| --- Log opened Sun Dec 18 00:00:09 2011 |
| 00:17 | < RichardBarrell> | McMartin: The concept of using Lua seems pretty odd to me when LuaJIT is available. |
| 00:18 | | * McMartin shrug |
| 00:18 | < McMartin> | Isn't that still using Lua? |
| 00:18 | < RichardBarrell> | If you're writing Lua, it's usually in the middle of a game somewhere. So you always want the fastest possible language implementation even if only to put off for as long as possible the day that you have to think about optimising the Lua scripts themselves. |
| 00:18 | < McMartin> | "So you always want the fastest possible language implementation" <- untrue |
| 00:18 | < McMartin> | Sometimes you want the smallest possible extension mechanism. |
| 00:18 | < RichardBarrell> | Yes and no. Lua-the-language makes perfect sense, Lua-the-implementation, maybe less so. |
| 00:19 | < RichardBarrell> | Yes, you're right about that. But LuaJIT's C API doesn't suck. |
| 00:20 | < McMartin> | The guy that pointed this out to me was, IIRC, targeting the Symbian among other things, so the "16KB overhead with precompiled bytecode" was the initial draw |
| 00:21 | < McMartin> | Then it was "hey, I was expecting something like shell script, but this has closures, woo" |
| 00:21 | < RichardBarrell> | oh |
| 00:21 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[t-2] |
| 00:21 | < RichardBarrell> | Sorry, I'm used to working with Plone and things like that that quite happily chew ~150MB per thread before you even start doing things with them. |
| 00:22 | < RichardBarrell> | To me, LuaJIT's rated ~220kB footprint is "free". |
| 00:22 | < McMartin> | Is LuaJIT drop-in, though? |
| 00:22 | < McMartin> | Becuase it *also* targets desktops. |
| 00:23 | < McMartin> | (This is being used to run, basically, dialog trees, though, so he may also just Not Care About Speed and be going for the smallest thing) |
| 00:23 | < RichardBarrell> | By the sound of it, more or less. |
| 00:23 | < RichardBarrell> | Smallest possible thing would be Forth. :) |
| 00:23 | < RichardBarrell> | or you can write really small Prolog implementations if you try real hard, but they don't have fantastic runtime memory usage. ;) |
| 00:25 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:27 | < RichardBarrell> | ToxicFrog, McMartin: Incidentally, pretty sure that you kids will be interested in this: I've found a new favourite blog: http://third-bit.com/blog/ |
| 00:27 | < RichardBarrell> | ToxicFrog, McMartin: and also a second one: http://www.neverworkintheory.org/ |
| 00:30 | < RichardBarrell> | The former is Greg Williams' blog, who is working as an empirical researcher into Software Engineering and seems to be doing a pretty damn good job of it. He's given a spectacular talk or two on empiricism in software engineering, here: http://vimeo.com/9270320 |
| 00:30 | < RichardBarrell> | The latter is a blog that just links to empirical SW engineering research. |
| 00:37 | | * McMartin sets about working with much less impressive languages, but hopefully with more applicable results. |
| 00:42 | < RichardBarrell> | ? |
| 00:51 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-9d19ccd5.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:54 | < McMartin> | I'm using Game Maker, and trying to turn an old Windows project that is failing to autoconvert into a functioning Web project. |
| 00:54 | < McMartin> | I'm making some progress! |
| 00:54 | < RichardBarrell> | Yay! |
| 00:56 | < McMartin> | This is really better served as a webapp anyway |
| 00:57 | | * McMartin now has a working board display. |
| 01:22 | < McMartin> | And now a working hotseat play |
| 01:22 | < McMartin> | Must have been something in the AI code that was wrecking everything. |
| 01:33 | | * Derakon goes through the Angband codebase and replaces over 500 instances of "to_[h|d]" with "to_[finesse|prowess]". |
| 01:33 | < Derakon> | I hate doing these kinds of changes. |
| 01:43 | | * McMartin now has working basic AIs, boggles. |
| 01:43 | < McMartin> | I have no real idea what could have been going wrong here during the import. |
| 01:56 | < celticminstrel> | Angband? |
| 01:59 | <~Vornicus> Der somehow got roped into rejiggering the combat code in Angband because of a silly balance error. |
| 01:59 | < Derakon> | Oh, the old system was reasonably balanced. |
| 01:59 | < Derakon> | It just didn't make any sense. |
| 02:00 | <~Vornicus> Namely that your huge, top-strength fighter is better off getting a little tiny pigsticker instead of the giant doomaxe. |
| 02:01 | < Derakon> | Only until he maxes his stats out! |
