| --- Log opened Sat Jun 11 00:00:20 2016 |
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| 06:16 | | * McMartin finishes the inheritance section of https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/retro/polymorph_0.html |
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| 07:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Fun. |
| 07:26 | | * celticminstrel kinda wants to see the polymorphism section though. |
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| 07:28 | <&McMartin> | Workin' on it! |
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| 10:33 | <@ErikMesoy> | http://imgur.com/pHManzx What is likely wrong with my second monitor, that it looks like this? Internal state seems to be working fine, as reported by dragging a window from main onto secondary and then PrintScreen grabs both when the screenshot-of-both is viewed zoomed-out on main. |
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| 15:48 | <@abudhabi> | Dammit. Anyone know about MX records* |
| 15:48 | <@abudhabi> | ? |
| 15:48 | <@abudhabi> | I'm trying to reset them to what they were before we used Office 365 stuff. |
| 15:49 | <@abudhabi> | I think I've determined what the mail server URL is, at least, but now it's rejecting email on grounds of lacking authentication. |
| 15:51 | <@abudhabi> | 530 5.7.1 Authentication required (in reply to MAIL FROM command) |
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| 15:59 | <@abudhabi> | Wait, wut? |
| 16:00 | <@abudhabi> | I've verified that the mail server itself works, through the webmail client it includes. It sends, I receive on my usual gmail account. |
| 16:01 | <@abudhabi> | When I try to send from a backup email account to the same email address, it fails with authentication required. |
| 16:01 | <@abudhabi> | When I send from my gmail address, using the email as an alias, which I had set up since forever, it goes through correctly. |
| 16:02 | <@abudhabi> | Or maybe not. |
| 16:02 | <@abudhabi> | Right, it doesn't work. |
| 16:03 | <@abudhabi> | I wish I knew what the flip it is wrong. |
| 16:03 | <@abudhabi> | I wish the hosting company actually gave a listing of correct DNS records, in case you lose them. |
| 16:07 | <&jerith> | abudhabi: That doesn't sound like DNS issues. |
| 16:07 | <&jerith> | It sounds like auth issues. |
| 16:08 | <@abudhabi> | What do I do with that, then? |
| 16:08 | <@abudhabi> | I'd very much like to get this shit fixed. |
| 16:09 | <@abudhabi> | What kind of records do I need to set on my DNS so that mail to whatever@domain.com actually gets to where it's supposed to? |
| 16:09 | <@abudhabi> | What kind of other config do I need to do? |
| 16:09 | <&jerith> | You need an MX record pointing to your mailserver. |
| 16:10 | <&jerith> | Other config depends on the mailserver. |
| 16:10 | <&jerith> | Are you hosting it yourself? |
| 16:10 | <@abudhabi> | Right, OK, how do I verify that the mailserver I have is the mailserver I want? |
| 16:10 | <@abudhabi> | No. |
| 16:11 | <@abudhabi> | I *think* I've got the right one, which I lifted from earlier communication with the hosting company. |
| 16:11 | <@abudhabi> | But I'm not 100% sure. |
| 16:11 | <@abudhabi> | jerith: How should that MX record look like? |
| 16:12 | <~Vornicus> | Definitely. Outlook iirc uses an older auth system. |
| 16:12 | <&jerith> | abudhabi: `dig MX gmail.com` is a reasonable example. |
| 16:13 | <&jerith> | Although you'll probably only want one or two records. |
| 16:13 | <&jerith> | (One, unless there's a backup mailserver.) |
| 16:13 | <&jerith> | Do you know any other domains using the same mail provider? |
| 16:14 | <@abudhabi> | The DNS record form has four entries: Name, TTL, Type and Value. What should I put in each? |
| 16:14 | <@abudhabi> | I have two guesses, but both of them seem to resolve to the same place. |
| 16:15 | <@abudhabi> | No, I'm afraid I don't. Any way to find out? |
| 16:15 | <&jerith> | "name" is the domain. |
| 16:15 | <~Vornicus> | if your guesses resolve to the same place then it might be the right place and it shouldn't really matter beyond that |
| 16:16 | <@abudhabi> | Should I put blank in the name? Because if I put the domain name, it's duplicated. Should I put an @ in there somewhere? |
