| --- Log opened Sat Aug 20 00:00:44 2016 |
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| 02:12 | | * ToxicFrog adds whisper support to his ifmud proxy, finally |
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| 05:45 | | * Vornicus vornballs. |
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| 07:39 | < catadroid> | I think the correct way to think about functions/procedures is as small virtual machine instances, not sub processes |
| 07:40 | < catadroid> | And the return value is just another channel |
| 07:40 | < catadroid> | I guess logically this means that all functions in C have an implicit return value which is time based |
| 07:41 | <&[R]> | lolwut |
| 07:41 | < catadroid> | Since the instancing machine blocks until that value is returned |
| 07:41 | < catadroid> | As in, I think there's a generalisation of function call semantics that's unavailable in C like languages |
| 07:42 | < catadroid> | Without immense effort |
| 07:43 | < catadroid> | But if you have a language that exposes return values not as a special case, but instead a standard output channel, that concurrent programming becomes a lot more tractable |
| 07:43 | < catadroid> | Then it's easy to express 'call this and wait' separate from 'call this and continue' |
| 07:44 | < catadroid> | Without some special syntax |
| 07:44 | < catadroid> | Although I suppose that's sort of what await does |
| 07:44 | | * catadroid considers |
| 07:45 | < catadroid> | Anyway, my point is that return values aren't special, they're just another channel |
| 07:46 | < catadroid> | And that machines controlling other machines means you don't get a tree, you get something more iterative |
| 07:46 | < catadroid> | I think tail call semantics are a partial model of this |
| 07:47 | < catadroid> | I think the stack vs heap model may in fact not be the be all and end all :o |
| 07:48 | < catadroid> | Also, I am considering a world where global variables aren't even thought about, because every value is owned by one of these machines |
| 07:48 | < catadroid> | And the program just begins by calling an entry point |
| 07:49 | < catadroid> | You can express this as a normal stack based execution in the imperative case |
| --- Log closed Sat Aug 20 07:52:08 2016 |
| --- Log opened Sat Aug 20 07:52:19 2016 |
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| 07:53 | < catadroid> | This also reduces context massively for each machine |
| 07:53 | < catadroid> | Hrm |
| 07:56 | < catadroid> | Cognitive complexity at a process level is actually really high, since the stack is a a massive branching mechanism |
| 07:57 | < catadroid> | So you actually need to think about the whole stack more often than you would expect |
| 07:57 | < catadroid> | Errors in this context then become more about killing individual machine execution |
| 07:57 | < catadroid> | I wonder what that means for the program as a whole |
| 07:58 | < catadroid> | I guess you get machine level errors expressed by channels |
| 07:58 | < catadroid> | Which means that you can implement try/catch mechanics by using some kind of standard error channel |
| 07:58 | < catadroid> | And select statements |
| 07:59 | < catadroid> | Which immediately makes them a lot more tractable |
| 07:59 | < catadroid> | Downside: return values and error channels become first class |
| 07:59 | < catadroid> | Which means they are no longer implicit |
| 07:59 | < catadroid> | But also no longer special case |
| 08:00 | < catadroid> | Upside: return values and error channels are no longer special case nor implicit |
| 08:02 | < catadroid> | There must some global state to be able to instance machines though |
| 08:03 | < catadroid> | But a function call + the input is a machine instance |
| 08:03 | < catadroid> | Function is such a bad word to use for procedures |
| 08:04 | < catadroid> | I do like the insight that a map or array is a literal mathematical function though |
| 08:05 | | * catadroid feels her brain turning inside out |
| 08:05 | < catadroid> | A program is a system of these machines |
| 08:06 | < catadroid> | But the fact that we see a program as a branching tree is a mistake on modern hardware, I believe. I think the model of C like languages where serial execution is the common action actually doesn't work very well now we have massively parallel architectures |
| 08:07 | | * catadroid hms to herself |
| 08:07 | < catadroid> | Dammit I want to code but I'm at my parents |
| 08:08 | < catadroid> | Expressing machines as discrete steps with branching decisions does feel correct though |
| 08:09 | < catadroid> | Largely because people are good at thinking in that way |
| 08:09 | < catadroid> | Hmhm |
| 08:09 | < catadroid> | Communication as first class objects is rather awesome |
| 08:09 | | * catadroid is starting to go in circles |
| 08:10 | | * catadroid looks at backscroll, feels a little sheepish |
| 08:13 | <&McMartin> | 0xbaa |
| 08:14 | < catadroid> | :3 |
