| --- Log opened Fri Dec 16 00:00:50 2011 |
| 00:01 | <~Vornicus> An exponential function when drawn on a log graph looks like a straight line. |
| 00:02 | <~Vornicus> A function on a log-log graph that looks like a straight line has the form ax^b where a and b are both in R |
| 00:08 | <~Vornicus> Y U NO WORK, PROJECT EULER |
| 00:08 | | Thaqui [Thaqui@27B34E.D54D49.F53FA1.6A113C] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 00:08 | < jerith> | Seems to be working for me... |
| 00:09 | <~Vornicus> I'm still getting timeouts. |
| 00:09 | <~Vornicus> dns timeouts that is |
| 00:10 | < jerith> | lantea:~ jerith$ host projecteuler.net |
| 00:10 | < jerith> | projecteuler.net has address 109.169.51.83 |
| 00:10 | < jerith> | Shove that in your hosts file? |
| 00:11 | <~Vornicus> now if I could remember what that was even called on windows i'd be good. |
| 00:11 | < jerith> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosts_(file) |
| 00:12 | <~Vornicus> ah, in etc/hosts, of course |
| 00:18 | <~Vornicus> wtfx |
| 00:19 | | eckse [eckse@Nightstar-5b44a3e4.dsl.sentex.ca] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 00:19 | <~Vornicus> Does chrome, like, not use Windows' built in DNS? |
| 00:20 | <~Vornicus> ...no, it might, because ff is having trouble too. |
| 00:20 | <~Vornicus> What is going on, why is it not looking there |
| 00:22 | <~Vornicus> wtfx, oh. |
| 00:22 | <~Vornicus> okay, figured out what was wrong. |
| 00:23 | <~Vornicus> I reinstalled windows at some point because I was having random-assed activation issues, and so now apparently i have two WINDOWS folders, and the one labelled WINDOWS.0 is the right one. |
| 00:25 | < celticminstrel> | ... |
| 00:25 | <~Vornicus> I should fix that sometime but I suspect it'd require a nuke&pave |
| 00:26 | < celticminstrel> | Or hard links. >_> |
| 00:26 | <~Vornicus> celmin: this is what you get, when you have three copies of the WinXP CD, and five different WinXP product keys, and none of them work together. |
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| 00:27 | <~Vornicus> So I finally broke down and pirated the damn thing. |
| 00:27 | < celticminstrel> | Ehe. |
| 00:27 | | * celticminstrel wouldn't mind a WinXP for BootCamp... |
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| 01:06 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 01:12 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakno |
| 01:12 | | Derakno is now known as Derakon |
| 01:12 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:18 | | io|afk is now known as iospace |
| 01:19 | < gnolam> | ... damn you, "Hackers". |
| 01:19 | < McMartin> | OMG HAX |
| 01:20 | < gnolam> | I just can't read about RISC architectures without That Quote popping up in my brain. |
| 01:22 | < McMartin> | ... I don't know this quote |
| 01:22 | < gnolam> | McMartin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwg4mbGL4JE#t=0m38s |
| 01:23 | < gnolam> | It's going to change everything! |
| 01:23 | < gnolam> | (That movie is surprisingly tolerable with enough booze, BTW) |
| 01:26 | < Alek> | heh |
| 01:47 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-48d39518.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 01:59 | < Ling> | <enderst> dns is that mysterious set of numbers that i have to enter with my ip. absolutely nothing to do with my email |
| 02:00 | | * McMartin consults his customer assistance flowchart |
| 02:00 | < McMartin> | It says "shoryuken" |
| 02:00 | < Ling> | I got Pavlov. |
| 02:00 | < Ling> | My chart ends in Pavlov frequently. |
| 02:00 | < McMartin> | All roads lead to shoryuken |
| 02:00 | | * Ling makes note to get more gas for Pavlov. |
