| --- Log opened Tue Nov 07 00:00:06 2006 |
| --- Day changed Tue Nov 07 2006 |
| 00:00 | <@Vornicus> | Help me I have the Dragon Warrior song stuck in my head again. |
| 00:01 | | * ToxicFrog waves the Wing Commander soundtracks at Vorn |
| 00:04 | < Takyoji> | so what is the 'for' command used for in php? |
| 00:05 | | * Janus hums Mr. Wright's cross examination theme menacingly. |
| 00:06 | <@Vornicus> | for, in php, is used the same as for in other languages - generally, a loop of known extent. |
| 00:07 | < Takyoji> | It's just that, I dont necessarily understand what it could be used for |
| 00:08 | <@Vornicus> | have an array that you need to iterate over? for loop. |
| 00:12 | <@Vornicus> | generally it's a nicer way of describing a while loop where the determination of what's next is trivial; it puts all teh looping bits in one place, so the body is just what you want to do with it. |
| 00:12 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 00:13 | <@Vornicus> | in Python: |
| 00:13 | <@Vornicus> | for line in file: process(line) |
| 00:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Similarly in Lua. |
| 00:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | for key,value in pairs(table) do |
| 00:15 | <@Vornicus> | in Java, just to show you what the awful way looks like: for (int i = 0; i < a.length; i++) {a[i].process();} |
| 00:16 | <@McMartin> | Better! |
| 00:16 | <@Vornicus> | ? |
| 00:16 | <@McMartin> | for (Iterator i = a.iterator(); i.hasNext(); ) { Node n = (Node)(i.next()); n.process(); } |
| 00:16 | <@Vornicus> | heh |
| 00:17 | <@McMartin> | Though that one has a shortcut in 1.5 |
| 00:17 | <@Vornicus> | ...that's just crying. |
| 00:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 00:17 | <@McMartin> | And then there's the STL version, which looks sneakly like your first one but totally isn't and actually resolves to about 14 function calls, each of which has a name that is 250+ characters long |
| 00:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 00:17 | | * McMartin hates on C++ some more. |
| 00:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | (in bash: for i in *; do) |
| 00:18 | <@McMartin> | (Yeah, the Java 1.5 version is something like for (Node n: a) {n.process(); } |
| 00:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Takyoji: but, yes, generally a for loop is used when you have some kind of list - not necessarily an array, depending on the language - that you need to iterate over, or some operation that needs to be repeated a known number of times. |
| 00:18 | <@McMartin> | (I forget the exact syntax because I have to support 1.4) |
| 00:18 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 00:19 | <@McMartin> | In any event, neither C++ nor Java has a true native list type the way Python, Lua, bash, and PHP do |
| 00:19 | <@McMartin> | So you have to fake it with various objects. C++ hides this behind operator overloading which works great until you use a type wrong |
| 00:20 | <@McMartin> | (like saying p < end instead of p == end) |
| 00:20 | <@McMartin> | At which point everything dies in fire and incomprehensible error messages and source lines that do not appear in your debugger. |
| 00:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | And then it's all with the burning and the pain. |
| 00:21 | <@McMartin> | Java doesn't allow operator overloading for exactly that reason, which is why it had standard library classes to handle it (Iterator, Collection, etc.) |
| 00:21 | <@McMartin> | Java 1.5 just made the syntax a little more aware of the standard library, for slightly less burning pain. |
| 00:21 | <@McMartin> | Though I'm divided on whether it's actually a good idea or not. I suspect it is because it means you can do better type-checking at compile-time. |
| 00:21 | < Janus> | It's hard to imagine why one would want to compare two objects directly... |
| 00:22 | | * Vornicus gives Janus a pile of geometric numbers. |
| 00:22 | <@McMartin> | Janus: Strings are objects in many languages, Java and C++ included. |
| 00:22 | | * ToxicFrog gives Janus a pile of strings |
| 00:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | And Lua, for a value of object that means "garbage collected and passed by reference" |
| 00:23 | | * Vornicus gives Janus a pile of rational numbers, for something that many languages actually /do/ have. |
| 00:23 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyNap |
| 00:23 | | * Janus drowns in a pile of sundries. |
| 00:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | For added fun, in Lua at least it's possible to overload == to be instanceof. |
| 00:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | But I don't, because I want to maintain this code. |
| 00:25 | | * Vornicus likes operator overloads because he is usually writing scientific software. |
| 00:25 | | * McMartin is generally only OK with them when you can write your own. |
| 00:25 | | * Vornicus /dislikes/ operator overloads because without the guidance of what they're /called/, people keep /using them wrong/. |
| 00:26 | <@McMartin> | Hah |
| 00:26 | <@McMartin> | Only an idiot would make bit shifting be, like, output. |
| 00:26 | <@McMartin> | I mean, seriously. Who'd do that? |
| 00:26 | <@Vornicus> | WHich is why I like Python's operator overloading model. |
| 00:26 | <@Vornicus> | Har, har |
| 00:27 | <@McMartin> | What's particularly funny is how the C++ language description warns in dire terms against doing stupid things like that. |
| 00:27 | <@Vornicus> | Anyway Ruby at least does that bit right - you can shift to output, /or/ to a string, /or/ to an array, and it all works out. |
| 00:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | What's python's operator overloading model? |
| 00:27 | <@Vornicus> | __add__ |
| 00:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 00:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Lua's is the same, only without the trailing __. |
| 00:27 | <@Vornicus> | and then there's __iadd__ and __radd__ for augmented assign and adding backwards, in cases when you can't add the method to the thing you're adding /to/. |
| 00:28 | <@Vornicus> | well, "right" - I don't like shift-out/shift-in anyway, but at least in Ruby you can use it on everything you'd want to do that sort of crap to. |
| 00:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | add sub mul div mod exp unm eq lt le len concat index newindex call |
| 00:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | In Lua, operator overloads only go off if both involved objects have the same overload. |
| 00:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Trying to add (say) two things with a different conception of what __add is is an error. |
| 00:30 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | (which among other things means you can't implement cout in Lua) |
| 00:32 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:33 | <@Vornicus> | python you get dozens of special operators. |
| 00:33 | <@McMartin> | ML and LISP just let you define anything as such. |
| 00:35 | <@Vornicus> | The only thing I really miss from statically typed languages is overloading functions. |
| 00:36 | | Vornotron [~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #code |
| 00:37 | | Vornicus [~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 00:37 | | * Vornotron missed everything after "ML and LISP..." |
| 00:37 | < Vornotron> | The only thing I really miss from statically typed languages is overloading functions. |