| 02:01 | < Derakon> | So, for the first half of the game or so. |
| 02:02 | | Eri [Eri@Nightstar-3e5deec3.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 02:03 | < celticminstrel> | I know I've heard this name before, but I'm not sure what it actually is. |
| 02:04 | <~Vornicus> Angband is a roguelike. |
| 02:06 | < Derakon> | The guys who made Diablo basically looked at Angband and said "This would sell well if it had graphics." |
| 02:07 | <~Vornicus> Essentially, yeah. |
| 02:07 | <~Vornicus> And it did sell well. |
| 02:53 | < Derakon> | ...man, I've missed this. |
| 02:53 | < Derakon> | Just coding away, working on a problem, oh hey it's 7PM I should really get some food. |
| 02:53 | < Derakon> | (Granted not that late, but I haven't eaten a whole lot today) |
| 02:54 | < McMartin> | Time to learn some new git tricks |
| 02:54 | < McMartin> | Also, my space bar is being recalcitrant |
| 02:56 | | * Derakon calls the local Chinese place, is told "Can you hold on a second, I'm on the phone." |
| 03:02 | < celticminstrel> | Is that just Diablo or does it apply to Diablo 2 as well? |
| 03:02 | <~Vornicus> Both really, but in D2 they kind of went away from the angband model |
| 03:07 | | * McMartin turns off his laptop, turns it upside-down, shakes vigorously |
| 03:07 | < McMartin> | Space key now behaving again. |
| 03:10 | < McMartin> | OK, you worthless gits |
| 03:10 | < McMartin> | I have received two pull requests. |
| 03:10 | < McMartin> | One of them looks like it's worth pulling. |
| 03:10 | < McMartin> | I've actually never done anything like this with git before. |
| 03:14 | < McMartin> | Aha, found a primer |
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| 03:22 | < McMartin> | HRm |
| 03:22 | < McMartin> | Bash doesn't have a way to specify "the directory that the executed shellscript is in", does it. |
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| 03:34 | <~Vornicus> You can do, um |
| 03:35 | <~Vornicus> ...no, wait, can you? Get the name of the program, which it, and then from there... |
| 03:39 | < McMartin> | which implies you're in the PATH... |
| 03:39 | < McMartin> | Hm, maybe it doesn't. |
| 03:39 | < McMartin> | That might be a neat trick. |
| 03:39 | <~Vornicus> If you give it a more qualified path it'll do that instead. |
| 03:40 | <~Vornicus> ...and I don't have a unix environment available at the moment to test. |
| 03:42 | <~Vornicus> But IIRC which will, when given a path instead of a name, hands the full path back to you? |
| 03:47 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 03:58 | < McMartin> | It looks like it does. |
| 03:58 | < McMartin> | (The issue here is that I want to have a script in a git checkout that refers to stuff in the checkout, without doing it relative to $HOME) |
| 04:06 | < RichardBarrell> | McMartin: what've you read, as far as learning Git goes? |
| 04:06 | < McMartin> | RichardBarrell: It turns out the actual answer to my question was "push this button over here" |
| 04:06 | < RichardBarrell> | :) |
| 04:07 | < McMartin> | I've scanned the man pages, though, and failed to read the official docks, and been tutored by people in here for how to actually get anything meaningful done with it. |
| 04:07 | < McMartin> | And I've also read enough of GitHub's tutorials to get a project going. |
| 04:08 | | cpux [cpux@Nightstar-c5874a39.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #code |
| 04:08 | < RichardBarrell> | I keep directing people to http://eagain.net/articles/git-for-computer-scientists/ and then https://gist.github.com/1240533 |
| 04:08 | < McMartin> | I have seen neither of these. |
| 04:08 | < McMartin> | So yay |
| 04:08 | < McMartin> | OK, the first looks like the git manual, which was useless~ |
| 04:08 | < RichardBarrell> | I can appreciate why a man-pages-first approach to learning git would be like trying to climb Everest by waggling one's ears on the ground. |
| 04:09 | < McMartin> | I don't want to know how to reimplement git, I want to know how to live in a DVCS environment. |
| 04:09 | < RichardBarrell> | I recommend it because it worked for me. |
| 04:09 | | * McMartin nods |
| 04:10 | < RichardBarrell> | The Git-for-CS explains the underlying model, which is simpler than you'd expect. Once you understand what git does, you'll always know what you want to do to the data structures |
| 04:11 | < RichardBarrell> | and you only have to read the manuals in order to figure out how to phrase the operation that you want to perform to the git command-line tools, and never to figure out what operation it is that you want to perform. |
