| --- Log opened Wed Apr 25 00:00:03 2007 |
| 00:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. Sanity check. |
| 00:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Say I have an executable. |
| 00:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | This executable has stuff appended to it after it's built. |
| 00:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | When run, it looks at the end of itself for a table of resources - the appended stuff - and behaves based on that. |
| 00:18 | <@gnolam> | Sounds like the usual and proper way to distribute intepreted programs to people without interpreters. |
| 00:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, the way I've been doing that before now is generating C source with the interpreted program code embedded in it. |
| 00:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | But that requires a C compiler. |
| 00:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | And the terp libraries and so forth. |
| 00:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | My main worry here is that I don't know if this will, for example, break the windows PE loader. |
| 00:21 | <@gnolam> | It's doable. |
| 00:22 | <@gnolam> | It's built into Allegro for example. |
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| 01:14 | < Ogredude> | oh god, what genius |
| 01:14 | < Ogredude> | the main template file is a series of PHP echo statements that echo out all the HTML |
| 01:16 | <@McMartin> | Ah, PHP. |
| 01:16 | <@McMartin> | PHP lost me at dynamic includes. |
| 01:16 | < Ogredude> | fucking hate PHP |
| 01:17 | < Ogredude> | it promotes sloppy coding |
| 01:17 | < Ogredude> | and spaghetti |
| 01:17 | <@McMartin> | And injection attacks of all sorts. |
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| 01:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | It is spiders. |
| 01:31 | <@McMartin> | And it's more than half of the web-facing projects at SF.net and Freshmeat, and more than twice as popular as its runner-up! |
| 01:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's the bit that fills me with ;.; |
| 01:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Maybe I should release my library for web interfaces in Lua~ |
| 01:41 | < Ogredude> | bleah. |
| 01:41 | < Ogredude> | and so far, there's not a single decent forum or CMS package out there for Rails |
| 01:41 | < Ogredude> | they're trying |
| 01:41 | < Ogredude> | but they ain't there yet |
| 01:42 | <@McMartin> | I'm full of hate for Ruby, too, but I freely admit that hate is irrational. |
| 01:43 | <@McMartin> | Nearly all the guides to it spend 95% of the time raving about how easy it is to use and don't use the remaining 5% to actually explain how the language, you know, actually works. |
| 01:43 | <@McMartin> | And also tends to gloss over the places where it's different from Perl, for extra fun. |
| 01:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | My library is way more basic than rails. |
| 01:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | "Here are your arguments. Here are some useful properties. Here's a bunch of output and string processing functions. Enjoy." |
| 01:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I don't know, I consider "there is no useful documentation for it" to be rational. |
| 01:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, something happened today which shocked me to my core. |
| 01:46 | <@McMartin> | TF: Yes, but my stated reason is "its public fans cheese me off" |
| 01:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | I found a circumstance in which little-endian is superior to big-endian. |
| 01:47 | <@McMartin> | ... That's not terribly difficult. |
| 01:47 | <@McMartin> | "I can receive a 64-bit value and treat it as a 32-bit one for free" is the standard one. |
| 01:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | The one I found is related: "I can allocate N bytes in the file format and this will work for all widths less than N, too" |
| 01:48 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, that's the same basic advantage. |
| 01:49 | <@McMartin> | It's a lot more noticable when you're writing on an 8-bit machine. |
| 01:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | (which I was pondering use of size_t for the new and improved version of blcgen) |
| 01:49 | <@McMartin> | My 6502 multiply routines are mostly "Yes, this actually returns a 32-bit value but you don't have to care" |
| 01:57 | < Ogredude> | McMartin: oh yeah, I agree with you on the ruby guides |
| 01:57 | < Ogredude> | and how they keep going on and on about how easy it is |
| 01:57 | < Ogredude> | until you want to do something complex |
| 01:57 | < Ogredude> | then it gets just as hairy as any other language |
| 01:58 | <@McMartin> | The part I found particularly galling is that its one truly unusual control structure, which it borrowed from Eiffel, tends to be treated totally in passing, usually with one or two sentences. |
| 01:58 | <@McMartin> | The || notation. |
| 02:00 | < Ogredude> | I donno this whole endian stuff. |
| 02:00 | < Ogredude> | ToxicFrog: oh, there's useful documentation, it's just NOT written at a beginner level. |
| 02:00 | < Ogredude> | You have to be pretty comfortable pawing through code to research what it's trying to tell you |
