.*?)[`~!@#$%^&*_=|?/,. ]*$ |
| 02:40 | < rms> | (It throws when I try to get group 0 or 1 out of it, yet it groupCount() == 1 |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | I would without research have guessed that groupCount() == 1 means that only group 0 would be valid. |
| 02:42 | < rms> | https://gist.github.com/3929144 <-- trying to replace that |
| 02:42 | < rms> | " Any non-negative integer smaller than or equal to the value returned by this method is guaranteed to be a valid group index for this matcher. " |
| 02:42 | < rms> | (Doc text for groupCount()) |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | Interesting |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | ... um |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | Maybe I am dumb |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | But where is the second group |
| 02:43 | < rms> | Group 0 is full match |
| 02:43 | < rms> | Group 1 is first group |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | OK. What's the code that's throwing? |
| 02:44 | < rms> | java.lang.IllegalStateException: No match found |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | No, I mean, can you gist it for me |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | You've linked what you're replacing, so now I want to see what it's being replaced *with* |
| 02:45 | < rms> | I'm just doing testing with it... sec |
| 02:47 | < rms> | Same URL |
| 02:47 | < ToxicFrog> | And the input string is...? |
| 02:48 | < rms> | test asdf!!! (WTF)!!@! <-- three of them. |
| 02:48 | < rms> | They all throw on both try's |
| 02:48 | < rms> | But all have groupCount() == 1 |
| 02:49 | <&McMartin> | You haven't run a match yet. |
| 02:49 | < ToxicFrog> | Also, you need to call m.matches() or m.find() |
| 02:49 | < ToxicFrog> | Yes, that |
| 02:49 | <&McMartin> | Ensure m.matches() is true before trying to check the result |
| 02:49 | < rms> | That's retarded |
| 02:49 | < ToxicFrog> | 'throws IllegalStateException - If no match has yet been attempted, or if the previous match operation failed' |
| 02:50 | < ToxicFrog> | Dude |
| 02:50 | < ToxicFrog> | In what Java library is it not the case that you need half a tonne of boilerplate code and at least three distinct classes to accomplish even the simplest operations? |
| 02:50 | < rms> | No kidding |
| 02:50 | < ToxicFrog> | In Java terms, this is shockingly concise. |
| 02:51 | < ToxicFrog> | (what I am saying here is that you should be using clojure~) |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | yeah, I don't see anything here that every other OO language that lacks syntax-native tuple types would need to do. |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | In particular, constructors have to return the type constructed, and there are several alternatives to matches() that are why your actual pattern doesn't have ^/$ brackets. |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | ... actually |
| 02:52 | < rms> | <3 |
| 02:53 | | * McMartin hates on constructors more than is probably healthy |
| 02:53 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, actually, I'm going to blame this particular mess on Java having constructors. |
| 02:54 | < rms> | Except Pattern() doesn't have constructors... |
| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | Well, it's Matcher() that's the problem here. |
| 02:54 | < rms> | Well public ones anyways. |
| 02:55 | <&McMartin> | The only improvement I could make over this would be to have Pattern.matches() return a MatchResult instead of a boolean. |
| 02:55 | <&McMartin> | And one that has pre-run that test. |
| 02:55 | <&McMartin> | Also then port lookingAt() into Pattern |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | Arguing against this is that the code they have written encourages programmers not to write code that simply assumes all input will match and catches the exception thrown when it doesn't. |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | This isn't ML so exceptions aren't basically free |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | But *that* is less Java being retarded and more ML being awesome. |
| 02:57 | | * rms was actually liking Java upto that point :/ |
| 02:57 | | * rms is heavy into JS right now |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | You can certainly do much worse than Java for a lot of things. |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | JS has some actually good languages trapped within it screaming to get out, so well-disciplined JS is actually a joy. |
| 02:58 | < rms> | Yeah |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | Unfortunately, it has to deal with the most toxic ecosystem ever devised in the history of computing. |
