| --- Log opened Sun Mar 13 00:00:35 2022 |
| 00:54 | < McMartin[zomg]> | Also whoops, I am bezomg'd |
| 00:55 | | McMartin[zomg] is now known as McMartin |
| 00:55 | | mode/#code [+ao McMartin McMartin] by ChanServ |
| 01:31 | <~Vornicus> | zomg |
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| 01:44 | <&McMartin> | I haven't gotten all the way through this series, but it got pointed out to me and I'm enjoying it: http://t-machine.org/index.php/2007/09/03/entity-systems-are-the-future-of-mmog-development-part-1/ |
| 01:45 | <&McMartin> | (Also, note the date: we are in fact In The Future now, and ECS did end up being The Future for a lot of things including non-MMOs) |
| 01:46 | <~Vornicus> | if you're using unity you use ecs |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | But not this particular variant on it, as it happens; that was the way it ended up crossing my desk |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | Back when I was fiddling with Monocle I was struggling with aspects of this. I ought to revisit that design with this guy's actual experience |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | Only partially unrelated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs-qfcfnsBw |
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| 05:05 | <&McMartin> | Yay, code works |
| 05:05 | <&McMartin> | Now to spend two weeks writing up the changes |
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| 06:26 | <~Vorntastic> | Lol |
| 08:52 | <&McMartin> | Whoops |
| 08:52 | <&McMartin> | Referred to make as a "modern dev tool" in this draft, then thought to check when it actually came out |
| 08:52 | <&McMartin> | make came out in 1976. It's older than every console or micro I've ever programmed, including the Atari 2600 and the TRS-80. |
| 09:06 | <~Vorntastic> | Man |
| 09:06 | <~Vorntastic> | Every time I've worked with make it felt weirdly baroque |
| 09:07 | <~Vorntastic> | For one project i discovered it to be completely inadequate and went with rake instead |
| 09:16 | <&McMartin> | There's a lot of nonsense it's accreted over the years, and maybe three bits of it actually matter when you use it as a tool for human beings. |
| 09:17 | <&McMartin> | This sounds like an opportunity to plug my tutorial! https://bumbershootsoft.wordpress.com/2018/03/25/makefiles-for-mortals/ |
| 09:20 | <&McMartin> | And flipping through it I see that an autocorrector turned "deduce" into "dudes" |
| 09:46 | < Pink> | That's something you couldn't have duded in advance. |
| 10:35 | <&Reiver> | The series on entity systems was a valuable thing back when I dreamed of writing my own 4X |
| 10:35 | <&Reiver> | I was gonna entity the *fuck* out of the *everything* in that verse |
| 10:36 | <&Reiver> | Now I am left laughing at how exactly I thought I'd be anywhere nearly capable of such a feat, but oh, the dream was nice~ |
| 10:43 | <&Reiver> | I am, however, reminded to give Distant Worlds a go some time. It sounds like it may well have actually succeeded at being an implementation of the game I'd dreamed of. |
| 10:47 | <&Reiver> | (The trick to my 4X was that it was semi-controlled: You were the *government*, not an all-seeing god of micromanagement. When you started off with but a single system, sure, you dictaded where your probes went and then which planet got colonised and what priority the colonials set to their terraforming lists.) |
| 10:49 | <&Reiver> | (... But by the time you have a dozen planets, you've handed off system exploitation to the civilians while you dictate which systems are next on the list to be colonised and organising your fleets; by the time you have a hundred, you're dictating policy via swatches of galaxy at a time and... only tracking a few dozen locations where the Federal money is being actively spent to, eg, ensure a teeny little backwater system has a massive |
| 10:49 | <&Reiver> | shipyard capacity after all.) |
| 10:51 | <&Reiver> | (And it wasn't merely 'letting the AI Governor fuck up your cities in a game of Civ for you to skip the micro', it was an *inherent part* of the design. One where it was less 'AI making choices to second-guess you at the board game' but 'the simulation pushes and pulls and this is what the Civilian infrastructure steers towards... and so does the player, unless they actively choose to invest to warp it.') |
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| 10:53 | <&Reiver> | (And then a MoOI-style set of 'sliders, not structures' for planets thus allowing this to be ... floating numbers and values, not 'augh why does the Governor insist on building sodding barracks in every bloody city'. The sort of engine that you could, theoreticaly, leave to run and see the little empire build without you, sim-city style - and with the sim-city style '...until the traffic jam starts hurting the central commerce until you fix |
