| --- Log opened Thu Sep 13 00:00:29 2018 |
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| 02:57 | <&[R]> | Stats I'm looking at are Chrome 60%, Safari 13%, ... |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | Is that including mobile? |
| 02:58 | <&[R]> | Yes |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | My stats were for desktop (looking at "netmarketshare.com" fwiw) |
| 02:59 | <&[R]> | Edge is already free. Edge and IE are the only mainstream browsers that are tied to a single desktop platform. |
| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | Are you treating Safari as non-mainstream, or does its brand's use on iPhone make it count as multiplatform? |
| 03:01 | <&[R]> | Also it's not like they're even aiming for vendor lock-in anymore. Given stuff like vscode and SQL Server are cross-platform. .NET even is crossplatform, but that's more of an edge-case. |
| 03:01 | < Degi> | How come that firefox is declining and chrome is rising? (src: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Usage_share_of_web_browsers_%28Source_StatCounter%29.svg) |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | Have you ever tried to access gmail in firefox, ie, safari, or edge? |
| 03:01 | <&[R]> | Safari has Windows versions |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | Google's quite aggressive about this |
| 03:01 | <&[R]> | I access gmail in Firefox regularly |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | Maybe you aren't getting the popups |
| 03:02 | < Degi> | What happens there? I don't really have checked my gmail in the last lot of years... |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | There are "hey, this page would be way more awesome in chrome" nag screens |
| 03:03 | < Degi> | ...people use gmail? |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | Yes. |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | While we're at it, Windows is still about 96% of the desktop market |
| 03:04 | <&[R]> | I don't see a single pop-up for Chrome actually |
| 03:04 | <&McMartin> | I don't get it on my systems with ublock origin, but did on some of the noscript ones |
| 03:04 | < Degi> | Well at my home we have two computers with windows (although I want to install linux on one sometime) and two with linux (if RPis aren't counted) |
| 03:04 | <&McMartin> | Not sure if it's an A/B thing or if NoScript |
| 03:05 | <&[R]> | I have no add-ons at all on this system |
| 03:05 | <&[R]> | Pure vanilla FF |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | Degi: Extrapolating from that to "Windows has a 50% market share" is doing it wrong |
| 03:05 | < Degi> | Well according to that, arch linux would have a 25 % market share (with rise to 50% predicted for the next year or so) |
| 03:06 | <&McMartin> | Man. RIM OS |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | (Looks like by this site windows is 88% of desktop now.) |
| 03:07 | < Degi> | SLPT: Use a CDRW as swap |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | (I wonder how Pis and the like are measured) |
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| 03:11 | <&McMartin> | Ah, the 96% was for Steam |
| 03:11 | <&McMartin> | Knew I'd seen that somewhere |
| 03:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | Huzzah, I have no-exit warnings working |
| 03:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Chozo Ruins | Burn Dome (I. Drone) => Power Bomb Expansion [NO EXIT] |
| 03:46 | <@macdjord> | McMartin: Uh, I've /never/ got a 'Use Chrome!' nag screen from gmail, except on rare occasions when I tried to use a feature that only works in Chrome. |
| 03:47 | <@macdjord> | Hell, the only things I've seen are occasional, small 'Have you tried chrome?' /pop-ups/ in the corner of the screen sometimes when I do a search. |
| 03:47 | <@macdjord> | I have ABP, but no NoScript. |
| 03:57 | <&Reiver> | Microsoft has good reasons for developing Edge, and it has nothing to do with trying to reclaim the browser market |
| 03:58 | <&Reiver> | The technology behind Edge is increasingly used in a /lot/ of Microsoft tech |
| 03:58 | <&Reiver> | That they built an internet browser with it as well is mostly incidental |
| 03:58 | <&Reiver> | It's effectively a tech toolbox that happens to resemble a browser in default configuration, that the rest of their stuff utilises |
| 03:58 | <&Reiver> | And by having it, it means thy have something that they can gurantee works |
| 03:59 | <&Reiver> | If Chrome decides to make PowerBI shit the bed, they do not want to be in the position with PowerBI being unusable, they can just say that "Chrome has made it unusable, please use Edge while we have a fight with our compeditors about this" and carry on |
| 04:00 | <&Reiver> | You really, really don't wanna be dependent on a compeditor for your product to work. |