| 04:13 | < RichardBarrell> | The latter link was part of a braindump from PloneConf this year. Some of the Plone community have been migrating to Git, and after having explained a lot of day to day practical tips over and over again, a chap called Tom Lazar gave a talk that raced through having a sane Git configuration. |
| 04:13 | < RichardBarrell> | Conference page on the talk here: http://2011ploneconference.sched.org/event/ae7a76b14a398551f4056bdc1a6128fe |
| 04:14 | < RichardBarrell> | There's a recording of the talk but it seems to be inaudible, damn. |
| 04:15 | < RichardBarrell> | His slides are linked and downloadable, assuming you can find some way to view Keynote files. |
| 04:15 | < celticminstrel> | What's a keynote file inside the bundle? |
| 04:16 | < RichardBarrell> | Keynote is Apple's slideshow program. In theory it's the same software that Steve Jobs used to use to present the Apple Keynote at whatever the Hell the iLemming conferences were called. |
| 04:17 | < celticminstrel> | I know what Keynote is. |
| 04:17 | < RichardBarrell> | Then I misunderstood your question, sorry. |
| 04:20 | < RichardBarrell> | I wonder how much faster web browsing gets if you blacklist google-analytics.com? *fiddles with /etc/hosts* |
| 04:20 | < celticminstrel> | I was assuming it was a bundle rather than a single file and wondering what's in the bundle... that said, it could be that it's not a bundle. |
| 04:20 | < celticminstrel> | . |
| 04:20 | < RichardBarrell> | It's a single file. To be specific, a ZIP file. |
| 04:21 | < RichardBarrell> | Apparently OS X will treat zip files identically to bundle directories under some circumstances? I have no idea. |
| 04:23 | < celticminstrel> | Not to my knowledge. |
| 04:23 | < McMartin> | Not at the Finder or Darwin levels, at any rate. |
| 04:54 | < McMartin> | w00t |
| 04:54 | | * McMartin figured out what was making the import fail. |
| 04:55 | | * McMartin gets around that, and will now finish this project translation and then go file a bug report. |
| 05:07 | <~Vornicus> (Keynote is also, apparently, what Al Gore used for An Inconvenient Truth) |
| 05:08 | < Alek> | actually, Windows can do that too, RB. |
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| 05:09 | < McMartin> | SUCCESS. |
| 05:10 | < McMartin> | https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/Inv5/ |
| 05:10 | < McMartin> | Still needed: proper graphics, actual UI for main menu. |
| 05:12 | | * Derakon gets obliterated. |
| 05:13 | | * McMartin did in fact implement a proper minimax AI for it and worked out board weights with a tournament of robots. |
| 05:13 | < McMartin> | (Brainless AI will play randomly, and Beginner AI is basically zero-ply) |
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| 05:16 | < Derakon> | I was playing the Novice AI. |
| 05:16 | < McMartin> | Novice is a 2-ply minimax. |
| 05:16 | < Derakon> | It took me about half the game to figure out what was going on and start not making stupid mistakes. |
| 05:16 | < McMartin> | Also on the list: put it on a webpage with instructions, rules, etc~ |
| 05:16 | < McMartin> | (It's Othello on a hex grid though) |
| 05:16 | < Derakon> | Yes, I got that eventually. |
| 05:20 | < Derakon> | Beginner is much more my speed. |
| 05:20 | < McMartin> | You can also set AIs against one another and watch. |
| 05:22 | < RichardBarrell> | Fuck Othello. |
| 05:22 | < RichardBarrell> | McMartin: implement an AI that just makes random moves? It's about the only thing that I'd be able to compete against ;) |
| 05:22 | < McMartin> | That's the "Brainless AI". |
| 05:23 | < RichardBarrell> | Ah. |
| 05:23 | < RichardBarrell> | How about an AI that minimaxes with its success criterion inverted? :) |
| 05:23 | | * Vornicus lost to it. |
| 05:23 | < McMartin> | Brainless is random, Beginner just does whatever move gives it the most immediate benefit ("Mr. Grabby"), and the others are Minimaxes. |
| 05:23 | < McMartin> | Vornicus: It's worth noting that Brainless pretty regularly beats Beginner. |
| 05:24 | < McMartin> | Beginner keeps trapping Brainless into moves that capture huge swathes of the board, or ends up forcing Brainless to take stronghold hexes. |
| 05:24 | < Derakon> | Aw, I lost to Beginner. |
| 05:25 | < Derakon> | The problem with leading in the midgame is that you turn out to have lots of vulnerabilities in the endgame. |
| 05:25 | < Derakon> | Strongholds = corners? |
| 05:25 | < Kindamoody> | Haha, I just lost 33-39, I thought it'd be much worse. ^^ |
