| --- Log opened Wed Oct 22 00:00:52 2008 |
| 00:09 | | * Consul wonders about video file to DVD authoring-like programs on Fedora 9... |
| 00:09 | < Consul> | I usually used Tovid before, but that one's not in the list. |
| 00:09 | < Consul> | So before I go hunting for it, I might as well see if there are other options. |
| 00:09 | | * gnolam vomits bile. |
| 00:10 | < Consul> | Well, it did work. |
| 00:10 | < Consul> | It would be nice if something out there used VLC for transcoding, since I know that can read every video file I have on my system. |
| 00:10 | <@gnolam> | Not that. Software Engineering Theory. :P |
| 00:10 | < Consul> | oh |
| 00:11 | <@gnolam> | I.e. "How to be a Good Corporate Drone" |
| 00:11 | <@gnolam> | Or "Bullshit Theory" |
| 00:13 | < Consul> | Heh |
| 00:13 | <@gnolam> | Now, don't get me wrong - it's good to have a theoretical framework. |
| 00:13 | < Consul> | The name makes it sound like one of those fundamental comp-sci classes I don't have under my belt. |
| 00:13 | <@gnolam> | And there's a kernel of good stuff in there. But like usability theory, it's bogged down in charlatanry and ex recto bullshit. |
| 00:14 | < Consul> | Like "data structures" or somesuch. |
| 00:18 | <@gnolam> | And it attracts the kind of people who worship the Gods of Acronyms at the Altar of Powerpoint. |
| 00:18 | < Consul> | heh |
| 00:18 | < Consul> | TLA for the WIN :-) |
| 00:24 | <@gnolam> | They're more for ETLAs, actually. |
| 00:25 | <@McMartin> | AFGNCAAP |
| 00:25 | < Shoukanjuu> | ......what. |
| 00:26 | < Shoukanjuu> | I remember seeing that somewhere, where it was said to be pronounced "Afghan-cap" |
| 00:26 | <@McMartin> | Yes |
| 00:26 | <@McMartin> | It's the cipher protagonist of most first-person games. |
| 00:27 | <@McMartin> | "Ageless, Faceless, Gender Neutral, Culturally Ambiguous Adventure Person" |
| 00:27 | < Shoukanjuu> | Ah, that's right. I saw it on TVTropes. |
| 00:27 | <@McMartin> | It's actually from the Zork series. |
| 00:28 | | * Vornicus fiddles, tries to figure out exactly what this other stuff is. I don't see any other monster data! :( |
| 00:28 | < Shoukanjuu> | ooh. Oldschool. |
| 00:28 | < Shoukanjuu> | Vorn: Is it compressed? |
| 00:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Consul: yum search dvd | less? |
| 00:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | zypper suggests: devede, dvdstyler, dvdwizard, gany2dvd, gdvdcreator |
| 00:31 | < Vornicus> | Shou: I don't think so, actually. |
| 00:31 | < Vornicus> | Because there's much larger data that is /not/ compressed. |
| 00:31 | < Vornicus> | That would be a perfect candidate. |
| 00:32 | <@gnolam> | "Requires paradigm shift to give full advantage" |
| 00:32 | | * gnolam shudders, then vomits bile out of his /ears/. |
| 00:34 | < Vornicus> | (specifically: there are 2kb of data that's a big bitmask that's map concealment, that is a perfect candidate for RLE. Then there's 16kb of map data that's better off as a diff from the (static) world map. |
| 00:34 | <@gnolam> | What game are you talking about, BTW? |
| 00:35 | < Vornicus> | (the monster data, on the other hand, is no more than 15 bytes per monster, and there's only about a hundred of them in the whole game) |
| 00:35 | < Vornicus> | King's Bounty. |
| 00:36 | < Vornicus> | the 1990 original, that is |
| 00:36 | < Vornicus> | ...unless... |
| 00:37 | < Vornicus> | what if the monster data doesn't exist, and it only saves monsters if you lose to them? |
| 00:37 | < Vornicus> | ...ng. More than that |
| 00:38 | < Consul> | I have Devede, but I was really hoping for something as simple as Nero's software: open it up, select some video files, order them, make a menu, and burn. |
| 00:39 | < Consul> | Oh, hey, maybe Devede will do it after all... |
| 00:40 | < Consul> | I didn't see that button there the first time... |
| 00:41 | <@Attilla> | Hmm. In C you cannot have a function have two or more outputs, can you? |
| 00:42 | <@gnolam> | You can if you wrap it in a structure, or return a pointer to an array. |
| 00:42 | <@gnolam> | But yeah, the C definition of a function is pretty much analogous to the mathematical one. |
| 00:42 | <@McMartin> | Standard practice is pass output pointers as arguments. |
| 00:42 | <@McMartin> | And then write through them. |
| 00:43 | <@gnolam> | Yup. |
| 00:43 | <@McMartin> | Instead of, for instance, a ReduceFraction command: |
| 00:43 | <@McMartin> | (int, int) reduce (int n, int d); |
| 00:43 | <@McMartin> | It would instead be: |
| 00:43 | <@McMartin> | void reduce(int n, int d, int *out_n, int *out_d); |
| 00:43 | <@McMartin> | (or possibly returning an int which is nonzero if the values changed) |
| 00:43 | <@Attilla> | This involves void? |
| 00:44 | <@McMartin> | Well, no, it would then be int reduce(etc) |
| 00:45 | <@gnolam> | And when you return a variable number of items (through a pointer), standard practice is to use the return value of the function to denote how many you just returned. |
| 00:45 | <@gnolam> | E.g. int Factorize(int n, int *factors); |
| 00:46 | <@gnolam> | Attilla: it's probably easier if you just tell us exactly what you want to do. :) |
| 00:47 | <@McMartin> | gnolam: Factorize needs one more argument to indicate the maximum number you may safely write. |
| 00:47 | <@gnolam> | I'm assuming an internal malloc and unlimited memory. ;) |