| 08:16 | <~Vornicus> | I'm not sure pushing in the direction of virtual machines is necessarily the right path here; one of the points of virtual machines are their very *lack* of external effects on the rest of the system, which feels funny when we're trying also to point out the misnomer that is calling procedures -- things *with* external effects -- functions |
| 08:17 | < catadroid> | I think what i mean by virtual machines isn't the same thing that the current term means, so I should find a different name |
| 08:17 | < catadroid> | What I mean is machines you can create multiple instances of at will |
| 08:18 | < catadroid> | You are correct |
| 08:18 | < catadroid> | Coroutines is actually probably a good word |
| 08:18 | < catadroid> | But they aren't really routines |
| 08:18 | < catadroid> | I wonder if input should also be via channels |
| 08:19 | < catadroid> | I mean that's essentially what function parameters are |
| 08:19 | < catadroid> | But procedures and functions are different things |
| 08:20 | < catadroid> | So perhaps a procedure as a pure logic object that is instanced and takes input values on channels is a normal thing |
| 08:20 | < catadroid> | I'm going to need to play with that |
| 08:20 | < catadroid> | There's generalisations that are kind to hardware and generalisations that are not |
| 08:22 | < catadroid> | Maybe it's a thing like where you have a blueprint for a machine and you can build instances that run |
| 08:22 | < catadroid> | Hm |
| 08:22 | < catadroid> | I need some paper |
| 08:31 | < catadroid> | Yeah, at a first glance this is weird and unusable |
| 08:31 | < catadroid> | Time to refine x) |
| 08:33 | < catadroid> | OTOH side effects are considered side effects because procedures are treated the same as functions |
| 08:41 | < catadroid> | Hm hm hm |
| 08:43 | <~Vornicus> | Okayso. When I collide while travelling on a floor I can still do the bounce check and such; however, sometimes I hit a wall and I run out of velocity: if the wall is at a right angle or worse to the floor I'm traveling on, the "along" pushes me into the floor and the bounce can too. |
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| 09:04 | <~Vornicus> | So there is always a case where I end up stopping, and then the forces are stuck along the two points. This ... isn't so bad. I guess the real task is to make sure that when it doesn't happen I skip the two-contacts state entirely |
| 09:10 | <~Vornicus> | Okay, that makes sense. |
| 09:17 | <~Vornicus> | As a mathematician, THIS IS TOO MUCH FUCKING MATH |
| 09:17 | < catadroid> | x) |
| 09:18 | <~Vornicus> | And then I have to add circular surfaces, and natural slowing... |
| 09:24 | <~Vornicus> | And then it's time to start on editing and art. |
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| 09:29 | <~Vornicus> | and if I get that far then I am pretty sure this will be the game I finish |
| 09:37 | <~Vornicus> | Refactoring notes time: I should move collision and wall-following logic into the walls; I think it makes more sense there. I need longer names for things like "midair" and stuff. For collisions while wall following I'm actually going to need circle-circle and circle-line intersects, but thankfully I know the score on those. The one I'm *really* worried about though is a midair collide with circle; there be dragons, 'cause parabola vs |
| 09:37 | <~Vornicus> | circle is *four hits* |
| 09:39 | <~Vornicus> | I definitely need a fit-for-purpose matrix; the one I have is for 3d and all its tools assume I'm working in 3d. |
| 09:42 | <~Vornicus> | And once I have that thing I can start throwing those around instead of my ridiculous rinkydink thing where I use some stupid dot product shit to rotate into a line's space. |
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| 10:30 | < Pink> | I crings when I see vorn say 'too much math' |
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| 18:12 | | * abudhabi is still struggling with that damn 3d coordinate conversion. |
| 18:16 | <@abudhabi> | The damn thing appears to be doing a tiny circle at one semi-major axis length above zero. |
| 18:16 | <@abudhabi> | Instead of a large circle at zero. |
| 18:17 | <@abudhabi> | No, wait, it's not even that. |
| 18:17 | <@abudhabi> | If I set inclination to 0, it goes up and down the z axis only. |
| 18:18 | <@abudhabi> | The calculated distance looks fine - slight variations on the semi-major axis, since the eccentricity is set to be small. |
| 18:18 | <@abudhabi> | The converted cartesian coordinates are, however, insane. |
| 18:18 | <@ErikMesoy> | I don't recognize the problem, I can only suggest the usual trace routines like breaking down the individual coordinates and running them back and forth. |
| 18:27 | <@abudhabi> | ErikMesoy: http://pastebin.com/raw/1zu7S4qX |
| 18:30 | <@ErikMesoy> | Let me just say that [x * 0.1 for x in range(0, 64)] is a hilarious hack for 2pi. |