| 02:59 | < rms> | I do node.js mostly |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | I hear that name a lot but know literally nothing about it. :D |
| 02:59 | < rms> | Then when I do use the browser, I use jQuery. |
| 03:00 | < rms> | Heh |
| 03:01 | < rms> | IMO the biggest hurdles with it are: async programming (and all the callbacks that requires) and closures (if you're like me and this is your introduction to their scoping rules) |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, JS scoping is screwy as Hell |
| 03:02 | < rms> | I learned to /always/ put the var on for (var i = 0; ...) |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | He's a bit of a crank (By which I mean, the things he rails against the most are actually perfectly acceptable, but happen to conflict with the actually bad parts of JS), but the (incredibly slim) volume "JavaScript: The Good Parts" is pretty fun. |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | But he's certifiable. |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | He has this nice utility function to directly expose the prototyping inheritance mechanism, for instance |
| 03:02 | | * rms isn't sure why you'd want that |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | But then he decides that the right place to put this function is INSIDE OBJECT'S PROTOTYPE instead of some library module |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | Because it's Java's Actual OO Mechanism, and it's desperately trying to fake Java-style classes, which is why JS OO kind of blows. |
| 03:03 | <&Derakon> | (Incidentally, closures are awesome <3) |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | JS has the same inheritance mechanism as Self and Game Maker, and it should stop being ashamed of it~ |
| 03:03 | <&Derakon> | (I just wish Python was less lazy abound binding them) |
| 03:04 | <&McMartin> | (I've always gotten the impression that closures were UnPythonic and that you were supposed to use objects that understood __call__) |
| 03:04 | <&McMartin> | (Which is or at least should be the same under the hood, but) |
| 03:04 | <&Derakon> | McM: well, I need closures a lot for setting up UIs. |
| 03:05 | <&Derakon> | Stuff like "for label, action in [("Start", self.start), ("Reset", self.reset)]: make button; button.bind(click event, lambda event, action = action: action())" |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 03:05 | <&Derakon> | The problem being you have to do the "action = action" bit. |
| 03:05 | <&Derakon> | Or else all of your buttons will do the last action in the loop (self.reset in this case). |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | My minor point here is merely that closures and objects are in some sense syntactic sugar for one another. |
| 03:05 | <&Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 03:06 | <&McMartin> | So if a language implements them as different things, something may have gone off the rails~ |
| 03:06 | < rms> | else if ((this.options(1) != 0) && (messaget.matches("admin")) && ((this.options(1) == 2) || ((this.options(1) == 1) && (auth)))) { |
| 03:06 | < rms> | ^ more crap that I'm dealing with (in case you thought that crap was localized) That's part of a ~20 item if/else chain of mostly the same checks. |
| 03:07 | < Syk> | why do HP BIOSs take so long |
| 03:08 | < Syk> | ARGH |
| 03:08 | < Syk> | hit the wrong key |
| 03:08 | < Syk> | now i have to wait again ;v; |
| 03:10 | < Syk> | how did they make getting into the RAID config /even harder/ than G7 |
| 03:11 | < Syk> | and then it boots some sort of embedded linux? |
| 03:12 | < rms> | Know what cheers me up? Reading source.txt |
| 03:13 | < Syk> | hmm? |
| 03:13 | < rms> | http://www.telusplanet.net/public/stonedan/source.txt <-- VB 5 (no, it won't work on VB 6) enjoy. |
| 03:13 | < rms> | If you decide (and manage) to run it, it'll crash on the first run as it makes the helpfile. Just rerun it. |
| 03:14 | < Syk> | ...what does it even /do/ |
| 03:14 | < rms> | It's a "desktop" "search" program |
| 03:15 | < Syk> | man |
| 03:15 | < Syk> | this is Syka-levels of code |
| 03:15 | < rms> | The guy who made it is certifiably insane. |
| 03:15 | | * Syk uses that unironically - her code is like this, but sans comments |
| 03:16 | <&Derakon> | Agh, the dated comments. |
| 03:16 | <&Derakon> | This is what source control is for, you fool. |
| 03:16 | < rms> | It's called Spectate Swamp Desktop Search if you want to find the (huge) TDWTF threads where he talks about it and they get dragged down to his level. |