| 02:01 | < gnolam> | Heh |
| 02:01 | < McMartin> | That said, the first sentence there is at least semi-true. |
| 02:01 | < gnolam> | Ling: Pavlov? |
| 02:01 | < Ling> | I named my chainsaws Pavlov and Darwin. |
| 02:01 | < McMartin> | The DNS servers are the magical True Names of the servers that let you talk to the network with proper names. |
| 02:05 | < gnolam> | Ling: "Pavlov's diary, day 45. Still no salivation upon start of chainsaw. Time to investigate other stimuli than cutting dogs' heads off before feeding them?" |
| 02:11 | < Derakon> | Nah. One of these days one of 'em'll learn from his companions' examples. |
| 02:16 | < McMartin> | I assume the latter is a Queen of Wands reference? |
| 02:27 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 02:29 | < Ling> | Issue: can't write to /mnt/sdcard/Pictures on my eee transformer. How do I get pictures on there? I can't mount it either :/ |
| 02:34 | <~Vornicus> Ling:make sure you have your sdcard's automount set to let everyone read it. |
| 02:34 | <~Vornicus> er, write it |
| 02:34 | < Ling> | How? |
| 02:34 | < Ling> | Note: this isn't rooted. |
| 02:34 | < Ling> | It's an Android device |
| 02:35 | <~Vornicus> If you can't get sudo, you can't; you'd need to change one of the root confs. |
| 02:36 | <~Vornicus> IIRC it's automount.conf |
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| 03:59 | <~Vornicus> mmmm, one liners. |
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| 04:34 | <~Vornicus> erp. That's actually a bug. |
| 04:34 | | * Vornicus counts A 2 3 4 5 as a better hand than 2 3 4 5 6 |
| 04:38 | <~Vornicus> ...I... think. |
| 04:39 | < Derakon> | That shouldn't be right. |
| 04:40 | <~Vornicus> It's not, but I would be honestly surprised it there's no ace-low straights running against other straights in the test data. |
| 04:40 | <~Vornicus> And I, you know. Got the right answer. |
| 04:40 | < Derakon> | Heh. |
| 04:44 | | * Vornicus tries to figure out how to fix that. |
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| 04:56 | <~Vornicus> Okay. Think I have it. When I have an ace-low straight, replace the usual 12 rank (cards get their rank numbers from the rank's location in a string) with -1. |
| 05:12 | <~Vornicus> Yeah, that appears to do it. |
| 05:12 | <~Vornicus> And I haven't broken anything else badly enough for there to be problems, so okay. |
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| 06:16 | | * gnolam sacrifices an i7 to MIMDir's Well. |
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| 08:39 | < EvilDarkLord> | http://nikic.github.com/2011/12/12/How-big-are-PHP-arrays-really-Hint-BIG.html |
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| 15:30 | < iospace> | Programmer as well? :P |
| 15:31 | | * iospace gently pokes Mg_c0nverse |
| 15:31 | < Mg_c0nverse> | no im not :P |
| 15:31 | < iospace> | ah |
| 15:32 | < Mg_c0nverse> | why ? |
| 15:32 | < iospace> | this is the programmer channel ^_^ |
| 15:32 | < iospace> | or well |
| 15:32 | < Mg_c0nverse> | ohh i c |
| 15:32 | < iospace> | tech channel |
| 15:32 | < iospace> | same rules as #Fleet, whole words please :P |
| 15:34 | | * iospace eyes her loopback test |
| 15:34 | < iospace> | WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYY D< |
| 15:34 | < iospace> | apparently the driver for that serial device is getting /nothing/ |
| 15:37 | < iospace> | (that and linux seems to want to disable the FIFOs) |
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| 15:50 | | * jerith remembers doing serial port stuff. |
| 15:50 | < jerith> | Quite a long time ago. |
