| --- Log opened Fri Jul 09 00:00:45 2010 |
| 00:09 | | Tarinaky [Tarinaky@Nightstar-f349ca6d.plus.com] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 00:14 | <@Vornicus> | Works for me. |
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| 04:18 | | * McMartin boots up a VM with his modified device drivers in it, crosses fingers |
| 04:18 | <@Derakon> | I think both our jobs can be pretty cool sometimes~ |
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| 04:32 | <@Derakon> | Is Zeek Brusband or Cute Coworker? |
| 04:32 | <@Derakon> | Mischan. |
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| 11:12 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by Reiver |
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| 13:41 | < gnolam> | http://qdb.us/95266 |
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| 22:06 | < celticminstrel> | Why is there still no Mac-native GIMP? |
| 22:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Because everyone uses photoshop, of course~ |
| 22:13 | <@McMartin> | Because GIMP developers are actively opposed to usable UIs |
| 22:18 | | * Vornicus eyes maufactoria, which apparently has recently updated. |
| 22:19 | <@Vornicus> | There is now a thing in here called "the malevolence engine" |
| 22:19 | <@Vornicus> | It apparently does lots and lots and lots of tests. |
| 22:19 | <@McMartin> | Heh |
| 22:20 | <@Vornicus> | REMEMBER: THE MALEVOLENCE ENGINE GUARDS YOU FROM ERROR |
| 22:22 | <@Derakon> | Is it a new program you have to write, or a new test suite for all programs? |
| 22:25 | <@Vornicus> | A new test suite for all programs. |
| 22:25 | <@Vornicus> | THE MALEVOLENCE ENGINE SEES ALL WEAKNESS |
| 22:25 | <@Vornicus> | (apparently my seraphim implementation fails for bbgb) |
| 22:27 | <@Vornicus> | (...because it doesn't actually check the first one to see if there's anything left after finding an empty second. fixed.) |
| 22:28 | <@Vornicus> | And Ophanim is still wrong, sigh |
| 22:34 | < celticminstrel> | I noticed the malevolenve engine recently when I did the subtraction one. |
| 22:34 | < celticminstrel> | ^malevolence |
| 22:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | A better test suite for Manufactoria? Sign me up. |
| 22:35 | < celticminstrel> | Isn't GTK-Quartz supposed to be for making GTK programs like GIMP Mac-native? |
| 22:37 | <@Derakon> | Celtic: IIRC you should largely just be able to recompile GIMP to run in X11 without any significant amount of work, if nothing else. |
| 22:37 | <@Vornicus> | That's the thing, it runs in X11 as it is. |
| 22:37 | <@Vornicus> | But that /freaking blows/ |
| 22:37 | <@Derakon> | Mind you, I don't think it's possible to make the GIMP adhere to Apple's HMI guidelines. |
| 22:37 | <@Derakon> | (HMI == Human-Machine Interface) |
| 22:38 | <@AnnoDomini> | Hmm. Would it be possible to make an UI program using Java, and another program doing the actual math in C++, and have them communicate at some level? Like, a text console in the Java application that shows what's happening in the backend that has a console interface only? |
| 22:38 | <@Derakon> | AD: yeah, you could do that. |
| 22:38 | <@McMartin> | It would be possible, but you're probably better off just using a decent C++ UI library like Qt or a GTK wrapper |
| 22:38 | <@Derakon> | Probably want to use ports for interprocess communication instead of a console or text file. |
| 22:38 | < celticminstrel> | I despise X11. |
| 22:39 | < celticminstrel> | I wouldn't mind having my menus in the windows if I could at least a) isolate GIMP as an application rather than having it filed under the X11 application and b) use command-key shortcuts instead of control-key shortcuts. |
| 22:39 | <@AnnoDomini> | McMartin: Well, the thing is, I'm already familiar with how Java works, for the most part; I'd have to learn Qt or GTK from scratch. |
| 22:39 | <@Derakon> | Is that so bad~? |
| 22:39 | < Tarinaky> | Would it not be possible to just code the whole program in Java? |
| 22:40 | <@AnnoDomini> | Tarinaky: If I wanted to wait a millennium for my results. |
| 22:40 | <@AnnoDomini> | I don't have a box with hardware that has Java assembly. |
| 22:41 | < Tarinaky> | I'm repeatedly informed that Java's speed isn't that bad these days. |
| 22:41 | <@Derakon> | What kind of work do you need to do that you're thinking of invoking C++? |
| 22:41 | <@Derakon> | You might well be able to use something like Python+Numpy instead. |