| 04:00 | <&Reiver> | Should Edge work on other platforms? Sure, but let's face it, Microsoft doesn't need to care |
| 04:00 | <&Reiver> | The people using microsoft tech are microsoft shops by default, so they gave them a microsoft browser that they gurantee things work right in |
| 04:00 | <&Reiver> | Especially importaint given that Chrome is, honestly, kind of a clusterfuck for Enterprise IT management & security |
| 04:01 | <&Reiver> | (This is why so many corporations stick with IE as their primary browser, despite user preferences) |
| 04:01 | <&Reiver> | (And why an astonishing amount of companies stuck with IE as their primary browser for their web interfaces, against similar trends) |
| 04:01 | <&Reiver> | Chrome has a nasty habit of just arbitarily updating on a whim and suddenly whoops, something is broken and it's now your companies problem |
| 04:02 | <&[R]> | Interesting, that makes a fair bit of sense |
| 04:02 | | * Reiver sits beside a small organisations infrastructure-and-security guy, and Chrome is a relative nightmare if you can't gurantee you have the resources or sufficiently agile partners to keep up with it. |
| 04:02 | <&[R]> | Yeah |
| 04:02 | <&Reiver> | So yeah, /that/ is why IE stays favored |
| 04:03 | <&Reiver> | Not because it is *better* but because it is *manageable* |
| 04:03 | <&[R]> | I'm aware FF does have some corperate management stuff, but it's not very well documented |
| 04:03 | <&Reiver> | Edge is... the new IE. It is fundamentally different, though, in that it's a tech platform for All Microsoft Gimmicks rather than being "Oh, IE is totally part of the main system, we promise" (ha ha not really) |
| 04:03 | <&Reiver> | And this is why they launched a new one |
| 04:03 | <&Reiver> | It is, in fact, a different techbase |
| 04:04 | <&Reiver> | And they did it because they decided they /wanted/ that techbase, the browser itself being secondary. |
| 04:04 | <&Reiver> | Yeah, FF is a clusterfuck in /both/ directions |
| 04:05 | <&Reiver> | So tends to get installed on developer machines so people have a tertiary browser to fuck about with, but you don't want your entire corporation using it as primary |
| 04:05 | <&Reiver> | Though the previous company I worked with had it as the standard secondary browser |
| 04:05 | <&Reiver> | IE as primary |
| 04:05 | <&Reiver> | It'd get pulled out if a specific thing wasn't working, usually some new feature in software that wasn't compatable with our older version of IE (which was itself being retained because of compatability issues with /other/ software vendors we were prodding for updates and they hadn't gotten around to) |
| 04:07 | <&Reiver> | As noted, it was at least semi-managable, though the IT dept was Quite Firm they did not want it as the primary platform, they merely regarded it as insifficiently obnoxious to object to it being the secondary |
| 04:07 | <&Reiver> | Chrome was carefully restricted to IT devs and the occasional poweruser or niche, because it was nigh unmanagable. Google has no interest in your enterprise versioning vendor management. |
| 04:07 | <&Reiver> | They want the internet up to date and secure and fuck you and your out of date software, that's not their problem |
| 04:08 | <&Reiver> | You /can/ corral it. It is a pain in the ass, and they do not try very hard to make sure the methods do not suddenly break next month. |
| 04:08 | <&Reiver> | So in that respect... Microsoft has a major advantage. They /understand/ corporate enterprise enviroments, in a way that I don't think any other first-line browser manufacturer does. |
| 04:08 | <&[R]> | You could provide Chromium instead though, IIRC that compile-mode has disabled auto-updates |
| 04:09 | <&Reiver> | ha ha ha ha ha |
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| 04:09 | <&Reiver> | Yes, you certainly could |
| 04:09 | <&Reiver> | Have fun justifying "It's Chrome except it's now Firefox and with all the headaches of both" |
| 04:09 | <&Reiver> | "Can we make this a professional corporate solution now?" |
| 04:09 | < Mahal> | Chrome is manageable at an enterprise level. It can be packaged, patched and managed by GPO, including extensions. |
| 04:09 | < Mahal> | FF is a clusterfuck though. |
| 04:09 | <&Reiver> | Mahal: It is a significantly bigger pain in the ass than IE about it, though |
| 04:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Firefox is pretty terrible. |
| 04:10 | <@celticminstrel> | But Chrome somehow manages to be even worse. |
| 04:10 | < Mahal> | Not in my personal experience, YMMV. |
| 04:10 | <@celticminstrel> | For someone like me who tends to leave tons of tabs open, Chrome is unusable. |
| 04:10 | <&[R]> | Chrome requires d-bus in weird ways (I could never get it working on CRUX, but I will admit my CRUX install did have many issues) |
