| --- Log opened Thu Sep 29 00:00:52 2016 |
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| 01:12 | | * celticminstrel discovers an old C++ library that supports PICT and wonders if I should try using that instead of my custom loader... |
| 01:12 | <&Derakon> | You have a PICT loader? |
| 01:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Yes, in BoE. |
| 01:13 | <&Derakon> | Oh yeah, you maintain that project. |
| 01:13 | <&Derakon> | Thanks, by the way. I'm sure I'll play it again at some point. |
| 01:13 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh, good to know... |
| 01:13 | <@celticminstrel> | Still not stable, but I like to think it's getting there. |
| 01:13 | <&Derakon> | Define "not stable"? |
| 01:13 | <@celticminstrel> | (The library in question is paintlib.) |
| 01:14 | <@celticminstrel> | Lots of new bugs and some crashes. |
| 01:14 | <&Derakon> | It's remotely possible that I'll want some way to convert PICT to a modern format. |
| 01:14 | <&Derakon> | I'm considering doing a Let's Play of Taskmaker, and it might be fun to extract out the resources. |
| 01:15 | <&Derakon> | Especially stuff like the terrain tiles that form letters. |
| 01:16 | <@celticminstrel> | I think the reason I wrote a custom loader was something to do with avoiding Mac API calls so that potentially it could someday work on Windows... It still uses the Resource Manager though... |
| 01:20 | <@celticminstrel> | ...I wonder if the Resource Manager still exists on the latest OSX versions. |
| 01:21 | <@celticminstrel> | Or if it'll ever be removed/ |
| 01:23 | | * Derakon downloads ResEdit and Stuffit Expander, opens up the Taskmaker resource fork. |
| 01:23 | <&Derakon> | ...and ResEdit has, apparently, hung while trying to open the PICTs resource. |
| 01:23 | <&[R]> | BoE? |
| 01:24 | <@celticminstrel> | My loader is crashing on one particular PICT and I have no idea why. |
| 01:24 | <@celticminstrel> | [R]: Blades of Exile |
| 01:24 | | * celticminstrel is shocked that Derakon has the ability to run ResEdit and Stuffit Expander. |
| 01:25 | <&Derakon> | Basilisk II. |
| 01:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 01:25 | <&Derakon> | Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to force-quit a program inside Basilisk II. |
| 01:25 | <@celticminstrel> | What was it again... |
| 01:25 | <&Derakon> | I can force-quit the emulator itself, of course. But the key gesture is the same for force-quitting inside and outside the emulator. |
| 01:26 | <@celticminstrel> | I think Command-Power or some such sequence. |
| 01:26 | <@celticminstrel> | Pretty sure it involved the Power key, anyway. |
| 01:26 | <&[R]> | https://github.com/calref/cboe <-- that one? |
| 01:26 | <@celticminstrel> | Yes. |
| 01:27 | | macdjord|wurk is now known as macdjord |
| 01:27 | <&[R]> | Linux support? |
| 01:28 | <@celticminstrel> | Unfortunately not, though it appears to work reasonably well in WINE. |
| 01:28 | | * celticminstrel has no idea if the scons is up-to-date. |
| 01:28 | <&Derakon> | Wow, this time I froze the emulator. |
| 01:29 | <&Derakon> | ...and it won't re-open. Fuck. |
| 01:29 | <&Derakon> | Oh wait, there it goes. |
| 01:29 | <@celticminstrel> | I want to do Linux support, but it appears to mean I need to work with GTK (in order to have native menus). |
| 01:30 | <&[R]> | There are other toolkits |
| 01:31 | <@celticminstrel> | There are just five or six files accessing platform-specific stuff, so all that would need to be done is to provide a version of those for Linux (and Linux could easily use the Windows prefs loader). |
| 01:31 | <&[R]> | Though I suppose GTK likely has the least amount of spiders. |
| 01:31 | <@celticminstrel> | Are there? I admit I haven't looked very closely. |
| 01:31 | <&[R]> | There's Tk at least |
