| --- Log opened Thu Apr 26 00:00:10 2012 |
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| 01:26 | | * gnolam eyes his spam folder. |
| 01:26 | < gnolam> | Myspace phishing? Seriously? |
| 01:27 | < gnolam> | If you're going to phish, at least phish for something relevant. :P |
| 01:34 | | * McMartin writes up some quick OCaml code to compute EVs for various configurations in Mobile Frame Zero |
| 01:35 | <&McMartin> | (Roll N dice of varying sizes, take the max) |
| 01:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | :stonk: http://lists.grok.org.uk/pipermail/full-disclosure/2012-April/086652.html |
| 01:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Short form: RuggedCom, manufacturer of "hardened" networking devices commonly used in infrastructure, industrial, and military applications, has a backdoor account in their embedded OS that cannot be disabled, with a password trivially derived from the device's MAC address. |
| 01:51 | < Namegduf> | What. |
| 01:51 | < Namegduf> | That's not a vulnerability. That's "throw them in prison" sabotage. |
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| 01:56 | | * McMartin blows out his stack |
| 02:03 | < gnolam> | ... |
| 02:04 | < Namegduf> | I wonder if the US military will do anything to them. |
| 02:04 | < gnolam> | Probably not. That would embarrass someone. |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | Success |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/946631/ |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | I really should probably open the List and Printf modules |
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| 04:36 | <&McMartin> | Vastly improved: http://paste.ubuntu.com/946739/ |
| 04:39 | <~Vornicus> | what is this? |
| 04:39 | <&McMartin> | Generates probability tables for the game Mobile Frame Zero |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | Where the mechanic is that you throw X d6s and Y d8s and pick the top number. |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | It turns out that d8s are *really powerful* |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | (The numbers generated are wild overkill; 2d6 + 1d8 is the most powerful thing you're likely to see in the wild) |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | The purpose was to create this https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/mfz.html |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | And also to learn OCaml's multiprecision library |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | The real lesson learned there is "never do anything computationally tricky in a language that doesn't have a full numeric tower with auto-coercion" |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | So, Python, Scheme, Haskell |
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| 05:33 | | * McMartin grumbles, reinstalls git |
| 05:41 | < Rhamphoryncus> | McMartin: doesn't that also imply deep mathematics is best served by a different language than general programming? |
| 05:42 | <&Derakon> | Do you think that the two are necessarily mutually-exclusive? |
| 05:42 | <&Derakon> | Is there something about the feature set that deep maths require that make languages that support them unsuitable for general programming, IOW? |
| 05:42 | <~Vornicus> | Rham: I would not dare do much Proper Math in a normal programming language |
| 05:42 | < Rhamphoryncus> | From what I've seen they're a poor fit, yes |
| 05:43 | < Rhamphoryncus> | .. although I can't remember my basis for that opinion, so I won't be arguing it terribly well ;) |
| 05:43 | <~Vornicus> | You need indefinitely deferred, nested calls |
| 05:43 | < Rhamphoryncus> | iow, lazy? |
| 05:44 | <~Vornicus> | So lazy that sometimes they're never even evaluated in themselves |
| 05:44 | | * Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 05:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hrm.. formula-oriented vs operation-oriented? Normal programming is about tiny little pieces that all combine together, but are mostly independent. Math is one gestalt that is deeply interrelated to every other part |
| 05:46 | <~Vornicus> | like for instance: yesterday I was doing some calc tutoring and the problem came up: there's a vaguely, uh, "or" shaped segment, which is defined by its boundaries: y = tan^2 x, y = sec^2 x, x = -pi/4, x = pi/4 |
| 05:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Which also implies that math doesn't scale up as well, except of course by breaking it down into distinct components that get combined via normal programming |
| 05:46 | <~Vornicus> | The goal was to find its area |
| 05:46 | <~Vornicus> | So you can try it out and see what you get, which is a horrible integration |
| 05:47 | <~Vornicus> | but see the thing is that sec^2 x = tan^2 x + 1 |
| 05:47 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Math would find it correctly and easily. Normal programming would be painful, run fast, and be somewhat wrong ;) |
| 05:47 | <~Vornicus> | So your ultimate integral, if you're being sensible, is integral from -pi/4 to pi/4 of... 1 |
| 05:47 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh yup |
| 05:48 | <~Vornicus> | (at which point I put a :D above that part of the working) |
| 05:48 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hehe |
| 05:48 | <~Vornicus> | But I mean you've got all sorts of crazy stuff |
| 05:49 | <~Vornicus> | Forget square root, I need to be able to use "the real solution of x^5 + x = 1" as a value and use it later |
| 05:52 | <~Vornicus> | Approximations don't cut it, and that often means that you have to keep ridiculous amounts of information around: that number there cannot be described in any finite action using addiition, subtraction, mutliplication, division, or taking of rational exponents |
| 05:53 | < Rhamphoryncus> | symbolic, yeah |
