| --- Log opened Mon Aug 22 00:00:16 2016 |
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| 00:55 | < catadroid> | http://k-reducer.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/how-when-and-why-to-name-things.html |
| 00:57 | < catadroid> | (here's where I discover the code has errors) |
| 00:58 | <&[R]> | That's your blog? |
| 00:58 | < catadroid> | Yes |
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| 10:10 | < catadroid> | Grmbl |
| 10:10 | < catadroid> | Why do game developers never write any tests :< |
| 10:11 | <@TheWatcher> | s/game/most/ |
| 10:12 | < catadroid> | Fair |
| 10:15 | | * Vornicus needs moar tests, that's for damn sure |
| 10:15 | <~Vornicus> | right now it's all smoke & playtesting and it makes me a little nervous |
| 10:15 | <@TheWatcher> | And I'd argue it's a symptom of the environment: usually there isn't enough time given to write the code in the first place, let alone any for the (usually harder) job of writing tests (let alone good ones) combined with programmers who have very variable training in test writing, and management who are either blatantly ignorant or willfully cavalier |
| 10:17 | <~Vornicus> | my test writing training is certainly not as good as I'd like |
| 10:19 | < catadroid> | It was more of a rhetorical NOOOOO WHYYYYY than a real query |
| 10:19 | < catadroid> | It's cultural |
| 10:19 | < catadroid> | There's also a lot less pressure to write long term maintainable systems |
| 10:19 | <~Vornicus> | though I have no idea how I'd test something like making sure all my draw commands get called in the right order |
| 10:19 | < catadroid> | Because unlike most software you get to throw it away and start anew fairly often |
| 10:20 | < catadroid> | Draw commands are testable by eye |
| 10:20 | < catadroid> | Though we do have some automated tests that check the output textures from shaders |
| 10:21 | <@TheWatcher> | My fun one is databases, really. I end up with scripts to do setup and teardown of temporarie copies of databases to test modules against, and it's a real pain in the arse sometimes |
| 10:21 | <@TheWatcher> | *temporary |
| 10:22 | <~Vornicus> | databases are bane of both testing and deployment |
| 10:23 | <~Vornicus> | Absolutely the worst. |
| 10:23 | < catadroid> | You can write too many tests though |
| 10:24 | < catadroid> | But I wouldn't utter that to anyone I wasn't sure Gets It wrt writing them in the first place |
| 10:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Also, I really need to fix up this daemon so I don't need to stop it each time I restart mysql |
| 10:28 | <~Vornicus> | especially when you're in a system that stores file paths and uris, and then deployment also involves the utter terror of fixing that shit up on production |
| 10:35 | < catadroid> | I'm merging array changes made by graduate programmers |
| 10:35 | < catadroid> | This is exciting |
| 10:35 | < catadroid> | That is, changes to our std::vector implementation |
| 10:36 | <@TheWatcher> | ... I'm sorry |
| 10:36 | <@TheWatcher> | That said |
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| 10:37 | <@TheWatcher> | At least your graduate programmers apparently know c++ |
| 10:37 | <@TheWatcher> | Ours fucking don't, barring the tiny handful that teach themselves, because *utter sodding insanity* |
| 10:43 | < catadroid> | My first language, aside from a couple of tiny toy things in BASIC, was C++ |
| 10:43 | < catadroid> | Oh, and some simple UnrealScript things |
| 10:44 | < catadroid> | Which is closer to object pascal than anything else |
| 10:44 | < catadroid> | And we wouldn't hire them as graduates unless they knew C++ |
| 10:44 | < catadroid> | So it's kind of self selecting that way |
| 10:47 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, it's just a pet gripe of mine that we're graduating students who can't program in C or C++. Get me and Jeff over in hardware talking about this and we can rant for hours about the mess... |
| 10:48 | <@TheWatcher> | (my first language was zx80 assembler. I wonder how much of that I still remember, probably not much now) |
| 10:48 | <@TheWatcher> | *z80 |
| 10:58 | | * catadroid nods |
| 10:58 | < catadroid> | I think there's the pure representation aspect of programming and the "this is how the machine you are programming for actually runs" aspect |
