| --- Log opened Mon Jan 25 00:00:20 2016 |
| 00:22 | | amp [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-n7ij3c.fl.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 00:22 | < amp> | hi |
| 00:22 | < amp> | ??? |
| 00:23 | < amp> | ??? |
| 00:23 | < amp> | ??? |
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| 00:25 | < catalyst> | okay |
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| 00:59 | <@Reiv> | Funny how they don't even read the topic, eh? |
| 01:04 | < catalyst> | :) |
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| 01:22 | <&McMartin> | This seems to happen in a lot of channels |
| 01:22 | <&McMartin> | If there aren't 50 lines a second blazing past the instant you log in, they just leave again |
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| 01:45 | <@Reiv> | I guess they want the channels where there /are/ 50 lines a second |
| 01:46 | <@Reiv> | I find these to be hard work, but maybe I'm just too far gone outta the matrix these days |
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| 02:59 | <@Reiv> | HEY VORN |
| 02:59 | <@Reiv> | Interesting tiny spot of math for you |
| 03:00 | <@Reiv> | So you're throwing three x-wing dice, right (4x hit2 2x eyes, 2x blanks) |
| 03:00 | <@Reiv> | The traditional way of boosting your hits is to either spend a Focus, turning all eyes to hits |
| 03:00 | <@Reiv> | Or to spend a Target Lock, rerolling all non-hits. |
| 03:00 | <@Reiv> | Conviniently, these both result in, on average, turning .5 hits per die to .75 |
| 03:00 | <@Reiv> | But there's an upgrade that I have been thinking about recently |
| 03:01 | <@Reiv> | It lets you spend a target lock as if it were a focus token, and you pick after the dice have rolled. |
| 03:01 | <&Derakon> | Spent a hit to reroll all non-hits! |
| 03:02 | <@Reiv> | I'm... curious how much of a difference that makes. It feels like it's doing one thing with the other, but that you pick afterwards means there are now guranteed more ways to get good results, but augh, I dunno man |
| 03:03 | <&Derakon> | My suggestion would be hilariously overpowered, I suspect~ |
| 03:04 | <@Reiv> | Derakon: ... actually it isn't, it'd be weak but interesting! |
| 03:05 | <@Reiv> | X-wing has a rule that you can only reroll and modify a die once; it'd be trivial to say you cancel the hit to reroll any other dice |
| 03:05 | <&Derakon> | Well, if you get a shit roll with only 1 hit, it's a no-brainer to spend it to reroll everything else, isn't it? |
| 03:05 | <@Reiv> | So you'd end up negating one hit to reroll non-hits |
| 03:05 | <@Reiv> | Absolutely! |
| 03:05 | <&Derakon> | The weird thing is that the value of that ability scales inversely with how good your rolls are~ |
| 03:05 | <@Reiv> | But it's not going to help you get, eg, all-hits. |
| 03:06 | <@Reiv> | Three dice means you can get, at best, two hits after using it |
| 03:06 | <@Reiv> | If you had <hit> <miss> <miss>, you're actually even odds after the cancel of doing no difference |
| 03:06 | <&Derakon> | I guess I don't have a feel for how many dice you usually roll. |
| 03:06 | <@Reiv> | 2-4; 1 & 5 are unusual. |
| 03:07 | <&Derakon> | Ah, okay. |
| 03:07 | <@Reiv> | You can theoretically throw, like, seven a couple different ways |
| 03:07 | <@Reiv> | But they boil down mostly to "Look at me, I have spent all my squad on this hilarious gimmick with a blatantly obvious weak point in my fleet" |
| 03:08 | <&Derakon> | But seven dice! |
| 03:08 | <@Reiv> | Right up until something explodes, yep ^.^ |
| 03:10 | <@Reiv> | Anyway, 1 is unusual to the point of "Your 2 attack ship got hit by a very specific crit, of which there are 2 out of a deck of 33" and "There is one ship in the game with it native, guess what, it has a turret slot" |
| 03:11 | <@Reiv> | "... And the designers regret that particular choice even now" |
| 03:11 | <&Derakon> | Turrets have better firing arcs than other guns, I take it? |
| 03:14 | | * Vornicus examines |
| 03:15 | <~Vornicus> | obviously you'll pick convert eyes if you have more eyes than blanks |
| 03:15 | <@Reiv> | Derakon: Turrets to date have all had the special rule of 'you may shoot outside of your firing arc' |
| 03:15 | <@Reiv> | Vornicus: Note that you could choose to reroll the eyes /and/ blanks, though |
| 03:15 | <~Vornicus> | Correct. |
| 03:15 | <~Vornicus> | But that's why you convert |
| 03:16 | <@Reiv> | Although, oh, right, it's guranteed better than the 50/50 isn't it |