| 00:37 | < Vornotron> | instead I end up with such madness as triple dispatch. |
| 00:40 | | Vornotron [~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 00:41 | | Vornicus [~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #code |
| 00:41 | | mode/#code [+o Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 00:41 | < Janus> | --strike three, and he's outta there! |
| 00:42 | | * Vornicus /stil/ missed everything after "ML and LISP..." |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | <McMartin> ML and LISP just let you define anything as such. |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | <Vornicus> The only thing I really miss from statically typed languages is overloading functions. |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | --> Vornotron (~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net) has joined #code |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | <-- Vornicus has quit (Connection reset by peer) |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | * Vornotron missed everything after "ML and LISP..." |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | <Vornotron> The only thing I really miss from statically typed languages is overloading functions. |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | <Vornotron> instead I end up with such madness as triple dispatch. |
| 00:43 | <@Vornicus> | ok |
| 00:43 | <@Vornicus> | nobody missed anything. |
| 00:45 | <@Vornicus> | ping? |
| 00:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | ECHO_RESPONSE |
| 00:45 | <@Vornicus> | yey |
| 00:46 | < Takyoji> | need some help: http://rafb.net/paste/results/ToTJ1b78.html |
| 00:47 | < Takyoji> | it's been boggling my mind for a couple hours now.. |
| 00:47 | <@Vornicus> | Does each parent have /one/ child? |
| 00:47 | < Takyoji> | actually, each parent will have multiple childrebn |
| 00:47 | < Takyoji> | from 0-infinite to be a little more precise |
| 00:47 | <@Vornicus> | okay. |
| 00:49 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 00:50 | <@Vornicus> | What you've got, then, is a tree. |
| 00:52 | < MyCatOwnz> | Vornicus: d'ya think I should name all my functions for recursively free()ing all members of a tree hierarchy after axes? |
| 00:57 | <@Vornicus> | MCO: not you. |
| 00:57 | <@Vornicus> | Takyoji |
| 01:00 | < Takyoji> | also, the data of that array will come from a mysql database from the categories table |
| 01:01 | <@Vornicus> | And the way to deal with a tree is through recursion. |
| 01:02 | <@Vornicus> | Wait - are there multiple roots? That is to say, is there more than one object that has no parent? |
| 01:05 | < Takyoji> | yes, multiple roots as well |
| 01:05 | <@Vornicus> | Okay. These are signified by having parent indices that don't exist as actual objects? |
| 01:06 | | * Vornicus Rubys. |
| 01:07 | < Takyoji> | sorry, reform the question. |
| 01:07 | < Takyoji> | simplify the question I mean |
| 01:08 | <@Vornicus> | I can distinguish a root by saying "does this object's parent index match the index of an existing object?" |
| 01:09 | < Takyoji> | oh |
| 01:10 | <@Vornicus> | Is that true? |
| 01:10 | < Takyoji> | I don't think so |
| 01:11 | <@Vornicus> | Then how do I tell what objects are roots? |
| 01:12 | < Takyoji> | the ones with the parent of 0 |
| 01:12 | <@Vornicus> | Okay. |
| 01:12 | <@Vornicus> | Then there is no object with an ID of 0? |
| 01:12 | < Takyoji> | correct |
| 01:12 | < Takyoji> | although.. you could add one |
| 01:13 | <@Vornicus> | Better if there is no such creature, actually |
| 01:13 | < Takyoji> | oh okay |
| 01:19 | < Janus> | I think I'm gonna cry~ |
| 01:20 | | * Janus just watched one of his munchkins walks /all/ the way around a huge obsticle to get to point B. |
| 01:20 | < Takyoji> | ;O |
| 01:20 | < MyCatOwnz> | Janus: pathfinding algorithm? Sweetness? |
| 01:20 | | ChalcyNap [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 01:20 | <@Vornicus> | /sweet/ |
| 01:20 | | * Takyoji gives Janus a Newbell prize |
| 01:20 | <@Vornicus> | Take some pictures. |
| 01:20 | <@Vornicus> | Then give the poor guy a maze. |
| 01:21 | | * Janus turns the alpha way down. |
| 01:21 | | mode/#code [+oooooo Ev3 EvilDarkLord Janus MyCatOwnz Raif Syloqs-AFH] by ReivIll |
| 01:22 | | mode/#code [+o Thaqui] by ReivIll |
| 01:22 | | mode/#code [+v KarmaBot] by ReivIll |
| 01:23 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Vornicus: cruel git =) |
| 01:23 | <@Vornicus> | ...also, god, that was so easy. |
| 01:23 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Wait, what? |
| 01:23 | | * MyCatOwnz pokes the +o with a stick. |
| 01:24 | <@Vornicus> | I can't test this code without data, but oh it's pretty. |
| 01:24 | <@ReivIll> | Feel free to remove it if it makes you feel awkward. |
| 01:24 | <@Vornicus> | http://rafb.net/paste/results/YjEGlG41.html |
| 01:24 | < Takyoji> | yay |
| 01:24 | <@Vornicus> | also it's in Ruby, but that just says volumes about Ruby. |
| 01:24 | <@Vornicus> | ...bah, forgot an initializer. |
| 01:24 | <@ReivIll> | Vorn: Shit like that makes you want to ask "Where's the catch", don't it? |
| 01:24 | < Takyoji> | oh crap *kicks self* I mean PHP, sorry |
| 01:25 | <@Vornicus> | I don't know PHP. |
| 01:25 | < Takyoji> | hmm |
| 01:25 | < Takyoji> | and I ironically don't know Ruby yet |
| 01:26 | <@Vornicus> | and i screwed it up anyway, because I do things backwards. |
| 01:26 | < Takyoji> | heh |
| 01:27 | <@Vornicus> | http://rafb.net/paste/results/pQ8UYn86.html <--- there, fixed. |
| --- Log closed Tue Nov 07 01:33:08 2006 |
| --- Log opened Tue Nov 07 01:33:42 2006 |
| 01:33 | | TheWatcher[zZzZ] [~chris@Nightstar-29731.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 01:33 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 20 nicks [16 ops, 0 halfops, 1 voices, 3 normal] |
| 01:34 | < Takyoji> | an extension of php? |
| 01:34 | <@McMartin> | I've got this really cool reflection-based Visitor class in Python. |
| 01:34 | | Irssi: Join to #code was synced in 23 secs |
| 01:34 | <@Vornicus> | I think it was actually my abortive attempt at Schlockian4, which suffered from scope sprint. |
| 01:35 | <@MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: do you happen to know C, perchance? I can give a quickly hacked-together example in that. |
| 01:35 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Errr, Takyoji, not ToxicFrog. >_< |
| 01:35 | <@McMartin> | TF decidedly knows C~ |
| 01:35 | < Takyoji> | sorry, I don't... |
| 01:36 | < Takyoji> | I've just been learning everything off of online documentation |
| 01:36 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Oh Heck yes. TF can code rings around me in C++ while decaffeinated and with two pencils in each ear. However, I meant that question for Takyoji instead =) |
| 01:36 | < Takyoji> | xD |
| 01:36 | <@McMartin> | http://www.stanford.edu/~mcmartin/if/nmt.html is a recursive Javascript function. |
| 01:36 | <@McMartin> | You'll have to call up the page-source, though. |
| 01:37 | <@McMartin> | (Disclaimer; this is a JS port of Chalain's Scheme implementation of it) |
| 01:37 | <@McMartin> | (I think. Either Chalain or EDL) |
| 01:37 | <@MyCatOwnz> | You could've shortened that to: (Disclaimer: contains JavaScript.) |
| 01:38 | <@Vornicus> | That page breaks pgdn in FF/Win |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | The purpose is to Ctrl-U it |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | And that's bizarre, because it doesn't break pgdn in FF/GNOME |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | And it's also bizarre, because it doesn't do anything more complicated than document.write(). |
