| --- Log opened Sat Dec 17 00:00:11 2011 |
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| 00:09 | < McMartin> | If you call hasattr() three times in a row, the King In Yellow comes and devours your code. |
| 00:10 | | * gnolam reads the backscroll. |
| 00:10 | < gnolam> | Namegduf: ... that GNOME blog post has to be a joke, right? Right? |
| 00:10 | < TheWatcher> | McM: ... I am going to have to work that into my current work projects somehow >.> |
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| 00:28 | < gnolam> | I sent it to a friend. |
| 00:28 | < gnolam> | He mistook it for a Poe. |
| 00:30 | < gnolam> | <other> ... the worst thing is I almost get Poe vibes from it. |
| 00:30 | < gnolam> | <gnolam> Yes. I thought it was a joke at first; someone making fun of the way GNOME thinks usability should be done. |
| 00:30 | < gnolam> | <other> I... still believe so? Right? |
| 00:30 | < gnolam> | <other> But it's on gnome.org. |
| 00:30 | < gnolam> | <other> Argh. |
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| 00:45 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:05 | < Derakon> | My new laptop arrived today. |
| 01:05 | < Derakon> | There's no boot/install CD. |
| 01:05 | < Derakon> | Dammit, Apple. |
| 01:06 | < Derakon> | Well, or DVD. |
| 01:08 | < iospace> | :P |
| 01:08 | < TheWatcher> | Wait, you want install media for your own machine?! What sort of dirty hippie pirate communist are you?!~ |
| 01:08 | < Derakon> | Mostly one who wanted to install the devtools from DVD instead of having to pay the $5 or whatever to install them from the app store. |
| 01:09 | < TheWatcher> | Wait, what |
| 01:10 | < Derakon> | AIUI the devtools aren't available from the apple.com website without paying the $100/year for a developer account. Or apparently you can buy them from the appstore. |
| 01:11 | < TheWatcher> | I'm no mac dev, but are you after xcode? |
| 01:11 | < Derakon> | Yeah, and the associated tools. |
| 01:11 | < Derakon> | Generally just called "Xcode". |
| 01:12 | < Derakon> | If you try to get that off of the Apple website, it'll redirect you to a "Sign up for iOs/Apple developer account" thing. |
| 01:13 | < TheWatcher> | Yeah, actually it looks like it's free on th eapp store |
| 01:13 | < Derakon> | Oh really? Good. |
| 01:13 | < Derakon> | I still want a boot/install DVD. ?.? |
| 01:14 | < TheWatcher> | Yeah, 1.6G+ of download >.< |
| 01:14 | < Derakon> | I guess tomorrow I'll get my wireless router set up, now that I have a device with a working wireless card, and continue installing stuff and generally getting this laptop up to speed. |
| 01:14 | < Derakon> | Fortunately my internet connection isn't capped. |
| 01:17 | < celticminstrel> | ...wait what? It's free on the app store? |
| 01:17 | < celticminstrel> | It wasn't last time I looked. |
| 01:18 | < celticminstrel> | Oh huh, it is, yay. |
| 01:18 | < TheWatcher> | They changed it in July, apparently |
| 01:19 | < Derakon> | Okay, that explains why all the searching I did for "how the fuck do I upgrade my devtools" always turns up "pay the appstore". |
| 01:19 | < celticminstrel> | I suppose that'll install to /Applications rather than /Developer/Applications? |
| 01:19 | < Derakon> | There's no new discussions since you don't have to pay any more, but the old ones linger. |
| 01:21 | < celticminstrel> | Ah, but apparently I need to upgrade to Lion before I can get XCode 4. |
| 01:21 | < celticminstrel> | Hopefully it'll remain free. |
| 01:22 | < Derakon> | Isn't the Lion upgrade only like $30? |
| 01:22 | < celticminstrel> | Yup. |
| 01:23 | < celticminstrel> | I don't want to install it until I get another hard drive though; I'd like to keep my Snow Leopard install around so I can run Rosetta apps. |