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| 16:32 | < iospace> | bah |
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| 16:33 | < iospace> | nothign like finding out your project has been scrapped due to technicalities |
| 16:34 | < jerith> | :-( |
| 16:35 | < Tamber> | Oh dear. |
| 16:35 | < iospace> | aka linux being a royal pain |
| 16:35 | < iospace> | (but hey it works in vxworks) |
| 16:39 | < TheWatcher> | What were you trying to do? |
| 16:46 | < McMartin> | (odd that something would work in vxworks but not Linux unless it was some seriously hardcore realtime thing) |
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| 17:56 | < iospace> | 12:55:36 < Sefam> What's better than PHP? |
| 17:56 | < iospace> | I died a little :< |
| 17:56 | < Tamber> | "Chewing broken glass" |
| 17:57 | < celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 17:57 | < Tamber> | "Swimming in acid", "Parachuting without the parachute." ...it's a long list. :p |
| 17:57 | < iospace> | i went everything |
| 18:00 | < iospace> | 13:00:02 <@Mysticode> if the top tier companies for e-commerce and still using it |
| 18:00 | < iospace> | 13:00:05 <@Mysticode> there MUST be a good reason to it |
| 18:00 | | * iospace facepalms |
| 18:02 | < Tamber> | Which is why IE6 is /obviously/ not bad, it's just misunderstood! |
| 18:02 | < celticminstrel> | There sort of is a good reason. |
| 18:02 | < Tamber> | Because the alternative hurts even more? |
| 18:02 | < celticminstrel> | Nearly every webhoster supports it (except for the ones that support nothing at all). |
| 18:02 | < iospace> | celticminstrel: oh? |
| 18:02 | < iospace> | heh |
| 18:02 | < Tamber> | Fairy nuff. |
| 18:03 | < iospace> | well |
| 18:03 | | AnnoDomini is now known as DanielFrost |
| 18:03 | < iospace> | ruby on rails is a bigger piece of shit if you ask me |
| 18:03 | < celticminstrel> | Whereas Python isn't widely supported. |
| 18:03 | < celticminstrel> | Or other alternatives. |
| 18:03 | < celticminstrel> | Like yes, Ruby on Rails or I guess JSP... |
| 18:04 | < McMartin> | Python isn't wide supported wait what? |
| 18:04 | < celticminstrel> | (Though if it's a "top tier" company you'd expect it to get a webhost with ssh access, meaning they can install whatever. <_< ) |
| 18:04 | < celticminstrel> | s/you'd/I'd/ |
| 18:05 | < celticminstrel> | McMartin: Specifically in webhosting contexts. |
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| 19:13 | < jerith> | PHP has the advantage of being ubiquitous. |
| 19:13 | < iospace> | yes |
| 19:13 | < jerith> | It also has the disadvantage of being a steaming heap of fragrant dung. |
| 19:13 | < iospace> | hey now |
| 19:13 | < iospace> | no insulting dung |
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| 21:47 | < AnnoDomini> | Under Perl, how do I check if something is a number? |
| 21:49 | < Tamber> | I expect to be slapped for this, but I usually regex it. <.<; |
| 21:49 | < AnnoDomini> | That's fine. How? |
| 21:49 | <@Namegduf> | w00t: "And finally, all the ear-splitting whining by hidebound fossils with chalk instead of red blood in their veins about all the wonderful new stuff free software's flagship projects like KDE, Gnome and Ubuntu have released this year" |
| 21:49 | <@Namegduf> | This guy you've linked. |
| 21:49 | <@Namegduf> | He's a moron. |
| 21:50 | < AnnoDomini> | Though... I don't need to check. |
| 21:50 | <@Namegduf> | Oh, wow. |
| 21:50 | <@Namegduf> | Mischan. |
| 21:50 | < AnnoDomini> | I can just feed it to a function where it's irrelevant. |
| 21:50 | <@Namegduf> | I somehow shifted one right. |