| 03:19 | <@Reiv> | Then I guess the key becomes how often does that come up to make the difference |
| 03:22 | <~Vornicus> | Indeed. |
| 03:23 | <~Vornicus> | it's pretty significant, really: for an odd number of non-hits, exactly half will be better than average |
| 03:25 | <&Derakon> | Why does oddness matter? |
| 03:25 | <@Reiv> | Even has the chance for an equal split |
| 03:25 | <@Reiv> | If I roll three dice and get [hit] [eye] [blank]... |
| 03:26 | | * Reiv muses |
| 03:26 | <@Reiv> | I would probably reroll, actually, unless I knew that two hits was what I needed. |
| 03:27 | <@Reiv> | (Either because it'd be enough [ion cannons vs 1 AGI opponents] or I only needed one more damage through etc) |
| 03:27 | <@Reiv> | Otherwise it'd usually be a reroll; might as well hope for the best right |
| 03:27 | <&Derakon> | 0-AGI ships blow up? |
| 03:27 | <@Reiv> | They sure do! |
| 03:27 | <@Reiv> | After you shoot their hull off, anyway. Bloody Decimators. >_> |
| 03:28 | <@Reiv> | Decimators have 16 HP. Tres annoying to kill. |
| 03:28 | <&Derakon> | But they have low AGI? |
| 03:28 | <@Reiv> | 0 |
| 03:28 | <&Derakon> | Wait, so what does AGI affect then? |
| 03:29 | <@Reiv> | You roll attack dice to generate hits. You roll defense dice to generate evades, which cancel hits. Any spill-over reduces your hit points. |
| 03:29 | <@Reiv> | There are a dozen nuances to this, ofc, but that's the fundamental mechanic. |
| 03:30 | <@Reiv> | Noteworthy: There are more hit symbols (4/8, +2 eyes) on an attack dice than there are evades (3/8 + 2 eyes) on a defense dice |
| 03:30 | <&Derakon> | Ah, okay. |
| 03:30 | <@Reiv> | This is pretty deliberate in the name of 'get on with it', of course~ |
| 03:30 | <&Derakon> | So 0 AGI means every hit, well, hits. |
| 03:31 | <@Reiv> | Yep |
| 03:31 | <@Reiv> | Results in a kind of amusing implementation quirk |
| 03:31 | <@Reiv> | Heavy laser cannons (expensive, but 4 dice on attack) are best at shredding light, nimble fighters who rely on green dice rather than HP to live |
| 03:31 | <~Vornicus> | Hm, interesting |
| 03:31 | <@Reiv> | While the big heavy ships shrug, because they can tank it for a couple rounds, and never expected to not be hurt anyway. |
| 03:32 | <&McMartin> | The heavy ships fall to swarms, yes? |
| 03:32 | <~Vornicus> | It *appears* that the variation falls as the die count increases |
| 03:32 | <@Reiv> | Against those you want swarms of 2-attack fighters which are dirt cheap... but their attacks aren't being mitigated much, so they start shredding things nasty-like. |
| 03:32 | <@Reiv> | Vornicus: You may assume values between 1 and 6 |
| 03:32 | <@Reiv> | And even the 6 is pushing it |
| 03:33 | <~Vornicus> | So with one attack die you get 0.875/die expectation; two you get 0.844, three you get 0.828, four you get 0.818, and five you get 0.812 |
| 03:33 | <@Reiv> | But I might as well know how it works out for a Tantive IV firing boosted shots, right~ |
| 03:33 | <@Reiv> | ... oh really? |
| 03:33 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah. |
| 03:35 | <@Reiv> | Roughly a 10% boost. |
| 03:35 | <@Reiv> | Or to put the other way, you've reduced the odds of each die missing by, uh |
| 03:35 | <@Reiv> | hm |
| 03:35 | <~Vornicus> | And for 6 it's 0.806 |
| 03:36 | <~Vornicus> | Lower your attack is the better this choice ability is |
| 03:38 | <@Reiv> | ... Except you get this ability only once, on one ship, and it costs a fixed number of points |
| 03:38 | <@Reiv> | So you'll not put it on a 2-attack ship. |
| 03:39 | <&Derakon> | Are there any ships that give bonuses to adjacent allied ships? |
| 03:39 | <&Derakon> | Like, a giant shield bubble ship with no guns? |
| 03:39 | <@Reiv> | Derakon: Plenty |
| 03:39 | <@Reiv> | This particular upgrade is ship-specific, but there are entire ships dedicated to the idea too |
| 03:39 | <&Derakon> | Or a medical frigate that if it gets destroyed then you lose automatically? >.> |
| 03:39 | <@Reiv> | The HWK is the ship with 1 attack, for instance. Slap a turret on it, use it for the bonuses it hands your buddies. |
| 03:40 | <@Reiv> | Epic missions have some of that! |
| 03:40 | <@Reiv> | "Escort the ship" is a thing for mission play, if not compeditive |
| 03:40 | <&Derakon> | That was a Rogue Squadron 2 reference -- the Death Star 2 assault sequence, during the fleet battle section, you have to protect the medical frigate. |
| 03:40 | <&Derakon> | If it goes boom, you lose automatically. |
| 03:40 | <&Derakon> | How the fuck is a medical frigate vital to the battle? |
