| --- Log opened Sat Mar 05 00:00:36 2016 |
| 00:08 | < Far> | "mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Access denied for user 'guestbook'@'localhost' (using password: YES) in /usr/home/[censored]/public_html/phpinc/gbconnect.inc on line 4" |
| 00:08 | < Far> | Wonder who thought itād be nice for the publicly viewable error message to also contain the password? |
| 00:13 | <~Vornicus> | uh? no, that's not the password, that just says whether a password is being used |
| 00:13 | <@gnolam> | ? |
| 00:13 | <@gnolam> | Exactly. |
| 00:13 | <@gnolam> | You have other ways besides passwords to authenticate with. |
| 00:14 | < Far> | Ah, ok |
| 00:14 | < Far> | My fault, then |
| 00:14 | <@gnolam> | So it is telling you that the attempt was made with password authentication (so you know to look there for errors). |
| 00:15 | <~Vornicus> | That would almost be the worst password I've seen over the past two months |
| 00:15 | < Far> | (The site I found that on looked pretty ancient and rusty, so I having a password of YES didnāt seem weird to me at all) |
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| 00:24 | < Far> | Is there a reason for this channel to have more ops than regular users? |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | Convention, mainly |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | The practical side of it is that we're a low-bandwidth channel so actually maintaining op coverage broadly increases it |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | The joke answer is "an armed society is a polite society" |
| 00:30 | | gizmore [kvirc@Nightstar-ki485q.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #code |
| 00:33 | < Far> | Low-bandwidth? |
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| 00:38 | | mode/#code [+o Alek] by ChanServ |
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| 00:41 | <&McMartin> | Far: We don't talk a lot |
| 00:42 | | gizmore|2 [kvirc@Nightstar-ki485q.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #code |
| 00:44 | < Far> | So you indeed werenāt referring to any network constraints, I see. Now, how does the volume of useful messages increase with more ops? (Or did you want to say 'more different personalities of ops'? ā Not entirely sure how to parse your message, but doesnāt make sense to me with either meaning) |
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| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | "Despite the number of ops, the number actually paying attention at any given time are probably in the 1-2 range" |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | That said, channel regulars being opped as they integrate seems to be fairly common on this network |
| 00:47 | < Far> | So it isnāt common to just issue a bot command like !ops here and have someone take care of whatever issue there might be? (The command would resolve to the opās names so they get highlighted) |
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| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | Nightstar tends to frown extremely hard on bots, as it happens |
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| 00:51 | < Far> | "Rules not listed here, whether you know them or not, will also be enforced." ā Nice ;) |
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| 00:52 | < Far> | Well, ok |
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| 00:56 | < Far> | For the last one and a half years, my main network was FreeNode (under a different name, might, btw., decide to change it here, too), where ##C++ has 948 users and it's common for coding channels to have compiler bots and for most of the big channels Iāve been to to have factoid bots |
| 00:56 | < Far> | If I decide to stay here, this might require some adaptation ;) |
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| 00:58 | | gizmore|3 [kvirc@Nightstar-ki485q.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, Nightstar and Freenode are *very different* in terms of attitude |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | Those are my two primary IRC networks |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | Nightstar is much closer to "that BBS your friend from high school set up to keep in touch later", overall, really >_> |
| 00:58 | <&Derakon> | Slower-paced, more personal. |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | (My third IRC network I'm on is *literally* set up by old college friends so that we stay in touch post-graduation) |
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| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | And yeah, that line in the topic about "high latency, excellent signal" is from people used to channels with a thousand members who show up and then depart after 45 seconds because "nobody ever says anything" |