| 00:47 | <@McMartin> | In that case it needs to be int **factors. |
| 00:47 | <@McMartin> | But yeah, that too would work. |
| 00:48 | <@Attilla> | Well i'm just trying to move a mathematical function into a function, but there are two similar ones that I want to move into the same function for efficiency's sake, plus they have the same original data and are just different manipulations of it. |
| 00:48 | <@McMartin> | Something like reduce is the template you want. |
| 00:49 | <@Attilla> | But you seem to be hinting with your use of pointers that this cannot be accomplished with the return function? |
| 00:49 | <@McMartin> | It cannot be conveniently accomplished with the return statement. |
| 00:49 | <@McMartin> | It can if you add typedefs, but this is widely considered poor practice |
| 00:51 | <@gnolam> | McMartin: err, true that. Sleep deprived. |
| 00:52 | | * gnolam looks at all the ethnically diverse powerpoint stock footage and starts vomiting intestines. |
| 00:52 | | * Vornicus fiddles. He doesn't know what data he needs to mangle to experiment with, so there's nothing he can do yet. |
| 00:55 | <@gnolam> | And pie charts. God, the pie charts. |
| 00:56 | < Shoukanjuu> | I have this funny graph that depicts the learning curve of Dwarf Fortress compared to other popular games. |
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| 00:57 | <@gnolam> | And /two/ lose/loose mistakes just in this slide collection. |
| 00:58 | <@gnolam> | One more and I start loading the elk hunting rifle. |
| 00:58 | | * Vornicus ...needs a bindiff. |
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| 01:06 | | * gnolam needs a whisky. |
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| 01:46 | <@gnolam> | Gah. I think this sets a new standard for boredom in a computer science-related subject. |
| 01:47 | <@gnolam> | When, whenever you look up from the text, your eyes wander to either the gun cabinet or the liquor cabinet, that's a /bad/ sign. |
| 01:49 | < Shoukanjuu> | XD |
| 01:49 | | * Vornicus discovers the location of own-army critters. |
| 01:51 | <@Reiver> | ? |
| 01:51 | <@Reiver> | Oh, nice |
| 01:53 | | * Vornicus is slowly whittling away the bits he can recognize. |
| 01:54 | < Shoukanjuu> | When I was muckign about in the stuff for Radiant Dawn's character data, a lot of it was compressed |
| 01:54 | < Shoukanjuu> | However, the compression...left alot of the units' data out |
| 01:54 | < Shoukanjuu> | so it took me a while to realize that it was actually compressed |
| 01:54 | < Shoukanjuu> | Because it didn't look like it for a while o_O |
| 01:55 | < Shoukanjuu> | That's why I thought to ask if it were compressed ^^; |
| 01:59 | <@gnolam> | Hmm. |
| 01:59 | <@gnolam> | No, I'm not hallucinating. |
| 02:00 | < Vornicus> | ?? |
| 02:00 | <@gnolam> | This PowerPoint slide really /does/ list "Hostage taking" as a goal. |
| 02:00 | < Shoukanjuu> | what XD |
| 02:01 | | * Vornicus eyes. Two spots for current position? |
| 02:01 | <@gnolam> | "Systematic inspections |
| 02:01 | <@gnolam> | The best way of finding many defects in code and other documents. |
| 02:01 | <@gnolam> | Experimentally proven in replicated studies |
| 02:01 | <@gnolam> | Goals: |
| 02:01 | <@gnolam> | * Find defects |
| 02:01 | <@gnolam> | * Training |
| 02:01 | <@gnolam> | * Communications |
| 02:01 | <@gnolam> | * Hostage taking" |
| 02:03 | | * gnolam tok tok toks. |
| 02:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | heheh |
| 02:13 | | * ToxicFrog eyes Front Mission curiously |
| 02:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | There seems to be no reason to ever use anything but missiles and grenades. |
| 02:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Missiles: sharply limited ammo, but outrange everything else and do huge damage; Grenades: infinite ammo, longest range of everything but missiles, damage comparable to machine guns/rifles. |
| 02:17 | | * Vornicus finds... a peasant dwelling, finds its data next to a whole bunch of line noise. |
| 02:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yay! Line noise! |
| 02:19 | < Vornicus> | I'm dealing with a whole bunch of things that have mostly one-byte representations. |
| 02:24 | <@Reiver> | #DuelField,#Fleet,#Kiwi FUCK YOU, UNIVERSE. Thank you so much. Because what I really needed today was a hot water cylinder leak. >.< |
| 02:25 | < Vornicus> | :( |
| 02:29 | < Vornicus> | Hm. Okay, fighting there changed a number from 4 to 1. I don't know what the number was. |
| 02:39 | | * Vornicus declares befuddlement. |
| 02:51 | < Vornicus> | Okay, those are map mask changes, that's map view changes (good god, it keeps track of critters by /changing the world map as they go/)... |
| 02:52 | < Vornicus> | These two look like changes to the monster data, but there's only two and there should be three or six... |
| 03:05 | | mode/#code [+M] by Reiver |
| 03:14 | <@gnolam> | Hmm. To sleep or not, that is the question. |
| 03:15 | | * Vornicus has no idea how to interpret this. |
| 03:15 | <@Reiver> | Three or six what, Vorn? |
| 03:16 | < Vornicus> | Three or six changes to the data file. |
| 03:16 | < Vornicus> | an enemy in this game has three armies. |
| 03:18 | < Vornicus> | So there should be three changes (either removing all three army types, or all three army counts) to the data. |
