| --- Log opened Thu Apr 26 00:00:03 2007 |
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| 00:17 | <@gnolam> | Huh. I guess Linux might actually /be/ ready for the desktop. Nowadays, it actually boots! |
| 00:20 | <@McMartin> | It's been basically usable as a desktop workstation since FC5, in the Fedora end. |
| 00:20 | <@McMartin> | Not sure about Ubuntu |
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| 00:31 | <@gnolam> | Well, that was at the same time impressive and very unimpressive. |
| 00:45 | < MyCatVerbs> | gnolam: 300? |
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| 00:47 | <@gnolam> | No. Tried the Kubuntu Desktop CD. |
| 00:51 | < Doctor_Nick> | im using kubuntu right now |
| 00:51 | < Doctor_Nick> | its pretty neat =) |
| 00:53 | <@gnolam> | Well, that was the impressive part: it's pretty. The unimpressive, however, won. |
| 00:54 | <@gnolam> | Such as not being able to set a decent graphics mode for my monitor (1280x1024 is /ugly/), not having any working TV out at all, and some kind of complete crash on shutdown. |
| 00:54 | < Doctor_Nick> | you installed your graphics drivers, right? |
| 00:56 | <@gnolam> | <gnolam> No. Tried the Kubuntu Desktop CD. |
| 00:56 | < Doctor_Nick> | you mean the live cd? |
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| 00:57 | <@gnolam> | That's what everyone else calls it. Not Ubuntu though. |
| 00:57 | <@gnolam> | (Even finding it is actually quite a task) |
| 00:57 | < Doctor_Nick> | oh right |
| 00:57 | < Doctor_Nick> | the desktop cd is both the live cd and the install cd |
| 00:58 | < Doctor_Nick> | well, I dunno, are there any other live cds that let you use tv-out? |
| 00:59 | <@gnolam> | Don't know, don't care. |
| 00:59 | <@gnolam> | I'm giving these to a friend. I'm giving it a pass. |
| 01:00 | < Doctor_Nick> | k |
| 01:00 | <@gnolam> | If it doesn't work out of the box... well, I have better things to do. |
| 01:02 | < Doctor_Nick> | windows doesn't work out of the box either... |
| 01:02 | <@McMartin> | If you didn't actually install it you probably aren't getting a complete picture of its capability |
| 01:03 | < Doctor_Nick> | in fact, kubuntu works more out of the box then the default windows install does |
| 01:04 | <@gnolam> | Spare me the evangelism. |
| 01:04 | <@McMartin> | Uh |
| 01:04 | <@McMartin> | "You didn't run the program, why are you opinion on its nonexistence" is not evangelism. |
| 01:04 | <@McMartin> | opining, even. |
| 01:04 | < Doctor_Nick> | gnolam, why are you getting all defensive here? we're just having a friendly conversation :( |
| 01:04 | <@McMartin> | I can't set italics in Notepad! Windows is unusable! |
| 01:05 | <@gnolam> | "I ran the program that is supposed to show me exactly what the program can do, and thus I am opining on it" |
| 01:05 | <@gnolam> | Doctor_Nick: Not defensive. /Offensive/. I saw the dark road this conversation was heading down and decided to stop it before it careened off the broken bridge two kilometers down. |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | But you didn't install graphics drivers. |
| 01:06 | < Doctor_Nick> | Dark road? |
| 01:06 | <@gnolam> | Yes. |
| 01:06 | < Doctor_Nick> | the dark road of nerds arguing over the internet? |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | I mean, yes, if you're comparing it to a preinstalled, preconfigured OS, then fine. |
| 01:06 | <@gnolam> | I'm arguing that my /monitor/ shouldn't need drivers. |
| 01:06 | < Doctor_Nick> | it doesn't |
| 01:06 | < Doctor_Nick> | your graphics card does |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | Last I checked, Preferences->Desktop should let you change resolutions. |
| 01:07 | < Doctor_Nick> | mcmartin: it wouldnt let him, because his graphics card drivers weren't installed |
| 01:07 | <@McMartin> | Nick: Um. That shouldn't hold for lower resolutions. |
| 01:07 | <@gnolam> | Up to 1280x1024. Because it decided that my monitor was, in fact, not a monitor but a recently departed marmoset or something like that. |
| 01:08 | <@McMartin> | ... Not to be a dick, but that's a pretty standard top res. |
| 01:08 | <@gnolam> | Anyway, since this conversation is just seconds away from that certain doom I tried to prevent by getting downright nasty, I'll just quote myself again: |
| 01:08 | <@gnolam> | <gnolam> If it doesn't work out of the box... well, I have better things to do. |
