| --- Log opened Fri Jul 29 00:00:53 2016 |
| 00:01 | | himi [sjjf@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 00:02 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 00:45 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:54 | | Alek [Alek@Nightstar-9qtiqv.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 01:13 | | Alek [Alek@Nightstar-9qtiqv.il.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 01:13 | | mode/#code [+o Alek] by ChanServ |
| 01:50 | | catadroid` [catadroid@Nightstar-afa.159.132.82.IP] has joined #code |
| 01:53 | | catadroid [catadroid@Nightstar-hbl6ti.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 02:22 | <&[R]> | Oh gods what. |
| 02:22 | <&[R]> | "Considering LDAP or AD? Directory as a Service." |
| 02:22 | <&[R]> | No. |
| 02:33 | <~Vornicus> | D: |
| 02:34 | <&[R]> | Samecompany offers RADIUS aaS too |
| 03:53 | <@Azash> | Oh jesus |
| 03:55 | <&McMartin> | Augh, RADIUS |
| 04:49 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 04:52 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 04:52 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 04:56 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 05:18 | < catadroid`> | Buzzword aaS |
| 05:21 | <~Vornicus> | that's just the unitarian jihad backend |
| 06:19 | | himi [sjjf@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 06:30 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 06:31 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 06:31 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 06:38 | | himi [sjjf@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 06:38 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 06:42 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 06:42 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 06:44 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 07:25 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 07:25 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 07:25 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 07:27 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 07:29 | | Vornicus [Vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 07:30 | | catadroid` [catadroid@Nightstar-afa.159.132.82.IP] has quit [[NS] Quit: Bye] |
| 07:50 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-nhhr58.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] |
| 08:10 | | Kindamoody [Kindamoody@Nightstar-0lgkcs.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 08:27 | | Kindamoody|autojoin [Kindamoody@Nightstar-smhueo.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #code |
| 08:27 | | mode/#code [+o Kindamoody|autojoin] by ChanServ |
| 08:27 | | Kindamoody|autojoin is now known as Kindamoody |
| 08:32 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 08:32 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 08:35 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 08:50 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 09:10 | | catadroid [catadroid@Nightstar-ejv.jtr.132.82.IP] has joined #code |
| 09:10 | < catadroid> | Pi: I've not written a single line of Haskell since you explained IO actions and I'm already thinking about them everywhere |
| 09:14 | < catadroid> | In fact, it makes do much sense that the output of evaluating your program be a sequence of IO actions. That can then be mapped to physical hardware |
| 09:14 | < catadroid> | You could write tests that verify the actions, to some degree, independent of executing them. |
| 09:33 | < catadroid> | Object orientation is such a single threaded abstraction. |
| 09:36 | <@Pi> | catadroid: Yup! |
| 09:39 | <@Pi> | catadroid: It gets even better once you start doing things like modeling with mini-DSLs and writing interpreters that map them to IO action actions or to other things. |
| 09:39 | <@Pi> | s/action // |
| 10:25 | < catadroid> | So, macros then |
| 10:25 | < catadroid> | Re-re factor, when the crowd says bo SELECT FROM |
| 10:42 | <@Pi> | catadroid: I still wouldn't say macros. |
| 10:43 | <@Pi> | Just standard FP. |
| 10:43 | <@Pi> | In this case it's more about ADTs |
| 10:43 | <@Pi> | which don't really have a strong tradition in lisps |
| 10:44 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 10:48 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 10:48 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 10:50 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 10:50 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 10:53 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 11:04 | < catadroid> | My expectation with Haskell is that I will find it really neat up until the point I wish it were homoiconic |
| 11:56 | < catadroid> | I suppose all macros really let you do is partially evaluate |
| 11:57 | < catadroid> | I guess what I really want is a lisp with strict separation of evaluation and execution |
| 12:05 | <@TheWatcher> | Write one!~ |
| 12:08 | <@Pi> | catadroid: It is homoiconic with TH. |
| 12:08 | <@Pi> | The syntax is just a Haskell ADT. |
| 12:09 | <@Pi> | catadroid: Macros do more than just partially evaluate, though; they can do arbitrary syntactical transformations. |
| 12:09 | <@Pi> | Delayed evaluation is just one trivial subset of macros. |
| 12:09 | <@Pi> | (And one that's unnecessary in Haskell, because of non-strict evaluation) |
| 12:11 | <@Pi> | catadroid: You can actually do that in existing Lisp. |
| 12:11 | <@Pi> | catadroid: You can just implement IO actions, and stick to the pure subset of the language. |
| 12:12 | <@Pi> | And write an interpreter for the IO actions. |