| 01:40 | <@McMartin> | And now, omg teh dinnar |
| 01:41 | <@Vornicus> | omg omg |
| 01:41 | <@McMartin> | zomg! |
| 01:41 | <@McMartin> | zwtf! |
| 01:41 | <@McMartin> | zbbq! |
| 01:41 | < Takyoji> | omg wtf bbq! |
| 01:41 | <@Vornicus> | za/s/l? |
| 01:42 | < Takyoji> | dud3 like lolz! |
| 01:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | It doesn't break it in Opera/Linux either. |
| 01:43 | <@Vornicus> | weirdass |
| 01:43 | < Takyoji> | I doubt it but does anyone know of a good little webpage to learn fundamentals of php? |
| 01:43 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 01:43 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcedon] by ChanServ |
| 01:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Nyet, sorry. |
| 01:44 | < Takyoji> | crap.. |
| 01:45 | < Takyoji> | And I loathe the libraries in the local area, they don't have any programming books except for libertyBASIC |
| 01:46 | < Takyoji> | And there's no programming classes in my high school.. |
| 01:47 | <@Vornicus> | While I can't help you with PHP, some good primers as to programming in general are Learn To Program and the SICP lecture series (though SICP will kill you repeatedly if you don't take it slow and practice a lot.) |
| 01:48 | < Takyoji> | they are both books, correct? |
| 01:48 | <@Vornicus> | the SICP lecture series is actually videos. |
| 01:48 | <@Vornicus> | BOth are free on the web. |
| 01:48 | < Takyoji> | oh |
| 01:48 | < Takyoji> | form where? |
| 01:48 | < Takyoji> | from* |
| 01:49 | <@Vornicus> | http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ <--- this is SICP. It /will/ break your mind, but that's the point. |
| 01:49 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Takyoji: there's a Ruby introduction here http://poignantguide.net/ruby/ that I've heard is pretty good, if you want a language that won't hurt your brain. |
| 01:49 | <@Vornicus> | http://pine.fm/LearnToProgram/ <--- Learn to Program |
| 01:49 | <@Vornicus> | and DO NOT FREAKING USE THE POIGNANT GUIDE TO LEARN TO PROGRAM |
| 01:50 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Takyoji: also, take Vornicus' advice over mine. |
| 01:50 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Vornicus: care to explain why not? Having not used it, I honestly don't know. |
| 01:51 | | * MyCatOwnz basically learned pretty much everything he knows (read: not much) from K&R and "Thinking in C++" :/ |
| 01:52 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Also, everything I write can easily be lumped into one of two categories: a) trivial b) steaming pile of segfault. :( |
| 01:52 | <@Vornicus> | It gets some things wrong, and dumps it all into a format that's rather hard to pick the good bits out of. |
| 01:52 | < Takyoji> | holy crap.. the video series is 8 hours to download |
| 01:53 | <@Vornicus> | They're not small. |
| 01:53 | < Takyoji> | apparently |
| 01:53 | <@Vornicus> | use the standard divx mirror - the torrents are not populated at all. |
| 01:53 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Takyoji: a) stick to the torrents b) stick to the DivX, do *not* download the MPEG versions. |
| 01:53 | < Takyoji> | oh, |
| 01:53 | <@Vornicus> | pff |
| 01:53 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Okay, well, a) kinda doesn't apply when there's no one seeding, I guess. Heh. |
| 01:53 | <@Vornicus> | quitting time. |
| 01:54 | | Vornicus [~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ] |
| 01:54 | < Takyoji> | so open the avi in divx? |
| 01:54 | <@MyCatOwnz> | (In my defence, 99% of the time, torrents are faster because the vast majority of people don't have the cash to fund enormous outgoing traffic.) |
| 01:55 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Mmmmmyep. Er, it ought to work just dandy in normal WMP, if you have the DivX codec installed... |
| 01:58 | <@Janus> | Just a small question... |
| 01:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Takyoji: open the AVI in anything that supports the DivX codec. |
| 01:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | VLC (www.videolan.org) works handily. |
| 01:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Better than the DivX player, for that matter. |
| 01:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, SICP is not just lectures. |
| 01:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's also a book. |
| 01:59 | <@Janus> | What should I suggest to someone who knows nothing about programming that wants to start...? |
| 01:59 | < Takyoji> | heh woah' |
| 01:59 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Janus: break down in tears in front of them. |
| 01:59 | < Takyoji> | exactly! |
| 01:59 | < Takyoji> | j/k |
| 02:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html#%_toc_start <-- Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs |
| 02:00 | < Takyoji> | oo |
| 02:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Note that this is not a replacement for the lectures, nor vice versa. |
| 02:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Janus: good question. |
| 02:02 | < Takyoji> | so its basically the text version? |
| 02:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Takyoji: no, that is the exact opposite of what I just said. |
| 02:02 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: good question, bad timing~] |
| 02:02 | < Takyoji> | oh |
| 02:06 | < Takyoji> | thanks for all the resources |
| 02:08 | < Takyoji> | crap, the first video link is broken >.> |
| 02:09 | < Takyoji> | I guess it works |
| 02:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | The torrents worked fine for me. |
| 02:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | (the DivX torrents, that is) |
| 02:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | I don't know about the direct links. |
| 02:10 | < Takyoji> | oh wait, so.. load the torrents in VLC media player? o.O |
| 02:11 | < Takyoji> | I suppose its better to download it anyway |
| 02:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | ....noooo |
| 02:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | You load the torrents in your bittorrent client. |
| 02:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Once the AVIs they supply are finished downloaded, you feed those to VLC. |
| 02:14 | < Takyoji> | otherwise, I'll use shareaza to downlaod |
| 02:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's probably not on that! |
| 02:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Unless that's a bittorrent client I've never heard of. |
| 02:15 | < Takyoji> | it is |
| 02:16 | < Takyoji> | its someones version of KaZaA without the strings attached, with a bittorrent part. |
| 02:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | aah. |
| 02:16 | | * ToxicFrog uses rtorrent. |
| 02:16 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 02:16 | < Takyoji> | by the way, does limewire include adware/spyware? |
| 02:16 | | * MyCatOwnz uses the bloody ncurses interface to the Python client, you hippies. ^_^ |
| 02:16 | < Takyoji> | because a friend of mine uses limewire |