| 01:31 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh, I suppose... |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | My experience is that Qt has fewer spiders than GTK |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | But there are always spiders |
| 01:33 | <@celticminstrel> | There's also the fact that if I'm using GTK or Qt then the question arises why that's only for the Linux build. |
| 01:33 | <&[R]> | http://siag.nu/mowitz/ <-- also that |
| 01:34 | <@celticminstrel> | (Though I would be somewhat surprised if there were a Linux GUI framework that wasn't somewhat cross-platform.) |
| 01:34 | <@celticminstrel> | The only think I need it for is menus. |
| 01:35 | <@celticminstrel> | Though it would be cool if I could also use it for text fields (my custom text field is slow and not all that great). |
| 01:35 | <&[R]> | McMartin: presumably the codebase is C and not C++ |
| 01:35 | <&[R]> | Also I forgot Wx |
| 01:36 | <@celticminstrel> | It was originally, but not anymore. |
| 01:36 | | * [R] can't remember if the Linux smalltalk thing also had its own UI lib. |
| 01:36 | <&[R]> | I think Enlightenment has one too, but that might be Enlightenment specific. |
| 01:37 | | * [R] is pretty sure he's forgetting one |
| 01:37 | <&[R]> | (I did a run around looking at Linux UI toolkits a /long/ time ago when I was trying to do something and got fed up with GTK) |
| 01:38 | <@celticminstrel> | Again, I literally only need menus and possibly text fields. |
| 01:38 | <@celticminstrel> | ie, a menubar. Not popup menus. |
| 01:38 | <&[R]> | Yeah |
| 01:38 | <&[R]> | Mowitz at least covers those. |
| 01:39 | <@celticminstrel> | I see that. |
| 01:39 | <@celticminstrel> | I wonder if I can get a Cocoa text field plopped onto a generic OpenGL context. |
| 01:39 | | * celticminstrel is fairly the equivalent is doable in WinAPI, though I haven't investigated. |
| 01:41 | <@celticminstrel> | My Sconstruct isn't very robust as well. I should probably work on that at some point. |
| 01:41 | <@celticminstrel> | I don't use it, so it's somewhat low priority for me. |
| 01:42 | | * [R] learned Make. Other systems are heavy, confusing and do too much opaque magic for him. |
| 01:42 | <&[R]> | :/ |
| 01:43 | <@celticminstrel> | I think I went with scons because make didn't do quite enough "magic" - specifically I didn't want to have to always update every single new file. |
| 01:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Whee, looks like it works. |
| 01:43 | <@celticminstrel> | But it failed on some tests that don't fail in XCode... |
| 01:47 | <~Vornicus> | I used rake for the time I needed something like that |
| 01:48 | <~Vornicus> | It was waaaaay better than what I would have needed to do by hand |
| 01:49 | <@celticminstrel> | So the test is failing because scons is inexplicably not copying the input file that it depends on. |
| 01:50 | <@celticminstrel> | The other two files in that directory are copied just fine. |
| 01:50 | <&[R]> | Magic! |
| 01:50 | | * Derakon finds a utility that supposedly extracts the PICTs from a resource fork, grumbles as the resulting files cannot be read by anything. |
| 01:50 | <@celticminstrel> | And it's told to copy the entire directory containing that directory. |
| 01:51 | <@celticminstrel> | SO WHY DOES IT NOT WORK |
| 01:51 | | * celticminstrel sigh. |
| 01:54 | <~Vornicus> | celmin: is the thing that's not appearing itself a directory |
| 01:55 | <~Vornicus> | I know that some systems will fail to copy empty dirs |
| 02:00 | <&Derakon> | Hrm, I wonder if maybe the problem is with the actual source data. |
| 02:00 | <&Derakon> | Wish there was some reliable way to tell. |
| 02:00 | <~Vornicus> | pass me one of the files |
| 02:01 | <&Derakon> | http://derakon.mooo.com/~chriswei/temp2/test.pict |
| 02:01 | <&Derakon> | That's as extracted by a Python script I found online, which I had to modify slightly. |
