| --- Log opened Sat Jul 30 00:00:09 2016 |
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| 12:35 | | * catalyst runs an empty app on her phone, declares some form of victory |
| 12:49 | < catalyst> | ...I could do that thing where I build another half-working IRC client >.> |
| 13:38 | < catalyst> | OK, it looks like android development is pretty sweet, and bounds ahead of WPF's nonsense (my other extensive experience with GUI apps) |
| 14:11 | < catalyst> | It appears that the Android SDK's naming for UI views is a lot more straightforward than either JavaFX or WPF |
| 14:11 | < catalyst> | heh |
| 14:11 | < catalyst> | LinearLayout vs FlowPane vs StackPanel |
| 14:12 | < catalyst> | ...when did I become a GUI developer? |
| 14:13 | | * TheWatcher patpats |
| 14:13 | < catalyst> | D: |
| 14:13 | | * catalyst screams and thinks about pointers and memory addresses and |
| 14:13 | < catalyst> | It's inevitable though, I'm going to be one of those Lisp people |
| 14:13 | < catalyst> | I think I already am |
| 14:13 | <@TheWatcher> | It's okay, it could be worse. |
| 14:14 | <@TheWatcher> | You could be doign web development |
| 14:14 | < catalyst> | Everything is worse, by definition >.> |
| 14:14 | < catalyst> | You wait til I start deploying my stuff using clojurescript |
| 14:15 | < catalyst> | On the plus side, it seems I'm recovered enough from extreme anxiety/depression to actually develop significant things in my spare time for the first time since I was oh, 16? |
| 14:16 | <@TheWatcher> | :D Awesome |
| 14:16 | < catalyst> | you have *no* idea :D |
| 14:22 | <@TheWatcher> | Probably not, but I'm still happy for you! |
| 14:23 | | * catalyst celebrates by finally going out to buy lunch |
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| 21:53 | <@abudhabi> | What's the proper procedure when someone sends you a PGP encrypted message, but you've long lost the damn private key? |
| 21:55 | <@abudhabi> | This seems like something that happens a lot to me - losing the keys. |
| 22:10 | <@abudhabi> | Should I even care that this happens often? I mean, I can just generate a new key and send that with a retransmit request. |
| 22:11 | <@Tamber> | Then it's down to whether or not they trust that it's actually you that's made that retransmit request. |
| 22:11 | <@Tamber> | Rather than, perhaps, someone intercepting and pretending to be you. |
| 22:11 | <&McMartin> | Because that happens all the time |
| 22:21 | | ion_ is now known as ion |
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| 22:28 | <@Tamber> | McM: Whether or not it happens that often is another matter entirely. :p |
| 22:28 | <&[R]> | How the frick are you losing your PGP keys? |
| 22:29 | <&McMartin> | Not using them for ten years and four new computer installs, most likely |
| 22:32 | <@abudhabi> | ^ This. |
| 22:32 | <@abudhabi> | I interact with people who are paranoid to actually use that stuff only infrequently, and even those people are not paranoid to use it all the time. |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | I think I last used PGP in the manner described here (where sender and recipient have their own keys that they transmit via samizdat and use to sign and encrypt messages in email) some time in the 20th Century. |
| 22:37 | <@abudhabi> | I think the major issue is that the whole structure of this thing is designed for use by unspecified aliens, not human beings. I mean, humans apparently have great difficulty understanding enough of how it works to actually use it properly. |
| 22:37 | <&[R]> | You're supposed to send everything encrypted :/ |
| 22:38 | <@abudhabi> | I had to walk myself through how this stuff works just now to figure out, again, what to do to make things start working again. |
| 22:38 | <&[R]> | It was pretty transparent when I actually had someone to send encrypted messages to. Just took like 5 minutes of setup. |
| 22:39 | <&McMartin> | R: I hate to tell you this, but you're on IRC right now |
| 22:39 | <&[R]> | Then again, I'm using GPG, so maybe that's different? |
| 22:39 | <&McMartin> | No, GPG is a clone of PGP |
| 22:39 | <&[R]> | I meant in usability |
| 22:39 | <&McMartin> | Exact clone. If GPG is more usable, it's because third-party developers integrate it. |
| 22:40 | <@abudhabi> | Thanks to TheWatcher, I have a file called PGP.txt in my dropbox, in a folder called 'magical rituals', that contains simple instructions on how to use PGP. |
| 22:40 | <&[R]> | McMartin: I mean, if you infrequently send encrpyted messages, an attacker knows what messages to focus on. If you send as many messages as possible, then they spend effort on non-valuable messages. |