| 03:41 | <&Derakon> | Wait, how do you have missions? |
| 03:41 | <@Reiv> | the HWK has three bonuses: Let one ship Shoot First(tm), let one ship roll an extra attack die, or pass a friendly ship one of your focus tokens. (The ship includes a method of stockpiling the fuckers from previous rounds, so that's pretty handy.) |
| 03:41 | <@Reiv> | Derakon: Missions come on glossy paper rulebooks, you set up, they set up, you play the mission that has alternate rules from standard play. |
| 03:42 | <@Reiv> | These can include "Oh, and one of your ships gets an extra upgrade slot during character creation; your goal is to keep him alive", so there's no actual standard method of mixing them into a tournament yet, but |
| 03:42 | <@Reiv> | Great fun with a buddy on an occasional afternoon. |
| 03:43 | <&Derakon> | Okay, so this is just asymmetrical setups where one side plays The Antagonists? |
| 03:43 | <@Reiv> | At least one of them has the mission being to escort a Rebel Transport |
| 03:43 | <@Reiv> | Define 'antagonist', but yes~ |
| 03:43 | <&Derakon> | The GM, then. |
| 03:43 | <@Reiv> | mm, it's still compeditive 2p |
| 03:44 | <@Reiv> | Assymetrical setup, unusual board positions, irregular force composition rules, sometimes outright rule changes or new tokens |
| 03:44 | <@Reiv> | Different win conditions, especially noteworthy |
| 03:44 | <@Reiv> | Sometimes one side has "Get three of the tokens off the board" while the other side has "Kill everyone before the tokens are gone or six rounds are up", etc |
| 03:46 | <@Reiv> | Regular compeditive play is when people show up with 100pts each and try to murder one another in the face |
| 03:46 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, that's pretty straightforward. |
| 03:46 | <@Reiv> | It turns out that this is actually enough of a mode that there hasn't been much need for anything else yet~ |
| 03:47 | <&Derakon> | I guess I'm trying to figure out how you work, say, the campaign mode of SC2 into a game that's otherwise pure Super Melee mode~ |
| 03:47 | <@Reiv> | Interestingly, the core rulebook mentions it only in passing; it focuses on the missions you play with the ships in the pack. |
| 03:47 | <@Reiv> | Aaah |
| 03:47 | <@Reiv> | Then you want the Raider! |
| 03:47 | <@Reiv> | It has the best mission stories to date |
| 03:47 | <@Reiv> | You do a thing |
| 03:47 | <@Reiv> | If you succeed you get a bonus on the next mission doing a different thing, etc |
| 03:48 | <@Reiv> | I think there's even a branch in it on the 4th mission or something, I have to actually open mine and read it up |
| 03:51 | <@Alek> | stupid LibreOffice. -_- |
| 03:55 | | * Reiv tilts his head. Hunh. |
| 03:55 | <@Reiv> | 0 AGI tops out at 16 HP. |
| 03:55 | <@Reiv> | 1 AGI tops out at 13. |
| 03:56 | <@Reiv> | 2 AGI has 10 at most |
| 03:56 | <@Reiv> | (Lower than I expected, but there you go) |
| 03:56 | <@Reiv> | 3 AGI has 8, but that ship is /weird/ |
| 03:56 | <&Derakon> | High AGI would presumably eventually make a ship more or less untouchable. |
| 03:56 | <@Reiv> | Yup |
| 03:56 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 03:56 | <&McMartin> | There's also stacking focus tokens |
| 03:57 | <&Derakon> | Having high AGI and high hull strength would be a dick move. |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | My first game I was primarily flying Wedge Antilles' loyalist brother-in-law. |
| 03:57 | <~Vornicus> | I misread "stacking focus tacos" |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | Mmm, focus tacos |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | (Soontir Fel. He gets a free focus token whenever he takes a stress token.) |
| 03:57 | <@Reiv> | He flies an Interceptor. Frequently with 4 AGI and 3 HP and, uh, enough modifiers to keep it that way. |
| 03:58 | <@Reiv> | (There's an upgrade in the game that lets you take a second action (So, eg, a focus /and/ and evade in a single turn)... in return for a stress token.) |
| 03:58 | <&McMartin> | (Yeah, you give him that and he's a coffee achiever) |
| 03:59 | <&McMartin> | The hilarious thing about this is that the people who introduced me to the game were people I used to fly with and against in X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, the old game. |
| 03:59 | <&McMartin> | They come to introduce me to the game and they just hand me Soontir Fel/Push the Limit without a word |
| 03:59 | <@Reiv> | Yyyyyep |
| 03:59 | <@Reiv> | Did you hear about the guy that went to a Regionals last year with a joke list, McM? |