| 01:09 | <@McMartin> | I am now astonished that you are, in fact, on the Intertrons at all. |
| 01:09 | <@McMartin> | And I have to ask what res your monitor is. |
| 01:09 | <@gnolam> | 1600x1200. |
| 01:09 | <@gnolam> | I think it might actually go higher, but meh. Too low a refresh rate. |
| 01:10 | < Doctor_Nick> | im gonna go play video games |
| 01:10 | <@McMartin> | That's one unit up from 1280x1024 on my reslist. |
| 01:11 | <@McMartin> | Well, no. two, I guess. |
| 01:11 | < Doctor_Nick> | McMartin: I had problems setting my resolution before installing the drivers too, so... |
| 01:11 | <@McMartin> | I only tested it to see if they'd gotten Desktop Effects working (no). |
| 01:11 | < Doctor_Nick> | i also couldn't go above 1280x1024 |
| 01:12 | < Doctor_Nick> | i got beryl to work |
| 01:12 | <@McMartin> | My monitor, according to gnolam, is in fact not a monitor at all, so. |
| 01:12 | < Doctor_Nick> | but it's slow and buggy, so i ditched it |
| 01:12 | <@McMartin> | I have no idea how I'm interacting with you guys. |
| 01:12 | <@McMartin> | What chipset? |
| 01:12 | < Doctor_Nick> | by typing words into your keyboard and watching the output on the screen |
| 01:12 | <@McMartin> | But I don't have a screen! |
| 01:12 | <@McMartin> | Just a dead marmoset. |
| 01:13 | < Doctor_Nick> | ati mobility 9700 |
| 01:13 | <@McMartin> | Mmm. Yeah, the 9000 seemed to demand that all desktops be square. |
| 01:13 | <@McMartin> | And the XPress 200 didn't work at all. |
| 01:13 | <@McMartin> | The Intel onboard chipset has gotten the best results I've heard of so far. |
| 01:15 | <@McMartin> | And WPA actually works now. |
| 01:15 | < Doctor_Nick> | :O |
| 01:16 | < Doctor_Nick> | kubuntu works pretty damn good when you realize that almost every driver had to be reverse engineered with little-to-no documentation |
| 01:18 | <@McMartin> | That's not a particularly good argument. |
| 01:19 | <@McMartin> | Also, Ubuntu has been working better than its parent project precisely because they *do* include, for instance, wireless drivers that US federal regulations demand must violate Debian's free software definition. |
| 01:19 | <@McMartin> | Though if the drivers I tested weren't actually ATI's, that would explain why the XP200 didn't work. |
| 01:25 | < Doctor_Nick> | us federal regulations? |
| 01:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | You can't open-source wireless drivers because then getting them to operate on military frequencies is a one-line change to config.h |
| 01:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | IIRC. |
| 01:27 | < Doctor_Nick> | can't hackers do that anyway? |
| 01:29 | <@McMartin> | Yes, but it's harder. |
| 01:30 | <@McMartin> | They're more worried about people broadcasting on emergency frequencies by accident. |
| 01:30 | <@McMartin> | And this is generally because hardware developers are too cheap to do this in firmware where it belongs |
| 01:32 | < Doctor_Nick> | welp |
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| 04:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, USE flags are a horrific mess. |
| 04:09 | | * MyCatVerbs gives ToxicFrog a cookie. |
| 04:10 | < MyCatVerbs> | You show me a build system that isn't, on every or even any level, and I'll wear my shirts inside out for a week running. |
| 04:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, first of all, USE flags aren't a build system. |
| 04:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | They're options that control the build system. |
| 04:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | The problem is that options that control builds in general, install builds in specific, and specific programs are all lumped together. |
| 04:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, for example, "x" is "build stuff with X11 support where possible", but "xorg" is "build and install X.Org" |
| 04:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | And we have things like "audio" which isn |
| 04:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | 't "build stuff with audio support where possible", but "build (obscure program you have never heard of and will never use) with audio support" |
| 04:18 | < MyCatVerbs> | I know what USE flags are, thank you. |
| 04:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aaand the install randomly stops working on screen 16. |