| 02:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. As I said, I haven't had any problems with the DivX torrents. I have never tried the HTTP downloads of same. And there is no reason to download the MPEG versions. |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | MCO: clearly you've never used rtorrent. |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Have a screenshot: |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | *** rTorrent 0.6.2 - libTorrent 0.10.2 *** |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | [View: main] |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | OverClocked ReMix OCR00001 to OCR01000 |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | [CLOSED] done 3195.1 MB Rate: 0.0 / 0.0 KB Uploaded: 48.0 MB [TI R: 0.01] |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Inactive: |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | * OverClocked ReMix OCR01001 to OCR01500 |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | * [CLOSED] done 2321.3 MB Rate: 0.0 / 0.0 KB Uploaded: 57.2 MB [TI R: 0.02] |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | * Inactive: |
| 02:17 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Takyoji: signs point to "Yes." (read: I dunno, but probably. Most filesharing clients do.) |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | And I really have no idea on Limewire. Never used it. |
| 02:18 | <@MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: sounds fun. I'll have to try it out some time. |
| 02:18 | | * ToxicFrog finds that it gives vastly better performance than the python client and is more configurable. |
| 02:18 | <@MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: rtorrent is one of the ones written in C, right? |
| 02:20 | <@MyCatOwnz> | Should be a little nicer to my P1 than the official client, heh. ^_^ |
| 02:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | MCO: yes. Written in C using libtorrent for the torrent engine and libcurses for the UI. |
| 02:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Scales well for large numbers of torrents and appears to do hash checks about five times faster than the python client. |
| 02:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Bascically it has all the nice features of Azureus with none of the memory overhead. |
| 02:22 | | * ToxicFrog has seen it top out at around 30MB, when running fourteen torrents... |
| 02:27 | < Takyoji> | oooo |
| 02:28 | <@MyCatOwnz> | So, the hard disk activity it causes depends mainly on your connection's throughput rather than the quantity of free physical memory you have on hand? How useful =) |
| 02:38 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] |
| 02:40 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 02:40 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 02:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | MCO: well, in my case I have 4GB of main memory, so it's not ever going to be hitting swap. |
| 02:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | But yes. |
| 02:53 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: and my hobby box has, um, sixty four. Maybe. |
| 02:54 | < MyCatOwnz> | Oh dear. I'm tempted to use a goto here. |
| 03:05 | | * Takyoji watchs the matrix on VLC media player |
| 03:05 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 03:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | 64GB? |
| 03:06 | < Takyoji> | Are you talking about RAM or a harddrive size? |
| 03:06 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 03:07 | <@McMartin> | Are the SICP lectures just a recording of a 6.001 class? |
| 03:07 | < Takyoji> | I haven't fully downloaded a chapter yet |
| 03:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Takyoji: RAM. |
| 03:08 | < Takyoji> | woah, still.. 4GB of RAM is still alot to me |
| 03:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's a lot in general. |
| 03:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's the upper limit of what a 32bit system can address. |
| 03:08 | < Takyoji> | I've only got like.. 768MB |
| 03:08 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 03:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | My gaming rig has 1GB. |
| 03:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | As for hard drive space...I have about 745GB between all my machines. |
| 03:09 | < Takyoji> | I just really need a good graphics card basically or CPU. Because all I mostly do is work in 3DS MAX |
| 03:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not counting the 36GB in Erin, since it's currently nonfunctional. |
| 03:10 | < Takyoji> | I've got 80GB, but its quite full, I have to delete stuff to put more stuff on |
| 03:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | And it's almost full, I've got less than 150GB left ;.; |
| 03:11 | | * MyCatOwnz glances down at his machine. |
| 03:11 | < Takyoji> | heh |
| 03:11 | < MyCatOwnz> | 256 megs in the one box, 64 in the other. |
| 03:11 | <@McMartin> | Note that most OSes out there default only to 2GB of addressable memory because they use the top bit to indicate "am I in kernel space or app space?" |
| 03:11 | < MyCatOwnz> | A pair of 40 gig hard disks between them. |
| 03:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I /think/ Linux allows 4GB addressable, but I don't think I've ever even come close to 2GB of app memory. |
| 03:12 | < MyCatOwnz> | Upshot is, I'm never going to deliberately write a program that generates terrabytes of output or crunches gigabytes of RAM this way ^_^ |
| 03:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Most of the time it's 400MB tops, most of that Opera, and ~3GB used for filesystem buffers and caching. |
| 03:13 | <@McMartin> | There are switchs you can throw in the kernel config for 3 GB or 3.5GB for apps. |
| 03:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | I never get tired of seeing 3GB in use for cache and still having more free memory than all my other systems but Durandal, /including/ Orias' previous incarnation, combined. |
| 03:13 | <@McMartin> | It uses all 4 GB of address space, but you have to reserve some for th ekernel. |
| 03:13 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 03:13 | | * ToxicFrog nods. |
| 03:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | I just don't know how much it reserves. |
| 03:15 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 03:16 | <@McMartin> | 2 GB by default, but it's configurable. |
| 03:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, it got by on 192MB + 1GB swap for two years, I don't anticipate it hitting 2GB anytime soon. |
| 03:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | This implies that not all the filesystem cache blocks are in kernelspace, though. |
| 03:20 | | * MyCatOwnz actually has no clue whatsoever about how good/bad Linux is at filesystem cacheing and memory management. |
| 03:21 | < MyCatOwnz> | All I know is that a) the hard disk almost never goes off loudly enough to be audiable and b) the only things that ever touch the swapfile are overly ambitious videogames and copies of Firefox that've gotten way out of hand. |
| 03:25 | <@McMartin> | TF: I believe "udev" is so named because it keeps /dev in userspace. |
| 03:25 | | * McMartin could be wrong there. |
| 03:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Firefox gets way out of hand really easily. |
| 03:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: the thing is, I typically have at least 3GB of buffers and 300MB of cache. |
| 03:28 | < Takyoji> | well, night folks |
| 03:28 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25280.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 03:28 | <@McMartin> | Heh. FC6 apparently ships with lua installed by default. |
| 03:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | So unless this kernel has been configured at compile time to reserve less memory than 2GB, some of those are in kernelspace and some are in userspace. |