| 21:50 | < Tamber> | AnnoDomini, if($var =~ m/\d+\.?\d+){ print "it's a number.\n" } I think. Of course, that doesn't cover scientific notation, or... well, anything other than the very simple case. |
| 21:50 | <@Namegduf> | Sorry. |
| 21:50 | | * Namegduf was discussing an lwn.net article |
| 21:51 | | * Tamber sneakily inserts the missing / into that regex. |
| 21:51 | < Tamber> | << m/\d+\.?\d+/ >> |
| 21:53 | | * Tamber thinks about it a bit more. |
| 21:54 | < AnnoDomini> | "/\dd\d/" <- Would this detect #d#, such as 3d6? |
| 21:55 | < Tamber> | Yes. |
| 21:58 | < McMartin> | But not 3d10 |
| 21:58 | < AnnoDomini> | I see. |
| 21:58 | < Tamber> | (Just thinking about it a bit more; /-?\d+(\.?\d+)?(E[-+]\d+)?/ would probably do a little better at numbers, I *think*. (Seems to work in my head.)) |
| 21:58 | < McMartin> | Er, wait |
| 21:58 | < McMartin> | No, yeah |
| 21:59 | < McMartin> | Best would be /(\d+)d(\d+)/ |
| 21:59 | < McMartin> | Which captures the X and Y of XdY in $1 and $2. |
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| 22:03 | < AnnoDomini> | Thanks. |
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| 22:19 | < celticminstrel> | Namegduf: Now I kinda want to see what you were talking about. :P |
| 22:20 | <@Namegduf> | http://lwn.net/Articles/472157/ |
| 22:20 | <@Namegduf> | "2011: The Year of Linux Disappointments" |
| 22:20 | < Tamber> | Like it is every year? |
| 22:20 | < AnnoDomini> | Linux is fine. |
| 22:20 | < McMartin> | "The defining feature of ponies is that you don't get to have them." |
| 22:21 | <@Namegduf> | Someone felt the need to link a long thing ending in a mention of how GNOME and Ubuntu's apathetic reception for their stuff is solely the fault of "ear-splitting whining by hidebound fossils with chalk instead of red blood in their veins" |
| 22:21 | <@Namegduf> | Also that's what I said. |
| 22:21 | < Tamber> | ...rather than it being shit? |
| 22:22 | <@Namegduf> | Right. |
| 22:22 | <@Namegduf> | That's also what I said. |
| 22:22 | < McMartin> | I've used 11.04, it wasn't bad. |
| 22:22 | < AnnoDomini> | I use Debian, it's not bad. |
| 22:22 | | iospace is now known as iodriving |
| 22:23 | < Tamber> | AnnoDomini, sure; but every year is "The Year of Linux on the Desktop", and every year they whine that whatever they meant by that... er, hasn't happened. |
| 22:23 | <@Namegduf> | XMonad made a release, Debian is chugging along. |
| 22:23 | < Tamber> | :) |
| 22:23 | <@Namegduf> | Stuff is fine. |
| 22:23 | < McMartin> | Fedora's doing all right. |
| 22:23 | < Tamber> | World keeps turning; things keep running, despite continued prophecies of their doom; etc. |
| 22:24 | <@Namegduf> | GNOME is quite happily trying to destroy itself, I'm just not hugely fussed. |
| 22:24 | < Tamber> | The useful bits'll be spun out (And have been, IIRC.) |
| 22:24 | < McMartin> | The odd thing is that the under-the-hood parts of GNOME have been getting steadily better |
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| 22:24 | < McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:24 | <@Namegduf> | What, they've not started rewriting them in Mono yet? |
| 22:24 | <@Namegduf> | Weird. |
| 22:25 | < Tamber> | XD |
| 22:25 | <@Namegduf> | (Because if there's one thing my system needs, it is more heavyweight runtimes involved in the base environment) |
| 22:25 | < McMartin> | I still consider GTK and friends to be part of GNOME, even if they don't~ |
| 22:25 | < McMartin> | (Vala omg~) |
| 22:25 | <@Namegduf> | Ah. |
| 22:25 | < McMartin> | GObject is worthwhile only as a terrible warning to others |
| 22:26 | < Tamber> | Namegduf, especially if the heavy runtime is only used for one thing that you'll never use, but trying to remove it breaks everything/uninstalls all the bits you do use? :p |