| 04:18 | | * ToxicFrog ditches it, fires up the burner to try xubuntu |
| 04:19 | < MyCatVerbs> | The point I was trying to get across is that no build system on Earth does not suck in at least one way. On one level, so to speak. USE flags just happen to be one of Portage's bigger messes. |
| 04:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Even by the standards of build systems and build-system-related things, USE flags suck huge, throbbing donkey balls. |
| 04:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which irritates me, because I really like the concept behind Gentoo. |
| 04:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | But the system as it stands is, for my purposes, unusable. |
| 04:23 | < MyCatVerbs> | Pity. |
| 04:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | (in particular, it would be really nice to (1) build packages with the wacky optional features that the Fedora package maintainers don't like and (2) not have to rely on binaries for my arch being available) |
| 04:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | (however, being able to actually install the operating system is more important than either of these things) |
| 04:24 | < MyCatVerbs> | Sounds like what you really need out of USE flags is a little cleanup. |
| 04:25 | < MyCatVerbs> | Er, changed about them. |
| 04:26 | < MyCatVerbs> | Tractable, but a lot of work. Yes, it'd be very nice indeed if the USE flags were actually sane or limited in number and reasonably well documented. |
| 04:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | A lot of my complaints - about the USE flags, anyways - would be dealt with if they were divided into three different sets: install flags, general flags and app-specific flags. |
| 04:29 | < MyCatVerbs> | Can't argue with that, and it'd certainly be a Hell of a cut in the amount of upkeep work and some of the insanity of their proliferation. |
| 04:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | This could even be handled entirely in frontend without touching the USE mechanism itself, although sooner or later name collisions will start to crop up (or flag names will become increasingly desperate, as is already starting to happen) |
| 04:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | This wouldn't, however, fix the issues with the installers NFWing. |
| 04:32 | < MyCatVerbs> | True dat. File a bug report, fart loudly, go get drunk. Next time you're sober, update ports and see if it happens again? |
| 04:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | 'ports'? |
| 04:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | The problems I'm having are with the releases and installer CDs. |
| 04:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | So it won't be fixed until the 2007.0, whenever that is, at the earliest. |
| 04:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | Er, portage. |
| 04:34 | < MyCatVerbs> | Oh, I thought you were having issues with a specific port. My bad. |
| 04:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | No, I'm having issue with the /OS installer/ |
| 04:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Of the three and a half options, 1 doesn't work, 2 doesn't work, 3 doesn't work and is actively painful and 3.5 probably works but is even more painful than 3. |
| 04:38 | < MyCatVerbs> | Options? I thought Gentoo's installation options were, #1: do it yourself by hand, following the nice well-written (ish) HTML guide or #2: run back screaming to Slackware, bitch. ^^ |
| 04:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | 1 is text installer on liveCD, 2 is GTK installer on liveCD. |
| 04:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Neither of these work. |
| 04:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | 3 is do it yourself with autoconfigured kernel. This works until you get to kernel configuration. |
| 04:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | 3.5 is do it all yourself. Bugger that. |
| 04:41 | < MyCatVerbs> | I wasn't aware any of the options other than 3.5 existed. |
| 04:41 | < MyCatVerbs> | Personally, that's the only one I wouldn't eschew. |
| 04:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have become greatly accustomed to being able to say "install to this partition" and then walk away and have a working system half an hour later. |
