| --- Log opened Wed Jul 29 00:00:01 2015 |
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| 04:17 | | * McMartin 10x's himself, spending all day making minor tweaks to the 1000 lines of code he wrote yesterday so that it actually, like, functions at all. |
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| 04:34 | <&Derakon> | I'm not familiar with the verb "to 10x". |
| 04:36 | <&McMartin> | So, there's the fabled 10x programmers, who are proverbially 10 times as productive as regular programmers. |
| 04:37 | <&McMartin> | There is an alternate proposed definition of such developers, which is "developers that can go so wildly into technical debt that they appear more productive than the ten devs you need to clean up his mess." |
| 04:38 | <&McMartin> | Yesterday I was That Guy |
| 04:38 | <&McMartin> | Today I am Those Other Guys. |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | The Mega Man thing is fun. |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | Also, bler, I am incredibly tired |
| 04:42 | <&Derakon> | Ah ha. |
| 04:42 | <&Derakon> | I suspect I was a .1x today~ |
| 04:44 | <&Derakon> | I need to improve the ergonomics of my desk if I'm going to work more effectively at home, I think. |
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| 06:33 | <@froztbyte> | argonautomics |
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| 10:18 | < abudhabi> | How do I indicate, in bash, "Nth parameter and all subsequent ones"? |
| 10:22 | <@TheWatcher> | IIRC, you can use ${@:3} |
| 10:23 | <@TheWatcher> | where '3' is the arg to start with |
| 10:23 | <@TheWatcher> | (remember 0 is the script name, 1 is the first arg, etc) |
| 10:27 | | * TheWatcher sighs at magic |
| 10:27 | <@TheWatcher> | (Literally, libmagic >.>) |
| 10:28 | < abudhabi> | Ah. |
| 10:28 | | * abudhabi wants to test out http://askubuntu.com/questions/53896/natural-sounding-text-to-speech (first answer) later. |
| 10:29 | < abudhabi> | Except with not needing to enquote the parameter. |
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| 13:41 | < abudhabi> | Is there some wrapper for Java's http connection stuff? |
| 13:42 | < abudhabi> | I mean, it works OK, but it requires a bit of setup to make do stuff. It could definitely use some sort of library that makes using it simplified. |
| 13:47 | <@TheWatcher> | This is java; getting away with just "a bit of" setup is something to celebrate~ |
| 13:47 | < abudhabi> | Pff. |
| 13:47 | <@Tamber> | Where "a bit of" is *only* two pages of boilerplate? |
| 13:53 | < abudhabi> | This seems OK: http://square.github.io/okhttp/ |
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| 13:59 | < ErikMesoy> | How much RAM should I have in a future-resistant new machine, multipurpose? (can't expect "future-proof".) I'm slightly confused by how my nearly decade-old machine had 8GB, and when I consider 12GB on new one, sales guy tries to downsell me to 8GB and says I'd be wasting my money. Admission against interest there. |
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| 14:00 | < ErikMesoy> | Did something funny happen in computer development where baseline demands of RAM went up to "run fancy OS" and then everything else got constrained by the OS? |
| 14:00 | < ErikMesoy> | (Completely free speculation there.) |
| 14:01 | <@TheWatcher> | Rule of thumb: buy as much memory as you can fit on the motherboard, or as much as you can afford, whichever happens first. |
| 14:02 | <@TheWatcher> | no such thing as too much memory |
| 14:02 | < ErikMesoy> | I mumbled weirdly here before about a $2 typing tutor that required 2GB of RAM to run. Also, the next release of Big Honking StarCraft will expect 2GB of RAM. Man what. |
| 14:02 | < abudhabi> | It really depends how much stuff you want to run at the same time. |
| 14:02 | < abudhabi> | If you never want to shut down an application, there's no such thing as enough RAM. |
| 14:03 | < abudhabi> | OTOH, if you don't run particularly many things, 4 GB may be entirely sufficient. |
| 14:07 | < ErikMesoy> | I see. |
| 14:08 | < abudhabi> | I'd actually want more RAM on an office machine than a gaming rig. |
| 14:13 | | macdjord is now known as macdjord|wurk |
| 14:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, I would say 8GB is ample for modern gaming unless you also want to run lots of stuff in the background along with the game. |
| 14:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | On the other hand, my desktop at work has 24GB and that's a bit cramped. |
