| --- Log opened Sat Oct 03 00:00:05 2015 |
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| 02:35 | <@celticminstrel> | My XSD keyref is not working when it selects the root element... |
| 02:47 | <@celticminstrel> | I have two almost identical keyrefs. The one that doesn't apply to the root works. The one that does, doesn't. (At least with xmllint.) |
| 02:48 | <@celticminstrel> | The idea is for one of the attributes on the root element to reference a name attribute elsewhere in the document. |
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| 03:57 | <~Vornicus> | (also those two eradicate-everything wins were on 'regular'; we haven't even gotten close on 'beginner' in pandemic 4p) |
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| 04:14 | <@celticminstrel> | I guess xpath='elem' means "any elem nested under the current element". |
| 04:14 | <@celticminstrel> | What I needed was xpath='.' |
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| 15:42 | | * catalyst successfully sets up a Rust environment in a matter of minutes |
| 16:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | I was well impressed with the tooling for Rust. |
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| 16:45 | | * jerith refactors pypy's optmizer to use loops instead of recursion. |
| 16:45 | <&jerith> | (Mostly so that fijal doesn't have to hit so many keys in pdb when he's debuggin.) |
| 16:45 | <&jerith> | *debugging |
| 16:47 | <&jerith> | Meta-optimization! I'm improving the performance of the optimization writing process. ;-) |
| 17:01 | < catalyst> | :D |
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| 17:27 | <@Tamber> | You're breaking your tools with your tools? |
| 18:37 | | * catalyst fails to work out how to call Win32 API functions from Rust |
| 18:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | They're just normal C functions, right? |
| 18:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Or are they C++? |
| 18:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Rust can't call C++ directly yet. |
| 18:49 | | Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: @iospace, @Syloq, tripflag, Xires, @Derakon[AFK], wowaname, @Reiver, @Vornicus, @froztbyte, @celticminstrel, (+20 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) |
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| 18:51 | < [R]> | Win32 is C |
| 18:53 | <@celticminstrel> | Win32 is C, but with different calling conventions than standard C. |
| 18:54 | <@celticminstrel> | I think the API functions are usually __stdcall, while the C library is __cdecl. |
| 18:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | I can help with writing Rust functions that are callable from C, but I've never called C from Rust |
| 19:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | That said, this looks like it may still be relevant: http://gekkio.fi/blog/2014-10-08-calling-win32-api-with-rust-ffi.html |
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| 19:03 | < [R]> | What's the diff between __stdcall and __cdecl? |
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| 20:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | [R]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_calling_conventions has the details |
| 20:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | But the non-detailed answer is that the difference is in who (caller or callee) cleans up the stack, which registers are used, and how arguments are passed. |
| 20:46 | < [R]> | Why would everything in Win32 be declared like that then? (What are the benefits?) |
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| 21:09 | <&McMartin> | STDCALL is, IIRC, the Pascal ABI. |
| 21:15 | <&McMartin> | Looks like IDNRC |
| 21:15 | <&McMartin> | stdcall's 'advantage' is that it came first never changed because that would break every program ever. cdecl came to dominate organically, and after it did, MS made it the default. |
| 21:16 | <&McMartin> | *came first. It never changed |
| 21:19 | < catalyst> | I have discovered how to call into the windows api directly |
| 21:19 | < catalyst> | and am now using a library so I have no need to ever do so again |
| 21:20 | < catalyst> | In other news, Sublime Text seems pretty decent |
| 21:21 | <&jeroud> | catalyst: It's the only editor other than the Venerable Two that I've been able to use for more than a couple of weeks. |
| 21:21 | < catalyst> | fair |
| 21:22 | < catalyst> | (although I don't get on with emacs or vim at all) |
| 21:22 | <&jeroud> | (It lasted about three months before I got too frustrated with the limitations of its programmability and went back to emacs.) |
| 21:23 | <&jeroud> | (But I have somewhat unreasonable requirements.) |
| 21:23 | < catalyst> | somewhat of a LISP? |
| 21:31 | <&jeroud> | No, I want to be able to customise pretty much every bit of behaviour. |