| 04:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | In particular, I should not have to manually configure every single kernel module and tell it exactly what hardware is in my system. |
| 04:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Especially when it has already autodetected same. |
| 04:43 | < Doctor_Nick> | welp |
| 04:44 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: I can't remember what on Earth it is called, but the usual solution to this conundrum is to smack the "Build *all* drivers as modules," button, then either build a RAMdisk (ewww) or build your filesystems and disk drivers in properly. |
| 04:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | There *was no such option* |
| 04:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | At least not that I could find. |
| 04:44 | < MyCatVerbs> | None of the above options are particularly user friendly, admittedly. But if that's what you're after, the fuck would you be using Gentoo for? |
| 04:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | And, indeed, on a properly set up system these should options, but not necessities. |
| 04:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | I would be using Gentoo for the ability to use packages without waiting for the lazy package maintainers to build an AMD64 version. |
| 04:45 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: jah, worse part is I think it's a make invocation. But the generic kernel didn't work? That is an aberration. |
| 04:46 | <@McMartin> | genkernel never worked right for me. |
| 04:46 | < MyCatVerbs> | Because that's just the safe, slightly shaky version where everything is built in. If you find a machine that that doesn't book on then, uh, nice toaster. |
| 04:46 | | * McMartin was running genkernel on an Athlon XP. |
| 04:46 | <@McMartin> | Whatever the install CD used worked! |
| 04:46 | <@McMartin> | No other version did. |
| 04:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Athlon64 laptop, here. |
| 04:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Both install CDs autodetected and booted fine, but god forbid I try to actually install a working system. |
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| 04:48 | < MyCatVerbs> | Sounds about right for Gentoo. >> |
| 04:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | It is right for nothing! |
| 04:50 | < MyCatVerbs> | Correct, not ideal. |
| 04:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Even the windows installer is better, in that it has at least a 60% chance of resulting in a bootable system with no more than four retries. |
| 04:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. The xubuntu installer has no option for 'do not install a bootloader' |
| 04:52 | < MyCatVerbs> | No -major- problem there, hopefully? chainloader +1 rules work well enough, one hopes. |
| 04:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | The issue is that I already have GRUB installed and pointed at the config files on /dev/hda2 |
| 04:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's going to install it again and point it at /dev/hda4 |
| 04:53 | < MyCatVerbs> | I give up. Bah, humbug. |
| 04:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 04:55 | < MyCatVerbs> | Fuck optimism. Everything sucks, burn the lot then piss on the ashes. |
| 04:58 | < Doctor_Nick> | what a wonderful day |
| 04:58 | < Doctor_Nick> | i think i'll go for a stroll! :D |
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| 22:17 | <@jerith> | downcase(String) -> lists:map(fun(C) -> if 64<C, C<98 -> C+32; true -> C end end, String). |
| 22:17 | <@jerith> | It only works for 7-bit ASCII, but it makes me happy. :-) |
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| 23:17 | < Takyoji> | Anyone know of a instant messaging client for collaboration/planning? Such as a multi-user drawing program like NetMeeting has |
| 23:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not offhand. Reiver and Vorn know about a shared-whiteboard flash thing, but I don't recall if it comes with attached chat. I don't know of any such dedicated programs, although they probably exist somewhere. |
| 23:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | It wouldn't suprise me to find some 1990-vintage X11 program that does this, in particular~ |
| 23:19 | < Takyoji> | hmm |
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| --- Log closed Fri Apr 27 00:00:03 2007 |