| 03:16 | | * Tamber peers in, spots "Spectate Swamp", splits a seam laughing. |
| 03:17 | <@Tamber> | That guy's a gas. |
| 03:17 | < Syk> | okay what the fuck |
| 03:17 | < Syk> | why is the array config utility in Gen8 servers /a fucking gui/ |
| 03:17 | < Syk> | it's running fucking X |
| 03:17 | < rms> | BECAUSE REAL ADMINS USE A GUI |
| 03:18 | < Syk> | i'm not even a real admin D: |
| 03:18 | < rms> | BECAUSE GUIS LET YOU PIPE COMMANDS AND REPEAT THEM SIMPLY |
| 03:18 | <&McMartin> | So that people who get here by accident do not enter random commands tryin gto quit. |
| 03:18 | < Syk> | according to my pay grade, i should be outside replanting sprinklers |
| 03:19 | < rms> | I wish I was working in IT :/ |
| 03:19 | < Syk> | ...oh the vendors set up the RAID5 for me already |
| 03:19 | < rms> | My job is sort of fun at times though. |
| 03:19 | < Syk> | neat! |
| 03:19 | < Syk> | the guys we buy HP stuff from |
| 03:19 | < Syk> | are complete bosses |
| 03:19 | < rms> | Is that a good thing or bad thing? |
| 03:20 | < Syk> | boss in the street style, uh, yo |
| 03:20 | < Syk> | and stuff |
| 03:20 | < rms> | Again, I'll repeat... |
| 03:20 | < rms> | Is that a good thing or bad thing? |
| 03:20 | < Syk> | good thing :P |
| 03:20 | | * Tamber adds pointy-hair to it. |
| 03:20 | < Syk> | except |
| 03:20 | < Syk> | one time we ordered some Ciscos to be air freighted |
| 03:20 | < Syk> | and they took four weeks to get here |
| 03:21 | < Syk> | >Controller temperature: 90C |
| 03:21 | < Syk> | what the fuck |
| 03:22 | < rms> | I'm not saying your moma is fat, but did the plane take so long because she tried to get a lift in it? |
| 03:22 | < Syk> | haha |
| 03:22 | < Syk> | nah... they just made the mistake of trusting Australia Post with anything |
| 03:23 | < Syk> | Australia Post summed up in one picture: http://reddrgn.net/purerage.jpg |
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| 07:45 | < froztbyte> | <Syk> why is the array config utility in Gen8 servers /a fucking gui/ |
| 07:45 | < froztbyte> | as in Smartstart? |
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| 08:17 | < Syk> | froztbyte: uhh, not sure what it's called |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | the Array Configuation Utility |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | IIRC |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | the P420 RAID settings |
| 08:18 | < froztbyte> | is it a big iso you boot? |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | nah, embedded |
| 08:18 | < froztbyte> | hmmmmm |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | I don't use any of the fancy HP stuff |
| 08:18 | < froztbyte> | interesting |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | I use the Proliant Support Pack to get the drivers |
| 08:18 | < froztbyte> | I didn't know they'd be taking that on-board in gen8 |
| 08:18 | < Syk> | and then that's it |
| 08:19 | < froztbyte> | yeah, that Support Pack thing is smartstart |
| 08:19 | < Syk> | man i can feel the net speed slowing as people looking at the weather radars |
| 08:20 | | * Vornicus finds himself wondering what it would look like if he did voronoi regions a la "depixel" for a 3d thing |
| 09:06 | < froztbyte> | there's a voronoi implementation for shatter in blender |
| 09:07 | < froztbyte> | may or may not be useful |
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| 11:46 | < Tarinaky> | Does Java have some equivalent to 'friend' functions? For example, if I want to enforce that only one particular class can (correctly) call a particular method? |
| 11:46 | < Tarinaky> | Or is this bad OO? |
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| 12:06 | <&jerith> | Tarinaky: Either "default" or "protected" will let other things in the same package access a member of a class. I forget which. |
| 12:07 | <&jerith> | I abhor all the privacy restrictions on these things, though. |
| 12:07 | <&jerith> | (I've been bitten *way* too many times by people who make stuff "private" and "final" and then I have to rewrite half their library.) |
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| 12:28 | < Tarinaky> | jerith: I have discovered a better way of doing it (using Observer-Observable). |
| 12:29 | < Tarinaky> | Which enforces the behavior that needs to be enforced, without any OO-fairies dying each time it's run. |
| 12:37 | < Nemu> | Be a champ! I have to define what public even means. Earlier today I declared a variable that's write-only from outside the object, and can only be read on Tuesdays, otherwise. |
| 12:38 | < froztbyte> | ....I'm somewhat interesting in knowing what lead to that requirement |