| 21:31 | <&jeroud> | elisp is a truly horrible language. |
| 21:33 | <&jeroud> | Atom looks vaguely promising in that regard, but it's nowhere near mature enough yet and I need pretty compelling evidence before I'm prepared to trust anything built on top of a web client stack. |
| 21:42 | <@celticminstrel> | What's the Venerable Two? Emacs and vim, or something else? |
| 21:42 | <&jerith> | celticminstrel: emacs and vim. |
| 21:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Eh. |
| 21:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Emacs I can handle, at least. |
| 21:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Though ever since I discovered nano I've preferred that for editing files over a ssh connection. |
| 21:43 | <&jerith> | I'm fairly proficient with both, but emacs fits me better. |
| 21:43 | <&jerith> | AARGH! |
| 21:43 | <&jerith> | By default, nano mangles files. |
| 21:43 | <@celticminstrel> | I think I tried Sublime Text and was put off by the prefences UI. |
| 21:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Or rather, the lack of it. |
| 21:43 | <@celticminstrel> | ^preferences |
| 21:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Mangles how? |
| 21:43 | <&jerith> | It likes to hard-wrap by inserting linebreaks. |
| 21:44 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. I don't think I've ever had that problem. Maybe fedora's yum sets more sensible defaults than the default defaults. |
| 21:44 | <&jerith> | It's possible. |
| 21:44 | <&jerith> | Or maybe you haven't edited files with the wrong kind of lines. |
| 21:45 | <@celticminstrel> | Maybe. |
| 21:45 | <&jerith> | The reason it's dangerous is that it happens rarely enough that it's unexpected. |
| 21:45 | <@Tamber> | Ugh. Nano's auto-mangle feature; because "destroy every line you touch that's longer than the screen" is totally a good default. |
| 21:46 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm pretty sure I've edited files with lines longer than the screen. |
| 21:46 | <@celticminstrel> | I don't use it that often though. |
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| 21:46 | <@Tamber> | Maybe it's got proper defaults set, then. |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | nano on Fedora definitely doesn't do that |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | It doesn't wrap them at all and displays a $ at the edge of the screen to indicate "there's more line here" |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | I've used nano as my default configuration file editor for something like seven years now or more and this is totally the first I've heard of it defaulting to hard-wrap |
| 21:48 | <&jerith> | McMartin: That's also part of the danger. One day you'll use it on a different system and be surprised. :-/ |
| 21:48 | < [R]> | nano on Arch didn't do that either. |
| 21:48 | <&jerith> | (That bit me in the past.) |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | ... that's also an occupational hazard for emacs, jerith, and you know it full well, it's why you insist on it |
| 21:48 | < [R]> | I suspect idiot distro configs. |
| 21:49 | <&jerith> | McMartin: I don't use emacs without pulling all my configs, because I can't use it without them. |
| 21:49 | <&jerith> | I generally use vim on remote machines. |
| 21:50 | | * [R] uses vim everywhere ATM |
| 21:50 | < [R]> | Will be playing with emacs soonish |
| 21:50 | <&jerith> | Anyway, most of the reason I'm grumpy about nano is that there really isn't anything better in that space. |
| 21:50 | <&McMartin> | Just checked Ubuntu; Ubuntu also behaves as Fedora and Arch do. |
| 21:50 | <&jerith> | You basically get nano or vim or rummage around in the package manager. |
| 21:51 | < [R]> | A curses editor that uses simple key-combos? |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | viz. correctly |
| 21:51 | <&jerith> | McMartin: Yeah, it's becoming more common as a default config. |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | I have literally never heard of this before |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | I am wondering if it is the distro "everybody sane uses" that had an insane default. |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, I was unclear re: emacs |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | "Someday you will use someone else's machine and their text editors will have surprising defaults" is, for me, any time I use somebody else's machine. |
| 21:52 | <&jerith> | McMartin: No, I think it's just that modern distros ship non-default configs a lot more than older ones did. |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | My own .emacs basically sets bsd brace discipline and that's about it beyond path management |
| 21:54 | <&jerith> | McMartin: Yeah. The thing about emacs is that it's a pretty mediocre editor without a bunch of customisation and therefore I expect every emacs to behave differently from mine. |