| 01:01 | < Far> | Hmm, I guess I keep picking the wrong networks, I always seem to be one of the youngest, wherever I go ;) (Referring to BBS and people who set up IRC networks to keep in touch) |
| 01:01 | < Far> | Maybe I should have tried Quakenet ... :D |
| 01:01 | | * McMartin shakes his cane |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | Though yeah, I'm also deep into retrocomputing land, mostly |
| 01:02 | | * Far consults a dictionary |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | My blog is about 75% Commodore 64 hacking by weight |
| 01:03 | < Far> | :) |
| 01:26 | | * ToxicFrog pokes /usr/lib/bootloader with a stick |
| 01:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've been trying to use /etc/kernel/postinst.d, but it doesn't seem to be getting called properly, and it seems like /usr/lib/bootloader may be the more correct approach anyways. |
| 01:27 | | * ToxicFrog waves to Far. Welcome. |
| 01:27 | < Far> | Thanks :) |
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| 02:35 | <@Crossfire> | What would prompt one machine to lose net and refuse to regain it while another is on the network that isn't an IP collision? |
| 02:36 | < [R]> | What's the dead one's IP address? |
| 02:36 | < [R]> | (I'm assuming DHCP here) |
| 02:41 | <@Crossfire> | Internal is 192.168.1.140, mine (that killed it) is .135 |
| 02:42 | < [R]> | So they're both getting addresses, good. How are you testing network connectivity? |
| 02:43 | < [R]> | Pinging the router? |
| 02:45 | <@Crossfire> | And eachother, and using Win7 troubleshooting thingie. |
| 02:46 | <@Crossfire> | I'm at work, our Point of Sales system is on a remote desktop somewhere (don't ask) it went down, only went back online when I took my computer off the internet. |
| 02:46 | <@Crossfire> | When my computer is plugged in I have net (obviously) the other box has local net, and can ping and be pinged from mine just fine. But refuses to access the internet. |
| 02:47 | <@Crossfire> | I suspect the issue may be weird-as-fuck network setup with no logical explanation. |
| 02:47 | < [R]> | Check the ARP tables? |
| 02:47 | < [R]> | Possible MAC collision? |
| 02:47 | <@Crossfire> | Might be, but I don't have access to the ARP. |
| 02:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | wtf: "Your locale has changed since this album was last opened. Old locale: UTF-8, new locale: ISO-8859-1" |
| 02:48 | <@Crossfire> | Actually it shouldn't be, they've played well together for years. |
| 02:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | $ cat /proc/23875/environ | grep -aPo 'LANG=[^\x00]+' |
| 02:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | LANG=en_CA.UTF-8 |
| 02:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | you LIEEEEE |
| 02:48 | < [R]> | Windows has the arp command |
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| 02:55 | <@Crossfire> | Right, sorry, not even close. |
| 02:56 | | * [R] is just crossing off issues |
| 02:57 | < [R]> | What's the routing table like on the one that goes down? Can you check that? Or is it a PoS terminal that's locked down and you don't have any control over? |
| 02:59 | <@Crossfire> | Looks similar to mine. |
| 02:59 | <@Crossfire> | Am I looking for something in particular? |
| 03:00 | <@Crossfire> | Oh wait. |
| 03:00 | < [R]> | What's different on it? Just the ordering? |
| 03:00 | <@Crossfire> | It has net now. |
| 03:00 | <@Crossfire> | Hang on. |
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| 03:03 | <@Crossfire> | Difference in interfaces, and the other machine has a link to mine, and mine has a link to the other. Otherwise similar, even ordering. |
| 03:14 | <@Crossfire> | Still up. |
| 03:14 | <@Crossfire> | Thanks! |
| 03:24 | | * celticminstrel wonders if git has a way to specify "the last common ancestor of branches A and B". |
| 03:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | A...B |
| 03:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | (not to be confused with A..B) |
| 03:43 | <~Vornicus> | too many fuckin' dots |
| 03:47 | <@celticminstrel> | Seriously? |
| 03:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Huh, wow, that worked. |
| 03:48 | <@celticminstrel> | With 'git rev-parse' it outputs the hash of both tips, followed by the hash of the common ancestor. |
| 03:48 | <@celticminstrel> | The git documentation didn't manage to convey this at all. |
| 03:49 | <@celticminstrel> | (By which I mean 'git help rev-parse'.) |