| 12:39 | < Nemu> | No requirement at all. I was kind of frustrated at my supervisor, so I took some down-time to relax |
| 12:40 | < froztbyte> | ah, that requirement |
| 12:40 | < froztbyte> | ("I'm insane enough to still be in academia and think there's some value, I don't know why. Someone help meeeeeeee!") |
| 12:41 | < froztbyte> | most days I think the only value in academia is to level up in patience and tolerance |
| 12:41 | < Nemu> | Acadamia is great if your prime interest isn't in learning. |
| 12:42 | < Nemu> | Want to go to Germany? Take your masters at a german university |
| 12:42 | < froztbyte> | want to go to germany? go to germany. |
| 12:42 | < froztbyte> | see, mine is much easier |
| 12:42 | < Nemu> | Sure, but how long can you stay? |
| 12:42 | < froztbyte> | that's a loaded question |
| 12:43 | < froztbyte> | and/or implementation detail |
| 12:43 | < Nemu> | In my case, I want to go to Japan. What company would actually be willing to hire a foreign worker fresh from his undergraduate program? |
| 12:44 | < Nemu> | So, I'm considering attending Osaka University. Acadamia, but not for the sake of education |
| 12:44 | < froztbyte> | well, for anything ever out of undergraduate program -> retraining time needed |
| 12:44 | < Nemu> | Exactly. That's one of the reasons I think getting a job would be impossible |
| 12:44 | < Nemu> | Who would be willing to invest that heavily in a random variable? |
| 12:44 | < froztbyte> | anything ever. |
| 12:45 | < Nemu> | ? |
| 12:45 | < froztbyte> | not even just in another country |
| 12:45 | < froztbyte> | in your own as well |
| 12:45 | < froztbyte> | for foreign entities it's just even more dead weight |
| 12:45 | < Nemu> | Yeah |
| 12:45 | < froztbyte> | that's the problem with academia |
| 12:45 | < froztbyte> | they /create/ the problem |
| 12:45 | < froztbyte> | (for the upcoming workforce, I mean) |
| 12:45 | < froztbyte> | in some markets it's less significant |
| 12:46 | < froztbyte> | law, econ, the like |
| 12:46 | < froztbyte> | but in computer stuff it's basically "graduate gets job. graduate spends first few months completely relearning everything they've been taught wrong." |
| 12:47 | < froztbyte> | yet for some reason everyone still kept on supporting the institution in its form |
| 12:47 | < Nemu> | Pretty much, excepting the ones who spent as much time programming for fun as they did for mars |
| 12:47 | < Nemu> | *marks |
| 12:47 | < froztbyte> | thankfully that's changing a bit now |
| 12:47 | < Nemu> | Yeah |
| 12:48 | < Nemu> | I find that the colleges where I'm from tend to be better than the universities. Makes me laugh that you can spend two years getting a diploma, and be more useful than a four-year bachelor |
| 12:49 | < froztbyte> | in my first year at uni, I forgot my laptop at home the one day |
| 12:49 | < froztbyte> | went into one of the labs to quickly shit out the required C++ code for the prac due that day |
| 12:50 | < froztbyte> | some kids were sitting opposite me and mumbling about some or other space issue they were having with their data |
| 12:50 | < froztbyte> | I go "...why not just hack in a call to gzip and compress/decompress that stuff on the fly?" |
| 12:51 | < froztbyte> | they look at me, go "wow, that'd actually work. what are you, honours or something?" |
| 12:51 | < Nemu> | Heh |
| 12:51 | < froztbyte> | turns out these kids are third-year and don't a damned thing. |
| 12:52 | < rms> | Tarinaky: Private is the strictest limiter and package members can still read from it. |
| 12:53 | <&jerith> | rms: Really? |
| 12:53 | <&jerith> | I know subclasses can't. |
| 12:53 | <&jerith> | But maybe that's because they're in a different package. |
| 12:53 | < Nemu> | The schools just need to be harder. I came out of a program with a 75% drop-out rate. By the end, there was fourteen of us left. There were no retards left |
| 12:53 | | * Nemu vanishes, though |
| 12:53 | < Nemu> | Gotta get gettin |
| 12:54 | <&jerith> | I tutored a programming-for-engineers course. |
| 12:54 | < froztbyte> | Nemu: I don't think that's a good response to the problem either |
| 12:54 | < Nemu> | How'd that go, jerith? |
| 12:54 | <&jerith> | I failed 90% of the students, because they couldn't perform the tasks required. |
| 12:54 | < froztbyte> | I taught an art friend of mine basic VCS/SCM, and ActionScript |
| 12:54 | <&jerith> | Then there was politics and they passed anyway. |
| 12:54 | < Nemu> | If they were university engineers, I would believe that |
| 12:54 | < froztbyte> | she'd never dealt with it before in her life |
| 12:54 | < Nemu> | The failure, at least |
| 12:54 | <&jerith> | Apparently it's bad form for everyone to fail. |