| 03:18 | < Vornicus> | or six, which is both. |
| 03:19 | < Vornicus> | ...wait, what if it's an offse... no, that would place it firmly in the map mask. |
| 03:19 | | * Reiver eyes. Ponders. |
| 03:19 | <@Reiver> | You say they also store units in the map mask, yes? |
| 03:19 | < Vornicus> | No. |
| 03:19 | < Vornicus> | The map mask is a bitmap. |
| 03:19 | <@Reiver> | okay |
| 03:20 | < Vornicus> | Army /locations/, sort of, are stored in the world map, which is much larger - one byte per square instead of one bit, so it's 16k to the mask's 2k. |
| 03:20 | <@Reiver> | aha |
| 03:20 | < Vornicus> | But the world map has a bunch of 0x91s in it where monster are. |
| 03:21 | < Vornicus> | And as they move around or are defeated, they disappear. |
| 03:21 | <@Reiver> | Fair |
| 03:21 | < Vornicus> | well, or move. |
| 03:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'd guess it's something like low three bits terrain type, high five bytes object index? |
| 03:22 | < Vornicus> | This is, in modern parlance, The Wrong Way To Do It. |
| 03:23 | < Vornicus> | ToxicFrog: Nope. |
| 03:24 | | mode/#code [+oooooo Consul crem_ EvilDarkLord GeekSoldier Shoukanjuu Vash[Maid]] by Vornicus |
| 03:24 | | mode/#code [+ov Vornicus DiceBot] by Vornicus |
| 03:24 | <@Vornicus> | http://vorn.dyndns.org/~vorn/kb_remake/continentia.png <--- this is the first continent. |
| 03:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, how do you derive that? |
| 03:25 | <@Vornicus> | The x's are locations of bad guys; they can move only onto other green squares - well, specifically, only green squares that are 0x00 -- this excludes all castle front yards and three specific squares near the castle in the southwest. |
| 03:26 | <@Vornicus> | That's direct rip from the game, made into an image using a bunch of 8x8 images each corresponding to one particular byte in the map. |
| 03:27 | | * Reiver scratches his head. He is getting a set of numbers, f.ex 27.33. This represents 27, with a 33% chance of being 28. |
| 03:27 | <@Reiver> | How would I get excel to do the math for me? |
| 03:27 | <@Vornicus> | 0x91 is "monster", and all the monsters in the savegame's version of the map are also that byte. |
| 03:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | How does it know which monster? |
| 03:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or does it randomly generate when you bump into it? |
| 03:28 | <@Vornicus> | TF: I don't know, actually. |
| 03:29 | <@Vornicus> | ...actually, that's probably the right track... |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | What are your options when you bump into a monster? Do you have to fight? |
| 03:30 | <@Vornicus> | Fight, and retreat. ...and I think I figured it out. |
| 03:30 | <@Vornicus> | I thought the numbers I was looking at were monster types - they're in the right range, but they're 06 and 0a... |
| 03:31 | <@Vornicus> | and my current position, after being attacked by them, is 07 09 |
| 03:31 | <@Vornicus> | And that happens to be just southeast of 06 0a, which is where the monster started. |
| 03:31 | <@Vornicus> | Which means that it garbages monsters by clearing its position. |
| 03:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you retreat and then re-engage, do they have the same composition? |
| 03:32 | <@Vornicus> | Yes. |
| 03:33 | <@Vornicus> | I do /not/ know whether they would have a different composition if I savescummed the first encounter, but I suspect so. Let me see if I can divine the structure there. |
| 03:33 | | * Reiver hopes you're writing this stuff down. |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, so that means they aren't randomly generated when you bump into them. |
| 03:33 | <@Vornicus> | I am indeed writing it down. |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | So it needs some way of mapping that 0x91 to monster composition |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which in turn implies to me that you are looking at the tile map, not the object map |
| 03:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Somewhere else is the army data itself, containing monster types and army coordinates, from which the tile map is built. |
| 03:34 | <@Vornicus> | Nope |
| 03:34 | <@Vornicus> | 06 0a is in the object map somewhere |
| 03:34 | <@Reiver> | Also: Nevermind the excel thing, I have a Really Stupid Question. If I know that 100 miles is 40 pixels on a map, is 1 square mile 4 pixels? |
| 03:34 | <@Vornicus> | Reiver: no |
| 03:34 | <@Vornicus> | it's 0.16 pixels |
| 03:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Presumably 0x00 is the tile number for grass and 0x91 for monster (they all share the same sprite on the world map) |
| 03:35 | <@Vornicus> | Yes and yes. |
| 03:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | What do you mean "is in the object map somewhere"? |
| 03:35 | <@Reiver> | And 16x16 pixels would be 100 miles square? |
| 03:35 | <@Reiver> | Er. That can't be right. *scratches his head* |
| 03:35 | <@Vornicus> | TF: by that I mean, I've diffed the binary of the save, and these changes are not in the world map |
| 03:35 | <@Reiver> | (So very hate trying to convert units in areas ;_;) |
| 03:35 | <@Vornicus> | Reiver: 4x4 px for 100 square miles |
| 03:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | 16 pixels |