| 22:26 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah. |
| 22:26 | <@Namegduf> | It's like Evolution but even worse. |
| 22:26 | <@Namegduf> | But I don't *run* the GNOME environment. |
| 22:26 | <@Namegduf> | So this isn't really my problem so much. |
| 22:27 | < McMartin> | I'm not sure whether to be amused or offended by the fact that of the various next-gen environments, it's Windows 8 that offends me the least. |
| 22:27 | <@Namegduf> | I'm vaguely offended at the claims to use HTML+CSS when it is really more XAML-powered in reality. |
| 22:27 | < McMartin> | Since it seems to be the only one that remembered that desktops also exist, and seems to be doing the mobile/desktop unification purely for cynical business reasons |
| 22:27 | <@Namegduf> | But that's not such a big thing. |
| 22:27 | <@Namegduf> | Heh. |
| 22:27 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, I'm tired of that "ignore desktops" attitude. |
| 22:28 | < McMartin> | ("We'd really rather just maintain *one* 10+ MLOC codebase, thanks") |
| 22:28 | <@Namegduf> | Oh. |
| 22:28 | < McMartin> | Which is honestly hard to argue with even if it is driven by human resources efficiency concerns |
| 22:28 | <@Namegduf> | I thought the cynical business reasons were "Desktop users will take what we give them because they have no choice, and if being the same as our desktop OS helps tablets, then we will do it." |
| 22:29 | < McMartin> | I'm sure that doesn't hurt |
| 22:29 | < McMartin> | But I refuse to believe that WinCE wasn't named as a commentary by the developers~ |
| 22:29 | <@Namegduf> | Hah. |
| 22:30 | <@Namegduf> | Well, they could maintain one base system and multiple shells. |
| 22:30 | <@Namegduf> | If they could research a concept called "modularity". |
| 22:30 | < McMartin> | What I've seen of Win8 strongly implies that this is how it rolls. |
| 22:30 | <@Namegduf> | Win 8 does but it puts both shells on both systems. |
| 22:30 | < McMartin> | One of the "tablet screens" seems to look exactly like a Win7 desktop. |
| 22:30 | < McMartin> | I'm OK with that. |
| 22:30 | <@Namegduf> | And considers the "touch interface" the superior on both. |
| 22:31 | < McMartin> | Zombie Steve has commanded it from beyond the grave. |
| 22:31 | < Tamber> | "*lurch* Taaaableeeeeetssss...."? |
| 22:31 | < celticminstrel> | Heh, GNOME trying to destroy itself? |
| 22:31 | < McMartin> | It's like one of the designers saw a Mac once and fixated on exactly the wrong parts of it. |
| 22:32 | < McMartin> | (GNOME) |
| 22:32 | < celticminstrel> | Which wrong parts? |
| 22:32 | < McMartin> | If Win8 lets me stack arbitrary applications as tiles of sorts, I'll be completely thrilled with it |
| 22:32 | <@Namegduf> | Basically superficial aspects of the UI instead of the actually useful bits. |
| 22:32 | < McMartin> | Since I tile reference material and editor as my usual operations. |
| 22:32 | <@Namegduf> | They'll have backwards scrolling soon. |
| 22:32 | < celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 22:32 | < McMartin> | And the bits that are only useful because of the way Mac does windows and GTK doesn't |
| 22:33 | < celticminstrel> | Backwards scrolling... oh you mean move up to scroll down? |
| 22:33 | <@Namegduf> | Yes. |
| 22:33 | < celticminstrel> | Well, Mac made that optional. :P |
| 22:33 | <@Namegduf> | Oh, and the lack of power controls, which are missing on OS X because OS X runs on devices which will in fact overheat if left running while closed. |
| 22:33 | < celticminstrel> | ...they will? |
| 22:33 | < celticminstrel> | Which devices? |