| 21:54 | | * McMartin checks nanorc |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | It seriously looks from here like "do not do line fill" is the default. |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | There's a sample "set fill -8" command in it that is commented out. |
| 21:55 | <@Tamber> | http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?36523 |
| 21:55 | <@Tamber> | So it used to be the default in the package; maybe that's changed recently-ish. |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | Aha, there it is |
| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | No, it's that there are several ways |
| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | And while fill (the emacs-like name) is uncommented, it does explicitly set nowrap |
| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | It's just that every distro I ever used that used it did this. |
| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | Excepting, possibly, gentoo in 2003. |
| 21:57 | <@Tamber> | Which will probably be using whatever default ships out of the box. (and may still be doing so. I don't know, I don't touch nano if I can help it, due to that.) |
| 21:57 | <@Tamber> | ...yeah, still commented out on Gentoo. |
| 21:57 | <&McMartin> | OK |
| 21:58 | <&McMartin> | This is a case like SVN then |
| 21:58 | <&McMartin> | "This is a terrible program, today, because of bad decisions fixed eight years ago, which is after I abandoned it ten years ago" |
| 21:58 | <&McMartin> | Which turns out to also be my opinion of Gentoo, so~ |
| 21:58 | <&jerith> | McMartin: I don't think Gentoo's bad decisions were ever fixed. |
| 21:59 | <&McMartin> | Right, but their more recent decisions don't bear on my bad opinion of Gentoo~ |
| 21:59 | <&jerith> | And arch inherited many of them.~ |
| 21:59 | <&McMartin> | Apparently not this one~ |
| 22:00 | <@Tamber> | Presumably because they actually expect people to use it, so fixed the crazy default. |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | Which, looking into it, appears to exist because nano was intended to replace pico, which was created for composing email. |
| 22:01 | <@Tamber> | Well, that makes a surprising amount of sense~ |
| 22:02 | <&jerith> | Yes. |
| 22:03 | <&jerith> | Insane default often do make more sense once you trace their history. |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | Still no excuse for Gentoo's USE flag chaos |
| 22:04 | <&jerith> | Yeah. |
| 22:05 | <&jerith> | Although Gentoo's downfall was pretty much entirely repo quality. |
| 22:12 | <&jeroud> | Anyway, I'm glad nano's better than it was. |
| 22:19 | | * Vornicus still doesn't know how anyone gets *started* using emacs. it seems to think entirely unlike anything else he's used |
| 22:19 | <@Tamber> | Little bits at a time. |
| 22:22 | <&McMartin> | Well, first off |
| 22:22 | <&McMartin> | People do mostly use the arrow keys and not Ctrl-F and Ctrl-B like the tutorial implies. |
| 22:26 | <&Derakon> | Generally you get started with Emacs by memorizing C-x C-s and C-x C-c. |
| 22:26 | <&Derakon> | And otherwise treating it as a basic WYSIWYG editor. |
| 22:40 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 22:55 | <&McMartin> | And if you want to import all the default editing keys on OSX, since it turns out they don't conflict with any of Emacs's own defaults, Aquamacs defaults to both sets of commands simultaneously. |
| 22:57 | <@celticminstrel> | Amazing. |
| 22:57 | <@celticminstrel> | Incidentally, I believe XCode by default supports emacs editing keys in addition to regular Mac ones. |
| 22:58 | <&McMartin> | well, if we're being super picky |
| 22:58 | <&McMartin> | so does Terminal.app, at least for the basics like C-a and C-e. |
| 23:01 | <@celticminstrel> | Is C-u an emacs thing? |
| 23:01 | <@celticminstrel> | I often use that to delete the command and start over. |
| 23:01 | <&Derakon> | I just use C-a C-k for that. It works in all OSX text-entry fields. |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | C-u (some number) (key to repeat that many times) is indeed an Emacs thing. |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | C-a C-k is also emacs |
| 23:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Uh, no, it's just Ctrl-U and all the text on the line disappears. |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | Then no~ |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | C-a C-k is the emacs command for "go to beginning of line, cut from cursor to end of line" |
| 23:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Actually, it's all text to the left of the cursor. |
| 23:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Not all text. |
| 23:03 | <@celticminstrel> | Ctrl-U I mean. |
| --- Log closed Sun Oct 04 00:00:21 2015 |