| 16:16 | <&jerith> | "TTL" is the cache time in seconds. While you're playing you probably want that short (maybe 60). |
| 16:16 | <&jerith> | The name must end in ".", because DNS. |
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| 16:17 | <&jerith> | So if your email address is "ad@example.com", you want "example.com." |
| 16:17 | <&jerith> | "type" is "MX". |
| 16:18 | <&jerith> | "value" is the thing you want to resolve to, so the mailserver's address. |
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| 16:19 | <@abudhabi> | OK, so when I save it, it says: Name=domain.com, TTL=60, Type=MX, Value=10 mail.domain.com |
| 16:19 | <&jerith> | That seems reasonable. |
| 16:19 | <&jerith> | Now `dig MX domain.com` to check that you've actually seeing that from the outside. |
| 16:19 | <@abudhabi> | Adding period in the name field yields "..domain.com" and adding a trailing period in the value is not allowed, apparently. |
| 16:20 | <&jerith> | (If you PM me the domain I can confirm from here.) |
| 16:20 | <&jerith> | The period needs to be trailing. If it won't let you add one, and the domain is the same as the zone root, leave it empty. |
| 16:23 | <&jerith> | Does the mail.domain.com record point to whatever it pointed to previously? |
| 16:25 | <&jerith> | If you're getting an auth failure there must be some kind of SMTP server running there. |
| 16:26 | <@abudhabi> | Well, it goes to the webmail in the browser, anyway. |
| 16:27 | <&jerith> | That means it's probably the right IP. |
| 16:28 | <@abudhabi> | New error. |
| 16:29 | <@abudhabi> | sorry, that domain isn't in my list of allowed rcpthosts (#5.7.1) (in reply to RCPT TO command) |
| 16:29 | <@abudhabi> | And now it has started to silently ignore new mail. |
| 16:30 | <&jerith> | Does the hosting provider have any kind of documentation for their mail service? |
| 16:30 | <@abudhabi> | They sent some info in a big email, where I've lifted the mail URL from. |
| 16:30 | <@abudhabi> | They also have a FAQ. |
| 16:30 | <@abudhabi> | But it doesn't seem to mention this particular issue. |
| 16:31 | <@abudhabi> | There's no list of records that guarantee proper functioning. |
| 16:31 | <~Vornicus> | Why are you setting up an mx anyway |
| 16:31 | <~Vornicus> | can't you just |
| 16:32 | <~Vornicus> | I mean, your mail client shouldn't need one set up, you'd just hook it in with the imap/smtp thingies in the mail client |
| 16:32 | <@abudhabi> | Vornicus: I don't know why, I just want this shit to work. This used to have MX and lots of other records that routed mail and shit to Office 365, but now we're getting rid of Office 365, so I need it to start working the way it worked at the start, with the hosting company's mail server used, not Microsoft's. |
| 16:33 | <~Vornicus> | or rather - the mx should already exist, otherwise mail wouldn't send |
| 16:33 | <~Vornicus> | like, you wouldn't be able to receive mail |
| 16:33 | <@abudhabi> | 1. I am not able to receive email to my @domain.com adresses. |
| 16:33 | <@abudhabi> | 2. I am able to send email from @domain.com addresses. |
| 16:33 | <&jerith> | Vornicus: The mail used to go to the hosting provider's servers, then it was changed to go to Office 365 instead. |
| 16:34 | <&jerith> | Now it needs to be changed back. |
| 16:34 | <&jerith> | abudhabi: It looks like the hosting provider doesn't think it should be accepting mail for your domain. |
| 16:35 | <&jerith> | You probably need to tinker with whatever part of their configuration setup deals with that. |
| 16:39 | <@abudhabi> | Ridiculous. |
| 16:39 | <&jerith> | That is an accurate summation of how email works. |
| 16:41 | <@abudhabi> | Are MX records always required? |
| 16:42 | <&jerith> | Yes. That's how the sender knows where the mailserver for a domain lives. |
| 16:44 | <@abudhabi> | Alright. The A record, I think, specifies the mail.domain.com server IP, and the MX record is pointed at the URL there. |
| 16:44 | <@abudhabi> | I haven't actually touched the A record, so it's probably good. |
| 16:45 | <&jerith> | MX records have always been a bit of a special case. |
| 16:46 | <&jerith> | Most things use A records, which means all services on a particular domain have to be reachable on the same IP. |
| 16:47 | <@abudhabi> | Why did I stop getting undelivered mail errors? |