| 04:11 | <&Reiver> | Our experienec may be "It does not work in ways that our Infrastructure & Security team, aka "Rob", can corral efficiently to behave right" |
| 04:11 | <&[R]> | Though obviously that's a platform specific issue |
| 04:12 | < Mahal> | I have the exact reverse experience wrt RAM use and Chrome / FF. |
| 04:13 | < Mahal> | FF chews FAR more in the same operations |
| 04:13 | < Mahal> | :D |
| 04:13 | <&[R]> | Chrome's itty-bitty tabs are irritating |
| 04:14 | <@celticminstrel> | ^ |
| 04:15 | <@celticminstrel> | I was trying Vivaldi for awhile but it has the same problem with its tabs so I'll probably go back to Firefox. |
| 04:15 | <&[R]> | I should try Vivaldi again, I don't recall any issues with it |
| 04:16 | <@celticminstrel> | In most ways I think it's probably better than Firefox, but the tabs problem and the lack of "reopen last closed tab" is pretty annoying. |
| 04:16 | <@celticminstrel> | Unless they added the latter when I wasn't looking, but I don't think they did. |
| 04:17 | <&[R]> | I only used it on my work laptop, so I didn't use it all that much. For the longest time they weren't providing any builds I could use on my home systems. |
| 04:18 | <@celticminstrel> | The only build of Vivaldi I can use on this system is one of the really early builds. |
| 04:18 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, maybe two or three of the really early builds. |
| 04:18 | <&[R]> | Weird |
| 04:18 | <@celticminstrel> | Not really, this computer is over 10 years old. |
| 04:19 | <@celticminstrel> | But I'm using it on the Win7 machine. |
| 04:19 | <@celticminstrel> | Sorta got around the lack of "reopen last closed tab" by hiding the close tab buttons, which is irritating in a different way but at least not mistake-prone. |
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| 14:16 | | * abudhabi solders a cable and a new pushbutton onto the gaming rig's power cabling. |
| 14:16 | <@abudhabi> | Now I don't have to crouch to power it on. |
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| 22:50 | <&McMartin> | Blockchain Technology: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dmyl0xmXgAAt4b1.jpg |
| 22:54 | < Mahal> | oh god |
| 22:54 | < Mahal> | that's dreadful |
| 22:54 | < Mahal> | I love it |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | Man, did apple seriously name the new phone "iPhone Excess" |
| 22:56 | < Mahal> | Yep. |
| 22:59 | <@ErikMesoy> | Windows after recent update: "It looks like you opened a game, here's a game bar, you can use the game bar to record-" Me: "STFU go away, where is your X button, how do I make this not happen again" |
| 23:00 | <@ErikMesoy> | So I uninstall the XBOX gaming overlay (from a machine that is very much not an XBOX) and then a little later Windows is "It looks like you opened a game, here's OH GOD I DON'T KNOW WHAT APP TO OPEN SOMETHING ELSE WITH". |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | settings -> gaming -> game bar -> disable |
| 23:01 | <@ErikMesoy> | Yes, I found that out later. |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | And don't push the Xbox-logo button on your Xbox controller |
| 23:01 | <@ErikMesoy> | The machine in question has never had an Xbox controller plugged in, AFAIK. |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | It's summoned by either that, a 3rd party controller's equivalent thereof, or Logo+G, AIUI. |
| 23:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is especially aggravating because most things I use a controller for let me bind that button to something actually useful |
| 23:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | But on windows it intercepts that button press so I can't bind it! |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | ... genuinely curious what you bind it to |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | The obvious choice is "menu" but there's a menu button |
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| 23:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...none of my controllers have a Menu button |
| 23:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | In Retroarch I bind it to bring up the retroarch quickmenu, and similarly for other emulators where possible |
| 23:37 | <&McMartin> | Oh wait, the X360 controller calls it "Back" |
| 23:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh, Select |
| 23:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | That usually does something in-game |
| 23:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | 90% of my controller use is for emulators so the xbox/logitech/playstation logo gets bound to "invoke emulator controls". |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that's a level of abstraction I generally lack. |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | (And when I don't, as per the Mega Man Legacy Collection et al, I use Select for that, mapping the game's original 'select' to something less inconvenient) |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | (I think for MM1 I mapped it to R1 >_>) |