| 12:12 | <@Pi> | (It won't be nearly as nice as in Haskell though. :) |
| 12:12 | <@Pi> | catadroid: One of the amazing things you learn when actually doing something is how much the type system actually does for you. |
| 12:12 | <@Pi> | It's not just some optional checker; it's active scaffolding that guides your program. |
| 12:13 | <@Pi> | It's like an amplifier or powered armour for your brain: I can write things in Haskell that I'm way too dumb to write in other languages, because the type system does so many things for me. |
| 12:14 | <@Pi> | It often feels like programs write themselves, because you start with some types, and the type inference just guides your implementation in the correct direction without you actually having to think. |
| 12:14 | <@Pi> | Once you go from that to an untyped language, it's like suddenly having all that mental augmentation removed, and doing simpler tasks suddenly become a lot more taxing. |
| 12:14 | <@Pi> | Because now your own brain has to do all the manual heavy lifting. |
| 12:15 | <@Pi> | When a computer could be doing it. |
| 12:31 | < catadroid> | I'm always very wary of systems that claim to intuit things implicitly |
| 12:31 | < catadroid> | Because often I investigate what they've inferred and it's incorrect |
| 12:32 | < catadroid> | well, it followed the rules correctly, but it becomes hard to reason about the second and third order parts |
| 12:32 | < catadroid> | (I'm actually very open minded wrt to Haskell, but I am always skeptical) |
| 12:33 | < catadroid> | (And, like I said, I can't form an opinion on that yet having not grokked haskell types and kinds and such yet) |
| 12:34 | | * TheWatcher has massive problems working with FL - aside from elisp, oddly - as it just utterly fucks with his headbones |
| 12:35 | <@TheWatcher> | *FP |
| 12:36 | <@TheWatcher> | (I can type) |
| 12:38 | <@TheWatcher> | For some reason, my mindmeats seem to have horrible problems wrapping themselves around most things functional, while imperative is just second nature. |
| 12:46 | < catadroid> | Interesting |
| 12:47 | < catadroid> | I would be interested in seeing whether I could help with that |
| 12:47 | < catadroid> | The trick I've been finding with functional programming is that it helps me get closer to decomposing things in sequential steps |
| 12:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah. I've never understood it. I try again from time to time, and while I can manage smaller things okay, when I set out to write anything substantial it just falls apart. |
| 12:49 | < catadroid> | I find destructive updates harder to reason about now |
| 12:53 | < catadroid> | I guess the issue I've always had with functional oriented languages is that they often don't exist in an environment with enough capabilities for me to write applications easily |
| 12:53 | < catadroid> | clojure being the one exception thus far |
| 12:53 | < catadroid> | (that I've attempted to use) |
| 12:57 | <@Pi> | TheWatcher: Next time you try, let me know. |
| 12:57 | <@Pi> | I'm very much about intuition when it comes to programming and FP, and I always try to teach intuition rather than formal methods or abstract reasoning. |
| 13:00 | < catadroid> | Haskell still feels like it exists in a vacuum to me |
| 13:00 | < catadroid> | But I've not tried joining the cabal yet |
| 13:06 | < Pink> | http://monadsofmadness.tumblr.com/ |
| 13:07 | <@TheWatcher> | .... ahahah, that's awesome |
| 13:18 | <@Pi> | catadroid: The way to get over that feeling is just to do stuff in it. |
| 13:18 | <@Pi> | It's really not much different to any other language you might tackle stuff in. :) |
| 13:18 | <@Pi> | Just have to get over the initial hump, like any other language. |
| 13:29 | < catadroid> | I can love writing code in smalltalk all I want, but I doubt it will ever be as easy to bind it to DX12 as C++ |
| 14:23 | < catadroid> | I get the feeling that what I'm going to end up doing is learning Haskell concepts and applying them to clojure, at this rate |
| 14:25 | <@Pi> | S'ok. You can do (or half-do) Haskell in any language. :) |
| 14:50 | | catadroid` [catadroid@Nightstar-bsgjk9.dab.02.net] has joined #code |
| 14:52 | | catadroid [catadroid@Nightstar-ejv.jtr.132.82.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 15:44 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-nhhr58.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code |
| 15:45 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| 15:55 | | catadroid` is now known as catadroid |
| 16:21 | | Vornicus [Vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 16:21 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 16:23 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-bt5k4h.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #code |
| 18:14 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 18:14 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 18:14 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 18:18 | <@celticminstrel> | Just to be sure, "[\\\\\|\\/]" reduces to a character class containing both slashes and vertical bar, right? |
| 18:18 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 18:18 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 18:19 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 18:20 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 18:21 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 18:21 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 18:23 | <@celticminstrel> | Never mind, got an answer elsewhere. |