| 01:25 | < Derakon> | ...man, Rosetta. |
| 01:25 | < Derakon> | I haven't worried about that in a long time. |
| 01:25 | < celticminstrel> | (They're mostly games, though I do still have Appleworks docs I haven't gotten around to converting.) |
| 01:26 | < celticminstrel> | (And AppleWorks docs that I converted and never deleted the original. <_< ) |
| 01:26 | < celticminstrel> | (And occasionally I still use some of them that are database docs.) |
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| 13:10 | < Tamber> | Why do people feel the need to protect users from themselves, even if they've gone through the overcomplicated "Yes, I know what the fuck I'm doing, now get the fuck out of my way." dance? |
| 13:14 | < gnolam> | Because they're GNOME? :P |
| 13:14 | < Tamber> | Firefox in this case, but I see your point. |
| 13:15 | | * Tamber is currently being PO'd by the "We're protecting you from using anything other than the default port :D" crap. Which seems to be ignoring the override. ?? |
| 13:15 | < gnolam> | Ugh, Firefox. |
| 13:16 | < gnolam> | Didn't know they gave you crap about ports. |
| 13:16 | <@Namegduf> | I don't think I understand that one. |
| 13:16 | <@Namegduf> | As in, don't understand what they're trying to protect against. |
| 13:16 | < gnolam> | But their handling of self-signed certs drives me insane every time. |
| 13:16 | < Tamber> | It's apparently to stop lusers from ...I really don't know. |
| 13:17 | < Tamber> | It's insane, and there's no way to tell it to just fuck off. |
| 13:17 | < gnolam> | What does it do, exactly? |
| 13:17 | < Tamber> | "This address uses a network port which is normally used for purposes other than Web browsing. Firefox has cancelled the request for your protection. [OK]" |
| 13:18 | < Tamber> | So if you have to access a web interface on anything other than 80, or any of the other ports they've been badgered into allowing; you're SOL unless the override works for you. |
| 13:19 | < gnolam> | ... |
| 13:19 | < Tamber> | It's annoying me, because I'm testing my gopher server on a non-default port, since the default (70) requires root; and it /won't let me/. |
| 13:19 | <@Namegduf> | What is the port? |
| 13:19 | <@Namegduf> | Maybe if you just pick another non-default port it will be okay. |
| 13:20 | <@Namegduf> | Surely :8080 works. |
| 13:20 | < Tamber> | I tried 1077; when I got that error, I tried 1087 |
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| 13:21 | | * TheWatcher suggest using a better override: use opera~ |
| 13:21 | < Tamber> | Ew. |
| 13:21 | < Tamber> | Namegduf, nope. Since it's not the default for gopher, it doesn't want to know. |
| 13:22 | <@Namegduf> | Ah. |
| 13:22 | | * Tamber goes to see about ripping this misfeature out. |
| 13:22 | < TheWatcher> | Although a more interesting question is why you're bothering with gopher anyway |
| 13:22 | <@Namegduf> | Well, one workaround is to use a firewall rule to forward 70 to wherever it is actually listening. |
| 13:22 | <@Namegduf> | That's the normal way on Linux to tell the "must be root" rule to go away |
| 13:22 | < Tamber> | TheWatcher, because I /can/? |
| 13:23 | <@Namegduf> | This, I should note, does not in any way justify Firefox's behaviour. |
| 13:23 | < TheWatcher> | I mean, I'm sure the two people on the planet who still use it might be grateful... |
| 13:23 | < Tamber> | (Or, would be if some fucking chimp wasn't trying to protect me from doing anything other than what they consider The Right Thing.) |
| 13:25 | < Tamber> | TheWatcher, you could use the same argument to question why anyone would want to bother with anything but what everyone else uses. *shrug* |