| 10:53 | <&Reiver> | it' emergent pressures attached.) |
| 10:53 | <&Reiver> | (Was I ever gonna pull it off? Hah hah, no. I barely made it past my third Unity tutorial. But a man can dream. >_> <_<) |
| 10:59 | | * TheWatcher patpat |
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| 15:17 | <@gnolam> | https://twitter.com/DoubleNaeBow/status/1502320358996811778 |
| 16:06 | <@Tamber> | Have mercy, at the end of days, Boolean~ |
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| 17:21 | < Emmy> | Oooh, i like it gnolam |
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| 18:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | RESEARCHERS: https://www.armis.com/research/tlstorm/ remote code execution on cloud-managed UPSes |
| 18:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | ME: "being able to remotely turn off the power to an entire rack of servers sounds bad" |
| 18:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | RESEARCHERS: using this exploit we were able to remotely ignite some models |
| 18:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | ME: the fuck |
| 18:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Re entity-component-system game architectures, that's what I went for for my enternally unfinished Dungeons of Dredmor demake |
| 18:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | which is currently on hold because I realized I need to completely redesign the "system" part to make it not suck |
| 18:53 | | Kimo|autojoin is now known as Kindamoody |
| 18:55 | <@gnolam> | Dang. |
| 19:05 | <&McMartin> | The thing about computer jokes is that they're never jokes, and the older the joke, the more likely it is to be a sardonic name for a real process. |
| 19:05 | <&McMartin> | HCF is one of the *oldest* jokes. |
| 19:18 | <&[R]> | <ToxicFrog> RESEARCHERS: using this exploit we were able to remotely ignite some models <-- you know, so many people felt that the exploding hacks of GitS were unrealistic... |
| 19:18 | <&[R]> | Yet, with that news, I don't think that's true anymore. |
| 19:43 | <@Tamber> | Any machine is a smoke machine, if you operate it wrong enough |
| 19:54 | < ErikMesoy> | Computers develop ever more towards being the fantasy versions of themselves from movies/games, like making everything wireless and remotely accessible. |
| 19:55 | < Alek> | I mean, we've had exploding phones for over a decade now? |
| 19:56 | < ErikMesoy> | I remember this seemed dumb when it popped up in Shadowrun and looked like a ham-handed way to make hackers useful in combat time by hacking the enemy's gear. |
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| 21:57 | | * McMartin twitches at Shadowrun |
| 21:57 | | * McMartin played in the 2e days, which used a somewhat less hamfisted but also less workable method to make deckers useful in combat |
| 21:58 | <&Reiver> | Was that when 'decking is so fast that you pause the game for them to do their thing' |
| 21:59 | <&McMartin> | No, it was "Decking speeds basically required cybernetic reflex boosters to make you Matrix-viable *and their bonuses extended to real-world reflexes too*" |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | So the deckers would lap everyone else in combat and beat the dedicated street samurai/fighter archetypes on DPS. |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | While also always going first. |
| 22:01 | <&Reiver> | hahahah |
| 22:01 | <&Reiver> | That's an, uh, oops |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | Shadowrun 2e had a great many oopses |
| 22:01 | <&Reiver> | I played... 3e? 4e? I forget which, but it codified 'Passes' as an explicit mechanic |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | There was another quirk revolving how armor worked, that I do not fully recall. |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | But I remember the *result* |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | Which was that pistols were more dangerous against many foes when used as melee weapons. |
| 22:02 | <&Reiver> | In which on a scale where humans would get 1-3 passes in a fight |
| 22:02 | <&Reiver> | Decking bought you 2-4 passes in the same initiative track |
| 22:03 | <&Reiver> | (1 pass virtually was also possible, but was explicitly 'person typing at their cellphone' kind of nonsense, not for Real Users) |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | Oh yeah, 2e predates ubiquitous computing >_> |
| 22:04 | <&McMartin> | This was back when your cyberdeck was, like, a commodore 64 slung over your back like a skateboard or something |
| 22:04 | <&Reiver> | This lined things up neatly enough... 'cept Deckers could trigger robotic weapons, okay, cool, those weapons only got one pass a turn, who car... oh you mean they get One More Pass Than Everyone Else At The End Of The Round With The Blimp With A Sniper Rifle? Oh. |