| 05:54 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I've become a Qalculate fanboy largely because it's symbolic |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | The thing is, most languages aren't appropriate even for, um, improper math |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | If your language doesn't support infinite precision rationals, you have no business even using it to balance your RPGs. |
| 05:55 | < Rhamphoryncus> | But as you say it has severe performance implications (both cpu and memory), so it has to be kept arm's reach away from normal numeric types |
| 05:56 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, additional success! I have managed to get my C64 ROM chip bankswitching code to work. |
| 05:56 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Which is why a "full numeric tower" doesn't fit well in my head. Normal programming want simple, reliable, predictable forms. Math wants stupidly powerful but difficult forms. You can't have both. You just can't. |
| 05:57 | <&McMartin> | That's not what "numeric tower" means |
| 05:57 | <&McMartin> | When you're symbolic, you aren't numeric. |
| 05:57 | < Rhamphoryncus> | No, but it's a similar issue |
| 05:57 | <&McMartin> | Numeric tower means boolean at one end, and a fork partway through leading to Double at one end and Bignum-Ratio at the other. |
| 05:57 | <~Vornicus> | SOmebody once asked me about various sets |
| 05:58 | <&McMartin> | Some versions put the floating-points above all the rationals. |
| 05:58 | <&McMartin> | But basically, if you're working with integers |
| 05:58 | <&McMartin> | It should always be the case that x+1 > x if your program has continued to run. |
| 05:58 | <~Vornicus> | I came up with something like a dozen nested meaningful sets of real numbers |
| 05:58 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Although numeric tower is also about inheritance (each builds on something simpler), which I disagree with |
| 05:58 | <&McMartin> | Conceptually, you shouldn't have to give a shit |
| 05:59 | <&McMartin> | You should get to pretend that everything is infinite-precision rationals, and it will humor you even when it's actually using 32-bit ints for everything because it can |
| 05:59 | <~Vornicus> | naturals wholes integers rationals geometrics origamics radicals algebraics reals. okay so it was 9. |
| 05:59 | <&McMartin> | And, you know, Python *does* this. |
| 05:59 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Yes, an int shares *some* properties with bool, but not all (otherwise it'd be a bool, by definition). Likewise, bool shares some properties with int. And with the 17 different float types. |
| 06:00 | <&McMartin> | The key here is "bool -> int -> long -> bignum" |
| 06:00 | <&McMartin> | It's strict |
| 06:00 | <&McMartin> | You can autopromote if boolean is an integral type in your language (which, admittedly, it isn't always) |
| 06:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | That's just picking some properties, ignoring the overflow threshold |
| 06:00 | <&McMartin> | YES, THAT IS EXACTLY MY POINT, THANK YOU. |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | If you're doing any kind of computation at all, overflow has to be impossible. |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | The number of languages where this is the case, transparently, is actually quite small. |
| 06:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So you only want bignum. Not a tower |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | Well, no |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | I don't want to pay the costs of bignum if it turns out that it's not necessary. |
| 06:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Of course |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | I'd also like, you know, + to work. |
| 06:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | eh? |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | Java bignums don't let you write out equations because +-*/ are restricted to basic types, of which bignum is not. |
| 06:02 | <~Vornicus> | Rham: go open a language with 32bit integers, do 2000000000 + 2000000000 |
| 06:02 | < Rhamphoryncus> | That's a java stupidity |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | Likewise OCaml, which requires +/, -/, */, and //. |
| 06:03 | <&McMartin> | Likewise any language where bignums are not directly in the language whenever you need a constant, because autocoercion breaks compilers more often than not. |
| 06:03 | <&McMartin> | (and third-party libraries won't be using *your* bignum library) |
| 06:03 | <&McMartin> | Python, since it's dynamically typed, will happily let you add two ints and then return you a long. |
| 06:04 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, obviously it's better for a language to bake it in properly as the default and only expose other integer types when needed for performance |
| 06:04 | <&McMartin> | Haskell does the same thing while being statically typed, because of typeclass magic I don't fully understand. |
| 06:04 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Even python had a long teething period to get it right |
| 06:04 | <&McMartin> | And it now behaves in roughly the same way the LISP languages do - "numeric tower" is Scheme's name for that. |
| 06:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Hopefully python3 is the last step for that. Aside, I actually contributed a key patch to get python3 there |
| 06:05 | <&McMartin> | Haskell's is... more complicated, since it carefully represents the relationship between floats and rationals and uses a type-inference engine to split hairs on which classes of numbers a function can meaningfully work on. |
| 06:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | What tower? Python3 only has bigint |