| 13:25 | | * TheWatcher checks |
| 13:25 | < TheWatcher> | Oh, you couldn't use opera anyway, as they never supported the protocol |
| 13:26 | <@Namegduf> | Chrome doesn't really do anything but HTTP |
| 13:26 | < Tamber> | s/but HTTP// |
| 13:26 | <@Namegduf> | Hey, Chrome's awesome |
| 13:27 | < Tamber> | I hate "The web browser is an appliance. Thou shalt not change anything." |
| 13:27 | <@Namegduf> | Then you aren't going to like Firefox's new extension API. |
| 13:28 | < Tamber> | Currently I'm on a hate for everything that breaks shit, so... yeah. |
| 13:28 | < TheWatcher> | Well, all else fails, Lynx has full support for gopher! |
| 13:28 | <@Namegduf> | I hate software written as a framework which can do anything |
| 13:28 | < Tamber> | G'damn vi users. ;) |
| 13:29 | <@Namegduf> | Chrome's not "an appliance you can't change anything" in, it's just not built on a massive mess of frameworks they can expose (with no stable API) to let people tinker with it. |
| 13:29 | <@Namegduf> | Firefox's API is just exposing the internals. |
| 13:29 | < Tamber> | Really? Because last time I tried to use it, I found I wasn't allowed to change the default page colours; or disable page colours entirely. |
| 13:30 | <@Namegduf> | What does "disable page colours" mean? |
| 13:30 | <@Namegduf> | Like... special case filter CSS interpretation? |
| 13:30 | < Tamber> | Ignore what the page has set as colours, and use only what the browser has set as defaults. |
| 13:31 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, I don't think lacking that is reasonable grounds to consider it hostile to any kind of configuration. |
| 13:31 | < Tamber> | Heh. |
| 13:31 | <@Namegduf> | Firefox implements everything in a very very generic, very flexible way internally. |
| 13:31 | <@Namegduf> | Chrome just *doesn't*. |
| 13:31 | <@Namegduf> | They won't have the internal API to do that. |
| 13:32 | <@Namegduf> | You can't modify the Chrome UI to hell because the code implementing the Chrome UI implements a Chrome UI rather than being a programmable UI framework. |
| 13:32 | < Tamber> | I don't care that much about modifying the UI to hell. |
| 13:32 | <@Namegduf> | Well, what you're talking about would require some fairly specific hooks in Webkit, I think |
| 13:32 | <@Namegduf> | Plus stuff to provide access to them |
| 13:33 | < Tamber> | (The only UI modifying thing I have in Fx is Tree-style tabs.) I just want to be able to kick the web dev's choice of colours away so I can read pages without feeling like I'm sandpapering my eyes. |
| 13:33 | < TheWatcher> | That's what user stylesheets are for |
| 13:34 | <@Namegduf> | User stylesheets won't stop sites setting their own styles, I thought. |
| 13:34 | < TheWatcher> | !important |
| 13:34 | <@Namegduf> | I thought they only worked where styles weren't set overriding them. |
| 13:34 | < Tamber> | "[ ] Allow pages to choose their own colours, instead of my selections above." <3 |
| 13:34 | < TheWatcher> | It is your friend |
| 13:36 | <@Namegduf> | If I wanted that kinda thing I'd probably modify Chromium and rebuild before using FF, really. |
| 13:37 | <@Namegduf> | But I guess if it's that big a deal it makes sense. |
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| 15:09 | < Ling> | <Namegduf> Chrome doesn't really do anything but HTTP <-- It supports SPDY |
| 15:10 | < Tamber> | So HTTP /and/ a custom protocol! Wow. :p |
| --- Log closed Sat Dec 17 15:11:11 2011 |
| --- Log opened Sat Dec 17 15:27:12 2011 |
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| 16:04 | < sshine> | Namegduf, SSL => encryption bottleneck, no? |
| 16:04 | <@Namegduf> | No. |
| 16:04 | <@Namegduf> | It involves encryption, but encryption is not a bottleneck. |