| 02:02 | <~Vornicus> | ps claims it can open pict files, lets see what it thinks |
| 02:03 | <&Derakon> | ImageMagick and Preview both claim PICT support and failed, as did an online format converter. |
| 02:03 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah, looks like this thing is bad. |
| 02:03 | <&Derakon> | So much for easily extracting out all the letter tiles and making silly "text" images. |
| 02:08 | <@celticminstrel> | Vornicus: No, it's a .txt |
| 02:12 | | * Derakon eyes Wikipedia's description of the PICT format. |
| 02:12 | <&Derakon> | I'm not gonna try to reverse-engineer that so I can figure out why these files are busted. |
| 02:12 | <&Derakon> | CM, how does your loader work? |
| 02:15 | <~Vornicus> | this file is decidedly *not* a pict, let me tell you |
| 02:15 | <@celticminstrel> | Uses the Resource Manager to get a handle to the PICT resource, then skips over all the drawing opcodes to get to the pixel data. |
| 02:15 | <&Derakon> | How can you tell, Vorn? |
| 02:15 | <@celticminstrel> | (So it won't work for generic PICT files, only for bitmaps.) |
| 02:15 | <&Derakon> | That shouldn't be a problem. |
| 02:15 | <&[R]> | Presumably one of: file, vim or xxd |
| 02:15 | <~Vornicus> | do pict files typically start with 256 bytes of nul |
| 02:17 | <@celticminstrel> | I doubt it? |
| 02:17 | <&Derakon> | Vorn: per Wikipedia, yes. |
| 02:17 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 02:17 | <&Derakon> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PICT |
| 02:17 | <~Vornicus> | wait really? |
| 02:17 | <~Vornicus> | surprise! |
| 02:17 | < catadroid> | That seems inefficient |
| 02:17 | <&Derakon> | I assume it was meant as some kind of future-proofing. *shrug* |
| 02:18 | <&Derakon> | Here's DeRez's direct dump of the PICT resource fork: http://derakon.mooo.com/~chriswei/temp2/dump.txt |
| 02:18 | <&Derakon> | (Large) |
| 02:18 | <&Derakon> | I believe the PICT file I sent you earlier was basically binary-converting and -packing the string portion of each line of this dump. |
| 02:19 | <~Vornicus> | perhaps. looks like PICT is one of those terrible terrible ones like WMF |
| 02:20 | <@celticminstrel> | PICT is a bit like PS in that it encodes drawing instructions. |
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| 02:20 | <@celticminstrel> | Rather than just pixels. |
| 02:20 | <@celticminstrel> | In fact I think the instructions it encodes map directly to what QuickDraw's API exposes. |
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| 02:20 | <~Vornicus> | at least ps is readable by humans |
| 02:21 | <~Vornicus> | well, "readable" |
| 02:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | And writeable! |
| 02:24 | <&Derakon> | How do you detect where the opcodes end and the bitmap begins, CM? |
| 02:24 | <@celticminstrel> | Derakon: That's not really how it works; bitmaps are an opcode (or a set of them). |
| 02:25 | <@celticminstrel> | So I just skip opcodes until I get a bitmap one, then read in the pixel data (and colormap if needed). |
| 02:25 | <&Derakon> | Ah. What's the opcode for bitmap, then? |
| 02:25 | <@celticminstrel> | I don't remember... |
| 02:27 | <~Vornicus> | having hand written a fair amount of postscript (and used rake on it!) , indeed |
| 02:28 | <@celticminstrel> | According to my code, 0x0090, 0x0091, 0x0098, 0x0099, and 0x8182 are opcodes introducing bitmap data. |
| 02:28 | <@celticminstrel> | Wait no, the last is wrong. |
| 02:28 | <@celticminstrel> | It's 0x82xx, but I dunno what the xx is. |
| 02:28 | | * celticminstrel notes big-endian. |
| 02:28 | <&Derakon> | Noted. |
| 02:29 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, I think it's 0x8201 and 0x8200. And those two introduce QuickTime image data, so... |