| 23:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, for emulated things that gets aggravating because some platforms want all the real buttons on the controller, and I'd rather not have inconsistent controls across platforms |
| 23:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | For native games it depends on how many buttons it wants on the controller, and for those a lot of the time the logo button ends up unbound |
| 23:40 | | * McMartin nods |
| 23:41 | <&McMartin> | a big part of this is that I haven't been emulating anything past the PS2, and also when I'm emulating the use of emulation controls is rare enough that i can leave it to the mouse and keyboard. |
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| 23:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | On the laptop I generally emulate the Gamecube, the PSX, and everything earlier, and occasionally the PSP; on the desktop you can add the PS2 and PS3 to the list. And the DS, but controls for that are kind of fucky because of the touchscreen. |
| 23:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | (and the PSX/PS2 will want all the buttons on a standard XInput controller anyways) |
| 23:43 | | * ToxicFrog tends to abandon physical consoles as soon as emulating them becomes practical. |
| 23:43 | <&McMartin> | I was unaware that PS3 emulation was actually practical |
| 23:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | For surprisingly many games it's more practical than PS2 emulation, it turns out. |
| 23:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | The Disgaea games work fine, as does Dragons Crown; the PS3 remake of Odin Sphere runs better in emulation than the original Odin Sphere does on an actual PS2 |
| 23:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Atelier Totori is a bit crashy but runs fine when it's not crashing. |
| 23:46 | <&McMartin> | Oh, I see NieR is now listed as 'playable' |
| 23:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | I haven't tried NieR because I have the PC version. |
| 23:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Er, of NieR:Automata. I played OG NieR on an actual PS3 that I resurrected with dark magicks and an oven. |
| 23:47 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, i meant OG NieR |
| 23:48 | <&McMartin> | Which was not actually OG NieR AIUI because there were a variety of them but apparently OG NieR US PS3 is "NieR RepliCant" or NieR RC? |
| 23:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | Nier Replicant is the JP version. Nier Gestalt is the everywhere-else version. |
| 23:50 | <&McMartin> | Hm. Nier Gestalt I only saw as "the X360 game" |
| 23:50 | <&McMartin> | Is this some laughable attempt around exclusivity |
| 23:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | The gameplay and soundtrack are the same, the story is different |
| 23:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | in Replicant Nier is like a teenager and Yonah is his sister; in Gestalt he's a grizzled middle-aged man and Yonah is his daughter. Dialogue etc is changed accordingly. |
| 23:51 | <&McMartin> | Aha. |
| 23:51 | | * McMartin had gotten the vague impression that Automata was treating both as canon but presumably it's doing that by dodging the varying parts. |
| 23:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | IIRC, Replicant was released as "Nier Replicant" in Japan, and Gestalt as "Nier Gestalt" on the 360 and just as "Nier" on the PS3 |
| 23:52 | <&McMartin> | That would fit with what facts I both can recall and am at all confident of |
| 23:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | As far as I know there's no actual difference between PS3 Nier and X360 Nier Gestalt. |
| 23:54 | <&McMartin> | okay. |
| 23:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | (but I only played the PS3 version) |
| 23:54 | <&McMartin> | I would at some point like to play that and it seems like emulation or secondary markets or both are my only options. |
| 23:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | If I still have my hardcopy I would be willing to send it to you, but I'm not 100% sure I still have it. |
| 23:56 | <&McMartin> | Actually it occurs to me that "secondary market" might include the console itself; Astatine can't read BD-ROMs. |
| 23:56 | <&McMartin> | s/Astatine/Bismuth/ |
| 23:56 | <&McMartin> | Forgot I renamed it after had some core components decay~ |
| 23:57 | <&McMartin> | but that's one of those things where it might just be "swing by used game stores and see if they have a copy opportunistically; opportunities to actually play it will come later" |
| --- Log closed Fri Sep 14 00:00:30 2018 |