| 06:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Well, bool too I suppose |
| 06:06 | <&McMartin> | it uses a full bigint when computing 2+2? |
| 06:06 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yes |
| 06:06 | <&McMartin> | That seems kind of excessive. |
| 06:06 | < Rhamphoryncus> | This is an interpreted language. The excess is already there |
| 06:07 | <&McMartin> | Unless, I guess, you're cheating in your definition of bigint the way UTF-8 cheats to make ASCII be unicode |
| 06:07 | <~Vornicus> | I suspect it does |
| 06:07 | <~Vornicus> | or close enough |
| 06:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | IIRC it's an array of 15 bit values |
| 06:07 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that'll work |
| 06:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | refcount, type, size, data |
| 06:07 | <~Vornicus> | (15 bit being the largest you can safely operate on and not overflow using your standard operators) |
| 06:07 | <&McMartin> | Then your 2+2 is represented as 0x0002 |
| 06:08 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Might've switched to 31 bit. I don't recall |
| 06:08 | <&McMartin> | OCaml uses 31-bit but it also fails to autopromote, which is basically the worst of all worlds |
| 06:08 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Vornicus: yup |
| 06:09 | <&McMartin> | If it wasn't the most efficient and portable language in its class I'd have already long-since chucked it |
| 06:09 | <&McMartin> | But the other systems in that class all are missing things like "separate compilation", "foreign function interface" or occasionally even "notions of standalone programs" |
| 06:10 | < Rhamphoryncus> | 8 bytes refcount, 8 bytes type, 8 bytes size, 8 bytes data. Curiously enough, although the python2 int lacked the size field, the malloc would likely pad it up anyway. I vaguely remember that being the case |
| 06:10 | < Rhamphoryncus> | And yes, that does mean 2+2 takes 256 bits :) |
| 06:11 | | * Rhamphoryncus still feels awkward saying pointers are 8 bytes |
| 06:11 | <&McMartin> | Tsk. If it's literally 2+2 you can evaluate it straight out of the AST and replace it with "4"~ |
| 06:12 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Well yes, it would |
| 06:12 | <&McMartin> | Speaking of which, I should probably get cracking on this AST-to-Quad translator, now that I have some new ideas on how to make it more CISC-friendly. |
| 06:12 | <~Vornicus> | 31 bit is safe on 64bit machines, I suspect the python guys know that |
| 06:12 | < Rhamphoryncus> | >>> from dis import dis |
| 06:12 | < Rhamphoryncus> | >>> def x(): return 2+2 |
| 06:12 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ... |
| 06:12 | < Rhamphoryncus> | >>> dis(x) |
| 06:12 | < Rhamphoryncus> | 1 0 LOAD_CONST 2 (4) |
| 06:12 | < Rhamphoryncus> | 3 RETURN_VALUE |
| 06:12 | <~Vornicus> | I remember seeing that general sort of thing fly by in patch notes a few times |
| 06:13 | <&McMartin> | Good times |
| 06:13 | <~Vornicus> | <3 dis |
| 06:13 | <&McMartin> | One of the sad things about targeting 65xx is that stack machines are the worst possible choice for everything |
| 06:13 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh |
| 06:14 | <&McMartin> | On the other hand, the reason I'm using OCaml for this compiler is because with a decent 3-address intermediate format, I should be able to implement Maximal Munch instruction selection using nothing but ML's function call disambiguator |
| 06:15 | <&McMartin> | This appeals to the same part of me that noticed, long ago, "hey, I bet you could write a working assembler in sed" |
| 06:15 | <&McMartin> | That project eventually became Ophis. |
| 06:16 | < Rhamphoryncus> | .. I'm just going to stand over here now |
| 06:17 | <&McMartin> | (Ophis is a reasonably powerful macro assembler for the 6502 class of chips written in Python) |
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| 07:03 | <&McMartin> | http://hammerprinciple.com/therighttool/statements/i-often-get-angry-when-writin g-code-in-this-langua |
| 07:26 | <&McMartin> | Assembler: Ranked low for "I would use this language for a web project" |
| 07:34 | <@TheWatcher> | Can't imagine why |
| 07:35 | <&McMartin> | And, thankfully |
| 07:35 | <&McMartin> | "LEARNING THIS LANGUAGE SIGNIFICANTLY CHANGED HOW I USE OTHER LANGUAGES. |
| 07:35 | <&McMartin> | PHP ranks dead last |
| 07:37 | <&McMartin> | Visual Basic ranked high for 'This language is likely to be a passing fad.' That train's already left the station, folks |
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| 08:59 | <&McMartin> | Woohoo |
| 08:59 | | * McMartin compiles a simple Fibonacci-computing program into his half-machine code |
| 08:59 | <&McMartin> | Not quite to the point where I want to take it all the way down yet, but soon |
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| 09:23 | < gnolam> | https://github.com/cammckinnon/Parenthetic |
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| 09:58 | <&McMartin> | yay |
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| 09:59 | < Noah> | gnolam: Does Parenthetic care about whitespaces? |
| 10:02 | < gnolam> | "All other characters are considered comments." |
| 10:05 | < Noah> | Awesome. So we can write a whitespace program inside it |
| 10:05 | <&McMartin> | https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/sample.txt |
| 10:06 | < Noah> | The bottom code is assembly, what's the top part? |
| 10:06 | < Noah> | Well, it looks assembly-ish anyway |
| 10:07 | <&McMartin> | Top part is Pascal |
| 10:07 | <&McMartin> | Bottom part is 3-address code and isn't assembly *yet*, but it can become it more readily. |
| 10:08 | < Noah> | I see |
| 10:08 | < Noah> | Sorta looks like redcode |
| 10:09 | <&McMartin> | I'm basing it on MIPS and 68k assembler :D |