| 18:31 | <@abudhabi> | It's a hack for no built-in decimal iterator. |
| 18:34 | <@abudhabi> | I'm no longer sure I'm using the correct formulas. |
| 18:34 | <@abudhabi> | I might need to *generate* theta from other things. |
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| 18:37 | <@ErikMesoy> | Why does (r) exist? |
| 18:37 | <@ErikMesoy> | r() |
| 18:37 | <@abudhabi> | It's Kepler's formula for distance from the primary. |
| 18:37 | <@abudhabi> | Given semi-major axis and current angle on the plane. |
| 18:38 | <@abudhabi> | (And eccentricity.) |
| 18:42 | <@abudhabi> | Yeah, OK, inclination is not theta. |
| 18:42 | <@abudhabi> | I need to find theta. |
| 18:43 | <@ErikMesoy> | I have reversed some sines and cosines. |
| 18:43 | <@ErikMesoy> | It seems to be producing more sensible results. |
| 18:43 | <~Vornicus> | theta is probably argument of periapsis |
| 18:44 | <@abudhabi> | Vornicus: I'm using theta for the up/down angle, and phi for the right/left angle on the plane. |
| 18:44 | <@abudhabi> | I have orbital inclination, and I need to find theta. |
| 18:47 | <@ErikMesoy> | abudhabi: Relative to pastebin, I swapped sin(th) and cos(th) around everywhere and got what looks correct. |
| 18:49 | <@abudhabi> | Which makes it correct in 2D only. |
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| 18:50 | <@ErikMesoy> | This is full of wat. |
| 18:50 | < catadroid> | When I get home I want to write about cognitive complexity and do some examples |
| 18:51 | < catadroid> | I'm saying this mostly in the hope that if I do not, that someone will poke me about it |
| 18:51 | | * Vornicus found his brain in hyperdrive as he tried to sleep |
| 18:52 | | * Vornicus makes sure the poking stick is properly cleaned |
| 18:52 | <@ErikMesoy> | Mmhm. The formula for z is wrong. |
| 18:53 | <@ErikMesoy> | z() is supposed to take the angular coordinate of a point as argument, and this argument varies over calls. You're giving it the constant angle of a plane. |
| 18:53 | <@abudhabi> | Yes, this is what I'm talking about. |
| 18:53 | <@abudhabi> | That theta thing? It's not inclination. |
| 18:54 | <@abudhabi> | Theta will vary according to particular location on the orbital circle. |
| 18:54 | <@abudhabi> | Inclination does not. |
| 18:55 | <@ErikMesoy> | call something like z(incl*trig(fi),d) |
| 18:58 | <~Vornicus> | My brain was absolutely stuffed with the tile geometry stuff for the editor |
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| 19:23 | | * Vornicus needs to get collisions working, then roundage, then editor |
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| 20:54 | | * catalyst is writing a blog post |
| 21:06 | <@TheWatcher> | \o/ |
| 21:06 | <@Alek> | /o\ |
| 21:09 | <@Tamber> | \o\ |
| 21:10 | <@ErikMesoy> | vov |
| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | \m/_(>_<)_\m/ |
| 21:25 | <@Alek> | http://i.imgur.com/phwayPX.jpg |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | Yusssssss |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | The correct response is, in fact |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | ;_; |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | Or maybe ;_; |
| 21:31 | <@ErikMesoy> | note: "In Unicode, it is separately encoded as U+037E ; GREEK QUESTION MARK, but the similarity is so great that the code point canonically decomposes to U+003B ; SEMICOLON making the marks identical in practice." |
| 21:31 | | * TheWatcher tries it |
| 21:31 | <@abudhabi> | If it were me, I would eventually delete or comment out the whole line and rewrite it. |
| 21:31 | <@ErikMesoy> | so it might just get optimized away depending on devtool? |
| 21:32 | <&McMartin> | Most devtools are defined in terms of raw code points, and do not permit canonicalization or decomposition as part of lexing. |
| 21:32 | <@TheWatcher> | GCC at least tells you " error: stray â\315â in program ... error: stray â\276â in program", so it's pretty easy to see something is wrong >.> |
| 21:33 | <&[R]> | What does MS' C# compiler say? |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | Does C# permit Unicode in identifiers? |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | For full excitement you probably want to use Go or Swift here. |
| 21:33 | <@TheWatcher> | [R]: Dunno, not got it installed on this system |
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| 22:17 | <@Pi> | catadroid: That makes me think of the graph reduction approach to implementing functional languages. |
| 22:52 | < catalyst> | ...I am not going to complete this post tonight |
| 22:52 | < catalyst> | I shall break until tomorrow |
| 22:52 | < catalyst> | It is turning out to be well worth it though |
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| 23:23 | <@Azash> | https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-Mount |
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| --- Log closed Sun Aug 21 00:00:00 2016 |