| 16:47 | <&jerith> | (In most cases, that means they have to run on the same machine or have some fancy network trickery.) |
| 16:47 | <&jerith> | abudhabi: Probably anti-spam stuff. |
| 16:47 | <&jerith> | The mailserver might just be ignoring you for a bit. |
| 16:48 | <@abudhabi> | Crap. How the fuck am I supposed to test this shit unless I am able to get a proper response? |
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| 16:54 | <@abudhabi> | OK, OK, it has started to partially work. |
| 16:54 | <@abudhabi> | I'm able to send email to the proper mailboxes, but forwards fail. |
| 16:54 | <@abudhabi> | Fail silently, that is. |
| 16:56 | <@abudhabi> | OK, it works now. |
| 17:03 | <@abudhabi> | jerith: Thanks loads. |
| 17:04 | <&jerith> | Glad I could help. :-) |
| 17:04 | <@abudhabi> | I hate email. |
| 17:05 | <@gnolam> | Email hates the living. |
| 17:06 | <&jerith> | abudhabi: So does everyone who knows it well enough to work with it. |
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| 19:10 | | crystalclaw|AFK is now known as crystalclaw |
| 19:26 | <@ErikMesoy> | Python: I have a Superclass which I am going to create many subclasses of. Superclass is defined with one "name"ish placeholder attribute, which subclasses should override. I think I want superclass to also have a not-so-placeholder-attribute, "I am a $MYNAME", which subclasses can inherit and use correctly if/when they have overridden the placeholder attribute. |
| 19:27 | <@ErikMesoy> | How do I format the reference to $MYNAME in Superclass correctly so that subclasses will inherit it the way I want? (Is this an XY problem?) |
| 19:27 | <&jerith> | Philosophical point: Composition is generally better than inheritance. |
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| 19:30 | <@ErikMesoy> | I /think/ that because I intend to have many subclasses here, composition will involve writing redundant super() (or other references) so much that I want to inherit for this particular usage pattern. Have I misunderstood composition? |
| 19:30 | <&jerith> | Something like https://gist.github.com/jerith/5cbf29e82abe3831df36417798ab074f ? |
| 19:31 | <@ErikMesoy> | Oh, ok, you're putting them in methods instead of attributes, allowing you to talk about self. I totally missed that. thanks! |
| 19:31 | <&jerith> | ErikMesoy: Composition involves not having subclasses at all, but composing separate objects with different behaviours. |
| 19:32 | <&jerith> | Oh, if you want attribute things you can use properties. |
| 19:33 | <@ErikMesoy> | Now I'm just going to have to remember () in the appropriate places so I get function returns and not functions themselves. |
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| 19:35 | <&jerith> | Reload that gist, I've updated it. |
| 19:35 | <@ErikMesoy> | jerith: Instead of sub-classes of a widely shared parent class, they'd still be sibling-classes with a widely shared common class and I'd be saying common.stuff() instead of super() with composition as you have explained it. I think. |
| 19:36 | <&jerith> | It's hard to think of a trivial example. |
| 19:36 | | * pjdelport dips in. |
| 19:37 | <&jerith> | How are your subclasses going to be different from each other? |
| 19:37 | | crystalclaw is now known as crystalclaw|AFK |
| 19:37 | <@pjdelport> | I prefer to think of inheritance is a type of composition. |
| 19:37 | <&jerith> | Also, pjdelport is better at explaining this stuff than I am. |
| 19:37 | <@pjdelport> | But I probably shouldn't get into that philosophy now :) |
| 19:37 | <@ErikMesoy> | They're going to be monsters for Babby's First RPG and they're supposed to inherit shared monster functions like "take damage" and "track my hit points". |
| 19:38 | <&jerith> | Ah. |
| 19:38 | <@ErikMesoy> | Wondering how to "inherit shared attributes", if not exactly that, like each one having a name was how I got into this line of inquiry. |
| 19:39 | <@pjdelport> | ErikMesoy: One thing to keep in mind with Python is that methods and attributes have a lot more in common than not, compared to other languages. |
| 19:39 | <@pjdelport> | In fact, methods are literally just a particular kind of attribute. (Method binding is implemented via the descriptor protocol.) |