| 03:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | 4x4 |
| 03:36 | <@Reiver> | Ah! Of course. Thank you. |
| 03:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: what do you mean by "world map" here? I'm now confused |
| 03:36 | <@Vornicus> | TF: there are at least four parts to the data I'm looking at. |
| 03:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | I thought you had the visibility mask (1bpt), the tile map (1Bpt), and presumably object/army/etc data elsewhere |
| 03:37 | <@Vornicus> | The first part is about 200 bytes of miscellaneous; it includes among other things the name of my dude and the kinds of armies I have |
| 03:37 | <@Vornicus> | the second part is 2048 bytes of bitmask, which is the visibility mask. |
| 03:38 | <@Vornicus> | Then the third part is around 2000 bytes of other stuff, which includes among other things a bunch of misc stats and all the castle baddie counts, and a whole lot of unrecognizable line noise. |
| 03:38 | <@Vornicus> | Then the fourth part is 16kB of world map data. |
| 03:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. |
| 03:39 | <@Vornicus> | The 06 0a -> ff ff thing that I thought was army composition is in the third part, and appears to be actually army location. |
| 03:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Based on what you've said about the world map, I maintain that this is a tile map. |
| 03:39 | <@Vornicus> | Yep. |
| 03:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | 0x91 does not mean "there is an army here"; it means "when rendering, use the army sprite for this tile" |
| 03:40 | <@Vornicus> | ...hm, a good point. |
| 03:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's a tossup whether it uses the tile map or the object list for collision detection. |
| 03:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | tile map is probably faster, then iterating the relevant part of the object list to see which army/sign/castle/town/lair/etc you collided with. |
| 03:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | (also gets you water/mountain clipping for free, etc) |
| 03:41 | <@Vornicus> | Possibly. |
| 03:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. This explains how it differentiates wandering armies and the like. |
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| 03:43 | | * Vornicus nods. |
| 03:49 | | * Vornicus ponders, decides to Try Science on the next one, and kill something, and then Give Up. Ah, the things we do for reverse engineering: deliberately losing games. |
| 03:55 | <@Reiver> | pft |
| 03:55 | <@Reiver> | So, hm |
| 03:55 | <@Reiver> | This seems slightly strange, but I think it's my head that's doing it wrong |
| 03:56 | <@Vornicus> | ?? |
| 03:56 | <@Reiver> | Measuring a mile in a line is .25px, but measuring a 1mile x 1mile area takes up .16px? |
| 03:56 | <@Vornicus> | measuring a mile is actually 0.4px |
| 03:56 | <@Vornicus> | 0.4*0.4 = 0.16 |
| 03:56 | <@Reiver> | Arg. You're right. |
| 03:57 | <@Reiver> | That explains much. Cheers. |
| 03:58 | <@Vornicus> | also: =FLOOR(N,1) + IF(RAND() < MOD(N,1), 1, 0) |
| 03:59 | <@Reiver> | Oh! Thank you! |
| 04:02 | <@Vornicus> | Oh, that's cool. |
| 04:08 | | * Vornicus finds some piles of goodies. Tries to figure out where these all actually fall. |
| 04:28 | <@Vornicus> | DING |
| 04:29 | <@McMartin> | Level up? |
| 04:29 | | * Vornicus finds monster type/count offsets. |
| 04:29 | | * Vornicus gains a level of Hacker! |
| 04:32 | <@Vornicus> | Okay, that's odd. |
| 04:33 | <@Vornicus> | There's 62 monster entities in all three tables, position, type, and count. |
| 04:34 | <@Vornicus> | A fully-qualified position has three entries: continent, x, y. |
| 04:34 | <@Vornicus> | But the position table only has two entries per entity. |
| 04:34 | <@McMartin> | Are monsters unique to continent? |
| 04:34 | <@Vornicus> | No. |
| 04:35 | <@Vornicus> | You see archmages on all four continents, for instance. |
| 04:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Implicit by table index? |
| 04:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | The first N monsters are on the first continent, etc? |
| 04:36 | <@Vornicus> | ...wow, that one is /coated/ in hate. |
| 04:37 | <@Vornicus> | I doubt it, personally. |
| 04:37 | <@McMartin> | 62: not divisible by four |
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| 04:37 | <@Vornicus> | No it's not |
| 04:38 | <@McMartin> | "coated in hate"? |
| 04:38 | | SandraGW [~SandraFow@Nightstar-13268.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 04:38 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah, I would /not/ enjoy having to do that calculation each time. |
| 04:38 | <@Vash[Maid]> | ... |
| 04:38 | <@Vash[Maid]> | NO! |
| 04:38 | < SandraGW> | I heard I can see some quality geek chat in here. |
| 04:38 | <@Vornicus> | pfff |
| 04:38 | <@Vash[Maid]> | ... |
| 04:39 | < SandraGW> | That's like porno for me. |
| 04:39 | <@Vash[Maid]> | ... |
| 04:39 | <@Vornicus> | ...okay, wack |
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| 04:39 | <@Vash[Maid]> | Sandra, leave my Vorn alone. *glares* |
| 04:39 | <@McMartin> | Your ID is showing. Most of us know who you are. |
| 04:39 | <@McMartin> | Troll Harder |
| 04:39 | < SandraGW> | Vash[Maid], What? Your Vorn isn't the only hot geek in here! |