| 05:25 | < McMartin> | Corners or hexes with continuous lines in all directions of your color to corners or edges. |
| 05:26 | < McMartin> | This also means that hexes *adjacent* to corners are liabilities. |
| 05:48 | < Derakon> | I beat Beginner. \o/ |
| 05:50 | < celticminstrel> | Alek: Windows does it. Mac does not. |
| 05:51 | <~Vornicus> WIndows sort of does it |
| 05:51 | <~Vornicus> Inside a zip file you don't get the full suite of shell tools. |
| 05:51 | <~Vornicus> YOu also cannot actually cd inside them. |
| 05:51 | < celticminstrel> | I was thinking in the Explorer. <_< |
| 05:57 | < RichardBarrell> | There's a Linux kernel patch hanging around somewhere on the intertubes which implements 'cd' into zip archives. |
| 05:57 | < RichardBarrell> | It's really quite alarmingly scary. |
| 05:57 | < McMartin> | That requires a kernel patch? |
| 05:57 | | * McMartin would have thought that a "mere" fs patch would do. |
| 05:58 | < RichardBarrell> | Sure. The filesystems are all in the kernel. |
| 05:58 | < RichardBarrell> | You could do it with a FUSE fs, but this one wasn't. |
| 05:59 | < McMartin> | Oh right |
| 05:59 | | * McMartin keeps forgetting that FUSE isn't the norm >_> |
| 05:59 | < McMartin> | (Windows is a weird corner case in this classification. They're in the kernel space but they're designed to be absurdly modular, pluggable, and layerable.) |
| 06:00 | < RichardBarrell> | I don't know that they are a particularly odd spot. FreeBSD's 'vfs' layer is also strongly pluggable and layerable. |
| 06:01 | < RichardBarrell> | I don't know much about how Linux implements filesystems, but they sure as Heck don't end up with pieces of bus-mouse driver in them. ;) |
| 06:01 | < McMartin> | Heh |
| 06:01 | < RichardBarrell> | Is it just me or is Google now completely useless? |
| 06:02 | < McMartin> | Not *completely* useless, but it does seem to be correctly indexing the exponentially increasing amount of bullshit in the world. |
| 06:02 | < McMartin> | Also it wants to replace Facebook so I have to only use it through intermediaries. |
| 06:03 | < RichardBarrell> | That would explain why I have less and less luck with Google on each successive attempt to use it. |
| 06:04 | < RichardBarrell> | It is singularly grating when I actually *know* what the thing I'm searching for is, and even half-remember the URL to it is, but I still just get pages and pages of copypasta bot trash instead. |
| 06:06 | < RichardBarrell> | This might have been the article. http://kerneltrap.org/Linux/Shadow_Directories |
| 06:06 | < celticminstrel> | Sorry, why is Google useless? |
| 06:07 | < RichardBarrell> | Because I drop in a query like "zip files as directories" and I get nowt but mirrors of zip(1)'s man page. |
| 06:11 | < RichardBarrell> | celticminstrel: admittedly I may just be whining, but I have clear memories of, in the past, being able to find web pages written and curated by human beings rather than auto-generated by stupid bots much more easily. |
| 06:25 | < McMartin> | Derakon: Had you been running that in Safari, btw? |
| 06:27 | < Derakon> | No, Firefox. |
| 06:28 | | * McMartin files his eighth bug with YoYo. |
| 06:32 | < celticminstrel> | YoYo? That has something to do with Game Maker, right? |
| 06:33 | <~Vornicus> they're the makers of gamemaker, yes |
| 06:33 | < McMartin> | Yes, I wrote Hex Inverter in GM8:HTML5 edition. |
| 06:34 | < McMartin> | In particular, my minimax AI did something that reliably caused their JS code generator to produce invalid JS. |
| 06:34 | | * McMartin isolated that into a one-line GML script and filed. |
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| 10:30 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 10:41 | < McMartin> | Hey, Watcher. |
| 10:41 | | * McMartin finished a Sekrit Projekt today |
| 10:41 | < McMartin> | https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/Inv5/ |
| 10:41 | | * TheWatcher goeslook |
| 10:44 | < TheWatcher> | Hey, that's pretty neat! I'm also apparently lousy at the game ;) |
| 10:45 | < McMartin> | Next steps: proper UI, proper graphics, instructions |
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| 12:54 | < jerith> | McMartin: Shiny. |
| 12:58 | < TheWatcher> | I am getting busy looping from it - seems to like sitting at 100% on one processor - but that's probably Game MAker's fault |
| 13:00 | < McMartin> | Still a little weird; I should be setting alarms (albeit at 30 FPS) |
| 13:01 | < McMartin> | What's your OS/browser? |
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| 13:01 | < McMartin> | Hmm. |
