| --- Log opened Thu Aug 13 00:00:30 2015 |
| 00:05 | <@Reiv> | I must say I'm not wholly impressed with Ubuntu |
| 00:06 | <@Reiv> | I get that it's originally a command-line system, and that command-line functionality is absolutely something useful to keep around, no problem there |
| 00:07 | <@Reiv> | But your shiny desktop UI *keeps failing me*, and if you're trying to be a GUI then I consider 'the only viable way of doing X is via commandline' to be a failure mode of your system |
| 00:07 | <@Reiv> | First and foremost, please give me a force-kill button in there somewhere that a muggins can find it |
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| 00:09 | <&jerith> | Reiv: Ubuntu was a reasonable desktop system before they ditched gnome in favour of their own horrible thing. |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | And Fedora was a reasonable desktop system before they didn't ditch GNOME and followed it to GNOME 3 >_> |
| 00:10 | <@Reiv> | snerk |
| 00:10 | <@Reiv> | Damned if you do, etc |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | (Both let you pick other window managers) |
| 00:11 | <&jerith> | It's still a reasonable server system, but I refuse to run it on any machine that expects to have a display plugged directly into it. |
| 00:11 | <@Reiv> | Is there a mainstream linux flavour with a *better* UI? |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | If you were OK with GNOME 2, then Mint's defaults are all at least OK |
| 00:11 | <&jerith> | McMartin: Some of the Unity stuff still runs in the background and screws things up, though. |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | I refuse to call the minimal desktop environments like xfce and DXE usable |
| 00:11 | <@Reiv> | Because the use case is 'we want to just use the computer, and as far as I'm concerned dropping to command-line means the GUI has failed me' |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | ... the only Linux-based system I know that can dodge that failure mode is Android~ |
| 00:12 | <@Reiv> | See, that's my objection |
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| 00:12 | <@Reiv> | 90% of the time, Ubuntu manages it! |
| 00:13 | <&jerith> | At least, that was the case when I last used this stuff and tried really hard to get the maintainers to even understand that there was a problem. |
| 00:13 | <@Reiv> | But then it turns out its default software-installation app is rubbish, and AFAICT there is no Task Manager type GUI interface anywhere for when Steam crashes or whatever |
| 00:14 | <&jerith> | Reiv: FWIW, I find any system unusable if it doesn't have a reasonable command line. This is largely why I haven't even bothered trying Windows for the past decade or so. |
| 00:14 | <@Reiv> | jerith: I get that, and a commandline is very handy |
| 00:14 | <&jerith> | (Also, I am atypical.) |
| 00:15 | <@Reiv> | But you're not gonna get traction until I can run my computer for weeks at a time without having to fire up Terminal and copy+paste arcane invocations to Do Simple Shit |
| 00:15 | <&McMartin> | (PowerShell!) |
| 00:15 | <&jerith> | (I completely agree with you as long as you're not including me in your target audience.) |
| 00:15 | <@Reiv> | My ideal would be both |
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| 00:15 | <@Reiv> | I feel Linux is closer to the ideal than Windows |
| 00:16 | <&jerith> | (McMartin: Yes, I've been considering that for a while.) |
| 00:16 | <@Reiv> | But its failure modes are more visible to the commoner (ie GUI based) too |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | (I want to learn PowerShell, but I want to learn it so I can bind F# code to it. >_>) |
| 00:16 | <&jerith> | (If it were the only problem I had with Windows...) |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | (This puts it at "learn to play banjo" levels of priority) |
| 00:16 | <&jerith> | (I should probably look into F# sometime.) |
| 00:17 | <&jerith> | Reiv: Sounds like you want OSX, actually. |
| 00:18 | <&McMartin> | (The last time I looked at it was flagrantly OCaml.NET. I understand it has since evolved some away from both, which still keeping the bones of both.) |
| 00:18 | <&McMartin> | (But this worked out for my needs being "well, or I could just write 20 lines of C# and be done with it" so I did) |
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| 00:18 | <@Reiv> | jerith: I probably do, except I inherently object to walled gardens |