| 10:58 | < catadroid> | And they're both important |
| 10:59 | < catadroid> | Did you read my thing about names? |
| 11:00 | < catadroid> | Also our existing implementation of array copy was horribly inefficient -_- |
| 11:00 | < catadroid> | Sigh |
| 11:12 | <@TheWatcher> | It's actually on my screen to read once I get this marking done >.< |
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| 12:01 | < wolfmoon> | Hey :D |
| 12:02 | <@Pi> | Hey wolfmoon :) |
| 12:02 | < wolfmoon> | Pi: How are you? |
| 12:02 | <@Pi> | Not bad. |
| 12:02 | < wolfmoon> | Cool ^^ |
| 12:06 | < catadroid> | Hi hi |
| 12:13 | | * catadroid is having Ideas |
| 12:14 | < wolfmoon> | catadroid: what is the ideas you are having? |
| 12:17 | < catadroid> | About namespace oriented programming |
| 12:23 | <@Pi> | Obligatory Zen of Python quote :) |
| 12:24 | <@Pi> | ("Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!") |
| 12:25 | < catadroid> | Hm? |
| 12:43 | <@Pi> | Do you know the Zen of Python? |
| 12:43 | <@Pi> | It's a collection of Python aphorisms by Tim Peters. |
| 12:44 | <@Pi> | Immortalised in https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ |
| 12:44 | <@Pi> | (And available at the REPL if you type "import this" :) |
| 12:54 | | * TheWatcher finishes marking just before losing the will to live |
| 12:55 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, next run of this course, -Werror goes in as a thing they set right from the start >.< |
| 12:56 | < catadroid> | There's a big |
| 12:56 | < catadroid> | Now there's a bug* |
| 12:57 | < catadroid> | Our vector implementation would clear an array if you assigned it to itself |
| 12:57 | <@TheWatcher> | ... eeeegh |
| 12:57 | < catadroid> | Good times |
| 13:00 | < wolfmoon> | Is everyone on here local to South Africa? |
| 13:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Nope |
| 13:01 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 40 nicks [35 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal] |
| 13:01 | < wolfmoon> | TheWatcher: Ah :D where are you from? |
| 13:02 | <@TheWatcher> | England, mostly. |
| 13:04 | <@TheWatcher> | As far as I know, only yourself, jerith, and froztbyte are in .za |
| 13:08 | <@Pi> | I'm in SA too :) |
| 13:08 | < wolfmoon> | And Pi |
| 13:08 | < wolfmoon> | Jinx :P |
| 13:09 | <@TheWatcher> | That's what I get for relying on my meatbrains rather than consulting the exocortex >.> |
| 13:10 | <@TheWatcher> | (srsly, want my damned neural lace already) |
| 13:13 | < wolfmoon> | TheWatcher: neural lace? |
| 13:15 | <@TheWatcher> | A concept that crops up in various places in science fiction, in this case I'm referring to the form Iain M Banks uses in the Culture novels: a wireless brain-computer interface that is implanted in the brain and grows through it, integrating into the brain |
| 13:16 | < wolfmoon> | http://gizmodo.com/scientists-just-invented-the-neural-lace-1711540938 |
| 13:16 | < wolfmoon> | 99% sure it is a spoof site |
| 13:17 | < wolfmoon> | But that would be insanely amazing if it is properly developed :D |
| 13:18 | < wolfmoon> | Then we can effectively become cyborg |
| 13:20 | < wolfmoon> | I wonder the applications if we are able to link it to the optic cortex |
| 13:21 | <@TheWatcher> | Read the books, you'll get some idea of the scope of the possibilities~ |
| 13:22 | <@TheWatcher> | (That said, skip Consider Phlebas until you've read some of the others - unless you like your intro to a series to be well written but rather distinctly depressing) |
| 13:27 | < wolfmoon> | I shall try it ^^ |
| 13:34 | <&jeroud> | wolfmoon: Do I perhaps know you? |
| 13:34 | < wolfmoon> | jeroud: Do you know an Abigail? |
| 13:35 | <@TheWatcher> | (Also, that gizmondo link isn't a spoof, that's a real thing - but the thing it's talking about is to a lace what a paper airplane is to an SR-71) |
| 13:35 | <&jeroud> | wolfmoon: I'm not sure. Did I meet you on Saturday? |
| 13:35 | < wolfmoon> | jeroud: I was with Pi |
| 13:36 | <&jeroud> | Then I know where you live. :-P |
| 13:36 | <@Pi> | :) |
| 13:36 | <&jeroud> | (I'm jerith usually. jeroud is my IRCCloud account that I use on my phone.) |
| 13:37 | | * jeroud returns to work stuff. |