| 13:02 | < McMartin> | I'm seeing that at the title screen on Win7/FF8 but not in the game baord. |
| 13:02 | < McMartin> | (Which is using half the CPU of the title screen) |
| 13:02 | < McMartin> | Sometimes much less |
| 13:03 | < TheWatcher> | Opera 11.6 on windows and linux |
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| 13:05 | < McMartin> | Something's definitely Up with the title screen |
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| 13:09 | < TheWatcher> | Oogh, holy minimised javascript, Batman. |
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| 13:15 | < McMartin> | Yeah, it's autogenerated. |
| 13:16 | < McMartin> | I suspect the cost comes either from the font shadows (which is apparently very memory-intensive, inefficient, and doesn't work in local copies) or that the title screen takes keyboard focus. |
| 13:16 | < McMartin> | I intend on removing the latter in the final product, and there are easy ways to optimize the shadow effect. |
| 13:16 | < McMartin> | So those are both worthwhile avenues. |
| 13:19 | < McMartin> | (Also fun: to get this to work, I had to track down a bug in their code generator and how to work around it) |
| 13:20 | < TheWatcher> | Fun >.< Well done. |
| 13:20 | < McMartin> | Still, even in its 1.0 state where only the lunatic fringe or the people bribed to help beta will use it (o/) it shows promise as a Flash-killer |
| 13:20 | < McMartin> | I paid something like $60 for the toolkit, which is Noticably Cheaper Than Flash. |
| 13:20 | < McMartin> | (This is the latest iteration of the Iji engine) |
| 13:24 | < McMartin> | Also, I totally implemented co-routines in their internal scripting language. |
| 13:24 | < McMartin> | From a coding standpoint this was all very demoscene >_> |
| 13:24 | <@Namegduf> | Awesome. |
| 13:27 | < TheWatcher> | Given that a new Flash license is $700 that's more than "noticably cheaper" ;) |
| 13:27 | < McMartin> | TheWatcher: Yeah, I was willing to forgive a lot at that price |
| 13:28 | < McMartin> | And it's fast enough to do actual action games, too. |
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| 17:38 | < gnolam> | Hmm. Are the spammers taking an early Christmas vacation, or has Gmail upgraded its spam filters? |
| 17:38 | < gnolam> | I only have 13 items in my spam folder. |
| 17:39 | < Jasever> | I have 127 items in Spam. |
| 17:40 | < TheWatcher> | grep -c "550-Rejecting" /var/log/mail/current gives me 25. Usually it would be 1000 times that by this point. |
| 17:40 | | * celticminstrel has 2, apparently. |
| 17:40 | < celticminstrel> | One of which isn't. |
| 17:42 | < celticminstrel> | (It's a "failed to deliver" message. Perhaps it was routed to spam because it's for a message I didn't actually send. However, it's a standard Google Docs "something has been shared", so I don't think it qualifies as spam.) |
| 17:42 | < gnolam> | I can't remember a time it's fallen below 1/day before. |
| 17:43 | < celticminstrel> | My school Gmail has 64 spam. |
| 17:43 | < celticminstrel> | Wonder why that one has so much more... |
| 17:43 | < TheWatcher> | I can. I think the last time was in '96... |
| 17:56 | | iospace is now known as io|PACKERS |
| 18:15 | | cpux is now known as cpux[YEAH_TOAST] |
| 18:48 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 18:53 | | cpux[YEAH_TOAST] is now known as cpux |
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| 19:26 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 19:39 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-14eb6405.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #code |
| 19:43 | | cpux is now known as cpux[Skyrim] |
| 19:57 | | Jasever is now known as AnnoDomini |
| 19:57 | | Anna is now known as Ling |
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| 21:04 | | io|PACKERS is now known as io|T_T |
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| 22:34 | | Syloqs_AFH is now known as Syloqs-AFH |
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| 22:36 | | cpux[Skyrim] is now known as cpux |
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| 22:49 | | io|T_T is now known as iospace |
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| 23:04 | | Syloqs_AFH is now known as Syloqs-AFH |
| 23:20 | | cpux|2 [cpux@Nightstar-c5874a39.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #code |
| 23:21 | | cpux [cpux@Nightstar-c5874a39.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
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| 23:43 | | cpux|2 is now known as cpux |
| --- Log closed Mon Dec 19 00:00:20 2011 |