| 00:19 | <@Reiv> | And I also don't think that Linux has any excuse for not reaching for the OSX-level of GUI capability |
| 00:19 | <@Reiv> | I mean, I'm not talking 'obscure software settings' or 'custom semi-automated scripts' here, I'm talking "Program X on my taskbar has frozen up, can I kill it please" and "I would like to install Y with all its dependencies and shit" |
| 00:20 | <@Reiv> | Oh, and "I'd like to be able to monitor just which software is clogging up my system right now" on occasion too |
| 00:20 | <&jerith> | (I really like OCaml.) |
| 00:20 | <@Reiv> | So, you know. A functional installation system and Task Manager suite or something |
| 00:20 | <@Wizard> | The two main things there are that one, you need UX projects for Ubuntu or whatever (and I'm a bit surprised too that they don't do more), and second, it's really a bootstrapping thing |
| 00:21 | <@Wizard> | Getting a better interface gets more users gets more work gets a better interface |
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| 00:22 | <&jerith> | Reiv: OSX isn't much more walled-garden than Windows. |
| 00:23 | <&jerith> | iOS is very walled-garden, but that's not OSX. |
| 00:25 | <@gnolam> | Reiv: or just "I would like to be able to set a sane date and time format" :P |
| 00:30 | <@Reiv> | Gnolam: ? |
| 00:30 | <@gnolam> | This is something that, AFAICT, every single Linux distro fails at. |
| 00:30 | <@gnolam> | Command line and arcane file editing required. |
| 00:36 | <@Reiv> | Oh, yeah. |
| 00:36 | <@Reiv> | I guess the problem is |
| 00:37 | <@Reiv> | We're asking dudes whose skillset inherently incentivises commandline use to do the hard work at making it so the commandline isn't~ |
| 00:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...I have never used a Linux distro in, at least, the last ten years that didn't have a convenient GUI for time/date/currency/etc configuration. |
| 00:49 | <&McMartin> | I'm not willing to state with confidence that GNOME 3 didn't remove it |
| 00:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | That said, the "arcane file editing" is a single line in your shell's rc. |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | A file that you need special knowledge to even get the OS to admit exists, and of which there are at least three possible filenames |
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| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | Sorry, I'm going to have to call that as counting as arcane |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | (Remember, everyone in this channel is *literally a wizard*.) |
| 00:51 | <@Wizard> | Yes |
| 00:51 | <&McMartin> | Some more literally than others. |
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| 01:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, fair point. |
| 01:20 | < catadroid> | sometimes a witch |
| 01:26 | | * ToxicFrog has been *nixing for so long that he files "editing your shell's rc" in the same bucket as "File->Preferences" |
| 01:26 | | * ToxicFrog compares catadroid to a duck? |
| 01:41 | | * Alek is a sorcerer's apprentice. >_> |
| 01:41 | <@Alek> | (or at least want to be) |
| 01:51 | | * macdjord hacks Alek up with an axe, ends up with /two/ Aleks. |
| 01:55 | <@Alek> | ow. |
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| 02:50 | <@Reiv> | ToxicFrog: Right, and that there I think is the problem with the GUIs built for Linux a lot |
| 02:51 | <@Reiv> | The people doing the writing of the stuff don't see what's 'hard' about the commandline to start with, and appreciate the flexibility and power thereof |
| 02:51 | <@Reiv> | So you get decent UI experience for the day-to-day point-and-click-at-things, because that's convinient |
| 02:52 | <@Reiv> | And so the point-and-click-at apps get preferences screens, because you're building GUI anyway, right |
| 02:52 | <@Reiv> | But it seems to be lacking anywhere you'd want a Program Manager type interface, because that's when you drop to commandline, the fast, easy, convinient solution*. |
| 02:52 | <@Reiv> | The asterisk is because the last statement is completely true *provided you are a wizard*. :p |
| 02:53 | <@Reiv> | And it is wizards who write the software. Thus. |
| 03:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | what do you mean by "program manager"? |
| 03:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Because I can think of three possibilities and all of them are well-served in GUIs in linux. |