| 10:09 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, the basic concept is called "Quads" or "3-address code" |
| 10:10 | <&McMartin> | Eventual goal is to turn the code into 6502 assembler, so I can mix individual functions with raw assembler as needed |
| 10:10 | < Alek> | wait, now. geometrics, algebraics, and origamics? o_o |
| 10:10 | <&McMartin> | Then I can make my life easier if I try to do anything interesting for the C64 or NES again. |
| 10:10 | <&McMartin> | Algebraics are roots of polynomials with integer coefficients |
| 10:10 | <&McMartin> | I have no idea what the other two are. |
| 10:12 | < Noah> | Origamics, the art of folding numbers into other numbers in no sensical way. Perfered math of bistro waiters. |
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| 15:03 | < gnolam> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLd8kEQJIzw <- those guys have to be demosceners, right? |
| 15:08 | <~Vornicus> | not necessarily |
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| 15:16 | <~Vornicus> | I actually don't see anything there I don't know how I'd do |
| 15:22 | <~Vornicus> | trees don't grow quite right, you can tell that they're using something like speedtree for that with semi-fixed parameters. the screen lighting is kind of hard but what you can do if you know how the screens will change their display is set their lighting values based on how much light you've precalculated them as throwing out. there's a lot of static things there, so that's not a problem; the |
| 15:22 | <~Vornicus> | clouds are perlin or similar noise and that's not hard at all, you'll note also that they look kind of wrong - the coloration of the clouds is static, it doesn't depend on the angle of incidence of the sun |
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| 15:25 | <~Vornicus> | Alek: geometrics are closed over addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and extraction of square roots |
| 15:25 | <~Vornicus> | they're the numbers you can get using euclidean geometry tools. |
| 15:26 | <~Vornicus> | origamics you also get to solve cubics but nothing higher. |
| 15:28 | <~Vornicus> | (because you can construct them using origami) |
| 15:29 | <~Vornicus> | The sunlight thing is a little tricky to get the geometry right (though the situation where it's used the geometry doesn't need to be very complicated, it's passing over straight lines) but once that's done it's just your usual volumetric fog |
| 15:34 | <~Vornicus> | I think but I'm not sure that the rain is the hardest part - it's got this lovely reflection thing going on, and the drops hit it and give a ripple, but I think you can get that by using a texture-ish thing that changes the reflectivity of a circle area |
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| 16:05 | < Tarinaky> | I'm looking for something to reverse engineer my Java project to produce some class diagrams. |
| 16:05 | < Tarinaky> | Inb4 bad practice. |
| 16:11 | <~Vornicus> | If you don't have the source available, there's a tool in the jdk that lets you, um, extract the public interface, at least |
| 16:16 | < Tarinaky> | I have source available. |
| 16:17 | < Tarinaky> | I'm -trying- to use this ant build: http://www.umlgraph.org/doc/cd-umldoc.html but I don't know enough about ant to get it to work. |
| 16:17 | < Tarinaky> | No source files and no packages have been specified. |
| 16:17 | < Tarinaky> | Is the error I'm getting atm. |
| 16:23 | < Rhamphoryncus> | That rain does look pretty flat. There's no volume to the water flows on the surfaces |
| 16:33 | < Tarinaky> | Ahah! Found it! |
| 16:33 | < Tarinaky> | Packagenames needs to point to my package. |
| 16:34 | < Tarinaky> | Now to install dot and see if we can make that work too. |
| 16:34 | <~Vornicus> | yay dot |
| 16:36 | < Tarinaky> | Semi-colons are the path seperator on windows right? |
| 16:38 | <~Vornicus> | like if you want to have paths to two different things in like %PATH%? C:\progra~1\;C:\windows\system32;etc;etc;etc |
| 16:38 | <~Vornicus> | yeah |
| 16:40 | < Tarinaky> | Oh dear God. |
| 16:40 | < Tarinaky> | I wish you could see this. |
| 16:40 | < Tarinaky> | My class diagrams look like spiderwebs. |
| 17:21 | <~Vornicus> | anyway that's not bad practice |
| 17:21 | <~Vornicus> | to look at the actual class diagrams can (if you're versed in what such diagrams mean) show you what's going on in your program |
| 17:27 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I've never managed to make a class diagram that had any value |
| 17:36 | | Derakon [chriswei@Nightstar-a3b183ae.ca.comcast.net] has joined #code |
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| 17:36 | | * Derakon swears at Firefox. |
| 17:37 | <&Derakon> | I go to load a page. As soon as it loads I get redirected to java.com to install Java. |
| 17:37 | <&Derakon> | Presumably because I disabled inline Java applets. |
| 17:37 | <&Derakon> | I'm totally fine with the Java on the page not working, but I want to see the rest of the fucking content, not get a redirect! |
| 17:37 | <~Vornicus> | thyat's not firefox so much as the page, or something |
| 17:37 | <&Derakon> | Naturally Googling for this turns up tons of useless "Waahh my Javascript redirect isn't working!" posts. |
| 17:38 | <&Derakon> | Even when I put "java.com" in quotation marks. |
| 17:38 | <&Derakon> | ...actually, no, I tell a lie. Putting java.com in quotation marks did stop the javascript results. |
| 17:38 | <~Vornicus> | the bus company around here has a see-where-the-buses-are app |
| 17:38 | <&Derakon> | Didn't tell me anything useful though. |
| 17:38 | <~Vornicus> | and one of its renderers uses svg |
| 17:39 | <~Vornicus> | But it assumes that the only svg renderer on the planet is the adobe one |
| 17:39 | <~Vornicus> | --which isn't true, chrome doesn't use adobe's svg renderer, and adobe doesn't make an svg renderer for chrome. |