| 03:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | FC5 has it in the repos. |
| 03:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's not a readline-based build, though. Boo hiss. |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | FC6's appears to be readline-based. |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | At least, command history works. |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Sweet. |
| 03:32 | < MyCatOwnz> | McMartin: could also stand for "universal" or some such thing. Have you ever played with it much? |
| 03:32 | <@McMartin> | I recall when it was becoming standard |
| 03:32 | < MyCatOwnz> | You can use it to automatically create symlinks based on the properties that appear in the /sys virtual filesystem. |
| 03:33 | <@McMartin> | "udev executes entirely in user space, as opposed to devfs' kernel space. One consequence is that udev moved the naming policy out of the kernel and can run arbitrary programs to compose a name for the device from the device's properties, before the node is created." |
| 03:33 | < MyCatOwnz> | And to automatically impose settings, change device node names, et cetera. |
| 03:33 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #code |
| 03:33 | <@McMartin> | It may not stand for userspace, but it does run there. |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | MCO: [root@leela ben]# man -k udev |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | ata_id (8) - udev callout to read product/serial number from ATA drives |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | edd_id (8) - udev callout to identify BIOS disk drives via EDD |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | udev (7) - dynamic device management |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | udev (rpm) - A userspace implementation of devfs |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 03:34 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: ...why're you quoting the apropos list at me, exactly? |
| 03:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | "A userspace implementation of devfs" |
| 03:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | You were asking. |
| 03:34 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: no, I wasn't. |
| 03:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | <MyCatOwnz> McMartin: could also stand for "universal" or some such thing. Have you ever played with it much? |
| 03:34 | < MyCatOwnz> | McMartin: jarrr, it has a lot of other uses, but being able to create symlinks on the fly based on various rules is its most important one. |
| 03:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Was that not an implicit request for clarification on the memory space udev runs in? |
| 03:35 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: notice which of the two sentences I put the question mark on? I meant to imply that I didn't really care in the first instance since it'll probably never cause confusion. The other question was the one I was interested in an answer to :) |
| 03:37 | < MyCatOwnz> | McMartin: e.g. I put the following rule into the file /etc/udev/rules.d/10-local.udev.rules: |
| 03:37 | < MyCatOwnz> | DRIVERS=="usb-storage", SYMLINK+="thumbdrive" |
| 03:38 | < MyCatOwnz> | That way it'll always put a symlink to any USB stick I plug into the machine at the same place every time (/dev/thumbdrive) irrespective of what other SCSI devices might or might not be in the box or emulated. |
| 03:39 | < MyCatOwnz> | Which is handy for writing /etc/fstab entries, since I can point them at the (stable) symlink instead of the (nondeterministic) device node. ^_^ |
| 03:39 | | * McMartin mostly just relies on Fedora's/Ubuntu's handlings thereof |
| 03:39 | < MyCatOwnz> | Also, that's the lazy way to do it. You can quite easily do a much better job than I did, and give yourself the ability to support more than one USB stick plugged in simultaneously. I am very lazy, however. |
| 03:40 | <@McMartin> | (Which doesn't generally allow that because it names the mountpoint the volume name.) |
| 03:40 | <@McMartin> | (Though if you mount the same drive repeatedly it stays stable) |
| 03:41 | < MyCatOwnz> | I don't know. I understand that there is some kind of events subsystem associated with udev that you can use to manage hotplugged drives by their disklabels. |
| 03:42 | | * McMartin shrugs |
| 03:49 | | * MyCatOwnz wonders why in the Sam Hill gcc didn't scream blue murder at him for failing to initialise a variable. Hmmm. |
| 03:49 | < MyCatOwnz> | Or, Hell, this completely unused variable over here. Buh? |
| 03:49 | < MyCatOwnz> | Or perhaps I was too lazy to read the warnings. Heh. |
| 03:53 | < MyCatOwnz> | Hmmm. Latter option. Whoopsy daisy. |
| 03:53 | | * Stephenie pokes Ben "its important OMG" lol |
| 03:54 | < MyCatOwnz> | Stephenie: at the risk of sounding like a dork (which would be an accurate assessment, really), "No disassemble!" |
| 03:55 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 03:55 | <@Stephenie> | lol I am an even bigger dork then because I dont know what you mean by that :) |
| 03:55 | <@Stephenie> | all that pops into my head is Johnny 5 |
| 03:55 | <@Stephenie> | :) |
| 03:55 | < MyCatOwnz> | Stephenie: which is exactly what I was referring to, heh =) |
| 03:56 | <@Stephenie> | :) |
| 03:56 | <@Stephenie> | Well then I caught it ... and your not a dork ... great movies :) |
| 03:57 | | * MyCatOwnz nods. |
| 03:57 | | * Vornicus-Latens disassembles MCO |
| 03:57 | | * Vornicus-Latens then goes the hell to bed. |
| 03:57 | < MyCatOwnz> | The second one suffered from the lack of laser cannon, but the whole hangliding thing kinda made up for it. |
| 03:57 | | * MyCatOwnz dies, horribly. |
| 03:57 | <@Stephenie> | :/ |
| 03:57 | | * Stephenie puts mycatownz back together |
| 03:59 | | * MyCatOwnz looks down. |
| 03:59 | < MyCatOwnz> | Whoa, crikey. Nicely done. |
| 03:59 | <@Stephenie> | oops sorry put your eyeyball on your belly |
| 03:59 | | * Stephenie fixes it |
| 03:59 | < MyCatOwnz> | Thought my depth perception seemed a bit out... =) |
| 04:03 | <@Stephenie> | lol |
| 04:05 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 04:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...I thought of ndisasm. |
| 04:06 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: 14%] |
| 04:06 | | * Stephenie throws a pillow at Ben |
| 04:06 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 04:06 | | Mischief [~34534@Nightstar-3282.ashbva.adelphia.net] has left #Code [] |
| 04:20 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Operation timed out] |
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| 04:27 | | * Stephenie puts a weight around mycatownz leg so he/she will stay still |
| 04:45 | < MyCatOwnz> | He. |
| 04:45 | < MyCatOwnz> | And as much as I'd love to, my internet connection doesn't seem to want that. |
| 04:46 | <@Stephenie> | lol |
| 04:46 | <@Stephenie> | well then |
| 04:46 | | * Stephenie kicks your ISP |
| 04:46 | <@Stephenie> | kicking always makes things better :) |
| 04:46 | < MyCatOwnz> | Heh, yes. I'd love to kick BT. However, they're just a bit big for me to be able to get my leg around. |
| 04:47 | < MyCatOwnz> | Mainly it's the bloody noisy phone line in here, I think. |
| 04:47 | < MyCatOwnz> | With any luck we'll get getting a leased line in here by Christmas, at any rate. ^_^ |
| 04:48 | <@Stephenie> | yay! |
| 04:53 | < MyCatOwnz> | Yep. 10 megabits both ways, between twenty nine people. |