| 18:25 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 18:26 | < catalyst> | I'm pretty sure "[\\\\\|\\/]" reduces to the summoning of an elder god |
| 18:27 | <@celticminstrel> | What? |
| 18:33 | < Pink> | just don't type haskell three times |
| 18:36 | <@Azash> | catalyst: Looks like a bookshelf |
| 18:36 | <@celticminstrel> | What. XD |
| 18:48 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 18:48 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 18:49 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 18:50 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 18:50 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 18:53 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 18:56 | | * McMartin reads backscroll. "Haskell's FFI is pretty good, but the lazy evaluation stuff can be a bit of a surprise." |
| 18:56 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 18:56 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 18:56 | <&McMartin> | It's always a little unfortunate for the runtime to decide halfway through rendering the frame that it should have spent the past 13 milliseconds doing the physics. >_> |
| 18:57 | <&McMartin> | (That was admittedly a game-of-life simulation where it's all massively parallel~) |
| 19:00 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 19:00 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 19:01 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:05 | | macdjord|slep [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 19:05 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord|slep] by ChanServ |
| 19:08 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:17 | | macdjord|slep [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:32 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 19:32 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 19:41 | | Kindamoody|afk [Kindamoody@Nightstar-smhueo.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:41 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:53 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 19:53 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 19:59 | | * gnolam eyes AsciiDoc. |
| 19:59 | <@gnolam> | Python 2? Really? |
| 19:59 | | * gnolam sighs, checks out Markdown instead. |
| 20:22 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 20:25 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 20:25 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 20:29 | <&McMartin> | I think of Markdown as being the coders' wiki |
| 20:29 | <&McMartin> | For things that aren't wiki |
| 20:42 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 20:42 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 20:45 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 20:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm generally quite happy with markdown, in large part because even if you don't have ready access to the output it still results in readable and pleasantly formatted plaintext. |
| 20:46 | <&McMartin> | ++ |
| 20:46 | <&McMartin> | That also said, I also like DocBook for producing results |
| 20:47 | <&McMartin> | It's what I used to write Programming with Ophis. The HTML results are ugly but the PDF/LaTeX results are quite nice. |
| 20:57 | <~Vornicus> | I have an extension for chrome that renders markdown |
| 20:59 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 21:03 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 21:03 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 21:18 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 21:19 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 21:19 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 21:20 | | catadroid` [catadroid@Nightstar-k4rng1.dab.02.net] has joined #code |
| 21:20 | | catadroid` [catadroid@Nightstar-k4rng1.dab.02.net] has quit [The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.] |
| 21:23 | | catadroid [catadroid@Nightstar-bsgjk9.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 21:23 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 21:24 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 21:24 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 21:25 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 21:26 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 21:26 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 21:30 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 21:33 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 21:33 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 21:39 | | Kindamoody|autojoin [Kindamoody@Nightstar-h3906g.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #code |
| 21:39 | | mode/#code [+o Kindamoody|autojoin] by ChanServ |
| 21:39 | | Kindamoody|autojoin is now known as Kindamoody |
| 21:46 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-t1tbf0.cust.bahnhof.se] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 21:51 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-t1tbf0.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #code |
| 21:51 | | mode/#code [+o gnolam] by ChanServ |
| 22:27 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 22:27 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 22:27 | | mode/#code [+o macdjord] by ChanServ |
| 22:41 | | Kindamoody [Kindamoody@Nightstar-h3906g.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:03 | <&McMartin> | http://sdtimes.com/sd-times-blog-lesser-known-forms-agile/ |
| 23:32 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-r9vt2h.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:40 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| --- Log closed Sat Jul 30 00:00:09 2016 |