| 22:33 | <@Namegduf> | I believe some of the Pros could. |
| 22:34 | <@Namegduf> | Possibly not recent models. |
| 22:34 | < celticminstrel> | Don't they sleep when closed? |
| 22:34 | <@Namegduf> | Exactly. |
| 22:34 | <@Namegduf> | The power settings are missing so that they always sleep on close. |
| 22:34 | < celticminstrel> | ...that's a problem? |
| 22:34 | < celticminstrel> | I'm confused... |
| 22:35 | <@Namegduf> | I'll try to pull it together better: The reason OS X has no power settings is because it runs on hardware which would, if left running, overheat when closed, so there can't be options to let you keep it running. |
| 22:35 | < celticminstrel> | Ahh. |
| 22:35 | <@Namegduf> | GNOME has no such specific target hardware. |
| 22:36 | < jerith> | OS X has some power settings. |
| 22:37 | <@Namegduf> | It has some for inactivity. |
| 22:37 | <@Namegduf> | Not some for responding to lid close. |
| 22:38 | < jerith> | Specifically, it lets you configure inacctivity settings and display dimming depnding on whether you're running on battery or not. |
| 22:39 | < jerith> | I'm pretty sure having an external display plugged in counts as "lid open", or something. I've seen people use their macbooks woth external peripherals while the lid is closed. |
| 22:39 | <@Namegduf> | I believe that is the case. |
| 22:39 | <@Namegduf> | GNOME also mimics that behaviour and it can't be turned off. |
| 22:40 | <@Namegduf> | That said, maybe it's hardware specific. |
| 22:41 | <@Namegduf> | http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2011/02/02/is-gnome-3-going-to-melt-your-laptop/ <- Because the case where it is bad behaviour for GNOME in mimicing that behaviour (without configurability) is a Macbook. |
| 22:41 | <@Namegduf> | The solution, of course, is to try to blacklist everything which might overheat ever, not to expose configuration options of any sort. |
| 22:41 | < Tamber> | It's The Gnome Way(TM) |
| 22:42 | <@Namegduf> | I tend to think it's pretty awful, but then I think they're getting this usability deal completely wrong anyway. |
| 22:42 | <@Namegduf> | Linux's problem isn't average usability- average usability is fine. |
| 22:42 | <@Namegduf> | Most operations users will do most of the time are no harder nowadays. |
| 22:43 | < celticminstrel> | Does the overheating issue only come from use of the laptop's screen? |
| 22:43 | <@Namegduf> | The problem is the exceptions are really harsh/ |
| 22:43 | < Tamber> | ...also, I like the post linked when someone complained about it being about choice. http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2009/09/23/linux-is-about-choice/ Although, this really does cement the image I have of GNOME developers... |
| 22:43 | < Tamber> | "Just because something can be done (e.g., letting users /have settings other than what I say is right and proper/), doesn't mean it should be done." |
| 22:44 | <@Namegduf> | On Linux, more operations hit an unacceptable level of difficulty. |
| 22:44 | <@Namegduf> | For the "average user". |
| 22:44 | <@Namegduf> | GNOME is all focused around dumbing down the already perfectly doable things and ignoring the hard stuff. |
| 22:45 | <@Namegduf> | Sometimes to do this they make more stuff into "hard stuff" by leaving out options that such a user might conceivably NEED. |
| 22:45 | <@Namegduf> | This is not going to make them big on the desktop. |
| 22:45 | <@Namegduf> | That's what I think is a fundamental problem with their approach, anyway. |
| 22:45 | < McMartin> | Heh |
| 22:46 | < McMartin> | Ubuntu appears to have noticed everyone hates Unity |
| 22:46 | < McMartin> | However, there is a definite problem in that not *enough* people hate compiz |