| 22:04 | <&Reiver> | Like, the multiple passes not an issue |
| 22:04 | <&Reiver> | getting that one shot *after everyone else is done* though... |
| 22:04 | <@macdjord> | ToxicFrog: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/E/EOU.html |
| 22:05 | <&Reiver> | "Okay, so after the sammies have shot everyone, anyone still standing? Like, out in the open after their mad end-of-turn rushes? Okay. Him." *blam* |
| 22:07 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, IIRC 2e initiative worked more like an action point system where whoever had the highest initiative, it was their turn, and taking an action cost some (fixed?) number of points |
| 22:08 | <&McMartin> | And so that makes it worse because that means that the Deckers not only act multiple times per round compared to everyone else... they also got to alpha strike. |
| 22:08 | <&Reiver> | Right |
| 22:08 | <&Reiver> | The one I played fixed that where init was run through one action at a time |
| 22:08 | <&McMartin> | And tbh, in-fiction this also totally worked; these people basically had replaced their nervous systems with combat programs, and in a fight they're not going to be *entirely* unlike |
| 22:08 | <&McMartin> | well |
| 22:08 | <&McMartin> | Justice of Toren |
| 22:09 | <&McMartin> | A connection I literally just made five seconds ago |
| 22:09 | <&Reiver> | And extra actions came in *later* passes for a single 'turn' |
| 22:09 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that's going to help quite a bit for gaving the street sams a reason to exist |
| 22:09 | <&Reiver> | But while not as egregious as an alpha strike |
| 22:09 | <&Reiver> | Last-hitting has Real Benefits as well |
| 22:09 | <&Reiver> | Especially when it's coming from the dude with The Big Gun In Overwatch~ |
| 22:09 | <&McMartin> | Heh. |
| 22:10 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that sounds like it actually did a decent job of Having Deckers Matter without having them dominate and without splitting the party |
| 22:10 | <&Reiver> | Actually it was awful at making deckers matter, but it wasn't deckers fault |
| 22:11 | <&Reiver> | It was the same edition they introduced the... technomages, um, 'mages who get wifi in their brain as a magical gift... and then proceed to summon servant spirits who are Ghosts In The Machine' |
| 22:11 | <&Reiver> | And the problem *they* have wast hat while Deckers could in theory spend lots of money and effort programming a software to make a little robo tank or something if they could get their hands on it |
| 22:12 | <&Reiver> | The cybermage could Summon A Techno Spirit to *posess* equipment, and was explicitly an intelligent if somewhat wilful spirit! |
| 22:12 | <&Reiver> | Cool idea, for sure. |
| 22:12 | <&Reiver> | ... hello, army of drones. |
| 22:13 | <&McMartin> | I can't tell how much of Mages being broken in 2e was 2e and how much was my SR group being a pile of psychopaths |
| 22:13 | <&McMartin> | ... who also used Will as a dump stat |
| 22:13 | <&McMartin> | Do not use Will as a dump stat in SR 2e |
| 22:13 | <&Reiver> | ... uh |
| 22:13 | <&Reiver> | yeah |
| 22:13 | <&Reiver> | on a mage? |
| 22:14 | <&Reiver> | um~ |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | No |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | On people *facing a mage in combat* |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | The GM also did this, and was extremely vexed that I could apparently one-shot his uber-beefy dudes with a single cast of the weakest attack spell in the game |
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| 22:15 | <&Reiver> | Aaaah, yes, uh |
| 22:15 | <&Reiver> | but why would this surprise anyone |
| 22:15 | <&Reiver> | Will is "Defenses vs magic shit" |
| 22:16 | <&McMartin> | They were kind of meatheads sometimes |
| 22:17 | <&McMartin> | Meanwhile, somebody *else*'s group had noticed that part of the rules involved letting you roll almost any skill as any other skill at a penalty |
| 22:17 | <&McMartin> | And this included Sorcery by rolling Military Theory |
| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | And that group thus had someone who would make people collapse bleeding from the ears by monologuing about Clausewitz too much |
| 22:20 | < ErikMesoy> | http://drelb.free.fr/webskill.jpg I think it's this skill web? |
| 22:20 | < ErikMesoy> | Penalty for each 'dot' along the way between the skill you want to use and the skill you're substituting. |
| 22:21 | <&McMartin> | That looks right. |
| 22:21 | <&McMartin> | If not *exactly* this then a variant of it. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Mar 14 00:00:37 2022 |