| 12:55 | < froztbyte> | but she was entirely bright enough to deal with it when the concepts could be translated for her in a way that helped her get it quickly |
| 12:56 | < Nemu> | froztbyte, there's no reason someone can't learn to program. It's just that these people are either unable to grasp it in the way it's being taught (their fault or the universities), or they don't want to learn. |
| 12:57 | < froztbyte> | yup |
| 12:57 | < Nemu> | And, for jerith, from my experience, at least, most of the engineers I know are the latter |
| 12:57 | < froztbyte> | but my point is that if she had to deal with a course that was intentionally just made harder than it should be, she wouldn't even have made a month |
| 12:58 | < Nemu> | Ah, I see what you're saying |
| 12:58 | <&jerith> | Nemu: I studied engineering because I was already writing better code than most of the CS graduates I knew. |
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| 12:59 | <&jerith> | Engineering is about building stuff, which is what programmers do. |
| 13:01 | < Nemu> | froztbyte, I'd say that making a program harder, and making a program more complex are two different things though, and they're almost antagonistic. We did some really complex shit, when I was at the college, and we were able to do it because we had teachers who were really good at teaching. So, the course was very intensive, but not hard for the sake of hard. |
| 13:01 | <&jerith> | This is why Java should *not* be a first language. |
| 13:01 | <&jerith> | You need a huge amount of stuff before you can write a single line of code. |
| 13:02 | < Tarinaky> | Nemu: I take it you're German then? |
| 13:03 | < Nemu> | Eh? No, not at all. Is this because of the remarks about the college? |
| 13:03 | < Tarinaky> | jerith: There are very few languages that don't require a huge amount of stuff before you can write a single line of code, and those that do allow this no longer resemble the orthodoxy of 'enterprise'. |
| 13:04 | < Tarinaky> | Not to say these are bad languages, but it's a bad idea to teach what isn't used in a vocational course. |
| 13:04 | <&jerith> | Tarinaky: I can think of half a dozen offhand that are better suited to teaching. |
| 13:04 | < Tarinaky> | jerith: But are these languages employable skills? |
| 13:05 | < Nemu> | Matlab for OOP. Seriously. I've thought more and harder about OOP concepts trying to apply them here than I ever did when I was learning C++ |
| 13:05 | <&jerith> | Do people *really* need to grok "public static void main(String[] args) {}" before they can write any code? |
| 13:06 | <&jerith> | Nemu: Matlab is a crappy language unless you're doing numeric stuff. |
| 13:07 | < Tarinaky> | Most the languages I know have something similar to public static void main (String[] args). |
| 13:07 | <&jerith> | Tarinaky: I know lots of people employed in Python and Ruby. |
| 13:07 | < froztbyte> | Tarinaky: seems you need to get to know some other languages then :) |
| 13:07 | < Tarinaky> | C has int main (int argc, char** argv), except on Tuesdays when it returns void. |
| 13:07 | <&jerith> | If you only know one language, I don't want to hire you. End of story. |
| 13:07 | <&jerith> | C isn't a great first language either. |
| 13:08 | < Tarinaky> | The only two languages I've got under my belt that don't are Python and Haskell... I think... I've purged most of Haskell from my memory. |
| 13:08 | <&jerith> | Every programming course should teach at least two languages. |
| 13:08 | <&jerith> | Java can be the second one. |
| 13:09 | < RichyB> | jerith: I accuse that C isn't a significantly worse first language than assembly, provided that you show the novices how to use GOTO. |
| 13:09 | < Nemu> | .... Meaning assembly without GOTO is better than C? |
| 13:10 | < Nemu> | I'm not sure where I stand on that |
| 13:10 | < RichyB> | No, meaning that I'm still sceptical about the value of structured-programming. |
| 13:10 | < Tarinaky> | "How to use goto in C" "Don't... unless you should, then do." |
| 13:10 | < Nemu> | ... I didn't even realize it had a GOTO |
| 13:10 | <&jerith> | So, one of the pypy devs I know is always complaining about rpython (which is a subset of Python that can be compiled statically with type inference and such). |
| 13:11 | < RichyB> | As in, if you want to teach someone to program a von Neumann machine, C is not a bad choice for this but make sure that you do not gloss over the existence of goto. |
| 13:11 | <&jerith> | He wants to bounce between Python code (which is dynamic) and asm (which is the *ultimate* dynamic language), but has to go through this static layer in the middle. |