| 14:30 | <&McMartin> | This is progressively less of an issue as people upgrade their OSes, but it's worth noting that if you have a 32-bit OS, you are effectively restricted to 2GB, not 4, and 2GB *will* be cramped for a fair amount of stuff. |
| 14:31 | <&McMartin> | (By default, half the address space is yoinked by the kernel) |
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| 14:46 | | * McMartin reads the early reviews of Win10 |
| 14:46 | <&McMartin> | Yep, this is an early access public beta all right. |
| 14:46 | | * McMartin will hold off for a month or so. |
| 15:00 | < catadroid> | ToxicFrog told me that most people don't read the C++ standard for pleasure as a hobby... |
| 15:00 | <&McMartin> | It is not typical. |
| 15:01 | <&McMartin> | I should actually try to cover-to-cover the Fourth Edition of Stroustrup's book. |
| 15:04 | <&McMartin> | I have this sinking suspicion that the design issue I am having is because I haven't sufficiently internalized the interaction between forward declarations and templated methods. |
| 15:05 | <&McMartin> | A thing that, by rights, I should not have to give a shit about, but :C++: |
| 15:05 | <@Tamber> | *faint whooshing sounds* |
| 15:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: on windows, it's 2-3GB depending on boot options; on Linux I think it can go all the way up to 4GB per process using PAE, but don't quote me on that. |
| 15:07 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: Having experimented with those boot options, setting it to anything but 2 has a tendency to open portals to R'lyeh |
| 15:07 | <&McMartin> | It once locked itself in 4-bit color mode, it was amazing. |
| 15:07 | <&McMartin> | There is apparently code in there for autodithering the defautl Windows wallpaper to the 16 CGA colors. |
| 15:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I've never had problems with /3GB, but I've never used /PAE. I'm given to understand that using both at once, or using /3GB when you have more than 4GB of physical RAM installed, can be exciting, though.. |
| 15:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | Hah. |
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| 15:08 | < catadroid> | I'm basically implementing a subset of the standard library |
| 15:08 | < catadroid> | it's quite soothing |
| 15:10 | <&McMartin> | I'm trying to implement a nice piece of the C# standard library that I learned and which then promptly spoiled me forever on top of boost::asio |
| 15:10 | <&McMartin> | And I've got about 97% of it, but the remaining 3% is chafing really hard |
| 15:10 | <&McMartin> | I don't *need* it |
| 15:10 | <&McMartin> | But its absence is directly responsible for a piece of this code having 16 levels of indentation. |
| 15:10 | <&McMartin> | I'd like to avoid that if possible. |
| 15:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which piece is that? |
| 15:16 | <&McMartin> | The Task/TaskCompletionSource set; what async/await mostly replaces, but for Reasons(tm) C++'s coroutine libraries aren't worth the effort so we're not using boost's own async/await. |
| 15:17 | <&McMartin> | What I have is more or less identical to JS6's promise API, which actually plays rather nicely with C++11 and its lambda syntax/std::bind/etc, except for that whole sixteen-levels-of-indentation thing when you need to chain a bunch of stuff up. |
| 15:18 | <&McMartin> | (And that was more or less trivial to do with boost::asio; I think it's under a hundred lines even if you're counting the "}" lines) |
| 15:18 | <&McMartin> | The part I don't have is the ability to jump out a level on your return, the way .then() does, which lets you chain them up without nesting calls |
| 15:19 | <&McMartin> | That's a lot easier when your language is garbage collected, as it happens~ |
| 15:19 | <&McMartin> | And while I can write out five-line functions to get that behavior, they end up mixing forward declaations with templates, and I invariably am Doing That Wrong |
| 15:19 | <&McMartin> | Which means I need to go do a refresher on that corner of the language. |
| 15:20 | <&McMartin> | (Also, I can't ping my co-workers about this, because the ability to answer questions like that about C++ were part of why I was hired in the first place. It is a good thing that I am not prone to impostor syndrome -_-) |
| 15:21 | <&McMartin> | It's now good enough, though, that even without the language lawyering the code is performing about where I expect it to; this is now instead a source of irritation, not a design blocker. |
