| --- Log opened Sun Feb 21 00:00:49 2021 |
| 00:33 | | abudhabi_ [abudhabi@Nightstar-glprok.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #code |
| 00:35 | | abudhabi__ [abudhabi@Nightstar-gni534.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 00:49 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-ejd4sd.cable.virginm.net] has joined #code |
| 00:57 | | Vornicus [Vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 01:18 | | Emmy [Emmy@Nightstar-l49opt.fixed.kpn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 03:15 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-re5.7if.45.45.IP] has joined #code |
| 03:15 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 03:16 | | macdjord|slep [macdjord@Nightstar-re5.7if.45.45.IP] has joined #code |
| 03:16 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord|slep] by ChanServ |
| 03:17 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-re5.7if.45.45.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 03:20 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-re5.7if.45.45.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 03:35 | | Degi [Degi@Nightstar-j5cqpf.pool.telefonica.de] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 03:36 | | Degi [Degi@Nightstar-doelqr.pool.telefonica.de] has joined #code |
| 03:45 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-re5.7if.45.45.IP] has joined #code |
| 03:45 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 03:48 | | macdjord|slep [macdjord@Nightstar-re5.7if.45.45.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 04:51 | | Vorntastic [uid293981@Nightstar-h2b233.irccloud.com] has joined #code |
| 04:51 | | mode/#code [+qo Vorntastic Vorntastic] by ChanServ |
| 05:08 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-42s.jso.104.208.IP] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 05:08 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-42s.jso.104.208.IP] has joined #code |
| 05:08 | | mode/#code [+ao VirusJTG VirusJTG] by ChanServ |
| 08:36 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 08:37 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-vrcdll.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] |
| 10:46 | | Emmy [Emmy@Nightstar-l49opt.fixed.kpn.net] has joined #code |
| 10:59 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 11:01 | | Vorntastic [uid293981@Nightstar-h2b233.irccloud.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] |
| 11:49 | | catalyst_ [catalyst@Nightstar-s9kmcp.dab.02.net] has joined #code |
| 11:52 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-ejd4sd.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 13:25 | | Vorntastic [uid293981@Nightstar-h2b233.irccloud.com] has joined #code |
| 13:25 | | mode/#code [+qo Vorntastic Vorntastic] by ChanServ |
| 14:44 | | Vornicus [Vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 14:44 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 14:45 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 15:04 | | catalyst_ is now known as catalyst |
| 15:40 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-s9kmcp.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 15:42 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-u9rlk9.dab.02.net] has joined #code |
| 16:13 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-vrcdll.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code |
| 16:13 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| 16:25 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-u9rlk9.dab.02.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out] |
| 16:25 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-u9rlk9.dab.02.net] has joined #code |
| 16:45 | | Vorntastic [uid293981@Nightstar-h2b233.irccloud.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] |
| 17:56 | | catalyst_ [catalyst@Nightstar-ejd4sd.cable.virginm.net] has joined #code |
| 17:57 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-u9rlk9.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 18:17 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-u9rlk9.dab.02.net] has joined #code |
| 18:20 | | catalyst_ [catalyst@Nightstar-ejd4sd.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 18:39 | | catalyst_ [catalyst@Nightstar-ejd4sd.cable.virginm.net] has joined #code |
| 18:40 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-u9rlk9.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 20:05 | | catalyst_ is now known as catalyst |
| 20:55 | < McMartin> | Hm |
| 20:55 | | * McMartin queues up a draft of a new Bumbershoot article, tentatively titled: "DirectX 9: Rewarded As a Traitor Deserves" |
| 21:08 | | * Reiver pokes for a Vornicus in passing |
| 21:42 | <~Vornicus> | what's up what's up what's up |
| 21:53 | <&Reiver> | Vornicus: I am actively talking to Chalcedon right now. :) |
| 21:54 | <&Reiver> | Since it's the first time in some years, thought you'd like to be informed <3 |
| 21:55 | <~Vornicus> | Oh man |