| 13:12 | < Tarinaky> | On that note... |
| 13:12 | < Tarinaky> | What are your options wrt 'statically typed' python? |
| 13:13 | <&jerith> | I think it solves a problem that isn't really a problem. |
| 13:13 | < iospace> | C has a goto |
| 13:13 | < iospace> | i've used it before T_T |
| 13:13 | < Tarinaky> | jerith: Maybe. I said options, not opinions. |
| 13:13 | <&jerith> | Assuming you mean "Python, but with type annotations" or something. |
| 13:13 | < Tarinaky> | Yeah. Mostly. |
| 13:13 | <&jerith> | Oh, options. I misread. |
| 13:13 | <&jerith> | There aren't really any. |
| 13:14 | | * iospace places Syk on jerith's head |
| 13:14 | <&jerith> | You can use Cython, which is a Python-like laguage that gets compiled to C. |
| 13:14 | < Syk> | owo |
| 13:14 | <&jerith> | You can use rpython if you're in pypy, but that isn't useful unless you're building a language runtime. |
| 13:14 | < Syk> | there was that MS thing that was statically typed javascript |
| 13:14 | < iospace> | back when we did assembly in CAOS we would compile our code to C actually when we used assembly |
| 13:14 | | * jerith carefully balances his new hat. |
| 13:15 | < Syk> | except it wasn't actually statically typed |
| 13:15 | < Syk> | it was just in the editor |
| 13:15 | < Syk> | and the compiler |
| 13:15 | < Syk> | which seems a little half-assed to me |
| 13:15 | < rms> | <Syk> there was that MS thing that was statically typed javascript <-- TypeScript |
| 13:15 | | * Tarinaky makes a note to try Cython some time. |
| 13:15 | < Syk> | yeah that's it |
| 13:15 | < Syk> | i was thinking typescript |
| 13:15 | < Syk> | but didnt think the name would be that stupid |
| 13:15 | <&jerith> | Tarinaky: Don't. There's really no point to it unless you're trying to write CPython extension modules. |
| 13:15 | < Tarinaky> | Oh. |
| 13:15 | < Tarinaky> | Okay. |
| 13:15 | < Tarinaky> | :( |
| 13:16 | < Syk> | jerith: not even a speed increase? |
| 13:16 | < Syk> | or is python fast these days |
| 13:17 | <&jerith> | Seriously, though, C-style static typing makes things harder rather than easier. |
| 13:17 | <&jerith> | Syk: If you want speed, go with pypy. |
| 13:17 | < iospace> | i never got statics Dx |
| 13:18 | < Syk> | what's pypy again? |
| 13:18 | < Syk> | that's a python thing in python? |
| 13:18 | < rms> | Python executing Python |
| 13:18 | <&jerith> | Syk: Python written in Python. |
| 13:18 | < Syk> | ...and that's faster? |
| 13:18 | < rms> | It compiles itself into a binary first IIRC |
| 13:19 | < Syk> | I should probably check out python one of these days |
| 13:19 | < Syk> | and stop being a .NET pleb |
| 13:19 | <&jerith> | They built a JIT generator that analyses your runtime's code and builds an appropriate JIT. |
| 13:19 | < Syk> | since I resigned from the job which is the whole reason for me to use .NET |
| 13:19 | <&jerith> | You can run pypy untranslated (which is useful for testing and such), but it's *horribly* slow. |
| 13:20 | < iospace> | Syk: use Vim :P |
| 13:20 | < iospace> | ^_^ |
| 13:20 | < Syk> | i use nano |
| 13:20 | < Syk> | c: |
| 13:20 | <@Tamber> | alias nano="ed" |
| 13:20 | | * iospace glares at Syk |
| 13:21 | < iospace> | alias ed="vim" |
| 13:21 | < iospace> | :P |
| 13:21 | <@Tamber> | alias vim="logout" |
| 13:21 | <@Tamber> | :D |
| 13:21 | < iospace> | alias emacs="haltandcatchfire" |
| 13:21 | < Syk> | alias kill="for ( ; ; ) do; yes &; done" |
| 13:22 | <@Tamber> | iospace, pfft; it's had that feature for /years/, and all the others are only just catching up! |
| 13:22 | < iospace> | ok sony |
| 13:22 | < Syk> | but yeah |
| 13:22 | < Syk> | I use nano or gedit |
| 13:23 | < Syk> | because vim/emacs are both too complex for my simple little head |
| 13:23 | < Syk> | and because gedit werks |
| 13:23 | <&jerith> | Syk: Look at SublimeText2. |
| 13:24 | < iospace> | i just remember doing a test friday |
| 13:24 | < Syk> | ...isn't that for the Mac? |
| 13:24 | < iospace> | used to vim... but we have to use visual studio |
| 13:26 | <&jerith> | Syk: Cross-platform. |
| 13:27 | < Syk> | ...owo |
| 13:27 | < Syk> | hm |
| 13:30 | | * Tamber throws hands up, scattering bits of Forth everywhere, and trundles off to sleep. Steps on a ! on the way out. |
| 13:30 | < Syk> | no harm in trying it... |
| 13:31 | < Syk> | guh nautilus wtf u doin |
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| 13:31 | <@Tamber> | Nautilus. stahp! *actually goes away now* |
| 13:31 | < iospace> | heh |
| 13:44 | < Syk> | jerith: oh shit does this automatically indent things |
| 13:45 | < Syk> | wait no, i manually fixed that up earlier |
| 13:45 | < Syk> | huh, well, it's pretty good anyway |