| 15:22 | <&McMartin> | What's actually blocking me is that I'm now at the point where I can't implement any more use cases without really nailing down error continuations, so I suspect that will be my task today. |
| 15:26 | <&McMartin> | On the language design front, of C#, JS, and C++'s own std::promise and std::future (which are not asynchronous, but leave that aside for now), I think I do like C#'s the best |
| 15:27 | <&McMartin> | I don't have a useful analysis of why though |
| 15:42 | < catadroid> | I enjoy how C#is to write but it feels wrong in terns of potential performance holes to me |
| 15:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | How do std::promise and std::future differ, and...how can they not be asynchronous? That's kind of the whole point. |
| 15:47 | <&McMartin> | You may call std::promise::get_future() exactly once to get a future. |
| 15:47 | <&McMartin> | std::future::get() is a blocking operation if the promise is pending. |
| 15:48 | <&McMartin> | The aren't asynchronous because C++11 has no native asynchronous libraries, and therefore promise and future aren't~ |
| 15:48 | <&McMartin> | That said, C++'s promise/future notions are very close to Clojure's, which are in turn completely different from JS's. |
| 15:48 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure if this is some kind of rival-schools-of-terminology thing. |
| 15:50 | <&McMartin> | I haven't dug too deeply into what else std::future can do since I determined they were Not What I Needed, but I assume there's some way to construct a future such that it takes a function-equivalent and the future value is the result of that function. |
| 15:50 | <&McMartin> | ... I suppose I should clarify that I'm using "asynchronous" here in the sense of boost::asio, and not in the more general sense of "nonblocking" |
| 15:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh |
| 15:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, the latter is how I was using it |
| 15:51 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 15:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | Clojure futures block if you deref them and they aren't yet complete, but you can also query for completeness in a nonblocking way with future-done? |
| 15:51 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 15:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which is the behaviour I expect from futures. |
| 15:52 | <&McMartin> | C# Tasks are basically futures, and C# TaskCompletionSources are basically promises, and they can be treated as nearly equivalent, but you run a function to complete a task, and you assign to a TaskCompletionSource to complete it. |
| 15:53 | <&McMartin> | Right. |
| 15:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | (a promise is basically a single-shot, single-item concurrentqueue wrapped in a future, at least in clojure; I haven't encountered promises in other languages) |
| 15:53 | <&McMartin> | (That is basically how they work in C++, except the containment struction makes it look like the promise wraps the future rather than the other way around) |
| 15:53 | <&McMartin> | (*structure) |
| 15:54 | <&McMartin> | (TaskCompletionSources are noticably not single-shot, so once they have been completed, you can deref them as many times as you want. It appears to be an error to call get_future on std::promise() more than once, but maybe I'm doing it wrong) |
| 15:55 | <&McMartin> | (std::thread is an entirely new library to me since this is my first real dive into C++11) |
| 15:56 | <&McMartin> | (It has not escaped my notice that Google's C++ style guide boils down to "we would seriously prefer to you use the subset of C++98 that looks kind of like Java, and maybe at most the bits of C++11 that everyone imported from boost headers and which required no library support") |
| 15:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Single-shot here meaning you can only fulfill them once. |
| 15:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | You can deref them as many times as you like, but it is an error to call (deliver promise val) more than once per promise. |
| 15:56 | <&McMartin> | Ok, yeah |
| 15:56 | <&McMartin> | I'm not 100% clear on the additional restrictions, though it's worth noting std::promise and std::future are both noncopyable. |
| 15:57 | <&McMartin> | Which is not the same as immovable, and C++ is unsurprisingly worse at this than Rust |