| 17:41 | <~Vornicus> | So it sayd "go install the adobe svg renderer!" |
| 17:42 | | * Derakon deploys wget, opens up the resulting HTML in vim, excising the offending redirect, and is finally able to read the fucking text. |
| 17:43 | < Tarinaky> | Unfortunately this ant thing only inserts class diagrams into my javadoc. |
| 17:43 | < Tarinaky> | It doesn't give me what I need to go in my report/hand in. :( |
| 17:55 | | * Derakon eyes Amazon. $35 for a 12-disc set of Beethoven piano concertos and sonatas. |
| 17:55 | <&Derakon> | Or I can get the MP3 download for $40. |
| 17:56 | <&Derakon> | The sad thing being that I'm actually considering it, because I hardly ever use CDs these days. |
| 17:59 | | ShellNinja is now known as Number3 |
| 18:08 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 18:30 | | Noah [maoranma@Nightstar-3a8ade0d.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #code |
| 18:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...why is the MP3 download more expensive? |
| 18:33 | < Tarinaky> | Any idea if there's a way of getting a class diagram from UML graph of a given package? |
| 18:40 | <&Derakon> | I have no idea, TF . |
| 18:40 | < Noah> | ToxicFrog: From where? |
| 18:40 | <&Derakon> | Beethoven's complete piano sonatas and concertos on Amazon, Noah. |
| 18:40 | <&Derakon> | The CD price is $35, the MP3 download is $40. |
| 18:41 | < Noah> | Oh, hmm |
| 18:42 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ToxicFrog: Pirate it. More ethical :P |
| 18:42 | < Noah> | Gimme the link, I have a theory |
| 18:43 | <&Derakon> | http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Piano-Sonatas-Concertos/dp/B0043UOQ26/ |
| 18:43 | <&Derakon> | Not sold by a third party. |
| 18:49 | | * Derakon attempts a bash loop for the first time. |
| 18:49 | <&Derakon> | for file in dirname/* do; `command ${file}"; done; |
| 18:49 | <&Derakon> | "-bash: syntax error near unexpected token `done'" |
| 18:50 | <&Derakon> | Er, sorry, no semicolon after "do". |
| 18:50 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-1b92ee6c.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 18:51 | < Noah> | Price:$40.64 |
| 18:51 | < Noah> | Album Savings: $30.64 compared to buying all songs |
| 18:52 | < Noah> | So, not including the large number of songs you can't buy without buying the album, it would be like $72, thus, $40 is a "deal" |
| 18:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: and there should be one before it. |
| 18:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | for <name> in <words>; do <block>; done |
| 18:54 | <&Derakon> | Danke. |
| 18:56 | < Noah> | So apparently Amazon has tax in Tennessee |
| 18:57 | < Noah> | Of course, I got the letter way the fuck after I had filed |
| 18:59 | <&Derakon> | When I filed my taxes in CA, there was an alternate tax estimate I could pay in lieu of calculating the use tax from all of my Internet purchases. |
| 19:01 | < Noah> | Meh |
| 19:02 | < Noah> | Just means I won't bother buying anything from Amazon, since it would be more expensive than shopping local now |
| 19:08 | <&Derakon> | No civic responsibility, eh? |
| 19:08 | <&Derakon> | Amazon purchases were never untaxed. |
| 19:08 | <&Derakon> | They just weren't automatically taxed. |
| 19:09 | <&Derakon> | But basically every state has use taxes that are supposed to pick up the slack when you buy something out-of-state and import it. |
| 19:09 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-8b15022e.as43234.net] has joined #code |
| 19:09 | <&Derakon> | This didn't used to be all that much commerce, so it's not really surprising that the states were lax on enforcing it. |
| 19:09 | <&Derakon> | But it's picking up more and more, lately, so they're stepping up enforcement. The law never actually changed though. |
| 19:39 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 19:47 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-5697f7e2.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Client exited] |
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| 19:52 | | Derakon[AFK] [Derakon@Nightstar-a3b183ae.ca.comcast.net] has joined #code |
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| 19:56 | | Derakon [chriswei@Nightstar-a3b183ae.ca.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 20:07 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 20:11 | <&McMartin> | "Some people see a problem and think "I know, I'll use Java!" Now they have a ProblemFactory." |
| 20:22 | < Noah> | Problem factory? |
| 20:24 | < Number3> | No. |
| 20:24 | < Number3> | ProblemFactory. |
| 20:24 | < Number3> | It's a class. |
| 20:27 | < Derakon> | McM: hee. |
| 20:27 | < Derakon> | I admit when I first encountered the "Factory" concept I didn't really get it. |
| 20:27 | < Derakon> | "...wouldn't you just use the class constructor?" |
| 20:28 | < Derakon> | Much later I started encountering objects whose instantiation was more complicated, or where I'd need several similar objects based on some pre-determined state. |
| 20:33 | < Tarinaky> | I think all patterns and algorithms require you to see a situation where it's useful/solves a problem before you can get it. |
| 20:33 | | Eri [Eri@Nightstar-3e5deec3.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 20:33 | < Tarinaky> | Also, please slap me for using the word pattern >. |
| 20:34 | | * gnolam lets Rutger Hauer slap Tarinaky. |
| 20:34 | | * Tamber hits Tarinaky with a comically-oversized squeaky mallet. |
| 20:34 | < Derakon> | "Pattern" is a perfectly valid term to use when describing programming methodologies. |
| 20:34 | < Tarinaky> | I dislike patterns as a thing. |
| 20:34 | < gnolam> | Or corpse drinks distilled by Rutger Hauer. |
| 20:34 | < Derakon> | I'm mostly annoyed when I'm expected to recognize what a pattern is by its name. |