| 13:50 | < froztbyte> | why is automatic indentation something that worries you? |
| 13:50 | < Syk> | it's something I want |
| 13:50 | < froztbyte> | ah |
| 13:51 | < Syk> | because I am lazy as all hell with indenting |
| 13:51 | < froztbyte> | anyway, yes, it does :) |
| 13:51 | < froztbyte> | it's got fairly sane detection methods for most stuff, too |
| 13:54 | < Syk> | yay |
| 13:55 | < Syk> | man |
| 13:55 | < Syk> | how big should resumes be again? :/ |
| 13:55 | < iospace> | at least one page |
| 13:55 | < iospace> | but no more than 1 |
| 13:55 | < iospace> | ideally 1 whole page of text |
| 13:55 | < rms> | 1-2 pages is normal. |
| 13:55 | < Syk> | wat |
| 13:55 | < rms> | IT ones can be as many as needed |
| 13:55 | < Syk> | i have lie |
| 13:55 | < Syk> | like |
| 13:56 | < iospace> | rms: not in the US.. we're told 1 page is ideal ._. |
| 13:56 | < Syk> | my original position at the company when I was 15 is like a page already with all the projects I did >v< |
| 13:56 | < Syk> | well I'm not in the USA :P |
| 13:56 | < rms> | iospace: No, it's very much a personal preference thing |
| 13:56 | < Syk> | I would like to cut some out, but they're sort of important |
| 13:56 | < Syk> | like the desktop imaging system |
| 13:56 | < iospace> | heh |
| 13:56 | < Syk> | which reduced deployment times like 8 thousand percent |
| 13:57 | < rms> | 1-2 pages, keeping in mind people will stop reading when they want to, so front-load the fuck out of it. |
| 13:57 | < Syk> | maybe it's important to just me |
| 13:57 | < froztbyte> | I understand that in the US there's a difference between resume and CV |
| 13:57 | < rms> | No, stuff like that is good. |
| 13:58 | < rms> | Great actually. |
| 13:58 | < froztbyte> | (fuck some apps on OSX for not having the hold-key input style) |
| 13:58 | < Syk> | cos there's the imaging system, the custom-written helpdesk DB, the in/out directory, the FIDS system, the metric shittonne of monitoring and tools I wrote... |
| 13:59 | < Syk> | I'm not sure if I'm a sysadmin or a developer, to be honest. |
| 13:59 | < Syk> | because I'm certified to do desktop support... yet then again, I wrote a fucking FIDS system in a fortnight that blows the competition out of the water |
| 14:00 | < froztbyte> | word that another way |
| 14:00 | < Syk> | mainly because my solution had a total cost of $1600 a board + $10,000 server which we bought anyway |
| 14:00 | < Tarinaky> | FIDS? |
| 14:00 | < Syk> | the cheapest solution was $65,000 + installation for eight boards |
| 14:00 | < Syk> | Tarinaky: Flight Information Display System |
| 14:00 | < Syk> | aka the thing that says what flights are doing |
| 14:02 | < froztbyte> | "Highly skilled at implementing tools related to company's interaction with the market." / "Equipped company with bespoke software for dealing with X, Y, and Z; short project turnaround times, thus keeping overall costs well within manageable parameters and removing need to acquire further external software." |
| 14:03 | < Syk> | to be completely hones |
| 14:03 | < Syk> | t |
| 14:03 | < Syk> | I've never written a proper resume before |
| 14:03 | < iospace> | :P |
| 14:03 | < Syk> | I got my job via school-based work placement and have been there ever since, so :x |
| 14:03 | < Syk> | well |
| 14:04 | < Syk> | technically |
| 14:04 | < Syk> | I got the work experience thing |
| 14:04 | < Syk> | then was offered a job a month before, so "we can get the boring stuff out of the way and put the good stuff on your work experience report" |
| 14:06 | < Syk> | I find it funny though |
| 14:06 | < Syk> | my mother was like 'don't go into IT, you'll end up like $supervisor_name' |
| 14:06 | < Syk> | four years later, he's married and owns his own house and farm in the south west :| |
| 14:08 | < Syk> | but y'know |
| 14:08 | < Syk> | my mother thinks that Vista was a fine operating system, what does she know |
| 14:09 | < iospace> | i never had problems with it |
| 14:09 | < Syk> | iospace: did you ever try using ATI graphics with it |
| 14:09 | < Syk> | ....also, question |
| 14:10 | < Syk> | when referring to like, Finance and Engineering and such |
| 14:10 | < iospace> | nope, never had to use ATI/AMD graphics ever |
| 14:10 | < Syk> | the correct word is 'department', isn't it? |
| 14:10 | < iospace> | likely |
| 14:10 | | * Syk sees the word 'business unit' float around, but thinks that only applies to the front facing money making parts? |
| 14:11 | < Syk> | oh hey according to the internet it means more or less the same thing |
| 14:11 | < froztbyte> | no |
| 14:11 | < Syk> | no? |
| 14:12 | < froztbyte> | in my mind that's basically any significant boxable division of the business |