| 03:34 | <@macdjord> | ToxicFrog: "What is currently eating 90% of my CPU? Oh, that? Kill it." |
| 03:34 | <@macdjord> | Basically, what the Task Manager does in Win. |
| 03:40 | <~Vornicus> | That usually is not difficult to find but I can't remember the name of it |
| 03:41 | <@Alek> | How difficult is it to make it both powerful enough to do the job, and secure enough that other (malicious or accidental) programs can't hijack it for their own purposes? |
| 03:42 | <@Alek> | I mean, imagine a virus that would sigkill your AV scanner. >_> |
| 03:42 | <~Vornicus> | Uh |
| 03:43 | <~Vornicus> | See, it involves being on the other side of this airtight hatchway |
| 03:44 | <~Vornicus> | On *nix, you can't do anything to another user's procs unless you're root |
| 03:46 | <@Reiv> | Yeah, on nix that's not such an issue |
| 03:47 | <@Reiv> | It's an issue on Windows, which is partly why the antiviruses are so infamously stubborn at being uninstalled |
| 03:47 | <~Vornicus> | It's not that much of an issue on Windows either |
| 03:47 | <@Reiv> | (I am also reminded much to my hilarity of one botnet virus that actually *installed and ran an antivirus and firewall* on the infected machine; all the better to keep *itself* eating the system resources without being noticed, m'dear |
| 03:48 | <~Vornicus> | it's just, well, windows users tend to be idiots |
| 03:48 | <@Reiv> | And yes, it had modified AV libraries that whitelisted itself, but otherwise [and that whole 'hijacking your computer thing'] was, y'know, actually providing bonafide software) |
| 03:48 | <~Vornicus> | or at least a higher proportion of idiots, than linux users |
| 03:49 | <@Reiv> | If anyone can tell me what I should be using as a task manager in Linux, I'm all ears. |
| 03:49 | <~Vornicus> | I don't remember the name |
| 03:50 | <@Reiv> | When I've asked previously, I've mostly recieved scoffing and "Pssht, you should just be using terminal to kill -9 *10 /c &j 24760 667, what's so hard about that" |
| 03:50 | <~Vornicus> | it should *not* however be hard to find, and the name will be relatively obvious |
| 03:51 | <~Vornicus> | pretty sure gnome and kde have different names for them |
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| 03:55 | <@macdjord> | Reiv: I suppose it comes down to viewpoints. 'If I have to open up the command line, your GUI has failed' vs. 'If you can't handle a command line, you shpuldn't be ouching this bit /anyway/'. |
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| 04:41 | <~Vornicus> | Hey Reiv, what do you call it when you, uh - uh - how do I put this. Ah, by example. I have D&D character sheets in a SQL database; I have it separated out so a character's skill ranks are in their own table (obviously), so you have Beef | Religion | +20 / Beef | Athletics | +10 |
| 04:41 | <~Vornicus> | or whatever |
| 04:41 | <~Vornicus> | And I want to create a view where the column headings are skill names |
| 04:42 | <~Vornicus> | so each character has a row and their skill ranks are listed in that row |
| 04:43 | <~Vornicus> | (also if you know how to do this in mysql that would be ultraboss) |
| 04:45 | <@Reiv> | Oh I see |
| 04:45 | <@Reiv> | You need PIVOT, and my god help your soul |
| 04:46 | <@Reiv> | Because mysql doesn't have it as a built-in function, and it's terrible anyway |
| 04:47 | <@Reiv> | Honestly the easiest way is to plug Excel into the database and do it there |
| 04:47 | <@Reiv> | If you *insist* I can provide instruction on how to do it the awful way |
| 04:49 | <@Reiv> | But you're left with: Excel plugged in directly, SQL-compatable programming languages, or the Mother Of Unholy Case Statements. |
| 04:50 | <@Reiv> | The *problem* that leaves us with so few options is that SQL is Not Great at dynamically screwing with columns, because it's assumed that, you know, these are one of the fundamental atomicities of your data. |
| 04:50 | <~Vornicus> | so long story short bust out the python and get to chewing |
| 04:52 | <@Reiv> | Ehh, pretty much |
| 04:53 | <@Reiv> | Otherwise you end up writing shit like http://pastie.org/10347532 (stolen from a webpage) |
| 04:53 | <@Reiv> | It'll work, and for a small number of columns it's fine, but this is D&D, there are not a shortage of columns |
| 04:53 | <@Reiv> | So bust out the python, even if it's just to programatically generate /that/ table and call it done~ |
| 04:53 | <@Reiv> | This is the classic case of dynamic SQL being handy, so yeah |