| 13:38 | < wolfmoon> | jeroud: Ah :P Yes, then you have met me XD |
| 13:38 | | * wolfmoon waves jarid goodbye |
| 13:46 | | * TheWatcher uughs |
| 13:47 | <@TheWatcher> | Been teaching for 15 years, and just when I think I've seen it all... |
| 13:47 | < wolfmoon> | TheWatcher: What happened? |
| 13:49 | <@TheWatcher> | Short version: student is struggling massively with pointers, hilarity ensues. (And by hilarity I mean core dumps) |
| 14:05 | < wolfmoon> | TheWatcher: what are those things? |
| 14:09 | <@TheWatcher> | core dumps are files containing a the memory of a process when it crashes, including its code, stack contents, heap, and so on. You can load core dumps into a debugger to inspect the state the process was in when it died and (as long as it's not utterly corrupt) work out what went wrong. |
| 14:10 | < wolfmoon> | TheWatcher: Oh, cool |
| 14:10 | < wolfmoon> | Heard of it just was not 100% sure |
| 14:10 | < wolfmoon> | I can imagine those being very useful |
| 14:11 | <@TheWatcher> | Can be, it depends how badly things went wrong! |
| 14:12 | <@abudhabi> | You know what I hate? |
| 14:12 | <@abudhabi> | Bugs. |
| 14:13 | < wolfmoon> | I like bugs. It allows one to exploit them. To find them; to destroy them |
| 14:13 | < wolfmoon> | ;-; |
| 14:22 | < catadroid> | I like bugs, they make wonderful mounts |
| 14:24 | | * TheWatcher flails at db schema changes and fixing up all references to renamed fields |
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| 15:17 | <@abudhabi> | wolfmoon: Whereas I hate that kind of detective work. |
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| 15:19 | <@abudhabi> | Wordpress uses some sort of database in the backend, right? |
| 15:20 | < wolfmoon> | abudhabi: Doesn't all to most websites? How else would they store their stuff? :) |
| 15:20 | <@abudhabi> | In files. |
| 15:22 | <@TheWatcher> | abudhabi: yes, it uses mysql/mariaDB |
| 15:22 | <@abudhabi> | OK. |
| 15:23 | <@abudhabi> | There any guides on how to copy an existing installation and put it someplace else, so I can dabble with the style and content without affecting production? |
| 15:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Dunno, but assuming you have a testing machine that has mysql and apache/nginx and php available, rsync the wordpress directory over, dump the database from production, import it onto testing, edit wordpress/wp-config.php to fix up credentials, and check that the paths and URLs in the wp_options table on testing are changed as needed |
| 15:27 | <@abudhabi> | Was hoping for something less manual, but I guess that works. |
| 15:29 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, yeah, there's the added fun of URLs in posts. once you've dumped the database from prod, before importing into testing you might want to do some find-and-replaces on URLs in the sql to fix them up for the new location. |
| 15:29 | <@abudhabi> | That's not really an issue, I think. |
| 15:29 | <@abudhabi> | I can deal with some broken links, so long as it overall functions. |
| 15:30 | <@TheWatcher> | Righto, the important ones are in wp_options, then. You need to fix them, or breaking everything |
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| 16:22 | <@abudhabi> | Hm. |
| 16:22 | <~Vornicus> | abudhabi! Did you make progress with the orbits thing |
| 16:23 | <@abudhabi> | Not really, did other stuff. Now I'm working on making a local test copy of a wordpress install. |
| 16:26 | <@abudhabi> | TheWatcher: How I made apache understand what php files are? |
| 16:27 | <@abudhabi> | And by that I mean that it should process them, not display them as plaintext. |
| 16:35 | <@abudhabi> | How important is "apache2-mpm-worker"? |
| 16:35 | <@abudhabi> | Trying to install php5, but it won't without removing some packages. |
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| 19:03 | <&jeroud> | The best way to deal with PHP is to mandate that it doesn't come anywhere near any machines you control. |
| 19:05 | <&jeroud> | That said, pretty much all CMS/blog/webthings are pretty terrible to work with. |
| 19:08 | <&jeroud> | Oh, wow. I just realised something. |