| 22:46 | <@Namegduf> | Compiz is not so much terrible as it is a source of technical issues while contributing nothing. |
| 22:46 | <@Namegduf> | I think. |
| 22:47 | < McMartin> | It contributes useless features that nobody wants, and that mutter does better while also replacing metacity. |
| 22:47 | < McMartin> | Unity ties into this stack somewhere |
| 22:47 | <@Namegduf> | Well, it's very configurable |
| 22:48 | <@Namegduf> | I used to, a long time ago, have a very custom compiz setup. But I was comfortable reverting stuff if I ran into driver issues. |
| 22:48 | <@Namegduf> | It never really did all that much anyway, though. |
| 23:00 | < RichardBarrell> | Meh. |
| 23:00 | < RichardBarrell> | We can solve the entire problem of crap desktop environments pretty simply, though not easily. |
| 23:01 | < RichardBarrell> | Let's just all agree to resurrect the LainOS project and make a usable desktop environment out of it, k? |
| 23:05 | < RichardBarrell> | http://lainos.sourceforge.net/ |
| 23:05 | < RichardBarrell> | ^- only maybe 85% utter joke. |
| 23:06 | < Tamber> | I was just wondering about that. It's hard to tell, with some projects. |
| 23:11 | < RichardBarrell> | My favourite skimming-the-line projects are FFI modules. |
| 23:12 | < RichardBarrell> | Python's ctypes and now Spidermonkey's jsctypes |
| 23:14 | < RichardBarrell> | "So, having fun in this nice little memory-safe language, are we? Annoyed by how long it takes to write and compile extensions to interface to existing C code, perhaps? Well! Have I ever got an insane proposition for you..." |
| 23:14 | < RichardBarrell> | There's a drinking game in there. |
| 23:14 | < Tamber> | Every time you blow something up by forgetting a NULL, down a bottle? |
| 23:15 | < RichardBarrell> | Yes. Sit at a python REPL, abuse ctypes to write short pointless programs, take a shot every time you make the interpreter dump core. |
| 23:15 | < Tamber> | hehe |
| 23:15 | < RichardBarrell> | Honestly, C FFIs in higher level languages (Python, Haskell, etc) are really fun. |
| 23:15 | < RichardBarrell> | You get all the danger and excitement of C but also alarmingly convenient syntax. :) |
| 23:16 | < Tamber> | <<All the fun of Python's clarity of delimitation and program flow, with the memory management and type safety of C!>> |
| 23:16 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-9d19ccd5.as43234.net] has joined #code |
| 23:17 | < RichardBarrell> | C's type-safety is, well... |
| 23:18 | < RichardBarrell> | Okay, it's type-safety is still nonexistent. But its type system *strictness* is now stronger than it has been, now that the strict-aliasing rule makes most uses of type-punning pointers utterly undefined behaviour. :) |
| 23:18 | < Tamber> | Oooooh, undefined behaviour! |
| 23:18 | < Tamber> | The best kind! ;) |
| 23:19 | < jerith> | ctypes is remarkably handy. |
| 23:20 | < jerith> | Much easier than messing about with the CPython extension API, and it's portable to pypy. |
| 23:20 | < RichardBarrell> | "portable to pypy" is absolutely a killer app for ctypes for me. |
| 23:20 | < RichardBarrell> | Even though I don't actually run pypy in production yet. *shakes fist* Want to though. |
| 23:21 | < jerith> | Why don't you? |
| 23:21 | < RichardBarrell> | Plone 3.3, Zope 2.10. |
| 23:21 | < jerith> | (I know why I don't. psycopg2 and Django.) |
| 23:22 | < RichardBarrell> | Most of our existing software is written against Plone 3.3, which relies on Zope 2.10. Almost all of the rest is written directly against Zope 2.10. |
| 23:22 | < jerith> | Django 1.3 misuses something to do with autocommit, and newer psycopg2 chokes and dies during test runs because of this. |