| 04:39 | <@Vash[Maid]> | XD |
| 04:39 | < SandraGW> | Plenty of fresh hot geek meats. |
| 04:39 | | * Vash[Maid] laughs |
| 04:39 | <@Vash[Maid]> | But you're married! |
| 04:39 | <@Vash[Maid]> | Well... |
| 04:39 | < SandraGW> | Yes, but not dead. |
| 04:40 | | * Vash[Maid] laughs |
| 04:40 | < SandraGW> | There's a difference. |
| 04:40 | <@Vornicus> | There are /more/ than 62 enemies in the world - 62 does, however, cover Continentia and Forestria. |
| 04:40 | | RBot is now known as DiceBot |
| 04:40 | < SandraGW> | Just because I can't buy the produce, doesn't mean I can't drool. Maybe feel it up to see how ripe it is. |
| 04:40 | <@Vash[Maid]> | ... |
| 04:41 | | * Vash[Maid] falls off her chair and snortlaughs |
| 04:41 | | * Vornicus bonks Sandra over the head with his copy of Knuth until she subsides. |
| 04:41 | <@Vornicus> | there's 25 more... and there's enough room for all those. |
| 04:41 | | * SandraGW laughs. |
| 04:41 | < SandraGW> | Okay, I'll be good. |
| 04:45 | <@Vornicus> | ...wait a second, what the crap? |
| 04:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Re: not liking to do that calculation each time: size/speed tradeoff. And when packing the game into a cartridge, size is at a premium. |
| 04:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although, admittedly, one byte per enemy isn't all that much. |
| 04:47 | <@Vornicus> | Well, the thing is |
| 04:48 | <@Vornicus> | it's definitely not a reasonable tradeoff. |
| 04:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | The continent needs to be determined somehow, though |
| 04:49 | <@Vornicus> | We've got 16k of world map /in the save file/, and almost all of it never ever changes. To do the calculation at game load you need to load another 16k and iterate over it to find the baddies. |
| 04:49 | <@Vornicus> | There's no world count of baddies, as far as I can tell. |
| 04:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...hmm. What are the dimensions of a single continent? |
| 04:49 | <@Vornicus> | 64x64. |
| 04:50 | <@Vornicus> | I checked, none of the locations go above 0x3f |
| 04:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | And coordinates are two bytes each, right? One X one Y? |
| 04:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh. |
| 04:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Damn. |
| 04:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | It would have worked out so nicely. |
| 04:52 | < SandraGW> | Oh man, this is awesome. |
| 04:52 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah, it would have. |
| 04:52 | | * SandraGW gets popcorn. |
| 04:52 | | * Vornicus examines. |
| 04:52 | <@McMartin> | Vorn: Dumb question. Monsters spawn at different points on different continents, right? |
| 04:52 | | * ToxicFrog gnaws on Sandra, seasons the popcorn with upvalues |
| 04:52 | <@Vornicus> | What if the full record is 144 records, and it's 36 per continent? |
| 04:52 | <@Vornicus> | McM: certainly, but monsters chase you |
| 04:52 | < SandraGW> | Ooooo. |
| 04:53 | <@Vornicus> | it's possible, with a modicum of work, to make monsters overlap - and I /know/ that isn't buggy. |
| 04:55 | <@Vornicus> | Hm. Okay, there's 36 on continentia, 26 on forestria, 10 on archipelia, and 15 on saharia |
| 04:56 | | * SandraGW swoons. |
| 04:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Always? |
| 04:56 | <@Vornicus> | TF: yes, always, the monster locatiosn are preset, and there's always that number. |
| 04:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | That gives us an aesthetically pleasing total number count of 77. |
| 04:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Err, total monster count even. |
| 04:58 | <@Vornicus> | But here's the thing: after Forestria's, there's a bunch of 00/00 record separators, and then a group of 10 locations... and then more separators, and... 15. |
| 04:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...how many separators? |
| 04:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | 10 and 26 respectively, perchance? |
| 04:58 | <@Vornicus> | 8 and 25. |
| 04:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Bum. |
| 04:59 | <@Vornicus> | wait, let me have something that can't get it wrong do the counting for the on-map critters. |
| 05:03 | <@Vornicus> | 35 27 (+8 = 35) 10 (+25 = 35) 15 |
| 05:04 | <@Vornicus> | We have a winner. |
| 05:05 | <@Vornicus> | And then the offset to the next group is 20 more records after that. |
| 05:06 | <@McMartin> | Dissertation: Printed. |
| 05:06 | | * SandraGW hands Vash some popcorn. |
| 05:06 | < SandraGW> | Vash: I can't believe I pay for porn, why didn't you tell me about this channel? |
| 05:07 | <@Vornicus> | People pay for porn? |
| 05:07 | < SandraGW> | ;_; I do. |
| 05:08 | <@Vash[Maid]> | ... |
| 05:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | o.O |
| 05:08 | <@Vash[Maid]> | . . . |
| 05:08 | <@Reiver> | Why? |
| 05:08 | | * Vash[Maid] nibbles the popcorn and no comments. |
| 05:08 | | * Vash[Maid] also nibbles Vorn |
| 05:09 | < SandraGW> | I can't find pirated stuff from ifeelmyself.com. |
| 05:09 | | * Vornicus writes down his discovery. |
| 05:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | SandraGW: isohunt appears to have some :P |
| 05:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: so, that's the monster table sorted. |