| 22:41 | <@AnnoDomini> | Derakon: Genetic algorithm. |
| 22:41 | < celticminstrel> | If it's really a problem, why don't you just write a Java class in C? |
| 22:42 | < celticminstrel> | Instead of two separate programs. |
| 22:42 | <@AnnoDomini> | Java class in C. I don't understand. |
| 22:42 | < celticminstrel> | Java Native Interface. |
| 22:42 | <@McMartin> | JNI |
| 22:43 | <@AnnoDomini> | Never heard about it. |
| 22:43 | <@Vornicus> | Java speed really isn't bad these days. |
| 22:44 | <@Vornicus> | Startup is still hell though |
| 22:45 | < celticminstrel> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JNI |
| 22:46 | <@AnnoDomini> | Vornicus: I don't want to write my program, and then realize that it will never run fast enough to be useful. I'd rather just write it in C or C++, because it *is* faster than Java and I can probably do it. |
| 22:47 | <@AnnoDomini> | The only problem is the UI, where text interface probably won't do. |
| 22:48 | <@Vornicus> | How fast does this thing need to /be/, if you're that worried about language /now/ |
| 22:49 | <@AnnoDomini> | I don't know. My advisor, who does these kinds of things for a living, told me that speed is probably going to be a problem. |
| 22:49 | <@McMartin> | Prototype first in a language you know |
| 22:51 | <@Vornicus> | With any luck that language will have embedding/extending capabilities. That way if speed /does/ become a problem (and, I grant, it may, but I've never really met a situation where it really is in a real-world problem), then you can fix it when you have profile data. |
| 22:51 | <@AnnoDomini> | McMartin: Doing that. |
| 22:53 | <@Derakon> | My approach here would be to prototype in Python, and if that's too slow, then rework the slow bits in Cython. |
| 22:53 | <@Derakon> | And if that is too slow, then write a C module that interfaces with the Python and just does the relevant fast bits. |
| 22:53 | <@Derakon> | Knowing how to get two languages to talk to each other is a useful life skill in any event. |
| 22:54 | < celticminstrel> | That's exactly what JNI is for. |
| 23:04 | <@AnnoDomini> | I'll need to learn Python someday. |
| 23:06 | <@Vornicus> | It took me a week to get the basics down, and it was my first language. |
| 23:06 | <@Derakon> | It took me...a half-hour? To start writing simple programs in it. |
| 23:07 | <@Derakon> | A few hours to set up a basic PyGame program that was drawing to the screen. |
| 23:07 | <@Vornicus> | And if you need GUI, there's PyQt |
| 23:07 | <@McMartin> | The hard part of PyGame is getting the libraries installed in places where they all play well together |
| 23:07 | <@Derakon> | Mm, true, installation was a bit painful. |
| 23:08 | < Tarinaky> | I need to try and get back into my project after a good month of not looking at it :/ |
| 23:08 | <@Derakon> | That's what comments are for. |
| 23:08 | <@Derakon> | That, and a to-do list that includes a few minor items to get you back in the swing of things. |
| 23:09 | < Tarinaky> | I don't really have minor items atm :/ |
| 23:16 | < celticminstrel> | I gave up rather quickly on PyGame. |
| 23:16 | <@Derakon> | Whyfor? |
| 23:17 | < celticminstrel> | I couldn't get it to compile, or something. |
| 23:18 | <@Derakon> | Ah. |
| 23:18 | <@Derakon> | Whelp, when Jetblade eventually gets released, you should be able to hack on its components without needing to install anything~ |
| 23:18 | < celticminstrel> | Say what? |
| 23:18 | <@Derakon> | My game project. |
| 23:19 | < celticminstrel> | I don't understand. |
| 23:19 | <@Derakon> | Nontrivial parts of it are dynamically loaded, which means that the standalone executable contains Python files the user can hack on. |
| 23:19 | <@Derakon> | Part of the goal of the project is to have a program that can ease people into game development by giving them something that's easy to modify. |
| 23:19 | < celticminstrel> | I see. |
| 23:20 | < celticminstrel> | Well, in this particular case, I only really wanted it for the sound. |
| 23:20 | < celticminstrel> | If I were writing an actual game, I'd probably go with C++. |
| 23:21 | | * Tarinaky went with C++ for his. It's a bit of a looooong slog :/ |
| 23:21 | <@Derakon> | Yeah, my first game project was in C++. |
| 23:21 | < Tarinaky> | Fortunately the low-level bits are the bits I'm good at so I don't mind. |
| 23:21 | <@Derakon> | It got stalled out. |