| 04:54 | < MyCatOwnz> | Quite frankly, rockingness for someone who's never had a home pipe wider than a half a meg =) |
| 04:55 | <@Stephenie> | lol |
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| 05:29 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 05:29 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcedon] by ChanServ |
| 05:35 | | * Chalcedon eyes |
| 05:35 | <@McMartin> | SPEAK |
| 05:36 | | * Chalcedon hides |
| 05:36 | <@ReivIll> | ! |
| 05:37 | <@Chalcedon> | what is Karmabot? |
| 05:37 | <@ReivIll> | A bot |
| 05:37 | <@ReivIll> | !24/7 |
| 05:37 | <+KarmaBot> | [ReivIll] 24/7 = 3.428571. |
| 05:37 | <@ReivIll> | Which actually handles decimals. |
| 05:37 | <@Chalcedon> | ah |
| 05:38 | <@Chalcedon> | I was confused, for some reason I thought I was in #highroad. |
| 05:38 | <@Chalcedon> | however I am pleased to meet KarmaBot, Schlocks inability to deal with decimals is irritating. |
| 05:38 | <@Chalcedon> | (or rather can be irritating) |
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| 08:04 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyZzz |
| 08:45 | | Mahal is now known as MahalSleep |
| 08:57 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| --- Log closed Tue Nov 07 14:00:12 2006 |
| --- Log opened Tue Nov 07 14:00:28 2006 |
| 14:00 | | TheWatcher [~chris@Nightstar-29731.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 14:00 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 15 nicks [9 ops, 0 halfops, 1 voices, 5 normal] |
| 14:00 | | mode/#code [+o TheWatcher] by ChanServ |
| 14:00 | | Irssi: Join to #code was synced in 25 secs |
| 14:25 | | ReivZzz is now known as ReivSLEP |
| 14:27 | | KBot [~fark.off@Nightstar-29108.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #Code |
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| 14:28 | | KBot is now known as KarmaBot |
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| 16:19 | | * jerith stabs XML. |
| 16:30 | | * jerith then stabs people who pack stuff in XML for no good reason. |
| 16:39 | | EvilDarkLord [althalas@Nightstar-17046.a80-186-184-83.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 16:48 | | * jerith *then* stabs all the arbitrary-seeming restrictions in XSD. |
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| 17:20 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
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| 17:34 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcy] by ChanServ |
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| 19:54 | | * Vornicus randomly wonders why on earth it's called a "nosegay" |
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| 20:59 | | matthajja [~carina24@207.188.92.ns-12925] has joined #Code |
| 21:00 | < matthajja> | Must go today now 1 dell xps m1710 laptop with shipping and carry case price 700, 1 apple ipod new, price 250 with shpping, 1 BFG Nvidia geforce 7950 PCIE video card price 300 with shipping, 1 dell 23" monitor/tv combination: price 350. message a i m at polter1981 (one word) or msn at just it 1981 at hot mail dot com PAY PAL ACCEPTED |
| 21:00 | | mode/#code [+b *!*@207.188.92] by Vornicus |
| 21:01 | | matthajja was kicked from #code by Vornicus [believe it or not, we don't care.] |
| 21:03 | < MyCatOwnz> | Especially if'n s/he's not even going to give better than retail prices anway. ;) |
| 21:04 | < EvilDarkLord> | I think 'it' is the correct form for bots. |
| 21:05 | | ThaquiSleep is now known as Thaqui |
| 21:05 | < MyCatOwnz> | I think "caveat emptor" is the correct form for bots working on behalf of Nigereans. |
| 21:14 | | McMartin [~mcmartin@Nightstar-9000.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #code |
| 21:14 | | mode/#code [+o McMartin] by ChanServ |
| 21:34 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25280.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #code |
| 22:06 | < Takyoji> | some people are quite stupid |
| 22:07 | < Takyoji> | For example, someone trys typing all the keywords several times of what they want to be searched for, the make the font white and put in on a white background |
| 22:07 | < Takyoji> | http://www.metrowestwatergardendesigns.com/AboutUs.aspx |
| 22:07 | < Takyoji> | (very bottom) |
| 22:08 | < Takyoji> | sorry that I had the urge to say that, it just drives me a little nuts |
| 22:10 | < MyCatOwnz> | Takyoji: ultimate defacement for that site would be for someone to replace that whole white text block with "NAMBLA" over and over again. |
| 22:11 | < MyCatOwnz> | Takyoji: betcha the site's owners would fail to notice it for several months running. |
| 22:11 | < Takyoji> | heh |
| 22:11 | < Takyoji> | true |
| 22:11 | < MyCatOwnz> | They should be shot for poor accessibility, mind. |
| 22:12 | < MyCatOwnz> | I cannot see that possibly failing to royally fuck over anyone using a screen reader. |
| 22:12 | < Takyoji> | And that's the most ghetto way to do that.. I would have rather used PHP to show the keywords when google or yahoo visits it. |
| 22:12 | < MyCatOwnz> | Heh, cruel ^_^ |
| 22:12 | < Takyoji> | xD true |
| 22:12 | < Takyoji> | I just drives me made when slums do such things though |
| 22:13 | < MyCatOwnz> | Well, y'know. |
| 22:13 | < MyCatOwnz> | They'll die someday. |
| 22:13 | < Janus> | Comforting~ |
| 22:13 | < MyCatOwnz> | Makes me wish for the good old days of the dotcom boom, back when you could rest assured that every fuckwit with an HTTPD was going to go bankrupt in a few months anyway ^_^ |
| 22:13 | < Takyoji> | Its also halarious to see how most pond contractor's website are, some just make my eyes bleed because how horrible they made it |
| 22:13 | < Takyoji> | xD Indeed they'll die |
| 22:14 | < Takyoji> | Here's the website I'm primarily focused on working on: http://aquaeden.com |
| 22:14 | < Takyoji> | Basically my brother started a pond construction business and I've been helping him with the website, business cards, and so on |
| 22:15 | < MyCatOwnz> | Sounds fun. |
| 22:16 | < Takyoji> | yea, but we're in Minnesota, and its getting to the point where we have to stop contracting ponds this winter |
| 22:16 | < Takyoji> | this year's is actually our first business year |
| 22:19 | <@Vornicus> | "contracting ponds"? |
| 22:19 | < MyCatOwnz> | Ah, yes. Weather can cause something of a predicament. |
| 22:19 | < Takyoji> | Otherwise, we are a member of the IPPCA (Internation Professional Pond Contractor Association). But basically the case is, is that a guy made the website, then when the owner of the business wanted something added to the website, he'd have to wait like a month and so on. Anyway.. there's a directory of the pond contractors which can only be access through a form drop-down menu, so basically Google doesn't see the directory so I th |
| 22:19 | < Takyoji> | ought of making a script to make an XML Google sitemap of the directory. |
| 22:20 | < Takyoji> | And google's been a bitch lately on indexing our website |
| 22:21 | < Takyoji> | Our business name is 'Aqua Eden', and earlier when you search it, we'd either be the first result, or we wouldn't be in the search results at all. And lately, we haven't been in the search results at all for a few weeks now' |
| 22:21 | < MyCatOwnz> | Sounds pretty awful. Can you get the IPPCA to link to a website you build yourself instead of having to go through them for every change? |
| 22:23 | < Takyoji> | actually, he's just using FrontPage now for his 'InfoTanza' website which looks kinda crudy |
| 22:23 | < Takyoji> | one sec |