| 05:10 | | * Reiver coughs. |
| 05:11 | <@Reiver> | 4th link and onwards in Google is torrents? |
| 05:11 | < SandraGW> | ToxicFrog, WHAAAAT? |
| 05:11 | | * SandraGW looks. |
| 05:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | -> pm |
| 05:11 | <@Vornicus> | It certainly appears to be. That's 1120 more bytes with homes. |
| 05:11 | < SandraGW> | ToxicFrog, You are my best friend ever. |
| 05:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | So. What's left? |
| 05:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Sandra: glad to be of service :P |
| 05:13 | <@Vornicus> | Okay, let's see. |
| 05:14 | <@Vornicus> | 0000-00c8 are still floating, mostly; I know /some/ of the things, but not all of them. |
| 05:14 | <@Vornicus> | 08c9-09e9 is also still floating; before it is the vismask, after is the monster data. |
| 05:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Chest/signpost data? |
| 05:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or other non-monster world objects? |
| 05:15 | <@Vornicus> | and 0e49-0fc3, too. |
| 05:16 | <@Vornicus> | Other objects I still need to find: spell availability, castle ownership (both are 26 things), treasures (there's a lot more of these), dwellings (probably separate from regular treasures)... |
| 05:18 | <@Vornicus> | I don't know how signposts work - I should check the built-in resources, because I know they're not in strings. |
| 05:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Spell availability I would guess is with other town data. |
| 05:20 | <@Vornicus> | There's only a very few town datas - spells, castle association (dunno how it finds those names, should see what the in-game data looks like), and technically villain association. |
| 05:21 | | * Vornicus breaks out ResEdit to see what that looks like. |
| 05:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | I wonder what it looks like on platforms that don't have resource forks. |
| 05:22 | <@Vornicus> | Dunno. |
| 05:22 | <@Vornicus> | ...the Mac version definitely isn't built like a normal Mac program, as far as resources go though |
| 05:22 | <@McMartin> | TF: .EXEs have resource *chunks*. |
| 05:23 | <@Vornicus> | Okay, there's a huge, vaguely structured, DATA chunk, but it has no discernable strings in it. |
| 05:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: ELFs don't, though, AFAIK, and do MZs? |
| 05:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because if KB was released for DOS it's going to be MZ, not PE |
| 05:24 | <@McMartin> | I'm pretty sure everythign that isn't a .com can put whatever the leeg it wants into the DATA segment. |
| 05:24 | <@Vornicus> | Bunch of completely unreadable ESR#s... |
| 05:25 | <@Vornicus> | This is disconcerting |
| 05:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | grep the entire game folder? |
| 05:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | Non-ASCII string storage? |
| 05:26 | <@Vornicus> | There are other strings that are /definitely/ in ASCII |
| 05:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which ones? |
| 05:27 | <@Vornicus> | The generic strings: "Please wait while I perform the godlike actions necessary to make the game playable", for instance, or "A sign reads: " |
| 05:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 05:29 | | * Reiver ponders how you'd store text if not in ASCII. |
| 05:29 | <@Vornicus> | /technically/ you could compress it, but it's stupid. |
| 05:29 | <@Vornicus> | I mean, honestly. There's not that much text. |
| 05:29 | <@McMartin> | ASCII didn't become any kind of standard until the PC became the only game in town. |
| 05:30 | <@McMartin> | Every single one of the 8-bit machines had an incompatible charset that was at best ASCII-like. |
| 05:30 | <@McMartin> | And by "like" I mean "the characters were the right distance apart" |
| 05:30 | <@Vornicus> | The game has proven that it thinks in ASCII |
| 05:30 | <@Reiver> | McM: This game has strings of ASCII in it, though |
| 05:30 | <@Reiver> | Unless it was a peicemeal port... |
| 05:30 | <@McMartin> | Yeah |
| 05:31 | | * McMartin thought that the Mac had its own special codepage, too |
| 05:32 | <@Vornicus> | Mac Roman, but for all of ASCII it's bog-standard. |
| 05:33 | <@Reiver> | So, wait |
| 05:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: reading through the LP, I bet you'll find that the tilemaps for later continents use something other than0x91 for monsters |
| 05:34 | <@Reiver> | Where are the generic strings you've found so far? |
| 05:34 | <@Vornicus> | you'd be wrong! |
| 05:34 | <@Vornicus> | Reiver: in a single resouce named STR# |
| 05:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Bum. |
| 05:34 | <@Vornicus> | er, STRS |
| 05:34 | <@Reiver> | Is the whole file ASCII usable? |
| 05:34 | <@Vornicus> | Nope. |
| 05:34 | <@Reiver> | Or at least, you know, expected amounts of it |
| 05:35 | | * Reiver is vaugely wondering if there isn't some funky storage thing at work which left the game with an offset present. |
| 05:35 | <@Vornicus> | Null-terminated stuff, a bunch of fake strings that are just numbered |
| 05:35 | <@Reiver> | (You may have already thought of this, but) |
| 05:36 | <@Vornicus> | There's a decent amount of text in the game and I can't find /any/ of it |