| 19:10 | <&jeroud> | The reason all this container management and clustering software is so terrible is that it's written by the same kinds of people who built wordpress and friends when web 2.0 was the big thing. |
| 19:10 | <&jeroud> | Wow, that's depressing. |
| 19:10 | <&jeroud> | I need a *very* stiff drink now. |
| 19:11 | <&jeroud> | Except I'm at band practice and my bottle of Glenfiddich is still packed in a box somewhere. |
| 19:12 | <&jeroud> | And there's nowhere to buy scotch at 10pm on my way home from band practice in a couple of hours. |
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| 20:25 | | * catalyst takes the night off from writing about programming |
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| 21:04 | | * abudhabi pokes anyone who knows LAMP. |
| 21:05 | <@abudhabi> | I have PHP5 installed, apache2 is running. |
| 21:05 | <@abudhabi> | But instead of executing index.php, it gives it to me raw. |
| 21:05 | <@abudhabi> | chmod +x did not help. |
| 21:10 | <&[R]> | I'd ask you to post your apache2 config, but it's in like 50 files. |
| 21:10 | <&[R]> | Somewhere along the lines, mod_php should get loaded. |
| 21:11 | <&[R]> | Probably somewhere in /etc/apache/mods_loaded/ or some such |
| 21:11 | | * [R] hasn't touched Apache in a long time, so bear we him |
| 21:15 | <@abudhabi> | I don't have the first clue in which of the 50 files to look. |
| 21:16 | <@abudhabi> | Per a2enmod, the php5 module is already enabled. |
| 21:26 | <&[R]> | a2enmod? |
| 21:27 | <@abudhabi> | The module enables for apache? |
| 21:28 | <&[R]> | Can you post the results of: fgrep -Ri php /etc/apache |
| 21:29 | <&jeroud> | That's a helper that puts symlinks to configs in places apache2 can find them, IIRC. |
| 21:29 | <&[R]> | (Or whatever your Apache directory is) |
| 21:29 | <@abudhabi> | [R]: http://pastebin.com/WFkhsMAT |
| 21:30 | <&[R]> | Okay, and you've reloaded Apache since you installed PHP? |
| 21:31 | <@abudhabi> | Multiple times. |
| 21:32 | <&[R]> | Can you post the virtual host you're accessing the php file from? |
| 21:32 | <@abudhabi> | The what? |
| 21:33 | <&[R]> | How much configuration have you put into Apache? |
| 21:33 | <@abudhabi> | None. |
| 21:33 | <@abudhabi> | Well, none that I recall. |
| 21:33 | <&[R]> | This is base install config, or has someone else touched it? |
| 21:34 | <@abudhabi> | Pretty sure only I have access to this machine. I might have been enabling user public_html, but I'm unsure if I needed to do that. |
| 21:34 | <&[R]> | Are you trying to use user URLs? |
| 21:35 | <&[R]> | Which are http://host.example/~rstamer/ |
| 21:35 | <@abudhabi> | Yep. |
| 21:35 | <@abudhabi> | Will that not work for some reason? |
| 21:35 | <&[R]> | Okay, yes, you need to enable that. |
| 21:35 | <@abudhabi> | Well, they work for HTML. |
| 21:35 | <&[R]> | /etc/apache2/mods-enabled/php5.conf:# Running PHP scripts in user directories is disabled by default |
| 21:35 | <&[R]> | /etc/apache2/mods-enabled/php5.conf:# To re-enable PHP in user directories comment the following lines |
| 21:35 | <@abudhabi> | Right. |
| 21:36 | <&[R]> | /etc/apache2/mods-enabled/php5.conf: SetHandler application/x-httpd-php <-- what's the line before that? |
| 21:36 | | * [R] is looking for <FilesMatch or something |
| 21:37 | <@abudhabi> | [R]: <FilesMatch ".+\.ph(p[345]?|t|tml)$"> |
| 21:38 | <&[R]> | Have you checked Apache's error logs? |
| 21:38 | <@abudhabi> | Don't even know where they are. |
| 21:38 | <@abudhabi> | [R]: Right, PHP now works! |
| 21:38 | <@Tamber> | /var/log/httpd* is a good place to start looking |
| 21:38 | <&[R]> | /var/log forget the exact name, but they don't use syslog, so it's a custom name. |
| 21:38 | <&jeroud> | Usually /var/log/apache2/ or something. |
| 21:38 | <@abudhabi> | And it is complaining at me for not having the mysql extension. |
| 21:39 | <&McMartin> | Eventually you will run out of things that can go wrong, and then it will work great |
| 21:39 | <&[R]> | Which is deprecated, but you've got PHP5, not PHP7 so that's fine. |
| 21:39 | <&jeroud> | Is PHP up to 7 now? |
| 21:39 | <&[R]> | Yes |
| 21:40 | <&[R]> | They completely abandoned PHP 6 |
| 21:40 | <&jeroud> | So is 7 another sequel to 5? |
| 21:40 | <&[R]> | Due to them trying to implement something and completely failing, so they fell back from PHP 5 |