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| 04:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: if you just want the hash of the common ancestor, I think what you actually want is git merge-base, not the low-level git rev-parse |
| 04:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | In particular, I'm pretty sure that rev-parse will actually give you all the commits leading back to that ancestor |
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| 04:10 | <@celticminstrel> | It only gave those three, but merge-base does indeed work better, giving only the desired one. |
| 04:10 | <@celticminstrel> | (The two branches have diverged by a fairly large number of commits.) |
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| 04:23 | <@celticminstrel> | Uh. VLC. Why is there an option in basic preferences that doesn't exist in advanced preferences. |
| 04:23 | | * celticminstrel wants to tell it not to check for updates every few hours. |
| 04:24 | | * celticminstrel because I can't be bothered with this minor bugfix update. |
| 04:25 | <@celticminstrel> | But I'd rather not have to disable update checking entirely. :/ |
| 04:25 | <@celticminstrel> | VLC also seems to like hiding all its dialogs when in the background. |
| 04:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Even modeless ones like prefs. |
| 04:26 | < Far> | Which is a good thing to me |
| 04:26 | < Far> | I hate modal dialogs in my face |
| 04:27 | <@celticminstrel> | They're modeless, so they shouldn't be hidden like that in my opinion. |
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| 17:57 | < kourbou> | Heya. Anyone know how to help me get a UEFI boot working? |
| 17:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | What bootloader? |
| 17:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have some experience with efistub, but that's about it |
| 17:58 | < kourbou> | Well unfortunately it's a stupid bootloader. |
| 17:58 | < kourbou> | Because I have to use goofiboot for Solus OS. |
| 17:58 | < kourbou> | https://solus-project.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1159 |
| 17:59 | < kourbou> | I installed the bootloader but it still brings me to the Windows bootloader. |
| 17:59 | < kourbou> | I tried using the EFI shell to force it. |
| 17:59 | < kourbou> | And I got into the actual bootloader, but it still redirected me. |
| 17:59 | < kourbou> | Back to Windows everytime. Whatever I do? |
| 18:00 | < kourbou> | I was hoping to add the Linux entry to the Windows bootloader, but apparently I can't do that. ._. |
| 18:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Do you have a linux liveCD or something you can use to check the output of "efibootmgr -v"? |
| 18:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, I'm not familiar with goofiboot -- what happens once you're into it? You tell it to boot linux, it kicks you into windows anyways? |
| 18:04 | < kourbou> | Well normally it's supposed to say "Solus OS" in the first hilighted line |
| 18:04 | < kourbou> | But it says "Windows Boot Manager" instead |
| 18:04 | < kourbou> | so it knows that I'm stuck. |
| 18:04 | < kourbou> | And I do have a liveCD to try that |
| 18:05 | < kourbou> | It's strange really I have 2 EFI folders. |
| 18:05 | < kourbou> | Don't know if you read the forum thread I sent. |
| 18:05 | < kourbou> | I asked the devs, but they look really lazy. :P |
| 18:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | I did. |
| 18:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | The windows EFI bootloader is in C:/EFI/? That's weird and also nonstandard. |
| 18:21 | < kourbou> | Yeah I'm not sure that's the actual EFI |
| 18:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, examine the partition tables on both disks and see which partitions are marked as ESPs |
| 18:22 | < kourbou> | The only file and folders are C:/EFI/Microsoft/boot/BCD |
| 18:22 | < kourbou> | ESPs? |
| 18:24 | < kourbou> | In the Disk Management thing the only EFI System Partition is on the second disk. |
| 18:24 | < kourbou> | Which is the only option where I could install it. |
| 18:24 | < kourbou> | So I know the EFI is there. |
| 18:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | EFI System Partitions |
| 18:24 | < kourbou> | Ah right. |
| 18:24 | < kourbou> | Well I just have one on the second disk. |
| 18:25 | < kourbou> | It's not set as "boot" though. |
| 18:25 | < kourbou> | My C: drive is. |
| 18:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | They're both GPT? What's the filesystem type? |
| 18:26 | < kourbou> | Yeah both GPT. |
| 18:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | And the output of efibootmgr? |
| 18:27 | < kourbou> | On my Win10 disk I have NTFS with Windows 10, RAW with Solus OS, a swap partition and a Recovery partition |