| 05:36 | <@Reiver> | This makes me suspect that it's not all ASCII. |
| 05:36 | <@Reiver> | What platforms did the thing end up on? |
| 05:37 | <@Vornicus> | C64, PC, Genesis, Mac |
| 05:37 | <@Reiver> | Which was made first? |
| 05:37 | <@Vornicus> | Dunno |
| 05:37 | | * Reiver 's immediate thought is that it was lazyported, so you need to check the origional codes charset~ |
| 05:38 | <@Vornicus> | oh good god if it's petscii I will kill someone. Probably John Canegham. |
| 05:38 | <@Reiver> | petscii? |
| 05:38 | <@Vornicus> | petscii: ascii except for commodores. |
| 05:38 | <@Reiver> | Are you able to -check-? |
| 05:39 | <@Vornicus> | McM would probably be able to more easily than I; I don't know how petscii works off the top of my head. |
| 05:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Are there things that look like null-terminated strings, except not readable? |
| 05:41 | <@Reiver> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PETSCII - does a code table help? |
| 05:42 | <@Vornicus> | TF: no. There are a few places where regular strings have unreadable characters in them though |
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| 05:45 | <@Vornicus> | For instance it goes "Castle \x04 is under " |
| 05:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 05:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's like printf, only with less readability. |
| 05:45 | <@Vornicus> | Quite |
| 05:46 | <@Vornicus> | But I don't know at all where it's pulling those from |
| 05:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hit the code, IMO |
| 05:46 | <@Vornicus> | Woo, assembler |
| 05:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | What's it targeting? |
| 05:47 | <@Vornicus> | I could have sworn ResEdit had a disassembler built in, but it doesn't seem to. |
| 05:47 | <@Vornicus> | 68k |
| 05:47 | <@Vornicus> | So, not too bad, but |
| 05:49 | <@Vornicus> | Well, that's a thank god moment - doesn't appear to be in the code. |
| 05:51 | <@Vornicus> | The unrecognizable data, I can't find any actual /structure/ to it, but it doesn't appear to be compressed, either. There's too much structure. |
| 05:51 | <@Reiver> | I seriously suggest trying out various non-ASCII charsets on some of it, see if things start to pop up |
| 05:52 | <@Reiver> | Odds are they tweaked the bits that needed tweaking and left data files alone as much as possible... which means it may well have dealt with strange character sets internally. |
| 05:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Would that not have required more tweaking, not less? |
| 05:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Translating all your strings is a single command. Adding code to handle non-native character sets is...not. |
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| 05:53 | <@Reiver> | Point, but |
| 05:53 | <@Vornicus> | They don't look like ebcdic, and it's certainly not petscii (which is enough like ascii that I would be able to tell) |
| 05:53 | <@Reiver> | Other options? A lazy form of compression in files that seem to be relatively uncompressed otherwise? |
| 05:54 | | * Reiver is assuming Vorn has already checked for bitshifted text (Though why they'd do -that- is just as much a mystery) |
| 05:54 | <@Vornicus> | Why the hell would you compress text when you've got 10k of it and probably a meg of graphics (though granted the graphics /are/ compressed) |
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| 05:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | I seriously think your best bet here is to toss it into IDA, find out where it uses one of the recognizeable ones like "castle foo is under", then work backwards from ther |
| 05:55 | <@Vornicus> | Wait, I do have a Windows machine available,don't I. |
| 05:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | IDA's not as good at dataflow analysis as it as at control flow, IME, but should still be sufficient for this task. |
| 05:57 | <@Vornicus> | How did I get sidetracked with looking for the strings anyway? |
| 05:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Beats me. |
| 05:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Worst case you could transcribe them manually. |
| 05:59 | <@Vornicus> | I already have, most of them |
| 05:59 | <@Vornicus> | I haven't done the villain text though. |
| 05:59 | <@Vornicus> | actually I've done /all/ the signs and castle names. |
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| 06:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh goddamnit sourceforge |
| 06:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Please stop rewriting your downloads page to suck more |
| 06:10 | <@Vornicus> | Hrm. Okay, so, the only castle data I have so far is the unit types. |
| 06:13 | <@Vornicus> | I'm missing, then, 130 bytes of data in the range 00..19, probably all consecutive. |
| 06:22 | <@Vornicus> | hrm, 260 bytes here. |
| 06:24 | <@Vornicus> | In total I need 156 bytes for all the town data. |
| 06:24 | <@Vornicus> | town/castle data, that is |
| 06:25 | <@Vornicus> | er, 182, rather, unless I'm really missing something. |
| 06:26 | <@Vornicus> | (26 * (5 for monsters, 1 for spell, 1 for villain) |
| 06:31 | <@Reiver> | Discovered? |
| 06:32 | <@Vornicus> | Oh, shit |
| 06:32 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah, there's at minimum a bitmask for whether you've seen the town or castle or not |