| 21:56 | <~Vornicus> | *wavewavewave from way over here* |
| 21:59 | <&Reiver> | Shall I pass on a stoatburger or just a wave? :) |
| 22:00 | <&Reiver> | She says hello back! :) |
| 22:11 | < catalyst> | McMartin: what did DX9 do to you? :o |
| 22:14 | < McMartin> | It offered what looked like the most convenient function I could ever ask for from a mostly-but-not-entirely-3D library |
| 22:15 | < McMartin> | And it appears to be fundamentally busted. |
| 22:15 | < McMartin> | And for reasons not covered in my previous article in that series, "DirectX 9: A Sudden, but Inevitable, Betrayal" |
| 22:15 | < McMartin> | WAIT YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE VICINITY OF GAME ENGINES I CAN ALSO ASK YOU THIS |
| 22:15 | < McMartin> | Is IDirect3DDevice9::StretchRect in fact known to be fundamentally broken |
| 22:16 | < McMartin> | Because the specific Fundamental Brokenness seems like it would have *shown up on some Google searches or StackOverflow searches* and they did not |
| 22:16 | <~Vornicus> | what is going on with it now |
| 22:16 | < McMartin> | Specifically, it seems that no matter how hard you magnify your source surface, the rightmost column and bottommost row are always exactly 1 pixel tall |
| 22:16 | <~Vornicus> | ...yikes |
| 22:17 | < McMartin> | This is _several problems_ and it is not the one that makes it useless for running a sprite engine |
| 22:18 | < McMartin> | (The correct thing to do is to render a textured quad like everybody else, but I was tempted by the notion of not having to add four completely pointless levels of abstraction) |
| 22:19 | < McMartin> | The other possibility is that this is a bug introduced by Windows 10 or something, which would be kind of lol but also very unlike them |
| 22:19 | <@sshine> | this happened: I'm not that guy at work who thinks we should rewrite everything in X. also, everyone has a different value for X. |
| 22:19 | < McMartin> | Don't write directly to X |
| 22:19 | <@sshine> | of course not. |
| 22:19 | < McMartin> | >_> |
| 22:20 | <@sshine> | always transpile! |
| 22:20 | <@sshine> | last Friday I heard: X = Rust, Go, Kotlin. |
| 22:20 | < McMartin> | Oh, I was pretending X is X11 |
| 22:20 | <@sshine> | ohh ;-) |
| 22:20 | <@sshine> | at my old job, X = Haskell, always. |
| 22:21 | < McMartin> | My conceit here that DX9 counts as retrocoding is a little bit flimsy but I stand by it: 9.0c came out in 2006. |
| 22:21 | <@sshine> | also, nobody believed the 700 KLOC Perl would ever be anything but that. |
| 22:21 | < McMartin> | Python!!!!!!! |
| 22:21 | < McMartin> | (ps !!!!!!!!!) |
| 22:21 | <@sshine> | one of my professors said he used to TA a course where he too proudly let people use any language they liked until someone started handing in their assignments in PS. |
| 22:22 | | * Vornicus , one of the more python-centric coders in the room, fires an anti-aircraft gun in mcm's exclamation points' direction |
| 22:22 | <~Vornicus> | Having hand written ps |
| 22:22 | <~Vornicus> | it's not that bad |
| 22:22 | | * McMartin deflects the bullets with ballistic lasers |
| 22:22 | <@sshine> | Vornicus, I can imagine it's as good as the macros you define? |
| 22:22 | < McMartin> | words, not macros ;-) |
| 22:22 | < McMartin> | PS is a plausible super-Forth, IIRC |
| 22:23 | | * sshine admits he never wrote PS. |
| 22:23 | <~Vornicus> | yeah it's a perfectly sensible language |
| 22:23 | < McMartin> | My compilers professor back in undergrad alleged that PS was his favorite programming language |
| 22:23 | <@sshine> | I once improved a high-performance PDF parser significantly by supporting more of PS, though. |
| 22:24 | <@sshine> | Vornicus, especially if you compile to it! |
| 22:25 | < McMartin> | Hm, it's been a week since my last kernel upgrade, time to do something about that |
| 22:25 | | McMartin [mcmartin@Nightstar-c25omi.ca.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: upgrades] |
| 22:33 | | abudhabi__ [abudhabi@Nightstar-3hu3qr.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #code |
| 22:35 | | abudhabi_ [abudhabi@Nightstar-glprok.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 22:35 | | McMartin [mcmartin@Nightstar-c25omi.ca.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 22:35 | | mode/#code [+ao McMartin McMartin] by ChanServ |
| 22:38 | < catalyst> | McMartin: sadly rendering is the one area I'm not that experienced in :) |
| 22:40 | <&McMartin> | Ah well. I've pestered Twitter, who will tell me to just use Vulkan, and I'll pester my co-workers tomorrow. |
| 22:41 | < catalyst> | to be fair my advice would be to use DX11 or 12, or some flavour of OpenGL if you must |
| 22:42 | < catalyst> | but you didn't actually ask ^^ |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | So yeah the glib reply to that is "Bumbershoot Software is a retrocoding blog" |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | The real answer for this kind of application in the modern world is "use SDL2 as an API buffer" |