| 23:21 | <@Derakon> | (It was also horribly overambitious, while Jetblade is merely overambitious) |
| 23:22 | < Tarinaky> | I don't think mine's too bad atm. I just need to get back to it. |
| 23:22 | < Tarinaky> | I'm currently trying to work out how to 'do' character sheets. |
| 23:22 | < Tarinaky> | Both in terms of backend and UI. |
| 23:22 | < celticminstrel> | SDL is decent enough, and wxWidgets seems to work; I even got a game mostly working with SDL. (By "mostly", I mainly mean the physics are a bit off.) |
| 23:22 | <@Derakon> | Ergh WX. |
| 23:22 | <@Derakon> | I have to use it at work. |
| 23:22 | < Tarinaky> | SDL is pretty sweet. |
| 23:22 | <@Derakon> | I would really rather not. |
| 23:23 | <@Derakon> | Physics requires a fair amount of work to get it to do what you want, in my experience. |
| 23:23 | < Tarinaky> | wx makes the baby Tux cry. |
| 23:23 | < celticminstrel> | Admittedly I haven't used wxWidgets enough to determine just how good it is, and I haven't used anything else (other than Swing) that I could compare it to. |
| 23:23 | < celticminstrel> | I do recall having some minor annoyances with wxWidgets, though I can't remember what they were. |
| 23:24 | < Tarinaky> | wx makes heavy use of macros which put my off no-end. |
| 23:24 | < Tarinaky> | *put me off |
| 23:24 | < celticminstrel> | Yeah, that's slightly annoying, but I don't really mind that much. |
| 23:25 | < Tarinaky> | I've had some success with gtkmm. |
| 23:26 | < Tarinaky> | Which has the advantage of being C++ while most of these libraries are only C. |
| 23:27 | < celticminstrel> | wxWidgets is C++ |
| 23:28 | < celticminstrel> | SDL, sadly, is C. |
| 23:28 | < Tarinaky> | SDL is pretty straight forward though even though it's C. |
| 23:28 | < Tarinaky> | SDL does one thing very well. |
| 23:28 | < celticminstrel> | Yeah, it's not that hard to use. |
| 23:28 | < Tarinaky> | So I don't really count it when talking about UIs. |
| 23:29 | < Tarinaky> | Since you need to BYO GUI |
| 23:29 | < celticminstrel> | It's not a GUI, no. |
| 23:30 | < Tarinaky> | But if you're making a linux game it's an obvious choice for graphical output. |
| 23:30 | < celticminstrel> | I'd say it's an obvious choice regardless of platform. |
| 23:31 | < celticminstrel> | Assuming of course that you don't care about having a native UI. |
| 23:31 | < Tarinaky> | I've no experience with Dx. |
| 23:31 | < celticminstrel> | Dx? DirectX? |
| 23:31 | < Tarinaky> | Yeah. |
| 23:31 | < celticminstrel> | Nor do I. |
| 23:31 | < Tarinaky> | I presume there's a reason most Windows development uses Dx rather than SDL. |
| 23:32 | < celticminstrel> | Probably just because it's the "native library" or some such nonsense. |
| 23:32 | < Tarinaky> | That and the fact it's better developed than OpenGL. |
| 23:32 | < celticminstrel> | Is it? |
| 23:32 | < Tarinaky> | I think OpenGL stalled years ago. |
| 23:32 | < celticminstrel> | Really? Huh. |
| 23:32 | < Tarinaky> | At least in terms of new features. |
| 23:33 | < Tarinaky> | It used to be that OpenGL was better than Dx... |
| 23:33 | < celticminstrel> | Well, maybe it doesn't need new features. Though, admittedly, that's a little hard to believe. |
| 23:33 | < Tarinaky> | Then Microsoft threw money at the problem and it went away. |
| 23:33 | < celticminstrel> | OpenGL is better simply because it's portable. |
| 23:33 | < Tarinaky> | That only matters if you care. |
| 23:33 | < celticminstrel> | True. |
| 23:33 | < Tarinaky> | Most commercial 3D development has enough trouble getting their product to run on one platform reliably for deadline. |
| 23:34 | | Derakon [Derakon@Nightstar-1ffd02e6.ucsf.edu] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 23:34 | < Tarinaky> | Never mind 3. |
| 23:34 | < Tarinaky> | *one PC platform |
| 23:39 | <@McMartin> | OpenGL has advanced a lot. |
| 23:39 | <@McMartin> | It was stalled for awhile, but DX is now the fractured platform |
| 23:40 | <@McMartin> | Since DX 9, 10, and 11 are all different (9/10 is hugely different) and they have different min-OS requirements |
| 23:43 | < Tarinaky> | They still have the Xbox to ram it home though. |
| 23:43 | < Tarinaky> | It's, at least, a linear progression. |
| 23:44 | < Tarinaky> | DirectX9 doesn't exist. DirectX11 has existed forever. We have always been at war with Eurasia. |
| 23:44 | | * Tarinaky waves his hands like a Jedi. |
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| --- Log closed Sat Jul 10 00:00:47 2010 |