| 23:22 | < RichardBarrell> | and Zope 2.10 has a load of really intrusive C extensions as base classes. |
| 23:24 | < jerith> | psycopg2 doesn't work at all under pypy (unless you translate pypy yourself and include the rpython port of it) and the experimental ctypes-based psycopg2 port uses the new behaviour which Django doesn't like. |
| 23:24 | < RichardBarrell> | Our best routes to switching to pypy are either a) reimplementing everything against another framework like, say, Pyramid, or b) porting our software to Plone 4 (which is a good idea anyway, it's massively faster than Plone 3.3) and then participating in the community effort to make Plone trunk run on PyPy. |
| 23:24 | < jerith> | We still have the Django ORM in our core codebase, but we're working to remove that. |
| 23:25 | < RichardBarrell> | Do ORMs do the things that I'd like to hope they do? ?_? |
| 23:25 | < jerith> | Err, what would you like to hope they do? |
| 23:26 | < jerith> | How much of the C stuff is optional performance enhancement? |
| 23:27 | < jerith> | Because in a lot of cases, pypy's JIT outperforms the C extensions. |
| 23:27 | < jerith> | (fijal recently demonstrated this with the json module in the stdlib.) |
| 23:27 | < RichardBarrell> | Let you (easily!) define arbitrary correspondences from relational schemas to object schemas, lazily issue SELECT statements to pull data, then issue UPDATE and INSERT statements at the end of your current transaction to bring your modifications to the objects back into the backing store. |
| 23:28 | < jerith> | RichardBarrell: Django's does that, within certain limitations, but it has a downside. |
| 23:28 | < RichardBarrell> | and as an addendum to "lazily issue", it's absolutely necessary for it to be possible to do that eagerly and even with manually-written SQL, sometimes. |
| 23:28 | < jerith> | It's made out of slow, held together with tardy. |
| 23:29 | < RichardBarrell> | jerith: yeah, I think that the Plone community are vaguely aware of the fact that ctypes+pypy outperforms C-extensions-as-base-class+cpython. |
| 23:29 | < RichardBarrell> | jerith: oh man I am stealing that phrase. |
| 23:29 | < RichardBarrell> | And oh MAN does that ever describe Plone 3.3. |
| 23:30 | < jerith> | No, pure Python with pypy+JIT can outperform cpython+cext. |
| 23:32 | < RichardBarrell> | That's a fun fact too, but base-classes written in cext and multiple levels of descendant classes in CPython is what the Plone community actually have. |
| 23:33 | < jerith> | How hard would it be to rewrite the base classes in Python? |
| 23:33 | < jerith> | And what kind of things are they doing that they need to be in C? |
| 23:34 | < RichardBarrell> | Not excessively. |
| 23:34 | < RichardBarrell> | It's not so much "what" as "when" |
| 23:35 | < jerith> | "And when kinds of thing [...]?" |
| 23:35 | < jerith> | Doesn't make much sense. :-P |
| 23:35 | < RichardBarrell> | They're doing a bunch of thinks putting a custom __getattr__ (which recurses up a hierarchy that's usually about 6 levels tall on average) on pretty much every single object that you pass around, which means that it's effectively as inner-loop circumstance. |
| 23:38 | < RichardBarrell> | s/thinks/things like/ (oh my Yog-sothoth, I'm turning illiterate) |
| 23:39 | < jerith> | Better type "Hastur" a few times to make sure you can get it right consistently... :-P |
| 23:40 | < RichardBarrell> | Hastur Hastur Has-AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEE |
| 23:53 | | iodriving is now known as iospace |
| --- Log closed Sat Dec 17 00:00:11 2011 |