| 16:05 | <@Namegduf> | It uses CPU, which is generally not a bottleneck resource. |
| 16:06 | <@Namegduf> | I guess it limits the number of concurrent users but probably not more than everything else (interpreting server-side languages, etc) will do. |
| 16:06 | <@Namegduf> | On the server. |
| 16:07 | < sshine> | Namegduf, well, I'm taking it out of context, but my impression is that the reason all big websites don't SSL-wrap everything is because of the CPU bottleneck. |
| 16:07 | <@Namegduf> | I don't believe that's actually a big problem. |
| 16:08 | <@Namegduf> | Also the word "bottleneck" is very misapplied here. |
| 16:08 | <@Namegduf> | It implies there's some kind of single limiting factor which prevents using other resources fully. |
| 16:09 | <@Namegduf> | That's not the case, particularly for big websites; they have as many frontend servers as they need. |
| 16:11 | <@Namegduf> | There's some latency concerns because SSL does more roundtrips, but there's no fundamental performance problem with encrypting everything. |
| 16:16 | < sshine> | Namegduf, so facebook wouldn't need to multiply their server farm if every HTTP request to them was encrypted? |
| 16:16 | < sshine> | Namegduf, I don't know anything about SSL performance, I just memorize what DJB says. |
| 16:17 | < Ling> | You can actually just SSL at the load-balancer. |
| 16:18 | < Ling> | Although some my say that's "cheating" |
| 16:18 | <@Namegduf> | That's perfectly good. |
| 16:18 | < sshine> | Ling, it wouldn't be cheating if the load-balancer is within facebook's network.. |
| 16:19 | < Ling> | I don't want to debate that at the moment. Just know that tcpdump exists, and so do crackers. |
| 16:19 | < sshine> | right |
| 16:20 | <@Namegduf> | If the load balancer is part of the same administration scheme, within the same physical location, then the scenario where such "crackers" can compromise it, but not compromise the servers themselves |
| 16:21 | <@Namegduf> | Is sufficiently unlikely as not to be one of the most significant security problems to be resolved- more security is gained by applying attention elsewhere. |
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| 16:21 | <@Namegduf> | "In January this year (2010), Gmail switched to using HTTPS for everything by default. Previously it had been introduced as an option, but now all of our users use HTTPS to secure their email between their browsers and Google, all the time. In order to do this we had to deploy no additional machines and no special hardware. On our production frontend machines, SSL/TLS accounts for less than 1% of the CPU load, less than 10KB of memory per con |
| 16:21 | <@Namegduf> | That probably cut off. |
| 16:22 | <@Namegduf> | "On our production frontend machines, SSL/TLS accounts for less than 1% of the CPU load, less than 10KB of memory per connection and less than 2% of network overhead. Many people believe that SSL takes a lot of CPU time and we hope the above numbers (public for the first time) will help to dispel that." |
| 16:22 | <@Namegduf> | Made a guess about where it might have done so. |
| 16:22 | < Ling> | "less than 10KB of memory per con" |
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| 16:23 | < sshine> | Namegduf, which website did they talk about? |
| 16:24 | <@Namegduf> | GMail. |
| 16:24 | < sshine> | cool. it changes my perspective. |
| 16:25 | <@Namegduf> | http://www.imperialviolet.org/2010/06/25/overclocking-ssl.html <- This is the article. |
| 16:25 | < Ling> | TBH, HTTP isn't exactly fast to parse. |
| 16:25 | < Ling> | I wouldn't be surprised it SSL's overhead was less than HTTP's |
| 16:27 | <@Namegduf> | Virtual hosting is still a real problem. |