| 20:34 | < Tarinaky> | (the patterns themselves are fine... I just don't recognise pattern as being the class they belong to >.>) |
| 20:35 | < Derakon> | And patterns are not necessarily embodied by classes. |
| 20:35 | < Tarinaky> | I mean class in the English sense of the word. |
| 20:35 | < Derakon> | Ah. |
| 20:44 | <&jerith> | Flights booked. In Bay Area 13-20 May. |
| 20:44 | < Derakon> | Hey, you'll be around for the Maker Faire. |
| 20:44 | < Derakon> | It's the 19th and 20th. |
| 20:45 | <&jerith> | Cool. |
| 20:47 | | Serah [Z@Nightstar-5aa18eaf.balk.dk] has joined #code |
| 20:47 | | Stalker [Z@Nightstar-5aa18eaf.balk.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 21:23 | <&McMartin> | I may have to do some schedule juggling |
| 21:23 | <&McMartin> | But I am up for varieties of Stuff |
| 21:24 | <&McMartin> | Also, as I mentioned before: found a Really Quite Good persian kebab place in RWC if we don't want to hit that brewpub. |
| 21:24 | <&McMartin> | Derakon: A handful of patterns have no real good descriptors other than their name, though - "Visitor" is the one I tend to encounter never un-named |
| 21:25 | <&McMartin> | Of course, that also puts the lie to how great patterns are >_> |
| 21:25 | <&McMartin> | Patterns are "your language is not actually expressive enough to use the notation you'd like. Here's how you work around that using OO" |
| 21:26 | <&jerith> | McMartin: I have some expat friends in that part of the world, and one of them wants to organise a braai while I'm there. |
| 21:26 | <&jerith> | I'm up for something chilled on the evening of the 13th and then I'm free most of the rest of the week except for the interview on the 14th. |
| 21:27 | <&McMartin> | By chilled here do you mean "cold" or do you mean "relaxed"? |
| 21:27 | <&jerith> | And I'll probably spend a day at Wikipedia as well. |
| 21:27 | <&jerith> | McMartin: Relaxed, but cold works too. :-) |
| 21:27 | <&McMartin> | What city is your home base for the stay? |
| 21:28 | <&jerith> | Mountain View until the Tuesday, then I'm not sure yet. |
| 21:28 | <&McMartin> | (What is a "braai", other than a zombie cut down mid-sentence?) |
| 21:28 | <&McMartin> | OK |
| 21:29 | <&jerith> | (It's like a bbq, only with more South Africans.) |
| 21:29 | <&McMartin> | Then we should do the brewpub on the 13th, it should be walking distance or nearly so. |
| 21:29 | <&jerith> | I'll have a rental car until the 15th, but don't really want to be driving around at night after drinking beer. |
| 21:30 | <&jerith> | So walking distance is good. :-) |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. Do you have an address for the hotel? |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | We can take this to PM if you want. |
| 21:30 | <&jerith> | It's the one you looked up, I think. |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | OK. |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | That's a Bit Of A Hike, we might want to have someone pick you up. |
| 21:31 | <&jerith> | The email full of details hasn't arrived yet. |
| 21:31 | <&jerith> | And I'm quite happy to be picked up as well. :-) |
| 21:31 | < Derakon> | I can probably do picking up. |
| 21:31 | <&McMartin> | It's also Sunday, so MV is better than RWC because RWC rolls up the sidewalks at about 6 PM on Sundays >_< |
| 21:31 | <&McMartin> | IIRC, he's about six blocks down El Camino past Shoreline. |
| 21:32 | < Derakon> | Also I bought myself a ticket to the Maker Faire a bit ago and would be happy to go there with others. |
| 21:32 | <&McMartin> | Mmm |
| 21:32 | < Derakon> | Dunno how the 19th and 20th are for you schedulewise though. |
| 21:32 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure why my 19th will look like yet. |
| 21:32 | <&McMartin> | *what |
| 21:32 | <&jerith> | Last time I walked somewhere to meet people on a Google interview trip, I spent three quarters of an hour tromping around in the rain, went back to the hotel to find interwebs, discovere'd I'd given up one block too soon. |
| 21:32 | < Derakon> | D'oh. |
| 21:32 | <&jerith> | -' |
| 21:32 | <&McMartin> | If it's still possible to get tickets for Maker Faire, then I'll talk to the other people |
| 21:33 | <&jerith> | I leave on the afternoon/evening of the 20th. |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | I know some of my friends wanted to whale-watch. |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | But I need to see the logistics of that. |
| 21:33 | < Derakon> | McM: so about here? http://g.co/maps/nvx2v |
| 21:34 | < Derakon> | You can generally buy tickets to Maker Fair on the day of. |
| 21:34 | < Derakon> | It's more expensive of course. |
| 21:34 | < Derakon> | But that's what I did the last two years. |
| 21:34 | < Derakon> | Jerith: so you'd want to do the 19th if at all, then. |
| 21:34 | <&jerith> | |
| 21:36 | < Derakon> | \o/? |
| 21:39 | <&jerith> | My webnets went away. |
| 21:40 | <&jerith> | I had partially-written text, so I leaned on C-w a bit before invoking the ssh-death-pinch. |
| 21:41 | <&jerith> | (Whic, for some stupid reason, begins with a carriage return.) |
| 21:44 | | * Derakon finishes writing the necessary scripts to turn 36 three-dimensional images into 4 images of 3x3 captioned PNGs. |
| 21:44 | < Derakon> | This always ends up more involved than I expect it to be. Plus I'm kinda abusing the printer's toner supply. |
| 21:44 | < Derakon> | But the bossman wants printouts, so who am I to argue~ |
| 21:47 | <&jerith> | You are Derakon! |
| 21:47 | <&jerith> | You are a mighty wrangler of code, and hero of high-tech microscopy! |
| 21:49 | < Derakon> | The code in this case being three Perl scripts~ |
| 21:49 | <&jerith> | In that case, I take back what I said. Go sit in the corner with TheWatcher and Tamber.~ |
| 21:49 | <@TheWatcher> | :P |
| 21:49 | | * TheWatcher offers Derakon cookies |