| 02:00 | < Ogredude> | and you have to be clever in being able to find the pages you need in the first place |
| 02:00 | < Ogredude> | but the docs are there |
| 02:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | The conversation about endianness is unrelated to the conversation about Ruby. |
| 02:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | "existant" and "useful" are different~ |
| 02:01 | < Ogredude> | true. |
| 02:01 | < Ogredude> | PHP's documentation is useful |
| 02:01 | < Ogredude> | I really like PHP's documentation. |
| 02:01 | < Ogredude> | I wish the rest of it lived up to the docs. |
| 02:02 | < Ogredude> | as for Rails, once you get the hang of it, it's really quite slick. |
| 02:02 | < Ogredude> | it's got a lot sharper learning curve than they'd like you to believe |
| 02:02 | < Ogredude> | 5 minute blog tutorial, feh. |
| 02:02 | < Ogredude> | that uses the "scaffold" which is more show-off than functional |
| 02:02 | < Ogredude> | it's not really that useful in the real world |
| 02:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Rails suffers from the fact that it's a Ruby library~ |
| 02:03 | < Ogredude> | only if you think being based on Ruby is a disadvantage, which I don't. |
| 02:03 | < Ogredude> | I find the language to be rather easy and elegant to use. |
| 02:04 | < Ogredude> | and it's sure contributed a LOT to my hatred of PHP and of PHP coders. |
| 02:04 | < Ogredude> | before I picked up Ruby, I thought PHP was great |
| 02:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, concerning considering Ruby to be a disadvantage, see our conversation about documentation above. |
| 02:07 | | * ToxicFrog finds it elegant in the same way Perl is elegant ;.; |
| 02:08 | < Ogredude> | ah, but the Ruby documentation is quite useful and easy to use. |
| 02:08 | < Ogredude> | it's the Rails docs that are lacking |
| 02:08 | < Ogredude> | not so much in content, but in ease of finding things, and in ease of understanding things |
| 02:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...but...you just *said* that the Ruby docs require extensive digging through code and some degree of magic to find the code you need to dig through in the first place. |
| 02:09 | < Ogredude> | no |
| 02:09 | < Ogredude> | I said the RAILS docs required that. |
| 02:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | And all the tutorials, as McM have pointed out, basically go "Ruby is the best language ever. It is both powerful and intuitive. For example, here is how you open a file: sd6547[@#!$#$&*]1123NOCARRIER. Isn't it elegant?" |
| 02:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh. |
| 02:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | McM and I were talking about Ruby. |
| 02:10 | < Ogredude> | well I haven't seen all that much on non-Rails Ruby usage. |
| 02:10 | < Ogredude> | I know it's usable for other things |
| 02:11 | < Ogredude> | but Rails is too groovy, I haven't had to play with other stuff yet. |
| 02:11 | < Ogredude> | but yeah, most of the Rails tutorials go "Rails is so awesome, check out how easy this is, just do this, this, and that and you've got a COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY USELESS AND/OR REDUNDANT piece of software!" |
| 02:11 | < Ogredude> | thing I've noticed with Rails projects is that 5% of the project takes 95% of the time. |
| 02:12 | < Ogredude> | which is better than PHP where you have to pretty much build every damn thing from scratch and remember several thousand functions with varying argument requirements |
| 02:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | The Ruby tutorials are the same, except that the completely and utterly useless and/or redundant piece of software looks like something that spawned in the Obfuscated Perl Code Contest. |
| 02:12 | < Ogredude> | weird. |
| 02:13 | < Ogredude> | every bit of Ruby I've ever laid eyes on has been rather straightforward and easy to understand |
| 02:13 | < Ogredude> | could be because I'm in Rails for so much of the time |
| 02:13 | < Ogredude> | anyway, dinnertime |
| 02:15 | | * McMartin tries to recall the expression. |
| 02:16 | <@McMartin> | ???!!!??:!!?? |
| 02:16 | <@McMartin> | There we go. |
| 02:17 | <@McMartin> | (Evaluates to "false") |
| 02:18 | | * ToxicFrog ponders blcgen |
| 02:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Man, I'm going to have to basically implement an entire require() ;.; |
| 02:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Since I can't just do naiive filename resolution; I have to worry about package.path |
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| 04:03 | < Doctor_Nick> | ugh |
| 04:03 | < Doctor_Nick> | how does someone getting hired for a programming position not know what 2||3 is |
| 04:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Knowing what language that's in would probably help. |
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| --- Log closed Wed Apr 25 15:29:45 2007 |
| --- Log opened Wed Apr 25 15:51:09 2007 |
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| 18:50 | <@gnolam> | Hmm. Any PC hardware gurus around? |
| 18:54 | < GeekSoldier> | somewhat. |
| 18:54 | < GeekSoldier> | whatcha need? |
| 18:55 | <@gnolam> | I'm thinking about upgrading my current 'puter a bit. To be specific, I'm thinking about switching its current 2x512 MB PC3200 DDR for 2x1024 MB PC3200 DDR. |