| 22:40 | <@abudhabi> | Otherwise I'd have lost an hour or two figuring this shit out myself. |
| 22:40 | <@abudhabi> | For the Nth time. |
| 22:40 | <&McMartin> | R: So, like |
| 22:41 | <&McMartin> | It's the :/ that I'm having trouble reading here |
| 22:41 | <@ion> | Tangent from IRC/encryption |
| 22:41 | <@ion> | is there any real point to connecting to IRC over SSL? |
| 22:41 | <&[R]> | Kind of a half-frown? |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | No, no. I know what the emoticon is |
| 22:42 | <@Tamber> | ion: Other than your nickserv, etc. passwords? |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | But as far as I can tell you are also a human being using the Internet |
| 22:42 | <&[R]> | ion: yes. ircops should be using SSL. If you authenticate, you probably should use SSL. |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | You know full well that security in its model is basically impossible to use in a manner recognizable as "the Internet" |
| 22:43 | <@ion> | I guess those are worthwhile points for it |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | abudhabi's comment re: "unspecified aliens" is about right. |
| 22:44 | <&[R]> | Eitherway, my point was more "maybe your client's PGP/GPG integration is at fault here?" |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | IIRC, everything that isn't mutt is disastrous at it |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | But sure, let's blame the entire world for that~ |
| 22:44 | <&[R]> | That explains my success. |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | Now to make sure you can't be trivially otherwise compromised, don't write or read the emails on systems connected to the Internet and don't transmit the information to that machine with USB devices |
| 22:45 | <&[R]> | mutt does have one extremely annoying case though, when you make it always send encrypted, but try to send to someone who you don't have a key for, you get locked in an infinite loop. |
| 22:45 | <&[R]> | infinitite ui loop* |
| 22:47 | <@abudhabi> | [R]: I am guessing, but I think my paranoid friend doesn't want his message read by anyone other than me. This includes not having it read by Google, and I use Google's webmail. |
| 22:48 | <&[R]> | Right, which is the use-case. |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | Google's about the only one I'd consider it safe from in that case |
| 22:49 | <@JustBob> | Someday, I might connect using SSL. |
| 22:49 | <@JustBob> | But today is not that day. |
| 22:50 | <@Tamber> | To localhost is cheating! |
| 22:50 | <@abudhabi> | Ionno. I heard that someone did a test of whether Google's algoriths use stuff from your mailbox. He set up some never-linked-to website directories and stuff, then sent links in locked archive attachments. And then detected google spiders crawling the website subdirs. |
| 22:51 | <@JustBob> | Besides, the concept of cryptography amuses me, because there's always rubber hose cryptanalysis. |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | Any other attacker dedicated or interested enough in attacking *you* will attempt malware infiltration which will either get your private keys outright and keylog the passphrase or screenscrepe the result |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | JustBob: Assumes physical access to the sender or recipient~ |
| 22:51 | <@JustBob> | Anyone sufficiently dedicated can gain physical access. |
| 22:52 | <&[R]> | Sure. But they'd only have to do that if your messages were actually encrypted. |
| 22:52 | <@JustBob> | For that matter, we're trained to just give up our PINs and physical keys the moment we're interrogated. |
| 22:53 | <@abudhabi> | We're sometimes legally required to, yes. |
| 22:53 | <@abudhabi> | Oh, wait, what meaning of 'interrogate' do you have in mind? |
| 22:53 | <@JustBob> | The thing with cryptography, as far as I can tell, is that it's either tediously inconvenient to use, or sufficiently weak to pose no real challenge to any major entity with access to computational resources. |
| 22:53 | <@JustBob> | So, as with every security system, the flaw is in the user. |
| 22:54 | <@JustBob> | abudhabi - Oh, pretty much any physical coercion. |
| 22:54 | <@abudhabi> | Oh, OK. |
| 22:54 | <&McMartin> | "Something happened and you need to press OK to get on with things" |
| 22:55 | <@abudhabi> | Heh. |
| 22:55 | <&McMartin> | You can blame the user, but at some point you have to admit your initial spec was wrong~ |