| 22:42 | < catalyst> | :D |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | I don't think I've said in here recently how awesome SDL2 is at this |
| 22:43 | < catalyst> | DX9 was around for rather a long time |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | My slightly longer answer for this is that DX9c serves the same purpose in 2021 that OpenGL 2.x does |
| 22:43 | < catalyst> | I guess I'd be surprised by that kind of bug but could believe it |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | If you have a use case where you'd want something that looks like a fixed graphics pipeline, DX9 runs on more machines and offers an API closer to what you want. |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | It also offers a lot of capabilities that don't matter anymore and that you should pointedly ignore |
| 22:44 | < catalyst> | it's also very much worthwhile to decide your wanted to use fixed function pipeline stuff instead of needing to build large amounts of the same infrastructure |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | (And which OpenGL never had, which is why it *used to* suck back when those things mattered) |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | Getting into DX11 is honestly delayed until I get the time, inclination, and talent to make some properly bitchin' shader toys |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | And yes this should be read in the voice of Hoagie |
| 22:46 | < catalyst> | :D |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, the other way around all this is to use the entirely unaccelerated pipeline |
| 22:46 | < catalyst> | SDL annoys me but that's mostly because it's not Allegro 4 |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | Assuming it even is unaccelerated these days because maybe Aero accelerates it! |
| 22:46 | <~Vornicus> | who is hoagie? |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | SDL2 is Extremely Not the SDL that annoys you, and is something else instead |
| 22:47 | < catalyst> | this is also why Allegro 5 annoys me |
| 22:47 | | * Vornicus has a bitchin' shader toy! |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | SDL2 talks about textures and renderers |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | Vornicus: Hoagie is the heavy metal roadie who is one of the PCs in the second Maniac Mansion game. |
| 22:47 | < catalyst> | it's probably not Allegro 4 though |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | catalyst: It's not. It's all about talking about modern GPUs and doing reasonable 2d things with it. |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | This means it can among other things do accelerated rendering straight on an RPi console by talking straight to the VC4 chip, screw you X11 |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | This is very <3 if you are me |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | Vornicus: In particular, Hoagie's message for "I don't seen anything special about it" was "Bitchin'." |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | ("Nice hat, man." "..." "I know some guys in a band who'd eat roaches for hats like that." "..." "Of course, they'd probably eat roaches anyway." "..." "They play funk punk folk polka house grunge rock." "..." "That's a new movement based in Tuscon." "...") |
| 22:51 | <~Vornicus> | very nice |
| 22:52 | <&McMartin> | That's from memory and I'm not sure you can get all those lines in the same conversation, but this happens when you strike up a conversation with a mummy who has been dead for thousands of years |
| 22:52 | < catalyst> | I can't see a link to documentation on the sdl site :< |
| 22:53 | <&McMartin> | http://wiki.libsdl.org/FrontPage |
| 22:53 | <&McMartin> | There should be a "Documentation" tab on the left of their main page. |
| 22:53 | < catalyst> | oh that's because I'm blind |
| 22:54 | < catalyst> | it's the "Wiki" link |
| 22:54 | <&McMartin> | http://wiki.libsdl.org/MigrationGuide is the probably relevant one to someone with experience with allegro and SDL1 |
| 22:55 | <&McMartin> | And for a worked example, https://bumbershootsoft.wordpress.com/2019/12/16/porting-the-ur-quan-masters-to-sdl2/ |
| 22:55 | <&McMartin> | Which includes the funniest render bugs in my dev history |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | I think my glib summary of the difference between the two versions though is that SDL1 was created so that they could port SMAC to Linux, and SDL2 exists so that they could port Left 4 Dead 2. |
| 22:58 | < catalyst> | aight the SDL2 API pleases me |
| 22:59 | <~Vornicus> | (please don't go. the drones need you. they look up to you) |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | ** == QUADCOPTER RIOTS == ** |
| 23:02 | | Emmy [Emmy@Nightstar-l49opt.fixed.kpn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:37 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| --- Log closed Mon Feb 22 00:00:50 2021 |