| 18:27 | < kourbou> | And the other it's Recovery, EFI, and NTFS Windows 8 |
| 18:28 | < kourbou> | And I haven't tried efibootmgr yet, I'm installing a thing on Windows so I'll try after |
| 18:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | "recovery" is DE94BBA4-06D1-4D40-A16A-BFD50179D6AC? |
| 18:28 | < kourbou> | what is that Hash code thing? xD |
| 18:29 | < kourbou> | I have a GUID for the Driver itself if that's what you're looking for |
| 18:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | That's a UUID and it's the UEFI filesystem ID for "windows recovery environment", which is the only UEFI filesystem type I can find that looks vaguely like "recovery" |
| 18:30 | < kourbou> | Ah. |
| 18:30 | < kourbou> | Anyway I can get that on Disk Management on Windows? |
| 18:30 | < kourbou> | I mean I figure it's just a recovery partition to fix Windows. |
| 18:31 | < kourbou> | And there's one on each disk except they're different sizes o.o |
| 18:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | I don't know how to get that info out of windows, no. |
| 18:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | Nor do I know how to look at the EFI boot variable.s |
| 18:34 | < kourbou> | Well I doubt the recovery partitions are EFI anyways. |
| 18:34 | < kourbou> | I just preffered computers when they were Legacy :| |
| 18:35 | < kourbou> | And you just had a boot sector |
| 18:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Honestly, I prefer UEFI because booting using efistub is really, really, really easy. |
| 18:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | But here's how it's meant to go: |
| 18:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | - system POSTs |
| 18:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | - boot table, stored in nvram and managed (on linux) using efibootmgr, is loaded |
| 18:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | - active boot entries are read in order; each one specifies a disk, partition, and file to load |
| 18:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | - if all of those fail, it starts scanning removable media (in unspecified order) for an ESP and tries to boot a well-known filename from that |
| 18:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | - if that fails, it does the same for internal media |
| 18:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | - if all of those fail it gives up |
| 18:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Most systems also have something you can press to list the boot table and let you pick a thing to boot from. |
| 18:43 | < kourbou> | Yeah mine is sh** |
| 18:43 | < kourbou> | I have an MSI motherboard. |
| 18:44 | < kourbou> | But I'll try "efibootmgr -v" and see what it gives. |
| 18:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | Among other things, this means that it shouldn't matter whether your boot partition is actually labeled as an ESP or not, as long as the entry in the boot table is correct and the firmware can mount it (which is guaranteed if it's FAT, and a crapshoot if it's anything else) |
| 18:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Anyways, so in principle, what's meant to happen here is: firmware gets to step 3, finds your goofiboot entry, loads and runs it from the appropriate partition, and at this point goofiboot takes over and reads its config files or whatever. |
| 18:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | If that entry is missing or invalid, it'll skip over that and go to the next one, which is probably still the windows bootloader, hence why it's still booting into windows. |
| 18:46 | < kourbou> | Well then I have two problems. |
| 18:46 | < kourbou> | 1. My motherboard isn't choosing goofiboot as a bootloader. |
| 18:47 | < kourbou> | 2. goofiboot doesn't know where my Solus files are. |
| 18:47 | < kourbou> | And both these things might come from the same mistake. |
| 18:47 | < kourbou> | But something I can try is maybe install Solus on the second disk? |
| 18:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | What mistake would this be? |
| 18:50 | < kourbou> | I have no clue. |
| 18:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | Anyways. efibootmgr and fdisk will let you debug the boot table and figure out why it isn't finding goofiboot automatically. As for why goofiboot itself isn't working, I don't know anything about it. |
| 18:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | It might be that it expects command line arguments to be passed to it by the firmware, which doesn't happen if you opt to run it as an EFI shell |