| 14:12 | < froztbyte> | I guess it depends on the context it's used in |
| 14:12 | < Syk> | yeah |
| 14:12 | < Syk> | fuckin corpspeak |
| 14:12 | < froztbyte> | hehe |
| 14:13 | < Syk> | fuck it |
| 14:13 | | * Syk uses "departments & business units" |
| 14:15 | < Tarinaky> | Okay. I have some questions about Java sockets. |
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| 14:22 | < Syk> | jerith: SL2 seems pretty good. |
| 14:22 | <&jerith> | *ST2 |
| 14:22 | | * Syk might play with it a bit more before dropping for a license |
| 14:23 | <&jerith> | Some people whose opinions I respect really like it. |
| 14:23 | < Syk> | oh yeah, ST2 |
| 14:23 | < Syk> | the L and T are right next to each other, i swear >v> |
| 14:23 | <&jerith> | I need to find the time to play with it properly. |
| 14:25 | < Syk> | hm, 3.75 hrs charge with my new laptop |
| 14:25 | | * Syk coloured reasonably impressed |
| 14:50 | <~Vornicus> | voronoi shatter, if I remember it, uses a quasirandom distribution of points and generates their voronoi regions. |
| 14:51 | <~Vornicus> | and then uses those voronoi regions to generate pieces. |
| 14:53 | <~Vornicus> | which is not what i want. |
| 15:05 | < Tarinaky> | "I can count to new Potato().setSpecies("Sweet").setCookingMethod("Boiled").cook();" |
| 15:14 | < rms> | Is that a reference to that mentally challenged girl? |
| 15:16 | < RichyB> | Syk: heheh, x509 calls those OUs. :) |
| 15:17 | < RichyB> | Departments, I mean. |
| 15:17 | < rms> | OUs don't have the same borders |
| 15:20 | < Syk> | RichyB: not the way they're set up in my org... |
| 15:20 | < Syk> | :P |
| 15:21 | < Syk> | RichyB: also dont you mean x500? |
| 15:21 | < Syk> | or is x509 something else owO |
| 15:22 | < RichyB> | x509's the certificate format specifically. |
| 15:22 | < RichyB> | Inherits its terminology from the rest of the xwhatever series. |
| 15:23 | < Syk> | ah |
| 15:23 | < RichyB> | They don't really define what "organisational unit" means, I thought? They pretty much leave it up to the individual organisation to decide where to cut its own OU boundaries. |
| 15:24 | < Syk> | yeah |
| 15:24 | < Syk> | which is the problem |
| 15:24 | < Syk> | when my supe and I first joined, everyone was in AD's default Users OU |
| 15:25 | < Syk> | there was also this login thing to deploy some software we used |
| 15:25 | < Syk> | the best bit was how sometimes it'd take two weeks to roll out to every PC |
| 15:26 | < Syk> | and the install took 45 minutes for no legitimate reason :D |
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| 19:43 | < Tarinaky> | I need a JSON package for Java. |
| 19:44 | < Tarinaky> | Trying to roll one in Java is a complete ball-ache. |
| 19:45 | < Tarinaky> | At the risk of invoking an old joke, all I've gotten for my trouble so far is a ProblemFactory. |
| 19:45 | < jeroid> | There were two or three last time I looked and they were all horrendous in different ways. |
| 19:46 | < Tarinaky> | Can I at least have some clues on how to do do string manip in Java without spooning my eyes out? |
| 19:47 | < jeroid> | I ended up using the worst, because I could at least hack around the badness with reimplementing all the private and final crap. |
| 19:47 | < ErikMesoy> | Tarinaky: look up other people's examples |
| 19:47 | < ErikMesoy> | This was how I did most of my Java. |
| 19:47 | < jeroid> | You don't want to do your own serialization. |
| 19:47 | < ErikMesoy> | (And judicious use of the manual.) |
| 19:48 | < Tarinaky> | jeroid: I don't much fancy other people's serialisation either. |
| 19:48 | < Tarinaky> | >.> |
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| 19:56 | < jeroid> | Tarinaky: There's probably one that Sucks Less available these days, although it might be part of a web framework. |
| 19:58 | < jeroid> | If you remind me in a couple of hours I'll see if I can dig up that old code and find out what I used. |
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| 20:18 | < Tarinaky> | Well... |
| 20:18 | < Tarinaky> | Now I just need to figure out why this damn thing is encapsulating everything in arrays :/ |
| 20:18 | < Tarinaky> | Also: fuck my fucking internet connection with a rusty pole. |
| 20:21 | < gnolam> | Try oxidizing AnnoDomini. |
| 20:22 | < Tarinaky> | and by the time my explitive tirade sends I've alreeady fixed the issue. |
| 20:22 | < Tarinaky> | I guess the carrier pigeons need more ampheatamines. |
| 20:22 | < Tarinaky> | *amphetamines |
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| 23:21 | | * iospace grumbles about pointers |
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| --- Log closed Tue Oct 23 00:00:30 2012 |