| 22:23 | < Takyoji> | http://ippca.com and http://infotanza.com are the websites I'm talking about |
| 22:25 | < MyCatOwnz> | Excuse me if I refrain from clicking, I'm allergic to Frontpage. |
| 22:26 | < Takyoji> | sadly I do use frontpage to make the general HTML content, then edit it in Crimpson Editor for php |
| 22:26 | < Takyoji> | I know HTML but would rather construct it using a UI directed program |
| 22:27 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 22:27 | < Takyoji> | THe IPPCA page isn't frontpage though |
| 22:28 | | * Vornicus personally prefers Dreamweaver for HTML editing with live updating... but he can still make its engine choke. |
| 22:36 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ~] |
| 22:40 | | Chalcy [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 22:40 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcy] by ChanServ |
| 22:42 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 22:43 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 22:45 | < Takyoji> | quick poll: How many applications do you have on your computer? |
| 22:45 | < MyCatOwnz> | 1906 |
| 22:45 | < MyCatOwnz> | 83 |
| 22:45 | < MyCatOwnz> | 1906 in /usr/bin, 83 in /bin. |
| 22:46 | < MyCatOwnz> | Not counting the stuff in /opt. |
| 22:46 | <@TheWatcher> | ... I have no idea |
| 22:46 | < Takyoji> | I mean.. of what you use to create things |
| 22:46 | < Takyoji> | that are optional |
| 22:46 | < Takyoji> | not like notepad.. |
| 22:46 | < MyCatOwnz> | Takyoji: "vim" |
| 22:47 | < MyCatOwnz> | Takyoji: that's about it, unless you include the GNU compiler collection. |
| 22:47 | < Takyoji> | Yea, I suppose mine could be around a 1000.. |
| 22:47 | < Takyoji> | well.. more like.. 500 |
| 22:47 | < Takyoji> | but damn.. |
| 22:47 | < ToxicFrog> | Umm. |
| 22:47 | < ToxicFrog> | This really depends on how you define "application". |
| 22:48 | < ToxicFrog> | Does stuff that came with the system count? Does stuff that would have if I had chosen a different install preset count? |
| 22:48 | < ToxicFrog> | Do games count? |
| 22:48 | < ToxicFrog> | Does stuff that I never use even though it's installed count? |
| 22:48 | < ToxicFrog> | Presumably we're only counting interactive stuff here, not daemons... |
| 22:49 | < Takyoji> | I'm actually not sure myself |
| 22:49 | < Takyoji> | more like.. production programs |
| 22:49 | < ToxicFrog> | Just counting binaries is kind of a wacky way to do things, especially if you're just ls /bin | wc -l because a lot of those are symlinks. |
| 22:49 | < Takyoji> | dreamweaver, nedit, ms c++ studio, erm |
| 22:50 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: heh, busted! =D |
| 22:50 | < MyCatOwnz> | /usr/bin goes down 1771 if we knock out all the symlinks, apparently. ;) |
| 22:50 | < ToxicFrog> | If you mean "non-game, interactive programs that I use to actually build stuff"...Ok, NEdit definitely. What about the C/++ build paths? Does X11 count since NEdit depends on it and it has to be installed seperately on windows? |
| 22:51 | < ToxicFrog> | A better question would probably be "what apps do you use for <insert fairly specific task here>", I think. |
| 22:51 | < Takyoji> | yea |
| 22:52 | < Takyoji> | or how many applications do you averagely use a day, although.. that would be very varible |
| 22:52 | < ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 22:52 | < Takyoji> | or how many applications are you using at this moment? |
| 22:52 | | * ToxicFrog does a quick count. |
| 22:52 | < Takyoji> | daily basis: about.. 11 |
| 22:53 | < Takyoji> | right now: 9 |
| 22:53 | < MyCatOwnz> | Five. Music Playing Daemon, Firefox, GNU screen, VIM and irssi. |
| 22:53 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 22:53 | | * Stephenie messes Bens counting up |
| 22:53 | < ToxicFrog> | XChat, Opera, Thunderbird, Firefox, rtorrent, top, bash (x20 or so), winamp, gaim, procexp. |
| 22:54 | < ToxicFrog> | Ten uniques. |
| 22:54 | < ToxicFrog> | Eleven if we count Steam. |
| 22:54 | < Takyoji> | MSN Messenger, X-Chat, Internet Explorer, Shareaza, Firefox (ironically two internet browsers at once), Crimpson Editor and... |
| 22:54 | < ToxicFrog> | Twelve if I'm writing code, because then NEdit comes into play. |
| 22:54 | < Takyoji> | I'm not much of a computer FPS guy.. |
| 22:54 | < ToxicFrog> | (if we count the build system as a seperate app, thirteen) |
| 22:54 | < ToxicFrog> | Where do FPSen come into it? |
| 22:55 | < Takyoji> | just steam I mean |
| 22:55 | < ToxicFrog> | ...and? |
| 22:55 | < Takyoji> | I just usually get games from Maxis for computer games.. I'm do more of counsole gaming |
| 22:55 | | Chalcy is now known as Chalcedon |
| 22:56 | < Takyoji> | I mean.. I don't play anything that has to be authenticated by Steam |
| 22:56 | | * ToxicFrog has, currently installed in Steam, seven FPSes, a tactics game, a sidescroller, a 3d platformer, a strategy game, a sandbox game, and an FPS/RTS hybrid. |
| 22:56 | < Takyoji> | ooo |
| 22:56 | < ToxicFrog> | And there's a fair bit more variety that I haven't bought and/or installed, too. |
| 22:56 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 22:56 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 22:57 | < Takyoji> | I've got $300 and don't know what to do with it yet xD |
| 22:57 | < ToxicFrog> | I mean, just from a quick glance...Pirates!, a first-person RPG, a city builder, several 4Xes, a tank sim, two naval sims - sorry, four - two space exploration games, a bunch of overpriced minigames from Popcap... |
| 22:58 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 22:58 | < Takyoji> | SimCity games are enjoyable |
| 22:58 | < MyCatOwnz> | What on Earth is an FPS/RTS hybrid? |
| 22:59 | < MyCatOwnz> | Natural Selection or something like that? |
| 22:59 | < ToxicFrog> | They don't have any SimFoo games, but they have a citybuilder along SimCityish lines. |
| 22:59 | < ToxicFrog> | MCO: Natural Selection, in this case. |
| 22:59 | < MyCatOwnz> | Ah. |
| 22:59 | < ToxicFrog> | Battlezone would be similar, but not exactly that genre. |
| 22:59 | < ToxicFrog> | There are other RTS/FPS games that I can't remember the name of because I haven't played them. |
| 22:59 | < MyCatOwnz> | That's silly for playin' when you have a newbie in the command seat and only *two* of you on the marine team in total. |
| 22:59 | < Takyoji> | Here's my deviantART if anyone's curious: http://takyoji.deviantart.com/ |
| 23:00 | < ToxicFrog> | And at least one RTS/space combat game that would kick a lot of ass if it had three times as many players. |
| 23:00 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: yarrr, but a *lot* of FPS/RTS games have been made over the years which are basically identical in concept to NS =) |
| 23:00 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 23:00 | < ToxicFrog> | Anyways. The point I was trying to make with all this is that there's a lot more on Steam than just FPSes, and I highly recommend it. |
| 23:00 | < ToxicFrog> | I mean, come on, Psychonauts |
| 23:00 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: I mean, there was that "Spawn" thing back on either Q1 or Q2 (can't remember which) and so on. |
| 23:00 | < MyCatOwnz> | ...what's Psychonauts? |
| 23:00 | < ToxicFrog> | |
| 23:01 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | |
| 23:01 | < ToxicFrog> | Psychonauts is a /brilliant/ 3d platformer/puzzle game by the same warped minds that brought us Grim Fandango and Full Throttle. |
| 23:01 | < MyCatOwnz> | Don't look at me like that. I haven't played any games released more recently than 2002-ish at the latest. |