| 18:51 | < kourbou> | Basically here's what I did. I shrinked the C: drive to make space for Linux. I booted on my live USB. I installed Solus to the C: disk and when it asked if I wanted a bootloader I said yes and the only option was the other disk. |
| 18:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | (the boot table can include a command line for each bootloader; this is how kernel parameters are passed when using efistub) |
| 18:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | I mean |
| 18:51 | < kourbou> | Aaaah. |
| 18:51 | < kourbou> | So maybe that's why it did not work with EFI shell? |
| 18:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's also possible that your motherboard is just a giant tire fire and doesn't properly support boot tables referring to more than one disk or something |
| 18:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | But that's harder to fix :P |
| 18:52 | < kourbou> | Yeah... |
| 18:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | So let's see if it's something simple and fixable first. |
| 18:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | (I don't actually know if goofiboot expects command line arguments; like I said, I don't know anything at all about it. I boot my EFI machines using efistub, but they aren't dual-boot linux/windows machines, so I've never had to worry about that end of things.) |
| 18:53 | < kourbou> | I can read up on that |
| 18:55 | < kourbou> | "goofiboot executes EFI images. The default entry is selected by a configured pattern (glob) or an on-screen menu. goofiboot operates on the EFI System Partition (ESP) only. Configuration file fragments, kernels, initrds, other EFI images need to reside on the ESP. Linux kernels must be built with CONFIG_EFI_STUB to be able to be directly executed as an EFI image. goofiboot reads simple and entirely generic configurion files; one file per |
| 18:55 | < kourbou> | boot entry to select from. Pressing Space (or most other) keys during bootup will show an on-screen menu with all configured entries to select from. Pressing enter on the selected entry loads and starts the EFI image." |
| 18:55 | < kourbou> | It uses config files? |
| 18:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Huh. That sounds like it's a generic EFI boot manager for systems that don't have a built in boot selector. |
| 18:58 | < kourbou> | "Solus requires an EFI System Partition to be either present or created during install, and will only recognize an FAT or FAT32 partition on a GPT disk, with the ābootā flag set, as a valid EFI System Partition." |
| 19:02 | < kourbou> | I'm gonna boot into the live USB again |
| 19:02 | < kourbou> | finished the install. |
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| 19:06 | < kourbou> | Not asleep just yet. :P |
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| 19:07 | < ErikMesoy> | Norway: Students keep using googletranslate et al on their othernorwegian language exams, teachers despairing that they don't know how to stop this and suggest dropping the classes or at least not giving language grades. Local authority responds by saying "we can't drop othernorwegian classes, block the IP addresses instead". |
| 19:07 | < ErikMesoy> | "Othernorwegian" because the Norwegian language is fractally bullshit when it comes to modes of writing. |
| 19:09 | | NSGuest44733 is now known as kourbou |
| 19:11 | < abudhabi> | (And speaking.) |
| 19:11 | < kourbou> | Okay so ToxicFrog I'm now on the live. |
| 19:12 | < kourbou> | efibootmgr isn't installed it seems |
| 19:12 | < kourbou> | And it's not found in the repo. :| |
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| 19:29 | < kourbou> | Having trouble building efibootmgr |
| 19:30 | < kourbou> | err.h: No such file or directory |
| 19:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Might be in an "efi-tools" package or something stead? |
| 19:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | *instead? |
| 19:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | :/ |
| 19:33 | < kourbou> | No. :( |
| 19:33 | < kourbou> | How do you search for a package on pisi? |
| 19:34 | < kourbou> | Okay there's a gnu-efi package |
| 19:35 | < kourbou> | Didn't help. |
| 19:35 | < kourbou> | Oh there's a package called gummiboot. "Simple UEFI boot manager" |
| 19:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have no idea, I've never even heard of this distro before |
| 19:36 | < kourbou> | Yeah it's kind of annoying. :/ |
| 19:37 | < kourbou> | You know I'll try installing it on the second disk. |
| 19:43 | < kourbou> | GParted is awesome though. |
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| 20:15 | < kourbou> | I tried. Still not working. |