| 06:32 | <@Reiver> | Yeah |
| 06:32 | <@Vornicus> | This data here then doesn't look like everything. |
| 06:33 | <@Reiver> | That could also be stored on the map, though |
| 06:33 | <@Vornicus> | ...hm, I wonder. |
| 06:34 | <@Vornicus> | I'll need a gate spell first though |
| 06:36 | <@Vornicus> | Okay, definitely need to properly visit - walking /near/ a castle isn't enough to allow you to gate to it. |
| 06:41 | <@Reiver> | 1,224,258 pixels. Wow. |
| 06:41 | | * Vornicus finds the teleport location data. |
| 06:42 | <@Vornicus> | Reiv: what'cha doing? |
| 06:43 | <@Reiver> | Trying to calculate the ballpark population of my continent. |
| 06:43 | <@Reiver> | I have formulas for calculating people per square mile, but if a square mile takes up .16 of a pixel... |
| 06:44 | <@Reiver> | No matter how I slice it, I'm looking at, uh, a Lot(tm). |
| 06:44 | <@McMartin> | Pixels are a unit of area |
| 06:46 | <@Reiver> | McM: Yes. I drew this thing, and divined a scale for it. |
| 06:46 | <@Vornicus> | Okay, the charts are always in the same place... |
| 06:47 | <@Reiver> | Said scale worked out to be so-close-I-standardised-it to 40pixels => 100 miles. |
| 06:47 | <@Vornicus> | ...BUT |
| 06:48 | <@Vornicus> | Non-spectacular treasures change each time. |
| 06:48 | <@Vornicus> | You can savescum non-uniques |
| 06:49 | <@Vornicus> | Which is Bad News. :( |
| 06:49 | <@McMartin> | "Distance from base: [** Programming error: Crash site (object number 163337) has no property distance to read **] 11 mile(s)" |
| 06:49 | <@Vornicus> | McM: what? |
| 06:50 | <@McMartin> | IFComp |
| 06:50 | <@McMartin> | From the game that was, all by itself, 5/6s of the comp download. |
| 06:50 | <@Vornicus> | whups |
| 06:50 | <@McMartin> | (In large part because it appears to ship with an entire spacesynth album) |
| 06:50 | <@Vornicus> | heh |
| 06:50 | <@McMartin> | > hint |
| 06:50 | <@McMartin> | Think harder. :) |
| 06:50 | <@McMartin> | > fuck you |
| 06:50 | <@McMartin> | Real adventurers do not use such language. |
| 06:52 | <@Reiver> | ...that is bad form, innit? |
| 06:52 | <@Vornicus> | Okay, so. Non-special treasures aren't in the file. |
| 06:53 | <@Vornicus> | Which means that they're not pregenerated; which means that they /suck/. |
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| 06:57 | <@Vornicus> | dwelling locations /are/ in the file, though, let me see if I can figure it out... |
| 06:58 | <@Reiver> | Why do they suck, vornypie? |
| 06:58 | <@Vash[Maid]> | ... |
| 06:58 | <@Vornicus> | Since they're not in the file, I have to use other methods to determine their distribution. |
| 06:59 | <@McMartin> | Perhaps the LP is full of tastiness in this regard? |
| 06:59 | <@McMartin> | Or GameFAQs? |
| 06:59 | <@Vornicus> | I've already looked. |
| 06:59 | <@McMartin> | (I?, Kur'bii) |
| 07:00 | <@Vornicus> | The LP is not technical enough; I need actual distribution. |
| 07:01 | <@Reiver> | The LP is bloody helpful in other respects, though |
| 07:02 | <@Vornicus> | It is. |
| 07:02 | <@Vornicus> | Now that I think about it it /did/ mention that mundane treasures are scummable. |
| 07:05 | | * Vornicus finds what appears to be 88 bytes of dwelling location data, padded the same way as the monster data. |
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| 07:16 | | * Vornicus finds the dwelling population data; now to find the monster type data. |
| 07:23 | | * Vornicus finds that. Is slowly running low on places for things. |
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| 15:21 | <@Attilla> | What does "expected declaration specifiers or ... before <var>" mean on the gcc compiler? |
| 15:37 | <@Attilla> | Oh I see the problem now, in declaring a function and declaring the functions variables I need to note the type each time even if two or more are of the same type. |
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| --- Log closed Wed Oct 22 16:34:13 2008 |
| --- Log opened Wed Oct 22 16:34:18 2008 |
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| 16:34 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 19 nicks [15 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal] |
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| 17:22 | <@gnolam> | FREEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOM |
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| 21:24 | | Vash is now known as Strawberry |
| 21:27 | | * McMartin flails at the Internet |
| 21:27 | <@McMartin> | Why is the only link anywhere to WinBench a busted link on the equivalent of Download.com? |
| 21:27 | <@McMartin> | FAIL |
| 21:30 | | Strawberry is now known as Vash |
| 21:53 | <@gnolam> | Hmm. Work on a project or lie comatose on the couch, that is the question. |
| 21:54 | <@gnolam> | The couch it is. |
| 21:55 | | * AnnoDomini laughs. |
| 22:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | WinBench? |
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| 23:13 | <@McMartin> | TF: WinBench is a series of benchmarks for Windows systems. |
| 23:13 | <@McMartin> | That are more like "application performance" and less polygon slinging |
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| 23:59 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| --- Log closed Thu Oct 23 00:00:04 2008 |