| 15:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | AIUI, the way it actually works under the hood is that futures are implemented in terms of promises; (future fn) is (let [p (promise)] (call-in-background-thread #(deliver p (fn))) p) |
| 15:58 | <&McMartin> | One kind of fun thing about C++ promises is that you can have a std::promise<void> and instead of being a single-item concurrent queue, it's a one-shot semaphore. |
| 15:59 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, the idiom I've been seeing in C++ is to do the code you describe as a way of getting a value out of a thread, conditionally, or if multiple callbacks are required. |
| 16:00 | <&McMartin> | ... yeah, it turns out looking at the APi |
| 16:00 | <&McMartin> | This is the only way to use futures |
| 16:00 | <&McMartin> | If you want "Run this function in another thread and I'd like to wait on the result at some other point" |
| 16:00 | <&McMartin> | You have to make the promise and the thread by hand, feed it the function, and have that function deliver on the promise. |
| 16:00 | <&McMartin> | Then you get_future the promise and wait on it. |
| 16:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ick. |
| 16:01 | <&McMartin> | So that's both ugly and (since I'm using asio) exactly not the behavior I want because I'm trying to minimize thread creation thanks |
| 16:02 | <&McMartin> | There is however a std::async |
| 16:02 | <&McMartin> | Which is tied somehow to thread pools? |
| 16:02 | <&McMartin> | And which were redesigned in C++14, which nobody implements or only partially, so whee |
| 16:03 | <&McMartin> | Also implicitly blocking destructors, joyous |
| 16:04 | | * McMartin files that under "don't need to learn that yet, will only consume brain cells better used elsewhere" |
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| 16:19 | < catadroid> | std::async is a little simplistic |
| 16:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | std::async is for nonblocking io, yes? |
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| 16:44 | < catadroid`> | std::async is for scheduling tasks in a scalable manner, hopefully agnostic of your machine architecture |
| 16:44 | < catadroid`> | iirc the thing they added was a nicer futures implementation |
| 16:45 | < catadroid`> | incidentally, I just realised that I can explain what ->* does in a succinct and understandable manner |
| 16:55 | < abudhabi> | So, about those EM drives. They sound cool! |
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| 17:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | abudhabi: if they work. |
| 17:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | As usual, the latest publication is "we looked at the methodology really hard and didn't find any problems" and the reporting on it is "HOLY FUCK WE HAVE WARP DRIVES" |
| 17:04 | < abudhabi> | Yeah, I'm getting a lot of "they do work" and "they can't work". |
| 17:06 | < catadroid`> | 'they haven't yet been proven not to work in principle' |
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| 17:06 | <@celticminstrel> | EM drives? |
| 17:08 | <@gnolam> | An attempt to check off the entire pathological science checklist. |
| 17:08 | <@gnolam> | Complete with nonsense physics and shitty science reporting. |
| 17:08 | <@celticminstrel> | ? |
| 17:12 | < ErikMesoy> | catadroid: Yes they have. 2LOT. |
| 17:12 | <@gnolam> | celticminstrel: a reactionless drive, relying on "quantum vacuum plasma". |
| 17:13 | < ErikMesoy> | Going faster than light looks impractical but theoretically possible; violating the 2LOT to get free thrust, as this drive allegedly does, doesn't even look theoretically possible. |
| 17:13 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, I remember hearing about that. |
| 17:13 | <@gnolam> | Which gets a shitton of hype despite a) violating the law of conservation of momentum and b) that /there is no such thing as a "quantum vacuum plasma"/. |
| 17:13 | <@celticminstrel> | The reports seemed to say that while it does produce thrust, it's a very tiny thrust. |
| 17:13 | <@celticminstrel> | So I dunno. |
| 17:15 | <@gnolam> | You produce a very tiny amount of thrust by just radiating anisotropically. |
| 17:20 | <@celticminstrel> | Unrelatedly, I am vaguely annoyed by the fact that my pasteboard manager and GIMP do not get along. |
| 17:25 | <&McMartin> | I thought the purported warp drive was not the EM drive but one of the other things that doesn't work |
| 17:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: yes, but :sciencereporting: |
| 17:29 | < abudhabi> | :reporting: |