| 02:29 | <@celticminstrel> | It could be almost anything. |
| 02:29 | <&Derakon> | Hm, those codes show up all over the place. |
| 02:29 | <@celticminstrel> | 0x8200 is easier to deal with tham 0x8201 if my code is correct. |
| 02:30 | <&Derakon> | Entirely possible they show up as part of the data too. |
| 02:30 | <&Derakon> | Bleh. |
| 02:30 | | * celticminstrel didn't bother handling 0x8201 at all. |
| 02:31 | <@celticminstrel> | Sorry, I swapped those two. |
| 02:31 | <&Derakon> | No worries. |
| 02:31 | <@celticminstrel> | 0x8200 is the one I didn't bother with, 0x8201 is the one that seems to be easier. |
| 02:35 | <@celticminstrel> | So anyway I was wondering if maybe I should switch it to using paintlib instead. |
| 02:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Which is quite a bit more than just image loading, mind you. |
| 02:38 | <@celticminstrel> | Or some other library that already solved this. |
| 02:39 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, okay, I think I'm giving up. |
| 02:39 | <@celticminstrel> | I had some problems with getting PICTs extracted using Rezilla and ResKnife, too. |
| 02:39 | <&Derakon> | I guess I can still manually "extract" the letter tiles at least by using the in-game debug menu to create an alphabet and taking a screenshot of it. |
| 02:39 | <@celticminstrel> | Some of the PICTs worked perfectly, some were mysteriously "shifted", and I think some might've had other problems. |
| 02:41 | <&Derakon> | Rezilla just shows white rectangles for them. |
| 02:41 | <&Derakon> | Also claims bogus dimensions, e.g. (711, -42247). |
| 02:42 | <&Derakon> | Maybe that's the problem? |
| 02:42 | <&Derakon> | I wonder where image dimensions are stored. |
| 02:42 | <@celticminstrel> | I think my specific problem with Rezilla was something like, the dimensions were correct but it thought the bitmap was supposed to be drawn at some position other than (0,0). |
| 02:43 | <@celticminstrel> | The image dimensions are stored in the PICT header, I think - before the opcodes. (So, if you open the resource with the template editor, you should be able to see them.) |
| 02:43 | <@celticminstrel> | They're also stored in the opcode data. |
| 02:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Which makes sense, since in theory you could have a PICT that combines several separate bitmaps on a canvas. |
| 02:47 | <~Vornicus> | technically quickdraw should handle it but if it's blow'd up then it's not likely you'll be able to unblow it up |
| 02:47 | | * celticminstrel finds another library (CImg) but can't tell if it supports PICT. |
| 02:48 | <@celticminstrel> | (Or loading from memory, for that matter.) |
| 02:50 | <@celticminstrel> | It does support from memory, but again, I can't tell what formats it supports. |
| 02:50 | <@celticminstrel> | (Plus like paintlib it's really an image manipulation library, so probably overkill for this purpose.) |
| 02:51 | <&Derakon> | Dangit. |
| 02:52 | <&Derakon> | My clever idea to figure out the savefile format was also foiled. |
| 02:52 | <&Derakon> | Despite stopping time and only making a single change to the terrain, the diff between two savefiles' records of the map contents is huge. |
| 02:52 | <&Derakon> | Mm, that might be due to an insertion or deletion throwing the dump off, though. |
| 02:54 | | * ToxicFrog reimplements ttyplay(1) in 30 lines of python |
| 02:55 | <@celticminstrel> | What's ttyplay? |
| 02:55 | <@macdjord> | celticminstrel: Text-only terminal recorder and replayer. |
| 03:12 | <@celticminstrel> | I sorta think I should make BoE use vertex arrays for some stuff, but since the graphics are spread across an unspecified number of sheets (and some of those are custom, so it's not something triviably solvable by just merging them), that's kinda hard. |
| 03:15 | <@celticminstrel> | ^trivially |