| 19:40 | <@pjdelport> | So unlike many other OO languages, you can think about class attribute inheritance very much like method inheritance, and use them in the same way as far as things like super() is concerned, and so on. |
| 19:40 | <&jerith> | For a composition-based approach to that, I'd go with a Monster class that delegates a bunch of stuff to a MonsterBehaviour and a MonsterAttributes and whatever else you need. |
| 19:40 | <@pjdelport> | There's also a distinction between class attributes and instance attributes, which is important, and not something many other OO languages have. |
| 19:40 | <@ErikMesoy> | pjdelport: Thanks for the good intent, but my "other languages" reference class is kinda fucked here |
| 19:41 | <&jerith> | What other languages are you familiar with? |
| 19:41 | <@pjdelport> | ErikMesoy: From the sound of it, class attributes would be perfect for many kinds of monster attributes, with defaulting. |
| 19:42 | <@pjdelport> | Anything that's common to an entire monster type, you can make class attribute; things like base movement speed/hitpoints/damage, or whatever. |
| 19:42 | <@pjdelport> | (make a class attribute, even) |
| 19:42 | <@ErikMesoy> | jerith: at present? the most fresh in my head are various DSLs that I had to pick up for the job. and the first programming language I started reading was Lisp. |
| 19:42 | <@pjdelport> | You can access those directly on the class (like MyMonster.speed), or on instances (m.speed) |
| 19:52 | <@ErikMesoy> | Hmmm. |
| 19:53 | <@pjdelport> | ErikMesoy: Your main concern at this point is probably how you want to approach things like powerups and modifiers. |
| 19:54 | <@ErikMesoy> | pjdelport: I'll handle that when I get to it. In the meantime, please explain this about class attributes some more. http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/708 |
| 19:55 | <@pjdelport> | ErikMesoy: Class attributes are literally just attributes set on the class object itself. |
| 19:55 | <&jerith> | ErikMesoy: The assignment to victory_string is evaluated at class definition time. |
| 19:55 | <@ErikMesoy> | jerith: I realize this. |
| 19:56 | <@ErikMesoy> | And this is why "oh, methods" fixed everything. |
| 19:56 | <&jerith> | Yes. |
| 19:56 | <@ErikMesoy> | Methods evaluate on class, after inheritance. |
| 19:56 | <@ErikMesoy> | *on call |
| 19:56 | <@pjdelport> | To simplify a teeny bit (ignoring descriptor protocol for now), when you try to access an attribute on a class or instance, Python will first look on the instance, then the class and its MRO. |
| 19:57 | <&jerith> | What pjdelport was saying is that you can use Monster.name or Monster().name and get the same thing. |
| 19:57 | <@pjdelport> | The first one it finds gets used. So subclasses can override class attributes set on their base classes, and instances can override attributes set on their class. |
| 19:58 | <@pjdelport> | And yeah, everything in the body of a class block gets evaluated at class definition time, so the above is equivalent to hardcoding victory_string = "you defeated the placeholder" |
| 19:58 | <&jerith> | ErikMesoy: Anyway, your problem is solved by properties, which I demonstrated in my edited gist. :-) |
| 19:58 | <@ErikMesoy> | And my original question was if there existed any sort of reference to "name" or "monster.name" or the like that would get inherited. |
| 19:59 | <@pjdelport> | If you wanted the attribute to be dynamically computed, you can do that with a property: |
| 19:59 | <@pjdelport> | victory_string = property(lambda self: "you defeated the " + self.name) |
| 19:59 | <@ErikMesoy> | "Use methods" has solved it. |
| 19:59 | <@pjdelport> | (or the equivalent @property + def syntax) |
| 20:01 | <@ErikMesoy> | jerith: So what is @property /doing/ in your edited gist? Seeing "use methods" appears to have solved pretty much all the problems I had on my end without @property anywhere. |
| 20:02 | <&jerith> | The short answer is that you can use "foo.thing" instead of "foo.thing()". |
| 20:02 | <&jerith> | The long answer is a little more complicated. |
| 20:02 | <@ErikMesoy> | Oh. |
| 20:08 | <@ErikMesoy> | The documentation for property() is indeed rather more complicated. |
| 20:24 | <@pjdelport> | ErikMesoy: In short, it's a computed attribute. |
| 20:24 | <@pjdelport> | You access it like an attribute, but it computes its value on access like a method. |