| 17:29 | <@celticminstrel> | What does EM stand for here? |
| 17:30 | < abudhabi> | (I don't think science reporting is particularly worse than other types of reporting. It's just that you only manage to see the bullshit if you are familiar with the subject matter. If you aren't, well, it sounds plausible.) |
| 17:30 | <@celticminstrel> | Electromagnetic doesn't seem to fit. |
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| 17:32 | < ErikMesoy> | I remember being reported on for my participation in the Abel Memorial Mathematical Olympiad, and I told the journalist a lemma. What got printed was sort of vaguely similar in that it involved numbers and "Let N be a number". |
| 17:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: it stands for electromagnetic, because all the proposed mechanisms of action that aren't meaningless word salad depend on either electromagnetic radiation emission or wacky magnetic field interactions. |
| 17:32 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 17:33 | <@celticminstrel> | "Wacky magnetic field interactions" makes me think of solar flares. |
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| 17:35 | < ErikMesoy> | I was fourteen and autistic and sincerely thought that the general public might be interested in my lemma. In retrospect it's a wonder the journalist even tried to print it. Would probably have been better off not doing so since the resulting number salad probably interested no one at all. |
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| 17:37 | < catadroid> | :< |
| 17:38 | | * catadroid has been discovering that she really doesn't think in the same way most people do and appears to have been oblivious |
| 17:38 | < catadroid> | However, this does make me a very good programmer so I suppose that's cool |
| 17:40 | | Meatyhandbag [sebastianfe@Nightstar-fit.ukq.53.184.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 17:41 | | * McMartin has a pretty strong functional accent |
| 17:42 | <@Alek> | how many color bits does the old safe mode use anyway? |
| 17:43 | < abudhabi> | IIRC, it allowed 16-color mode. |
| 17:43 | <@Alek> | ty |
| 17:43 | <&McMartin> | VESA is 640x480x256, 24-bit color' |
| 17:43 | <&McMartin> | IIRC |
| 17:43 | | gizmore [kvirc@Nightstar-18qenh.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [[NS] Quit: KVIrc 4.3.1 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] |
| 17:45 | <&McMartin> | VESA BIOS Extensions apparently go all the way up, looking at it, but I have never seen it so used, I don't think. |
| 17:46 | <@celticminstrel> | Blargh. I should probably write some more test-cases today. |
| 17:47 | < abudhabi> | I'm almost sure it downgraded my color amount when I used it from a 256 normal mode, back in the day. |
| 17:48 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, the question is how far back "the day" is |
| 17:48 | < abudhabi> | Win95. |
| 17:48 | <&McMartin> | VBE is from 1994 but it requires both BIOS, videocard, and (I think) motherboard support |
| 17:48 | <&McMartin> | Win95 would definitely be 16-color |
| 18:07 | | Kindamoody|autojoin is now known as Kindamoody |
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| 18:52 | | mode/#code [+o Thalass] by ChanServ |
| 18:56 | <&McMartin> | Belated: the issue I had in C++ forward declaration + templates may have been "was not using the inline keyword" |
| 18:57 | <&McMartin> | Which plays subtle silly buggers with template instantiation and linking |
| 19:03 | <&jerith> | catadroid: One of the things that makes me a good programmer is that I really can't keep much state in my head. |
| 19:04 | <&jerith> | So I tend to localise complexity as much as possible so I can see all the bits in front of me and I don't have to keep them in my head. |
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| 20:41 | | catadroid [catalyst@Nightstar-i3qgoj.dab.02.net] has quit [A TLS packet with unexpected length was received.] |
| 21:16 | < abudhabi> | TheWatcher: {@:1} doesn't seem to give up all the non-script-name parameters for some reason. |
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| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | Heh. From the Twittermachines |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | "Always wanted to travel back in time to try fighting a younger version of yourself? Software development is the career for you!" |
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| 22:28 | <@celticminstrel> | XD |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jul 30 00:00:16 2015 |