| 23:02 | < MyCatOwnz> | Also, I've missed out of *loads* of real classics, Grim Fandango and the like. =) |
| 23:02 | < ToxicFrog> | Despite being composed of high-purity awesome it sold terribly and has now been re-released on Steam. |
| 23:02 | < ToxicFrog> | Grim Fandango, personally, I hated. |
| 23:02 | < ToxicFrog> | Beautiful concept, but wrapped around it was an interface that only a sociopath could love. |
| 23:02 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | the controls do not help it |
| 23:03 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | but, bed... |
| 23:03 | < ToxicFrog> | It also doesn't work properly on 2k, but this is secondary to the control scheme, which was designed by creatures from outside space and time who hold in their hearts nothing but a burning hatred for all that lives. |
| 23:03 | < ToxicFrog> | <-- slightly bitter |
| 23:04 | < ToxicFrog> | Psychonauts, however, simply rocks. |
| 23:04 | < ToxicFrog> | I want to see more awesome games that sold poorly re-released on Steam. |
| 23:06 | < ToxicFrog> | (well, actually, no, what I want to see is everything released since 1990 or so ported to Linux and released on Steam-for-Linux (which doesn't exist yet) with complete source code, especially including System Shock but not excluding Wing Commander, Strike Force Centauri, and so forth. However, I will stick to what is vaguely plausible.) |
| 23:06 | < aoanla> | It worked for Darwinia, too. |
| 23:06 | < ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 23:06 | < ToxicFrog> | What was it, more sales in the first week on Steam than in the first three months at retail? |
| 23:06 | < aoanla> | Something of that magnitude, yeah. |
| 23:08 | | * MyCatOwnz ponders. |
| 23:08 | < MyCatOwnz> | Would Steam for Linux be feasible, though? I mean in terms of the fact that a lot of Valve's flagship games seem to use DirectX exclusively. |
| 23:09 | < ToxicFrog> | MCO: Steam is independent of the games it runs. |
| 23:09 | < MyCatOwnz> | I mean, I think they do. If'n I'm talking bullshit and Half-Life 2 really *does* have OpenGL support then I'll just STFU. |
| 23:09 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: I understand that, but would they ever bother to write a Steam client on Linux without any games to run on it initially? |
| 23:10 | < MyCatOwnz> | Hmmmm, that might be a half-decent-ish project to try sometime, come to think of it. |
| 23:10 | < aoanla> | You mean, like Darwinia, which has a Linux port? |
| 23:10 | < ToxicFrog> | All it would take to port Steam to Linux, I think (assuming that most of it was written in a portable manner, which is probably not the case, but let's just pretend) would be the built-in browser and the media system (the latter of which is Fucking Broken (tm) and needs a rewrite no matter what OS) |
| 23:10 | < aoanla> | Or do you mean actual Valve games? |
| 23:10 | < ToxicFrog> | A bunch of the games on Steam, including Darwinia and Uplink, have Linux native ports. |
| 23:10 | | * Vornicus <3 Darwinia, should buy the full game. |
| 23:10 | < MyCatOwnz> | aoanla: touché. I was thinking mainly of the Valve games. |
| 23:10 | < ToxicFrog> | And all of the media they offer and some of the non-game software (dedicated servers, SDKs, etc) is platform agnostic. |
| 23:11 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: I'm going to have to disagree with you on that point. I really don't think Steam should be ported, but rather rewritten from the ground up. |
| 23:11 | < ToxicFrog> | Why? |
| 23:11 | < ToxicFrog> | I mean, in reality it'll probably have to be, but in principle that shouldn't be necessary. |
| 23:11 | <@Vornicus> | One of the great things about porting is that you tend to find all the stupid crap you did the first time around. |
| 23:11 | < MyCatOwnz> | It's inexcusably buggy. It should be rewritten from the ground up in *Windows*, let alone thinking about a Linux port. |
| 23:11 | < ToxicFrog> | Of course, in reality reality, it's probably not going to happen in the next four years if at all. |
| 23:11 | <@Vornicus> | One of the horrible things about porting is that you tend to find all the stupid crap you did the first time around... and you have to fix it. |
| 23:12 | < ToxicFrog> | ...inexcusably buggy? |
| 23:12 | < ToxicFrog> | I mean, yes, media is broken, but apart from that... |
| 23:13 | < ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: yes. You should. (Buy Darwinia, that is) |
| 23:13 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: the UI is very, very sucky. I think that Valve's programmers, considering the very good standards of their games thus far, ought to be rather ashamed of the Steam client. |
| 23:13 | < ToxicFrog> | ...I have no problems with the UI. |
| 23:13 | < MyCatOwnz> | Vornicus: OTOH, you could just take advantage of the whole, "Everything should be built top-down, except for the first time," trick, which is where a rewrite comes in. ;) |
| 23:13 | < ToxicFrog> | Although it has been said that I'm somewhat atypical in my UI tastes~ |
| 23:17 | | aoanla is now known as caps[t-2] |
| 23:17 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #Code |
| 23:18 | | * Vornicus is a Mac user. tends to work maximized on both Windows and Mac, wishes he could get the menu bar to show up at the very top, as opposed to the title bar. |
| 23:18 | <@Vornicus> | on Windows, that is |
| 23:18 | | * Vornicus determines that that's a sucky description, gets out Paint. |
| 23:20 | | * caps[t-2] understands the concept from the description. |
| 23:20 | | * MyCatOwnz waves ratpoison at Vornicus. |
| 23:20 | < Janus> | No, that spot is reserved for the almighty apple. |
| 23:20 | | caps[t-2] [~sam@Nightstar-25994.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 23:20 | < MyCatOwnz> | I haven't *touched* my mouse in like twenty minutes ^_^ |
| 23:21 | | * Vornicus gets around pretty well without a mouse on OSX. |
| 23:22 | < MyCatOwnz> | Vornicus: you have to use Conkeror, screen and ratpoison together to really get the full "no rat neccessary" effect =) |
| 23:24 | | * Janus uses tab and enter only when there's ladies around to make horn. |
| 23:24 | < Janus> | *impress |
| 23:24 | | * Stephenie thinks she missed something |
| 23:25 | <@Vornicus> | http://vorn.dyndns.org/~vorn/vorngui.png |
| 23:25 | | * Vornicus wants a screen that looks like that. |
| 23:25 | <@Vornicus> | Only, with less c/p nast. |
| 23:27 | < MyCatOwnz> | You could probably write a KDE theme to do that/ |
| 23:28 | <@Vornicus> | probably. |
| 23:28 | < Janus> | ... and I thought everyone used Times-10 font for irc as well. |
| 23:28 | <@McMartin> | Someone claimed a GNOME theme for it. |
| 23:28 | <@McMartin> | I use gnome-terminal's font~ |
| 23:28 | | * MyCatOwnz uses, uh... |
| 23:28 | | * Vornicus uses gnome on his linux machine. well. uh. the office's linux machine. |
| 23:29 | < MyCatOwnz> | xft:Bitstream Sans Mono:pixelsize=15 |
| 23:29 | | * Vornicus obviously uses Arial. |
| 23:30 | | * Vornicus doesn't remember what he uses on Mac. Probably Lucida Modern or something |
| 23:31 | <@Vornicus> | Lucida Grande, rather |
| 23:31 | < Janus> | Grande indeed. |
| 23:47 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyOut |
| 23:50 | <@Vornicus> | Muchos muchos grande pantusos? |
| 23:56 | < Janus> | Si, tengo grande cafe con eso. |
| 23:56 | | ChalcyOut [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 23:58 | < ToxicFrog> | What's "ratpoison". |
| 23:59 | < ToxicFrog> | ? |
| --- Log closed Wed Nov 08 00:00:04 2006 |