| 21:50 | <@TheWatcher> | (oatmeal rasin ones, homemade, even) |
| 21:50 | <@Tamber> | :D |
| 21:50 | | * jerith dusts off his regexen and joins the Perl corner for cookies. |
| 21:53 | | Tarinaky is now known as Atreus |
| 21:53 | | * Noah puts up a partitioning wall around the Perlites. |
| 21:56 | <&jerith> | I made a pypy dev swear at me today. |
| 22:01 | <&jerith> | Barry Warsaw was talking about how they want to switch from python2 to python3 in the Ubuntu base system for the next release. |
| 22:02 | < Noah> | Does it come with a bash script to sudo apt-get remove python3 and sudo apt-get install python2? |
| 22:02 | <&jerith> | The executable is still "python3" -- they aren't pulling an Arch. |
| 22:04 | <&jerith> | Anyways, since fijal was hanging out in the channel as well, I asked him whether pypy3's going to be ready in time to become the default in 13.04. |
| 22:05 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 22:05 | | Eri [Eri@2D9871.EDE831.CBEAF6.769673] has joined #code |
| 22:10 | < Noah> | Test: ???? |
| 22:11 | <&McMartin> | SUCCESS |
| 22:11 | | * jerith plays a trump, takes all Noah's money. |
| 22:11 | < Number3> | Test: ? |
| 22:11 | < Noah> | Number3: Nice |
| 22:11 | < Noah> | So, it's all boxes in my edit bar, but I can see them okay in the window |
| 22:12 | < Eri> | Is that a hammer and sickle? |
| 22:12 | < Noah> | Eri: It sure is |
| 22:12 | < Noah> | Maybe this will help |
| 22:12 | < Eri> | Damn unicode |
| 22:12 | <&jerith> | Noah: Font issues? |
| 22:13 | < Noah> | jerith: No, I can see them |
| 22:13 | < Noah> | Just can't see them as I type |
| 22:13 | < Noah> | mIRC :\ |
| 22:13 | <&jerith> | Noah: Is it using the same font in both places? |
| 22:13 | < Noah> | Appears so |
| 22:14 | < Noah> | Fixedsys I think |
| 22:14 | <&jerith> | So it's probably groveling through other fonts for the appropriate glyphs in the text window, but not the imput bar. |
| 22:15 | < Noah> | ? |
| 22:15 | < Noah> | Strange, I can see the hammer and sickle in my editbar |
| 22:15 | < Noah> | But not card suits, lol! |
| 22:16 | < Noah> | Khaled, you commie |
| 22:18 | < Derakon> | And here I am with irssi over SSH, just seeing "\ u 2 6 2 d", of course without the spaces. |
| 22:20 | < Noah> | lol |
| 22:21 | | Serah [Z@Nightstar-5aa18eaf.balk.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 22:34 | < Alek> | whoa. |
| 22:34 | < Alek> | funky. :P |
| 22:43 | < Namegduf> | I see them both in irssi over SSH. |
| 22:44 | < Namegduf> | (cards and Communism) |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | The communism is very hard to distinguish on my font |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | It looks more like a beach umbrella |
| 22:47 | < Alek> | well, it IS tiny. |
| 22:47 | < Alek> | but I can definitely see what it is. |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, Precise Pangolin came out today |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | I should probably apply appropriate burnination thereto. |
| 22:49 | < Namegduf> | McMartin: Your font may be attempting communist propaganda. |
| 22:49 | < Namegduf> | I suggest a background check. |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | Communism: It's A Beach? |
| 22:49 | < Namegduf> | Yes. |
| 22:49 | < Namegduf> | Why not. |
| 22:50 | <&McMartin> | "Although Kubuntu has gained some measure of popularity and has seen a number of large rollouts, Canonical intends to focus solely on its own Unity environment going forward." |
| 22:53 | < Namegduf> | ... |
| 22:53 | < Namegduf> | Is this an announcement that they are dropping Kubuntu? |
| 22:54 | <&McMartin> | Official support, yes |
| 22:54 | <&McMartin> | Apparently Blue Systems will sponsor continued community work on it. |
| 22:57 | < Atreus> | Pfft... #math appears to be a strict (and small) subset of here. Anyone mind if I ask for advice on my modules here instead? |
| 23:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Yes! Channel purpose must be strict adhered to!~ (because nobody ever asks maths questions in here >.>) |
| 23:00 | < Atreus> | Right. |
| 23:00 | < Atreus> | They're letting me take AI instead of C/C++ on the CS part, which is good news. |
| 23:00 | < Atreus> | But I have no idea what maths modules to tak. |
| 23:01 | < Atreus> | Linear Algebra is my only core module. |
| 23:01 | < Atreus> | I'm currently looking at Abstract Algebra, Mathematical Physics, Numerical Analysis and Hydrodynamics. |
| 23:01 | < Atreus> | Although I might have second thoughts about doing Hydro1 as apparently it's hard. |
| 23:04 | | Number3 is now known as ShellNinja |
| 23:11 | < Atreus> | Should I think about looking at doing something other than HydroI? |
| 23:12 | | * TheWatcher notes that, honestly, it probably depends what you want to do with it all >.> |
| 23:12 | | Atreus is now known as Tarinaky |
| 23:12 | < Tarinaky> | Well, I want to work in CS/Programming rather than in Maths. |
| 23:13 | < Tarinaky> | So I don't think my choice of Maths modules matters that much. |
| 23:14 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, do they have any modules on logic? Lambda Calculus, that sort of thing? |
| 23:16 | < Tarinaky> | Not that I can see. |
| 23:16 | <&McMartin> | "Discrete Mathematics"? |
| 23:16 | <&McMartin> | Usually that's just one course though |
| 23:16 | < Tarinaky> | Neg. |
| 23:17 | < Tarinaky> | http://www.aber.ac.uk/en/study-schemes/deptfuture/?s=GG14-BSC |
| 23:18 | < Tarinaky> | I'm a Block A student because I didn't do Stats in my first year. |
| 23:20 | <@TheWatcher> | Real Analysis? |
| 23:20 | < Tarinaky> | What'd I lose in my first sem to take that though? |
| 23:20 | <&McMartin> | Real Analysis is a reaming |
| 23:21 | < Tarinaky> | Plus, if I understand this, I can do it in my third year instead. |
| 23:22 | <&McMartin> | That's when I took it |