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| 20:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | At this point I don't think there's any help I can offer. :/ You're using a distro I know nothing about, a boot selector I know almost nothing about, you don't have access to the tools I'd normally use to debug this, and you're dual-booting, which I've never attempted on UEFI. |
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| 20:23 | < kourbou> | 9:20 PM <kour> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/Z7qKhU6v/irccloudcapture-2020477351.jp g |
| 20:23 | < kourbou> | It's really strange. |
| 20:24 | < kourbou> | 9:21 PM <kour> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/nLSkxggd/irccloudcapture-281837220.jpg |
| 20:24 | < kourbou> | I think this a bug with the installation itself |
| 20:25 | < kourbou> | There's no files in the loader/entries/ |
| 20:25 | < kourbou> | And I'm supposed to have files telling the bootloader what to start there. |
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| 22:35 | < game> | hi all i am making a hanmgman game gui i have the game class done the gameframe and the gameviewer so far i was ablabe to get 4 panels up my dashes are showing up keybard as well i donne the lisner to my keyboard but it still not writing anything yet i don't know where i got it wrong can any one have allok at it any advice help will be most appreciated |
| 22:36 | < game> | http://pastebin.com/D4k5EhHj hangmangame class |
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| 22:36 | < game> | http://pastebin.com/y9VT1ZtS hangmangameframe |
| 22:36 | | mode/#code [+ao jerith jerith] by ChanServ |
| 22:36 | < game> | http://pastebin.com/qjXAF3vM hangmangame viewer |
| 22:36 | < game> | this is my code |
| 22:37 | < game> | http://pastebin.com/D4k5EhHj hangmangame class |
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| 22:38 | <@Tamber> | Typical. |
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| 22:40 | < game> | hi all can i ask a question on java gui |
| 22:40 | < ErikMesoy> | Yes. |
| 22:40 | < game> | hi all i am making a hanmgman game gui i have the game class done the gameframe and the gameviewer so far i was ablabe to get 4 panels up my dashes are showing up keybard as well i donne the lisner to my keyboard but it still not writing anything yet i don't know where i got it wrong can any one have allok at it any advice help will be most appreciated |
| 22:40 | <@Tamber> | You're skipping. |
| 22:40 | < ErikMesoy> | That's not a question, that's a "please do my homework" statement, also you said that already. |
| 22:41 | < game> | i am trying to know what i am doing wrong not asking any one to give answer just bit of guideness |
| 22:41 | < ErikMesoy> | Try to ask a question that respects us as independent people with our own time and our own interests. We are not getting paid to help you, so try to convince us that it's worth the effort to look at your code rather than file you in the circular file. |
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| 22:43 | < game> | i am half way down in my code i jus hate be stuck that all why i am here and i dont want somebody else finish my work other wise all what i did is worth nothing |
| 22:43 | < ErikMesoy> | All right. Let's see. |
| 22:44 | < ErikMesoy> | Have you isolated the problem to the keyboardlistener? |
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| 22:44 | < ErikMesoy> | Have you tried making an independent listener to experiment with how it works? |
| 22:44 | < game> | i did a isner for all keyboard buttons cause i am using a n array for the keyboard |
| 22:45 | < ErikMesoy> | Have you tested this listener on its own? |
| 22:46 | < ErikMesoy> | I'm still reading your code, but the first thing that comes to mind is that you should test the listener on its own and see if it works by itself (without the rest of the Hangman code) so that you can check whether the problem is there. |
| 22:47 | < game> | i haven't tried that |
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| 22:56 | < ErikMesoy> | Oh wow, I was a little surprised by seeing char letter='A'; for i < 26: letter++ but apparently this is legitimate Java. |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, chars are secretly unsigned shorts, basically. |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | They're a fully integral type |
| 22:58 | <&McMartin> | (This is a very common idiom in quite a few languages) |
| 22:59 | <@celticminstrel> | I was under the impression that a char is typically 8 bits and a short is typically 16 bits. |
| 22:59 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh wait, Java. |