| 18:55 | < GeekSoldier> | ok. |
| 18:55 | < GeekSoldier> | good so far. |
| 18:55 | <@gnolam> | However, I'm not sure if I can keep one of the old mems (the motherboard has three slots) or not - if I keep it, will it fsck up the dual channel thingy? |
| 18:56 | < GeekSoldier> | not particularly, if your mobo does it right. |
| 18:56 | < GeekSoldier> | you put the 2x1GB in dual chan, and the other in single chan, and it should work fine. |
| 18:57 | < GeekSoldier> | check the docs to your mobo to see specifically if it allows that setting, though. |
| 18:59 | <@gnolam> | Ah, thanks! |
| 19:00 | | * ToxicFrog throttles UUW |
| 19:03 | <@gnolam> | No other latency issues to worry about or anything? |
| 19:05 | < GeekSoldier> | not that I'm aware of. |
| 19:10 | | * gnolam frowns. |
| 19:11 | < GeekSoldier> | I would expect them. |
| 19:12 | <@gnolam> | I'm simply trying to figure out if any chip conforms to the motherboard's constraints... |
| 19:13 | <@gnolam> | Specifically, |
| 19:13 | <@gnolam> | "3. DIMMs with more than 18 chips are not supported. |
| 19:13 | <@gnolam> | 4. DIMMs with more than 8 devices on each side of the module are not supported." |
| 19:14 | < GeekSoldier> | interesting. |
| 19:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | o.O |
| 19:19 | | * gnolam 's brain hurts. :P |
| 19:22 | <@gnolam> | "Kingston's KHX3200AK2/2G is a kit of two 128M x 64-bit 1GB (1024MB) DDR400 SDRAM (Synchronous DRAM) CL2 memory modules, based on sixteen 64M x 8-bit (16M x 8-bit x 4 Bank) DDR400 SDRAM in TSOP packages." <- so is that 16 or 32 chips? |
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| 19:34 | <@gnolam> | Hmm. To recommend Linux or not. |
| 19:34 | <@gnolam> | That is the question. |
| 19:34 | <@AnnoDomini> | When it doubt, set it on fire. |
| 19:38 | <@jerith> | Recommend Feisty. |
| 19:39 | < GeekSoldier> | I installed Feisty on the kids' computer... gonna see how it looks tomorrow. (kubuntu, that is) |
| 19:39 | <@EvilDarkLord> | Feisty is shiny. I finally got full resolution working with it without using binary drivers. |
| 19:40 | <@gnolam> | Eh, what the heck. I'll recommend him a LiveCD and see what happens. |
| 19:41 | <@gnolam> | If nothing else, I get to see if Linux really /is/ ready for the desktop or not. ;D |
| 19:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Fedora has, IMO, been ready for quite some time. |
| 19:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | I haven't tried Ubuntu 7 yet, and 6 randomly ceased working. |
| 19:42 | <@jerith> | Fedora has a huge weakness. RPM sucks and yum is a festering pile of dung. |
| 19:42 | <@jerith> | (I'm investigating smart as a replacement for yum. If that works out, I may just retain my sanity.) |
| 19:42 | <@gnolam> | This is for a "regular" user, you see. |
| 19:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | jerith: on the one hand, Yum is ass-slow. |
| 19:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | On the other hand, it's actually usable. |
| 19:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which gives it a brutal advantage over apt-get. |
| 19:46 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: I exclude "hangs at startup and requires manual cleaning out of lockfiles /and a reboot of the box/ before it'll work again" from "actually usable". |
| 19:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | This has never happened to me, and furthermore I suspect that if you had to /reboot/ you were doing something seriously wrong. |
| 19:47 | <@jerith> | Also, when running an update in parallel across a vast number of machines and up to 10% of them require manual intervention afterwards, I'm disinclined to trust the package manager. |
| 19:47 | <@gnolam> | Is Feisty considered "stable" though? |
| 19:47 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: I kill -9'ed it once because it hung somewhere else. |
| 19:47 | <@jerith> | gnolam: It was released as stable over the weekend. |
| 19:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...nor has that ever happened; the only time it required manual intervention was when going from Core 3 to Core 6 in a single massive update. |
| 19:48 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: Half an hour of googling led me to the "reboot your box and it'll come right" thing. |
| 19:48 | <@jerith> | And I scoured ps for dodgy processes and stuff as well. |
| 19:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, in my experience yum has been quite stable, and on top of that I can actually find and install what I need using it, which is something that apt-get consistently fails at. |
| 19:49 | <@gnolam> | Ahh. |
| 19:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | And the ubuntu graphical package manager sucks even harder, it doesn't even list version numbers. |
| 19:49 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: I have found aptitude to be pretty good. Not perfect, but better than yum. |
| 19:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aptitude I don't think I've tried yet. |
| 19:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | I was planning to today, but Ubuntu no longer boots. |
| 19:50 | <@jerith> | (aptitude sits a level above apt, although it mostly invokes dpkg and friends directly, iirc.) |
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| --- Log closed Thu Apr 26 00:00:03 2007 |