| --- Log opened Sat Jan 23 00:00:48 2016 |
| 00:17 | < [R]> | Derakon[AFK]: Datacollection? |
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| 01:22 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:22 | <&Derakon> | [R] That doesn't obviously indicate how it's different from a Datastore. |
| 01:24 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-bt5k4h.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 01:31 | <~Vornicus> | What's this thing we're naming? |
| 01:31 | | * ToxicFrog successfully boots using EFISTUB |
| 01:32 | <~Vornicus> | oh i see |
| 01:44 | <~Vornicus> | DataWhiteboard |
| 01:52 | <~Vornicus> | PencilDataStore |
| 02:30 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
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| 03:07 | <@iospace> | ToxicFrog: I see EFI and think the EFI of UEFI type |
| 03:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | iospace: yes, exactly |
| 03:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | EFISTUB is a compile-time linux kernel option that makes the kernel itself a valid UEFI bootloader |
| 03:09 | <@iospace> | fun |
| 03:09 | <@iospace> | it's been too long since I've used it T_T |
| 03:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | So rather than taffing around with the tire fire that is grub2, you just plop vmlinuz and initrd.gz into /boot/efi and make it bootable with efibootmgr |
| 03:09 | <@iospace> | or well, coded on it |
| 03:09 | <@iospace> | (I use it every day, but I miss coding with it) |
| 03:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | And then it's directly selectable from the firmware boot selection interface |
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| 05:54 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
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| 08:23 | | * McMartin forks his first project on Github. |
| 08:24 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: I have regularly been terrified at the level of power EFI offers |
| 08:24 | <&McMartin> | Like, it's basically "who needs a singletasking operating system, just use the frickin' firmware" |
| 08:25 | <&McMartin> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski#Zawinski.27s_law_of_software_envelo pment |
| 08:25 | <&McMartin> | This is arguably the reason EFI replaced BIOS, right here |
| 08:31 | < catadroid> | Not because it's bad form to expect every system to boot in 16-bit real mode? |
| 08:33 | < catadroid> | Sometimes I worry about my programming ability and feel inadequate and then I solve my work colleagues problem by looking up how lvalues and rvalues work and their interaction in the standard and know why something has occurred fifteen minutes later >.> |
| 08:33 | < catadroid> | Add punctuation as necessary |
| 08:39 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 08:53 | | macdjord|slep is now known as macdjord |
| 09:57 | <&McMartin> | Yay |
| 09:57 | <&McMartin> | Found in this sourcebase |
| 09:57 | <&McMartin> | symbolInContextType * |
| 09:57 | <&McMartin> | getWorkingContext(identifier) |
| 09:57 | <&McMartin> | symbolTableEntryType *identifier; |
| 09:57 | <&McMartin> | { |
| 09:57 | <&McMartin> | Oops |
| 09:57 | | * McMartin tries that again |
| 09:57 | <&McMartin> | /* This is the most horrible piece of code I have ever written in my entire life -- cbm */ |
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| 20:45 | < abudhabi> | MVC theory. Can someone explain what exactly the Controller part is? I grok the Model and the View, but what is the Controller, if not everything that remains? |
| 20:45 | < Azash> | The controller is kind of akin to a router |
| 20:45 | < Azash> | Takes request, finds appropriate models, offloads the work to them, then collects the results and passes them to the view |
| 20:49 | < Azash> | What's that two-stage distributed computing idea called again? It's a bit similar to that |
| 20:50 | < abudhabi> | In a webpage working on data from a database, say a Java thingy, where the View is the JSP files and ActionBeans, the Model is the Java-interpretation of the database information, what is the Controller there? The servlet thingamajigs that handle URLs? High-level calls for data? |
| 20:51 | < catadroid> | The model is the data organised in relation to the data, the view is some external slice or manipulation of that data and the controller is the logic that marshals between them |
| 20:51 | < Azash> | Basically what catadroid said |
| 20:51 | < Azash> | The controller gets the request and checks the data |
| 20:51 | < abudhabi> | That sounds like my first-order approximation of "everything in between". |
| 20:51 | < Azash> | It figures out which models and model objects are needed and gets them |
| 20:51 | < Azash> | It tells them what to do |
| 20:52 | < Azash> | Then it gets the results of the computation |
| 20:52 | < Azash> | It just organizes the work but offloads as much as possible to the models |
| 20:52 | < catadroid> | In a Web world I imagine the model could be a database, the view a page layout and the controller the requests |
| 20:52 | < Azash> | Then it passes the results to the view |
| 20:52 | < catadroid> | The reason to do this is so you can develop UI separate from organising your data |
| 20:52 | < catadroid> | As far as I can tell |
| 20:53 | < Azash> | re. Java interpretation of DB information, I've seen both models that have both logic and database mapping, or approaches where you separate between the model and the DBO (the latter being a thin wrapper around the DB) |
| 20:53 | < catadroid> | The view and controller often seem muddled |
| 20:53 | < abudhabi> | Yes. They seem muddled to me. |
| 20:54 | < abudhabi> | The specific case I would especially like to figure out, is how to separate Java Swing stuff as largely independent of the underlying application. |
| 20:54 | < abudhabi> | So that I could, say, design something that someone else, better with UI, could design an alternative interface for. |