| 23:22 | <@TheWatcher> | In all honesty, if you're doing joint CS and Maths, you signed up for a reaming~ |
| 23:22 | < Tarinaky> | What's Complex Analysis like? |
| 23:22 | < Tarinaky> | CS is easy :/ |
| 23:22 | <&McMartin> | It's more elegant and less complex |
| 23:22 | <&McMartin> | Than Real |
| 23:22 | <&McMartin> | Because it turns out that generalizing to Complex makes a lot of stuff way easier. |
| 23:23 | < Derakon> | Discrete math was the "intro to logic and proofs and set theory and combinatorics" course when I took it. |
| 23:23 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: depends what sort of CS you're talking. |
| 23:23 | < Derakon> | As such it's incredibly valuable. |
| 23:23 | < Derakon> | McM: that sounds kinda like the difference between special and general relativity. |
| 23:23 | < Tarinaky> | Well, I had to get an exception made to let me do AI instead of C/C++ or Databases. |
| 23:23 | < Tarinaky> | So yeah >.> |
| 23:23 | <&McMartin> | Derakon: The joke is that every question in complex analysis has the answer "zero" |
| 23:24 | < Derakon> | You sure it's not 0+0i~? |
| 23:24 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: I note the entire absence of hardware from that curriculum, so you're getting off easy |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | Derakon: Generally, it's things like path integrals on the plane of otherwise real-valued functions |
| 23:24 | < Tarinaky> | There's a 10 credit hardware module I could have done instead of C. |
| 23:25 | < Tarinaky> | Fuck that noise. |
| 23:25 | < Derakon> | TW: keeping in mind that I went to a science-and-engineering-centric school, the intro electrical engineering course I took was a core elective. |
| 23:25 | <@TheWatcher> | I was building pipelined processors on Xylinx boards in my first year |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | TheWatcher: I'm sorry |
| 23:25 | < Derakon> | (That is to say, I had to take electives from a certain set of courses, of which that was one) |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | Unless your Xilinx boards were much better than ours. |
| 23:25 | < Derakon> | (Actually, it was digital engineering, not electrical engineering. My bad) |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | From a "useful to CS or brain-bending" standpoint, abstract algebra was the best for me. |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | Discrete Mathematics was a requirement and is immediately and directly on point |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | To the point that it's more CS than math, and more programming than CS. |
| 23:26 | <@TheWatcher> | McM: they were bespoke built by the advanced processor technology group. |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | OK, that makes it likely they were |
| 23:26 | < Tarinaky> | Well, the TL;DR of it is I should have done Computer Science ~10 years ago. |
| 23:26 | < Tarinaky> | That way I'd have been able to do the fun modules :p |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | We were using stock parts with hand-wound wiring by the students and the damned chips only even were able to do enough layout to read a TV signal 40% of the time. |
| 23:27 | <@TheWatcher> | >.< |
| 23:27 | | himi [fow035@D741F1.243F35.CADC30.81D435] has joined #code |
| 23:27 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 23:29 | | * TheWatcher wonders what they use these days, should go look |
| 23:29 | <&McMartin> | (Digital Design was infamous at Berkeley when I was there for being a punishing test of physical endurance) |
| 23:31 | < Derakon> | That was CS70 for my stint as an undergrad. |
| 23:31 | < Derakon> | Which was basically a long sequence of "Okay, now actually implement all that stuff you've been learning about." |
| 23:31 | < Derakon> | With a significantly lesser degree of "fill in the blanks in this pre-set design" compared to previous courses. |
| 23:32 | < Derakon> | The assignments were typically due once a week and would take something like a few hours per day if you worked on them every day. Ha! |
| 23:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | <3 digital design |
| 23:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | We used FPGAs, designed and implemented our own CPU architectures |
| 23:33 | < Tarinaky> | People are telling me I should do Real before Complex Analysis. |
| 23:41 | < Tarinaky> | I'm tempted to do Real+Physics+Complex+HydroI just so I have the maximum choice in my second year :/ |
| 23:41 | < Tarinaky> | That and maybe I'm a sadist. |
| 23:42 | <@Tamber> | Masochist. Unless you really want to hurt the professors that much. ;) |
| 23:42 | < Tarinaky> | Why does it hurt the professors? |
| 23:42 | <@Tamber> | "< Tarinaky> That and maybe I'm a sadist." |
| 23:43 | < Derakon> | Sadism is inflicting pain on others. Masochism is on yourself. |
| 23:43 | < Tarinaky> | Pedant. |
| 23:45 | < Derakon> | Uh. |
| 23:45 | < Derakon> | It's not being pedantic to say "What you thought you said was in fact the complete opposite from what you did say." |
| 23:45 | < Derakon> | s/from/of/ |
| 23:46 | < Tarinaky> | Surely not being a sadist is the opposite of being a sadist? |
| 23:46 | < Derakon> | There's more than one opposite to any given word. |
| 23:46 | < Derakon> | Two things are opposite if they are very similar except in some crucial detail. |
| 23:46 | < Derakon> | Otherwise you could say that e.g. galaxies are the opposite of cubes. |
| 23:48 | < Tarinaky> | Cubes aren't Not a galaxy though? |
| 23:48 | < Tarinaky> | idk |
| 23:51 | | Derakon [chriswei@Nightstar-a3b183ae.ca.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: leaving] |
| 23:53 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:57 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| --- Log closed Fri Apr 27 00:00:26 2012 |