| 22:59 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay yeah, Java chars are 16 bits. |
| 22:59 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, Java chars are UCS-2 codepoints |
| 22:59 | < ErikMesoy> | I can see why they would have that idiom, but I can also see it leading to very silly things once you get outside of narrow usage. |
| 23:00 | < [R]> | UTF-16 is evil |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | What manner of silly things |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | R: I didn't say UTF-16 :9 |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | :( even |
| 23:00 | < [R]> | Same problems |
| 23:00 | < catadroid> | Not quite UTF-16 is less helpful |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 23:00 | <@celticminstrel> | My impression is that Windows uses UTF-16 and everyone else uses UTF-8. |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | Mostly true |
| 23:01 | | * celticminstrel isn't actually sure what the difference is between UTF-16 and UCS-2. |
| 23:01 | < catadroid> | Windows uses 16 bit wide characters |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | UCS-2 doesn't admit surrogate pairs exist, and just thinks they're illegal characters |
| 23:01 | < [R]> | Surrogate pairs? |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | UCS-2 is "This hails from a time when Unicode characters were 16 instead of 18 bit wide" |
| 23:01 | <@celticminstrel> | 16-bit characters are more convenient for string manipulation. |
| 23:01 | < catadroid> | UTF-16 has the ability to have wider than 16 bit characters to represent the rest of the code points |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | This keyboard is slowly failing :/ |
| 23:02 | < catadroid> | I'm drunk |
| 23:02 | < ErikMesoy> | McMartin: Silly things like incrementing something outside of A-Z and getting weird results because you haven't memorized the ordering of other symbols. |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | ErikMesoy: Ah, but you see |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | You *have* |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | The traditional implementation of tolower() for 8-bit characters is actually to use the character as a lookup index in a 256-byte array |
| 23:03 | <&McMartin> | (Because this lets you use implement it as a macro without worrying about side effects) |
| 23:03 | <@celticminstrel> | My library seems to use compiler intrinsics for it. |
| 23:03 | < [R]> | Really? I'd have assumed a ?: or if/else |
| 23:04 | <&McMartin> | [R] Then you can't implement it as a macro, because the argument appears more than once and if it's a function call or something, Bad Times. |
| 23:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Like, the definition is literall "return (__istype(_c, _CTYPE_L));" |
| 23:04 | < ErikMesoy> | McMartin: I'm pretty sure I haven't memorized any such ordering of chars other than a-zA-Z. Or even near-memorized it in a handy reference unless the Ā§!"#Ā¤%&/=? chain I get from holding Shift and sweeping my finger across the numeric row is supposed to be that ordering. |
| 23:04 | < ErikMesoy> | So what are you getting at? |
| 23:04 | < catadroid> | Lookup can be one to one mapping, conditionals are much slower |
| 23:04 | < [R]> | Ah right |
| 23:04 | <@celticminstrel> | (Why do they even bother using underscore-prefixing for local variables, anyway?) |
| 23:04 | <&McMartin> | ErikMesoy: Generic you |
| 23:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh wait, __istype isn't an intrinsic. |
| 23:04 | <&McMartin> | Anyone using the trick knows the ASCII order and is relying on it |
| 23:05 | < ErikMesoy> | McMartin: Right. That was a little confusing right immediately after being addressed by name. :P |
| 23:05 | <&McMartin> | ASCII = Latin-1 = Unicode, as well, for the first 127 codepoints |
| 23:05 | <@celticminstrel> | It's a function that calls another function __maskrune in some way that I don't understand (or care about). |
| 23:05 | < ErikMesoy> | It would have been clearer with something like "If you're a dedicated Java programmer, you have [memorized that]". |
| 23:06 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: underscore prefixes and double-underscore prefixes are space reserved in the standard for implementation-specific things, so that there aren't name collisions despite older languages lacking actual namespacing mechanisms, IIRC |
| 23:06 | <&McMartin> | ErikMesoy: This trick goes back decades before Java |
| 23:06 | <@celticminstrel> | Right, but with local variables and function parameters, there can't be name collisions anyway. |
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| --- Log closed Sun Mar 06 00:00:52 2016 |