| 21:40 | | * abudhabi installs php5-mysql, now error is about failing to establish database connection. |
| 21:41 | <&[R]> | What are you installing anyways? |
| 21:41 | <&jeroud> | abudhabi: You have a different error! That's progress! |
| 21:42 | <@abudhabi> | [R]: I'm making a development copy of a wordpress installation. |
| 21:42 | <&[R]> | Wordpress uses the mysql module instead of mysqli or PDO? O.o |
| 21:43 | <@abudhabi> | I have no idea. It complained about php not having it. |
| 21:44 | <&jeroud> | It's probably just configured that way or something. |
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| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | "Android apps need to request permission to access the storage but before Nougat the options were "all or nothing." Apps got access to every file on your device, or they got access to no files on your device. A new Nougat feature called "Scoped Directory Access" allows apps to request access to a specific folder on your device." |
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| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | One of those features that makes you terrified about how the past wasn't an apocalypse |
| 22:44 | <@ErikMesoy> | what do you mean it wasnt |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | There still exist things that aren't burned down |
| 22:45 | <@Tamber> | It wasn't an apocalypse? You mean I've been eating babies for the past year for nothing?! |
| 22:45 | <@ErikMesoy> | I'm pretty sure the past of IT was pretty apocalyptic. "six hundred billion squillion dollars lost to hack" and "everyone's passwords stolen" |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | Right, but then you made 700 hundred billion squillion dollars along the way |
| 22:46 | <@ErikMesoy> | and the various koans at the Codeless Code describing how software engineering is comparable to living in the Plane of Limbo, where you don't know if gravity will be the same at the end of the project |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | Right, that's just Part Of The Problem |
| 22:46 | <@ErikMesoy> | We've been pretty much surfing the blastwave. |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | But it's still profitable to run online commerce sites as opposed to them existing purely as money-laundering operations |
| 22:46 | | * abudhabi gets wordpress to half-work. |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | All of Civilization is an endless plate-spinning exercise, but this is like revealing that the plates no longer have grenades on top and we aren't using drinking straws instead of wooden poles now. |
| 22:47 | <@abudhabi> | The frontpage is up, but nothing else. |
| 22:49 | <@Tamber> | abudhabi, oh, you've got the secure version of wordpress? |
| 22:50 | <@abudhabi> | I don't know about security. This is just a development copy of the online version. |
| 22:50 | <@abudhabi> | I just want it to work enough that I can show the middle manager the changes they have requested. |
| 22:55 | <&[R]> | The ones where they want blinking neon green marquees on hot pink FIGHTING SEISURE ROBOT backgrounds? |
| 22:56 | | * Vornicus is glad he works with an actual designer when dealing with wordpress |
| 22:57 | <&[R]> | But then where would the SEISURE ROBOTS live? |
| 23:02 | <~Vornicus> | man i don't know |
| 23:24 | <~Vornicus> | THinking on powerups for vornball. Starting to have a better variety instead of "fifteen types of bomb" which I had last time |
| 23:26 | <~Vornicus> | and they don't require fuckin' fluid mechanics either |
| 23:39 | | catadroid` is now known as catadroid |
| 23:39 | < catadroid> | :3 |
| 23:55 | <@Alek> | what's the game basically again? |
| 23:56 | <~Vornicus> | metroid except you're always the ball |
| 23:56 | <~Vornicus> | also pretty sure it's going to be mostly peaceful |
| 23:57 | < catadroid> | The galaxy is finally at peace |
| 23:58 | | * Vornicus fistbumps catadroid |
| 23:59 | <@Alek> | hmm. |
| 23:59 | | * catadroid ^5 |
| 23:59 | <&jeroud> | Vornicus: Do they require parthenogenetic fluid mechanics? |
| 23:59 | <@Alek> | so. as the ball, can you or can you not shoot? |
| 23:59 | <@Alek> | how about enlarge/shrink powerups? would those be of any use? |
| --- Log closed Tue Aug 23 00:00:32 2016 |