| 04:00 | <&McMartin> | No |
| 04:00 | <@Reiv> | Soontir Fel, PTL, Stealth Device, and Autothrusters... and a 65 point initiative bid. |
| 04:00 | <@Reiv> | He won two games~ |
| 04:00 | <&Derakon> | So...go first, spend all your stress, alpha-strike the enemy? |
| 04:01 | <@Reiv> | Er, stress is usually bad, and Focus can only modify dice once per roll |
| 04:01 | <&McMartin> | The usual trick is to focus, AND evade, and then get two focus tokens to burn |
| 04:01 | <&McMartin> | Now you've got all kinds of madness rerolls on attack and defend |
| 04:01 | <&McMartin> | *OR* instead of two focus tokens you do a barrel roll or boost or whatever |
| 04:01 | <&McMartin> | And just rely on Not Getting Shot At. |
| 04:01 | <&McMartin> | (Formally this is called "arc dodging") |
| 04:01 | <&McMartin> | But yes, Soontir was a major reason turrets were introduced in the first place. |
| 04:02 | <@Reiv> | So yeah, dude took one 35pt ship and managed to wipe two out of five 100pt fleets off the board |
| 04:02 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 04:02 | <@Reiv> | At least packing up to go home would have been easy~ |
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| 08:50 | < abudhabi> | Can anyone tell me why http://www.java-tips.org/java-se-tips-100019/15-javax-swing/763-how-to-create-a- virtual-desktop-in-your-application.html doesn't do anything when you add a JInternalFrame? |
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| 12:22 | < abudhabi> | Is there anything wrong substantially wrong with a design like so?: |
| 12:23 | < Emmy> | ? |
| 12:23 | < abudhabi> | (Describin'.) |
| 12:24 | < abudhabi> | - There's a JDesktopPane that has a number of JInternalFrames, and obviously references to manage them, these being added to the JDP. It also has a reference to a "Controller" class (or object; I'm uncertain whether it should be an instance, or a bunch of static methods). |
| 12:25 | < abudhabi> | - There's a BackendExecutor that runs things on the data, has timers, threads, the works. It has a reference to the Controller, too, which it uses to indirectly notify the JDP about any changes in the data that the JDP may want to refresh, or not not, according to its own logic. |
| 12:26 | < abudhabi> | - The Controller has references to both the JDP and BE, and works as a go-between them, having methods that allow these to communicate with each other indirectly. |
| 12:26 | < abudhabi> | (Done.) |
| 12:32 | < Emmy> | Hmmmh |
| 12:33 | < Emmy> | I assume that's Jscript or Java, in which case my GF is the superior mind |
| 12:35 | | * Emmy googles relevant terms, narrows down to java |
| 12:37 | < [R]> | <abudhabi> Can anyone tell me why http://www.java-tips.org/java-se-tips-100019/15-javax-swing/763-how-to-create-a- virtual-desktop-in-your-application.html doesn't do anything when you add a JInternalFrame? |
| 12:37 | < [R]> | --> Emmy (NSwebIRC@Nightstar-esfu0j.dynamic.ziggo.nl) has joined #code |
| 12:37 | < Emmy> | Does the controller do other things besides commanding the jdp and the BE? |
| 12:38 | < Emmy> | BTW, i should disclaim, i'm not a java programmer. :P |
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| 12:52 | < abudhabi> | Emmy: Not really? It's only supposed to facilitate communication so that when I change the backend details, I don't have to change the frontend. |
| 12:55 | < Emmy> | Hmmmmh. |
| 13:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | abudhabi: this sounds like fairly by-the-book MVC architecture? |
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| 13:36 | < abudhabi> | ToxicFrog: That's what I want, yes. |
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| 21:49 | < abudhabi> | Is it OK not to trust the graphical form painter of Netbeans' farther than I can throw it? |
| 21:50 | <&jerith> | I don't trust any GUI tools until they've proven to me that they work. |
| 21:51 | <&jerith> | Very few manage this. |
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| 22:13 | <&McMartin> | Very few isn't "no" - which wones *have* worked? |
| 22:14 | <&jerith> | I don't remember, unfortunately. |
| 22:14 | <&jerith> | I think I had rather lower standards. |
| 22:14 | <&jerith> | I remember Delphi's stuff being decent. |
| 22:15 | <&jerith> | There are a couple of code generators I've used to get the scaffolding and boilerplate out of the way and then I cleaned up and hand-edited the output. |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jan 26 00:00:36 2016 |