| 20:25 | <@pjdelport> | Because it gets dynamically computed, you can refer to dynamic things like other instance attributes, methods, etc. |
| 20:26 | <@ErikMesoy> | jerith: Can a shorter form of ParentProp's method exist? I am muddling about with such things as 'hello=property("Hello, I am %s" % self.name)' , or that with a lambda, and getting various NameErrors and TypeErrors because name is not defined or I have the wrong number of arguments etc. |
| 20:27 | <@pjdelport> | ErikMesoy: property takes a callable |
| 20:28 | <@pjdelport> | So you either need foo = property(lamba self: ...) |
| 20:28 | <@pjdelport> | Or: |
| 20:28 | <@pjdelport> | @property |
| 20:28 | <@pjdelport> | def foo(self): return ... |
| 20:28 | <@pjdelport> | Which is different syntax for the same thing, basically. |
| 20:29 | <@pjdelport> | The second syntax is more standard for non-trivial properties. |
| 20:29 | <@ErikMesoy> | I thought I tried a lambda |
| 20:29 | <@pjdelport> | Did the lambda have a self argument? |
| 20:29 | <&jerith> | Your lambda needs to take exactly one mandatory argument. |
| 20:29 | <@pjdelport> | Without it you'll get a type error. |
| 20:30 | <@pjdelport> | It gets called as an instance method, with an instance as the sole argument. |
| 20:31 | | * ErikMesoy advances from lambda throwing TypeError, to lambda throwing NameError, to lambda doing the right thing. Woo! |
| 20:32 | <@ErikMesoy> | pjdelport: These are definitely trivial properties, many of them (or at least I expect there will be once this gets out of draft stage) so it would be nice to have them as single line declarations for a bunch of monster attributes |
| 20:33 | <@ErikMesoy> | Now to carefully comment what I'm doing so I don't ask this again in six months. |
| 20:33 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
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| 22:05 | <@abudhabi> | What's a good program for poor-bandwidth video conferences? |
| 22:05 | | * abudhabi asks because Skype is really shitty with that. |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | The only other one I've used with any success is GoToMeeting |
| 22:07 | <@Tamber> | s/ with that// |
| 22:07 | <&McMartin> | Google Hangouts IME is pretty bandwidth heavy, and I can't use it over a 3Mb connection |
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| 22:09 | | mode/#code [+o Crossfire] by ChanServ |
| 22:10 | <&jerith> | Skype is really shitty. |
| 22:10 | <&McMartin> | ... yeah, I suppose I should also ask what counts as 'poor bandwidth' here. 3Mb/s? 6Mb/s? dialup? |
| 22:15 | <@abudhabi> | I think it's like 1 Mb/s. |
| 22:15 | <&jerith> | My internet connection is closer to 3Mb/s than 6Mb/s. :-( |
| 22:15 | <@abudhabi> | It has abrupt dips sometimes, but you can't do anything about that. |
| 22:15 | <@gnolam> | McMartin: hmm. Can you mute individual participants in GoToMeeting? |
| 22:16 | | * gnolam is also looking for a beter video conferencing solution. |
| 22:16 | <@gnolam> | (All of the ones I've tried so far have been... temperamental... but most of the time it's someone with a bad mike or feedback screwing up the quality) |
| 22:16 | <&McMartin> | gnolam: My latest job uses Hangouts for everything, which does allow that but isn't, as I've said, very bandwidth friendly |
| 22:17 | <@abudhabi> | I'm also almost sure it's asymmetric. That's why I have trouble hearing and seeing the other side, but they see and hear me just fine. |
| 22:18 | <@gnolam> | Might still work then. It's rare that any of us do video meetings outside our respective offices. |
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| 22:57 | < Thalass|erhmahgherd> | https://yoursunny.com/t/2016/WiFi-flood/ <-- Must be good. Must not piss the neighbours off. |
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| 23:23 | <&McMartin> | gnolam: In that case, yeah, I can say with confidence that it totally works with multiple transoceanic participants if you have Office Internet. |
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| 23:30 | < Thalass|erhmahgherd> | Alas Discord doesn't have video calls yet |
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| 23:49 | | * McMartin gets back to writing |
| --- Log closed Sun Jun 12 00:00:35 2016 |