| 03:20 | <@celticminstrel> | I mean, I could figure out how many there are, create a huge render texture, and merge them at runtime... actually I think there's an upper limit on how many there are, which I guess is also helpful... |
| 03:25 | <&Derakon> | ...feck. |
| 03:25 | <&Derakon> | Wrote a big ol' script to take an input string and convert it into an image using the Taskmaker "letters on walls" terrain icons. |
| 03:26 | <&Derakon> | Then did this: |
| 03:26 | <&Derakon> | echo "Hello, world" > str2image.pl |
| 03:29 | <~Vornicus> | D: |
| 03:32 | <&Derakon> | There. http://derakon.mooo.com/~chriswei/temp2/hello.png |
| 03:33 | <&Derakon> | Involved manually creating the terrain I needed using the ingame debug menu, screenshotting it, dicing the screenshot up to get individual letters, and then writing (and rewriting) the script to take normal text and output images. |
| 03:33 | <@celticminstrel> | I thought you were going to say that something went wrong. |
| 03:33 | <&Derakon> | Funny you should say that. http://derakon.mooo.com/~chriswei/temp2/game.png |
| 03:34 | <&Derakon> | Might want to do something about the blank white background...but that would require parsing over all lines of the input to get the max line length. |
| 03:39 | <~Vornicus> | 'scuse me. 'scuse me. 'scuse me. |
| 03:39 | <&Derakon> | GET OUT OF THE WAY! |
| 03:39 | <&Derakon> | I can probably extract the .snd files and maybe convert them to something useful. |
| 03:39 | <&Derakon> | If so, every LP update will begin with the "TASKMAKER." voice clip. |
| 03:42 | <~Vornicus> | :D |
| 03:42 | <@celticminstrel> | I had trouble with extracting sound resources too. More trouble than with PICT. |
| 03:42 | <@celticminstrel> | In the end I wrote a Python script that reads the raw resource data and outputs it as... I think WAV. |
| 03:43 | <@celticminstrel> | I think the script doesn't handle a few cases, and failed on one or two of the sounds, though. |
| 03:44 | <@celticminstrel> | (Of course, to use that I first had to extract the resources to files. I think I used ResKnife for that, or maybe Rezilla. ResKnife would've been preferable if it works, though.) |
| 03:52 | <&Derakon> | DeRez is a builtin OSX utility for extracting resource fork contents. |
| 03:52 | <&Derakon> | It made that dump I linked earlier. |
| 03:53 | <&Derakon> | (There's apparently some way to use type declarations to format the output, but if you don't then you get the default output, which is ASCII-ized hexadecimal pretty-printed) |
| 04:05 | <@celticminstrel> | I think I didn't use DeRez mainly because it produces a "source code" output rather than a binary output. |
| 04:16 | <&McMartin> | I'm so proud of all of you |
| 04:20 | <&Derakon> | Hahaha. |
| 04:34 | <&Derakon> | Too bad it didn't work in my case. |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | I'm guessing SND is some kind of PCM format, that should be really easy to fix up |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | Also, ahahahaha |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | That UQM update I got working last week? |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | QuickDraw was in fact the technology that that update finally abandoned. |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | dump.txt crashed firefox -_- |
| 04:42 | <&Derakon> | Wow. It's only 3.3MB. |
| 04:42 | <&Derakon> | That's kind of sad. |
| 04:43 | | * McMartin digs |
| 04:43 | <&McMartin> | Oh, ouch |
| 04:43 | <&McMartin> | There are two .snd formats and I bet those are the wrong ones |
| 04:43 | <&Derakon> | There's a non-free OSX app that claims to be able to easily extract and convert .snd into something more useful. |
| 04:43 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 04:43 | <&Derakon> | dump.txt doesn't have any .snd, note; it's just PICT. |