| 04:54 | <@Reiv> | (Oracle has a PIVOT statement but it's still not great) |
| 04:55 | <~Vornicus> | Mine is around 5. |
| 04:56 | <@Reiv> | If you only need 5 columns, then CASE might be OK |
| 04:57 | <@Reiv> | But I think what you really have is that each hero might only have 5, but they're from a list of, like, 20 |
| 05:02 | <~Vornicus> | ...6 |
| 05:02 | | * Vornicus count distincts. |
| 05:11 | <~Vornicus> | (it's actually more like ability scores, in that sense) |
| 05:16 | <@Reiv> | Oh, then a case is probably OK |
| 05:19 | <@Reiv> | select name, MAX(Religion), MAX(Athletics), MAX(foo) from (select name, case when skill = 'religion' then bonus else null end as Religion, case when skill = 'Athletics' then bonus else null, etc from skilltable) as pivot |
| 05:19 | <@Reiv> | group by name |
| 05:20 | <@Reiv> | Disclaimer: Oracle's MAX function handles nulls cleanly; they're dropped as part of selecting the biggest (Thus a column with only one value and all else is null gets that value alone) |
| 05:20 | <@Reiv> | If mysql doesn't do that, it'll have another function somewhere that does the equivalent |
| 05:20 | <@Reiv> | Like I say it's clunky, and if you were running D&D 3.5 with its thirty-odd skills I would be distinctly inclined to go the dynamicSQL route |
| 05:21 | <@Reiv> | Not least for when some smartass takes Craft(Basketweaving) |
| 05:21 | <@Reiv> | Is this D&D Next, perchance? |
| 05:22 | <~Vornicus> | It is a buzzfeed quiz |
| 05:24 | <@Reiv> | what |
| 05:24 | <@Reiv> | You're running SQL to solve a buzzfeed quiz |
| 05:25 | <~Vornicus> | No, I *implemented* a buzzfeed quiz |
| 05:25 | <~Vornicus> | And I need to dump the data for people who cannot into sql. |
| 05:26 | <~Vornicus> | so it's got a table for quiz question-answer pairs for each quiz attempt |
| 05:26 | <@Reiv> | Aah |
| 05:27 | <@Reiv> | Wait why are you implementing buzzfeed quizzes |
| 05:27 | <@Reiv> | ... do you work for buzzfeed |
| 05:27 | <~Vornicus> | No. |
| 05:27 | <~Vornicus> | No I do not. |
| 05:27 | <@Reiv> | Just checking. |
| 05:27 | <@Reiv> | :p |
| 05:28 | <~Vornicus> | But it's the kind of quiz it is, y'know, buncha multiple choice questions, you get an categorization at the end. Once this thing launches I'll link you up, it is a fine site. |
| 05:29 | <@Reiv> | Just checkin' |
| 05:48 | <@Reiv> | oh hey Vorn |
| 05:49 | <@Reiv> | There's now a reason to field a quintet of A-wings~ |
| 05:49 | <@Reiv> | 5x Green Squadron Pilots are a very fast and decently tanky list against the new Twin Laser Turret card. |
| 05:49 | <~Vornicus> | Nice. |
| 05:50 | <@Reiv> | Which is pretty much built to kill high-agility glass cannons, heh |
| 05:50 | <@Reiv> | But A-wings are just tanky enough, and GSPs have precisely enough PS to outbid the standard carriers, so they can boost their way into point blank for murderings. |
| 05:51 | <@Reiv> | I, uh, won't be doing it ever |
| 05:51 | <@Reiv> | This would require me to be made of money |
| 05:51 | <@Reiv> | But it pleases me that it exists >_> |
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| 09:58 | <@TheWatcher> | ... 50MB of xml to process, ugh |
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| 13:09 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, great |
| 13:09 | <@TheWatcher> | 50MB of XML with errors in it |
| 13:09 | <@Tamber> | Ewwww. |
| 13:09 | <@TheWatcher> | XML::LibXML is pointing and laughing at it >.< |
| 13:17 | <@TheWatcher> | fffffff |
| 13:19 | <@TheWatcher> | Think I'm going to have to hand-trim this to fix it >.< |
| 13:25 | <@TheWatcher> | y'know what, no. regex time |
| 13:25 | <@Tamber> | ... |
| 13:25 | <@Tamber> | I know you like unleashing abominations, because Perl, but... XML and regex!? |
| 13:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Ctrl-x Ctrl-w hecomes.pl |
| 13:27 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 13:30 | < abudhabi> | THE DESTROYER IS MANIFEST (in Poland). |
| 13:37 | <@TheWatcher> | Mwahahahahahaha |
| 13:37 | <@TheWatcher> | IT'S ALIVE |
| 13:39 | <@Tamber> | o: |
| 13:50 | <@TheWatcher> | 57033528 bytes, down to 204995, cleaned and working perfectly. |
| 13:51 | <@Tamber> | Appears to be working perfectly, anyway. :p |
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| 13:52 | <@TheWatcher> | Nope, checked it, everything that should be there is there. |
| 13:52 | <@Tamber> | Fairy nuff. |
| 13:53 | <@TheWatcher> | All I needed to do was pull out a subset of elements to use as the input to another system the once |