| 22:55 | <@abudhabi> | Yeah, I was unsure whether it was "please input PIN" or "men in blue require the password to your laptop". |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | JustBob: Schemas that are not the PGP model are actually quite a bit more reliable in this vein |
| 22:56 | <@abudhabi> | McMartin: Much of the tedious inconvenience appears to stem from *all the communicating parties needing to use it properly*. |
| 22:56 | <@JustBob> | McM - There's a balance between ease of use and user frustration that forces workarounds. |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:56 | <@JustBob> | i.e. I often just call people and talk about stuff and/or fax it instead of using encrypted email because it takes too damned long to encrypt, sign, and send. |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | Gonna relink https://www.usenix.org/conference/enigma2016/conference-program/presentation/smi th again |
| 22:57 | <@abudhabi> | Which is exponentially more difficult than just having one guy using it properly be safe on his end, and the rest doing it wrongly being unsafe just on their ends. |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | Because it's still great, and because it has The Best Slide. |
| 22:58 | <@abudhabi> | Hoyvin-Glayvin! |
| 22:58 | <&McMartin> | Launch photon torpedoes! |
| 22:58 | <@JustBob> | Also, password requirements are just as tedious. |
| 22:58 | | * abudhabi goes to sleep. |
| 22:58 | <@JustBob> | For example, I have a system that requires lowercase, uppercase, numbers, and special characters. |
| 22:59 | <@JustBob> | And it must be 16 to 32 digits long. |
| 22:59 | <@abudhabi> | That is the WORST. |
| 22:59 | <@JustBob> | Now, what possible password am I going to use and remember? |
| 22:59 | <@JustBob> | Oh, right. qqqq1111!!!!QQQQ |
| 22:59 | <@Tamber> | The one written down? |
| 22:59 | <&McMartin> | JustBobIsAnAwesomeDude!!!1234 |
| 22:59 | <@JustBob> | And for the next iteration, wwww2222@@@@WWWW. |
| 22:59 | <@JustBob> | Soforth and so on, because 52345kjsg@^@^#GFFgew758sdfhi89%&#SDGSDFG4i56 is not a memorizable password. |
| 22:59 | <&McMartin> | Having the password on a post-it note on the machine in question is more secure than you'd think~ |
| 23:00 | <@JustBob> | They actually do security sweeps for that. :p |
| 23:00 | <@abudhabi> | Sometimes, I think the only sensible password system nowadays is some kind of physical notepad you carry around. And if you lose it, you simply get a new one and reset all your passwords. |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | Biometric two-factor |
| 23:00 | <@abudhabi> | Still needs a password. |
| 23:00 | <@ion> | abudhabi: Combine that with not recycling passwords accross accounts and you're basically set |
| 23:00 | <@JustBob> | Or a PIN. I can tolerate a PIN. |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | It's less important that it be a *good* password |
| 23:01 | <@JustBob> | I use a token and a PIN, personally. |
| 23:01 | <@abudhabi> | ion: If you recycled passwords, you don't need the notepad! |
| 23:01 | <@JustBob> | Well, for work. Personally, I just use the standard password fuckthispassword |
| 23:01 | <@ion> | most of hte passwords I have had to have written down are for things that don't deeply matter and are signed into once in a blue moon |
| 23:01 | <@JustBob> | I used to have an equation memorized that would generate passwords. So as long as I remembered what I keyed each password with, I could regenerate it. |
| 23:01 | <@JustBob> | Then I realized how asinine that was. :p |
| 23:02 | <@ion> | though for added fun I have a really lame cypher applied to the written text just to mess with anybody not me who tries |
| 23:11 | | * [R] should start keeping a gpg'd txt file of passwords again. |
| 23:12 | <&[R]> | It's nice for inclusion in a will. Just provide the key and passphrase to decrypt, and your loved ones can deal with all your accounts properly. |
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| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | [R]: That's a place where GPG *does* exceed PGP. GPG has a mode where you can skip the entire public-key part and just have a symmetrically-encrypted single file, passphrase-protected. |
| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | No external key is required. |
| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | (post-90s versions of PGP might do that too, I dunno) |
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| 23:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | The answer to both of these is just "use keepass" |
| --- Log closed Sun Jul 31 00:00:25 2016 |