| 04:43 | <&McMartin> | The question is whether they mean the .snd that is secretly .au, or the .snd that is some kind of insane MOD variant |
| 04:44 | <&McMartin> | And I bet these are the latter =( |
| 04:44 | <&Derakon> | The sounds are almost all short voice clips. |
| 04:45 | | * McMartin nods |
| 04:45 | <&McMartin> | Still, it's more likely https://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/documentation/mac/Sound/Sound-60.html #MARKER-9-400 than the .AU equivalent. |
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| 04:51 | <&Derakon> | Hrm. Online audio file converter doesn't error out on me, but it also just directs me to a blank screen. |
| 04:52 | <&Derakon> | Heh. Quicktime Player can't play it. |
| 04:52 | <&Derakon> | So either it's not the right kind of .snd, or there's more to extracting a sound resource than just dumping the binary into a file. |
| 04:52 | <&Derakon> | (c.f. those 512 bytes of nothing that you have to stick at the beginning of PICT files but that aren't in the resource) |
| 04:53 | <&McMartin> | What are the first two bytes of that .snd? |
| 04:53 | <&Derakon> | 00 02 |
| 04:54 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, it's the wrong kind |
| 04:54 | <&McMartin> | It's expecting the kind that starts ".snd" |
| 04:54 | <&Derakon> | Is 00 02 a valid "insane MOD variant" magic number? |
| 04:54 | <&McMartin> | Yes |
| 04:54 | <&Derakon> | Shit. |
| 04:54 | <&McMartin> | See my link |
| 04:54 | <&McMartin> | You might be able to struct it up and get raw sample data out |
| 04:55 | <&Derakon> | Easier to throw OBS at the problem, frankly. |
| 04:55 | <&McMartin> | ... right, of course, Basilisk can of course play them. |
| 04:55 | <&Derakon> | Since I can manually play the sounds via ResEdit. |
| 04:56 | <&Derakon> | Still disappointed by the PICTs, though. Would've been nice to get pure monster images. The ingame debug menu is kind of a mess. |
| 04:57 | <&Derakon> | Select a menu option (no keyboard shortcut), get a menu with hundreds of entries, scroll to the desired one, select it, click OK. |
| 04:57 | <&Derakon> | Also lots of them have non-indicative names because they use the same text shown when you "examine" things, and the game has a sense of humor. |
| 04:58 | <&Derakon> | (So the wall that shows a "+" is named "The love wall", "[" is "Bracket wall", and "]" is "Wall bracket") |
| 04:58 | <&Derakon> | (Never actually seen in-game, so far as I'm aware, is the "What is this ` anyway" wall) |
| 05:08 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 05:22 | <@celticminstrel> | Regarding the sounds: https://github.com/calref/cboe/blob/master/rsrc/convert_sounds.py |
| 05:23 | <@celticminstrel> | That also serves as partial documentation of the format. :P |
| 05:24 | <@celticminstrel> | If I knew how to fill in those missing parts, I probably would (just for completeness). |
| 05:24 | <@celticminstrel> | I think that was mostly gleaned from ancient Apple documentation. |
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| 08:15 | | mode/#code [+ao McMartin McMartin] by ChanServ |
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| 10:45 | | * TheWatcher stabs and stabs and stabs the Jenkins developers |
| 10:46 | <@TheWatcher> | This has to be one of the most poorly documented, unnecessarily byzantine, and outright fucking madness-inducing systems I've ever had to work with |
| 10:55 | <@Tamber> | "...and I write Perl!" |
| 10:57 | <@TheWatcher> | INDEED |
| 10:57 | < catadroid> | x) |
| 12:06 | <@abudhabi> | Technology! http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-37502136 |
| 12:48 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[lab] |
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| 14:50 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| --- Log closed Fri Sep 30 00:00:08 2016 |