| 16:28 | < Ling> | nginx handles VHosts + SSL |
| 16:28 | < Ling> | Apache doesn't |
| 16:28 | <@Namegduf> | It requires client support |
| 16:28 | <@Namegduf> | Apache can |
| 16:28 | <@Namegduf> | Client support is not universal, though. |
| 16:28 | < Ling> | Oh finally? |
| 16:28 | < Ling> | Bah, no-one gives a shit about IE6 users. |
| 16:29 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, it's increasingly widespread. |
| 16:29 | <@Namegduf> | That's something. |
| 16:29 | <@Namegduf> | Nothing on WIndows XP will, apparently, though. |
| 16:29 | <@Namegduf> | IE or Safari on XP, rather. |
| 16:30 | <@Namegduf> | According to wiki, wget needs a patch, BlackBerry won't, Windows Mobile (<=6.5) won't, and bizarrely, Android won't. Also Qt <=4.7 and Python's web libraries in 2.x. |
| 16:31 | < Ling> | (Fixed in Honeycomb for tablets, targeted for Ice Cream Sandwich for phones) |
| 16:31 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah. |
| 16:31 | < Ling> | So basically Android 4.x will. |
| 16:32 | <@Namegduf> | It's getting better. |
| 16:32 | <@Namegduf> | "Konqueror is one of the few |
| 16:32 | <@Namegduf> | remaining significant browsers lacking TLS SNI support." |
| 16:32 | <@Namegduf> | I disagree. |
| 16:32 | <@Namegduf> | Konqueror is not significant! |
| 16:32 | < Tamber> | ...Konqueror is significant? |
| 16:32 | <@Namegduf> | XD |
| 16:32 | < Tamber> | :D |
| 16:35 | < Ling> | Who in their right mind would use Konqueror? |
| 16:38 | < sshine> | people who install Kubuntu with no additional packages? ;-) |
| 16:39 | < sshine> | anyway, isn't it all WebKit now, anyways? |
| 16:39 | < sshine> | apparently WebKit stems from Konqueror! |
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| 16:43 | <@Namegduf> | It does, yeah. |
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| 22:33 | < Derakon> | Anyone familiar with git/github here? |
| 22:33 | < Tamber> | A little. |
| 22:33 | < Derakon> | I want to be able to push changes from my desktop to the github account without having to bother with setting up SSH keys. |
| 22:33 | | * AnnoDomini points to Ling. |
| 22:33 | < Derakon> | Surely there must be some way to just say "Hey, I'm <username> trying to push to my account", get prompted for my password, and then do the push. |
| 22:33 | < Tamber> | Oh. Not sure I could help there, then. |
| 22:34 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-14eb6405.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #code |
| 22:36 | < celticminstrel> | Derakon: Use the https URL. |
| 22:36 | < Derakon> | There's no http going on here. |
| 22:36 | < Derakon> | Just "git push origin branchname". |
| 22:36 | < celticminstrel> | Right, so set origin's URL to be the https URL. |
| 22:37 | | * Derakon searches for "origin" in the .git directory, finds no URLs associated. |
| 22:37 | < TheWatcher> | I guess at some point I should put some of my stuff on github, rather than run my own git server etc... |
| 22:38 | | AnnoDomini [annodomini@Nightstar-f7eedefa.80-203-17.nextgentel.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: Good night.] |
| 22:38 | < celticminstrel> | .git/config |
| 22:38 | < Derakon> | Oh, wait, there it is. |
| 22:38 | < Derakon> | url = git://github.com/derakon/v4.git |
| 22:39 | < Derakon> | Ah, changing the first "git" to "https" does seem to have done the trick. |
| 22:39 | < Derakon> | Thanks, CM. |
| 22:39 | < celticminstrel> | Ah, you can also add derakon@ so that it doesn't need to prompt for username. :P |
| 22:40 | < Derakon> | Heh, sure, why nont. |
| 22:40 | < Derakon> | Er, not. |
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| 23:50 | < McMartin> | Huh, Lua 5.2 came out last week. |
| --- Log closed Sun Dec 18 00:00:09 2011 |