| 20:55 | < abudhabi> | So that the same program could be serviced with a View that could be Swing, or console, or a custom 3D engine, or whatever. |
| 20:57 | < catadroid> | One formulation I've seen is in Windows WPF, where the model is raw data, the view is empty GUI containers with a defined interface and the controller (or view model) is the events and observable behaviour overhead |
| 20:57 | < catadroid> | So the view can be developed on idealised data and the layout done separate from logic |
| 20:58 | < catadroid> | You can also have multiple instances of the controller to the same view interface but different models |
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| 21:08 | <&jerith> | In most web frameworks, "view" means "template". |
| 21:09 | <&jerith> | Django explicitly calls itself MVT for "model, view, template" because it thinks "view" is a better name for what other things call "controller". |
| 21:09 | < catalyst> | I think it might be as well |
| 21:10 | < gizmore> | real devs code INDEX ... all in one index.php |
| 21:10 | <&jerith> | The standard in some cultures (especialy the parts of the Rails community I've seen), is to put a bunch of business logic in the model layer. |
| 21:11 | <&jerith> | Which I think is a terrible idea. |
| 21:11 | <&jerith> | gizmore: The countertroll to that is "real devs don't write PHP", but that's elitist and hostile and I'm trying to stop being those things. |
| 21:12 | < gizmore> | of course real devs invoce perl-cgi via index.php, because they didnt knew how to change the auto-index in apache |
| 21:13 | <&jerith> | Real devs know how to read documentation and, when that fails, code. |
| 21:16 | <~Vornicus> | CodeIgniter has "controllers" which requests get routed to and will call model and view functions; "models" which are supposed to do the actual, and "views" which are templates. |
| 21:16 | <~Vornicus> | I still don't know what the hell "business logic" is supposed to mean |
| 21:16 | <&jerith> | Vornicus: Basically anything that isn't presentation logic or a database query. |
| 21:16 | < abudhabi> | Vornicus: Anything not boilerplate. |
| 21:17 | <&jerith> | If you have an API and a web frontend, the business logic is the behaviour common to both. |
| 21:19 | <&jerith> | Let's say you have a webapp that generates invoices. |
| 21:20 | <~Vornicus> | Okay so that's what I'd call, uh, half of model |
| 21:21 | <&jerith> | The business logic is the code that decides which transactions are relevant, correlates them, summarises them, and passes the resukt to the presentation layer. |
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| 21:22 | <&jerith> | *result |
| 21:23 | < Quigley> | Hi! Might any of you be familiar with glm? |
| 21:23 | <&jerith> | What's glm? |
| 21:24 | < Quigley> | it's a c++ library that does matrices and vectors, for opengl stuff |
| 21:24 | <&jerith> | Ah. Not my thing at all. |
| 21:26 | < Quigley> | Just trying to figure out if I should put the translation part of the translation matrix in the left most column, or the bottom most row. matrices hurt me |
| 21:27 | <~Vornicus> | most matrices I see that include translation put the translation in the rightmost column |
| 21:28 | <~Vornicus> | -- what row something is in tells you what part of the *output* it is for, and what column it is in tells you what part of the *input* it is for |
| 21:29 | < Quigley> | (whoops, I meant rightmost instead of leftmost. I also put mine in the bottom row, whoops x 2) |
| 21:29 | <~Vornicus> | So basically you only ever use the bottom row (of a d+1 by d+1 matrix) when doing a projection step. |
| 21:29 | < Quigley> | aw, I side step that a little; mine is a 3x3 matrix, for 2D coordinates |
| 21:30 | <~Vornicus> | Works out. |
| 21:36 | < Quigley> | I couldn't figure out how the library wanted the matrices, or how it multiplied them... so I kind of looked up matrices on KidzMath and combined all the rotations and scaling and stuff myself |
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| 21:36 | < Quigley> | I have 0 clue if it works yet, does it even look right? https://www.dropbox.com/s/r9djocmfop3fyzy/conversions.png |
| 21:38 | <~Vornicus> | I'm surprised there's stuff in the bottom row a little bit. |
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| 21:40 | <~Vornicus> | Oh I guess that's your translation stuff in the wrong place |
| 21:41 | < Quigley> | aye, I'm not sure how opengl likes it... I read that it's column major, whatever that is |
| 21:42 | <~Vornicus> | "column-major" and "row-major" tell you basically what order the individual entries are stored in memory |
| 21:43 | <~Vornicus> | I don't remember which is which, but for one of them, getting how x affects y is M.x.y and the other is M.y.x |
| 21:43 | < Quigley> | column vs. row always confuses me somehow, I wish it was something easy like hotdogs vs. corndogs |
| 21:44 | <&Derakon> | The thing that annoys me is when you need to pass row/column dimensions to a method or similar and the parameter list has rows first. |
| 21:44 | <&Derakon> | That's the Y axis, numbskull! |
| 21:44 | <@Tamber> | Something something optimised memory access, maybe? |
| 21:44 | <@Tamber> | (Optimised in air-quotes.) |
| 21:51 | <@gnolam> | https://twitter.com/_Pandy/status/689209034143084547 |
| 21:52 | < abudhabi> | Hahaha. |
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| 21:57 | <~Vornicus> | looks like column-major means that it's M.x.y |
| 21:58 | < Quigley> | Aw, thanks! |
| 21:59 | <~Vornicus> | So your translation terms are in M.w.x and M.w.y |
| 21:59 | <~Vornicus> | (or, if it's array indexes, M[2][0] and M[2][1] |
| 21:59 | < Quigley> | glm is weird, it accesses it's elements like M[x].y, so when it's written out in code, the translation terms are on the 4th line |
| 22:00 | <~Vornicus> | that is weird. |
| 22:02 | < Quigley> | lucky for me, because I messed that up too, in a way that somehow cancelled out the first mess up |
| 22:05 | <~Vornicus> | pff |
| 23:21 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| --- Log closed Sun Jan 24 00:00:04 2016 |