| 13:54 | <@TheWatcher> | ("all" when it involves that much junk data...) |
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| --- Log closed Thu Aug 13 15:06:56 2015 |
| --- Log opened Thu Aug 13 15:08:10 2015 |
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| 17:24 | < [R]> | <macdjord> Reiv: I suppose it comes down to viewpoints. 'If I have to open up the command line, your GUI has failed' vs. 'If you can't handle a command line, you shpuldn't be ouching this bit /anyway/'. <-- IMO a better option could be "The GUI is training wheels, if you want to keep them on, that's fine, but we're going to show you the CLI way to do it." |
| 17:26 | < [R]> | Info4Vorn: If you're just doing that in the CLI utility, try a \G instead of a semi-colon. |
| 17:28 | < catadroid> | the GUI is a much better mechanism for constraining and laying out your options so you make the important choices |
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| 22:18 | <@Reiv> | [R]: I consider that unacceptable; I do not ever expect, for instance, My Dear Mother to have to learn a commandline just to Use Her Computer(tm) |
| 22:18 | <@Reiv> | I do expect her to be able to do the majority of configuration, including basic software management, herself. |
| 22:19 | <@Reiv> | Remember: For a nontrivial portion of the population, commandlines are Wizardry, and will probably remain so until we start teaching such things in schools alongside english |
| 22:19 | <@Reiv> | But as I have also noted, it is those very Wizards who do the writing. :p |
| 22:19 | < Meatyhandbag> | teaching them in schools is one thing, but don't require them to make things opperational |
| 22:45 | | * McMartin was trained from birth by a secretive ninja clan |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | aka "It wasn't until my ninth or tenth computer type I interacted with that powering on didn't dump you to BASIC, which was also your DOS" |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | OK, that cheats in various ways |
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| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | Let's see |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | Eliding the cases like my dad setting me at the age of 2 in front of the expert system he worked on at his day job as a stress test... |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | ZX81, IIe, C64, IIc, DOS (*), BASICA (*), then Win95 as the first that defaulted to GUI |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | Er |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | DOS/BASICA cartridge (*), IIgs (*), Win95 |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | (*) had a GUI but I didn't use it that way in the circumstances |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | Our IIgs labs were basically IIe labs with nicer keyboards and some special software. I didn't learn about its Mac-like workbench mode until a decade later |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | Oooh, parser combinators in Rust |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | https://github.com/Geal/nom |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | This may be relevant to some people's interests here |
| 22:55 | < [R]> | Reiv: "if you want to keep them on, that's fine" |
| 22:56 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 22:56 | <@TheWatcher> | Mine were ZX81, Dragon64, ZX Spectrum 128, (with BBC micro at school thrown in there somewhere) and then Amiga 500 was the frist with a GUI |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | So, I mean, my C64 had a GUI mode, but you had to load it up off a disk after booting to BASIC |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | I'm treating that like Windows 3.1 |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | That said |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | Full-GUI consumer machines show up first in '84 and every major manufacturer that isn't IBM has one by '85 |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | '85 is crazy early |
| 23:09 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 23:23 | <@Reiv> | [R]: Not quite sure how to parse that |
| 23:51 | < [R]> | You missed part of my comment entirely. |
| 23:51 | < [R]> | Specifically the part where I had stated that someone could still use the GUI until they die. |
| --- Log closed Fri Aug 14 00:00:46 2015 |