| --- Log opened Mon Jul 27 00:00:31 2015 |
| 00:02 | <~Vornicus> | I'm not sure I want to know how that would actually sound |
| 00:02 | <@celticminstrel> | I think I missed two bytes of padding. |
| 00:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Which makes it 16-bit instead. Much more sensible. |
| 00:03 | <@celticminstrel> | There's been no padding for 32-bit integers, but maybe 80-bit floating-point numbers require 4-byte alignment. |
| 00:04 | <@celticminstrel> | This almost works. It can convert standard type 1 sounds as well as type 2 sounds, but I'm not sure what I'm missing for "compressed" type 1 sounds (which apparently includes uncompressed 16-bit data?). |
| 00:06 | <@celticminstrel> | For the specific file I'm testing on it seems to ignore 56 bytes of data. Maybe I just miscalculate the data size. I'm doing numFrames*numChannels*bitsPerSample/8. |
| 00:08 | <@macdjord|out> | Vornicus: At a sufficiently high sampling frequency, probably not that bad. I once heard a demonstation that explained that it is sampling frquency, not sample size, which really matteres; it compared a 32-bit sample at a preposterously low hz against a /1-bit/ sample at normal frequency, and the 1-bit audio was rough and staticky but understandable while the low-frequncey audio was noise. |
| 00:08 | <@celticminstrel> | The sampling frequencies here are <25000Hz. |
| 00:08 | <~Vornicus> | phone audio is 3kHz, 8-bit |
| 00:09 | <@macdjord|out> | celticminstrel: I di not know wbough about audio to know how good that is. |
| 00:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, CD audio is what, 44100Hz? |
| 00:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Did I miss a 0? |
| 00:09 | <~Vornicus> | 44kHz, 16bit, stereo |
| 00:09 | <~Vornicus> | 60 times more data, or so, then phone |
| 00:10 | <@celticminstrel> | This one seems to be 16-bit mono. |
| 00:10 | <@celticminstrel> | Does my calculation look right? |
| 00:10 | <@celticminstrel> | I tried byte-swapping it as well. that didn't help. |
| 00:11 | <~Vornicus> | 16bit mono at 22kHz is pretty common |
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| 00:12 | <~Vornicus> | Especially for - am I right in thinking this is sound files from Exile? - the 90s |
| 00:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Yes, it is. |
| 00:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Sound resources. |
| 00:13 | <@celticminstrel> | Most of them are 8-bit mono, though. |
| 00:14 | <@celticminstrel> | At 11 or 22 KHz. |
| 00:14 | <@celticminstrel> | ^kHz |
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| 00:46 | <@thalass> | Augh I can never have a smooth time when I try and build from source. Even with dependency grabbing scripts there are still errors. >.< |
| 00:52 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh... do I need to worry about whether it's signed or unsigned 16-bit PCM? |
| 00:54 | <@celticminstrel> | Does the WAVE format make assumptions about the signedness of the data? |
| 00:55 | <@celticminstrel> | It must do so, right? Since I don't see any way for it to specify the signedness. |
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| 02:03 | <@celticminstrel> | Still at a loss as to why this doesn't work. |
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| 02:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Hm. Based on my reading of the header, an unused field has a nonzero value. That's suspicious. |
| 02:47 | <@celticminstrel> | More suspicious things. This reading of the header gives the sample rate an exponent of 0. It seems extremely unlikely that 22254.5453949 would be stored as a denormal number. |
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| 07:37 | <@Alek> | I've been wondering. Are there any FPS games that play non-euclidean tricks with the map? Well, other than the nightmare sections of the Arkham games, F.E.A.R., and Max Payne, Serious Sam's and Dead Space variable-direction gravity, and assorted portals. |
| 07:38 | <&McMartin> | When you say "assorted portals" are you including places where room connections do not actually work the way they should in Euclidean three-space? |
| 07:38 | <@Alek> | uh, yeah. |
| 07:39 | <&McMartin> | If so, the original Marathon games played some games with that (e.g., west north east south does not take you back to where you started) because all doors were "portals" |
| 07:39 | <&McMartin> | An absolute master class in this in modern games, though, I think, is Antichamber. |
| 07:39 | <&McMartin> | You can find the seams if you look - there's at least one puzzle that is balanced around you having already decided to break the game in half and catch it cheating - but you never *have* to. |
| 07:40 | <&McMartin> | (Bias alert: I loved the shit out of Antichamber() |
| 07:40 | <@Alek> | couple ideas that come to mind are more than 360 degrees of rotation, and overlaid maps, where which one you are interacting with depends on which way you're facing. |
| 07:40 | | * Alek is specifically thinking of first-person games. |
| 07:40 | <&McMartin> | Antichamber absolutely does the latter, as well as maintaining map consistency only while you look at it. |
| 07:40 | <&McMartin> | Antichamber is first-person. |
| 07:40 | <@Alek> | I'll have to grab that when I can, then. |
| 07:41 | <&McMartin> | You may have gotten it by accident in one of several Humble Bundles, if you buy them carelessly~ |
| 07:41 | <@Alek> | nope, sadly. |
| 07:42 | <&McMartin> | Technically meeting your criteria are some of the more bullshit dungeon levels in the Wizardry and Bard's Tale games. |
| 07:44 | | * Alek snerks. |
| 07:46 | <@Alek> | not really what I was looking for, but sure. |
| 07:46 | <&McMartin> | Some of the Antichamber tricks are technically, once reverse-engineered, those bullshit tricks, but for me at least it got away with it way better. |
| 07:47 | | * Alek ponders. just how difficult would it be to make a FPS physics engine supporting non-euclidean physics without seams and faking it? |
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| 07:47 | <&McMartin> | I would say you're intrinsically faking it regardless |
| 07:48 | <&McMartin> | FPS implies that any screenshot *looks* like 3D Euclidean |
| 07:48 | <&McMartin> | Mmm. |
| 07:48 | <&McMartin> | Come to think of it |
| 07:48 | <&McMartin> | Marathon didn't have seams. |
| 07:48 | <&McMartin> | Each portal was two way |
| 07:48 | <@Alek> | well, yes, but generally you're faking it by using hacks. |
| 07:49 | <&McMartin> | But there was no sense of *absolute location* |
| 07:49 | <&McMartin> | You can shoehorn it into absolute location by making each door be a two-way teleporter |
| 07:49 | <&McMartin> | So in some sense there are only seams the way every nav mesh is made of seams. |
| 07:49 | <@Alek> | and as for visuals, sure, they're euclidean - but that's the perception. moving around, otoh, would be action and tend to reveal the non-euclidean nature of the world, in what I'm thinking of. |
| 07:50 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure what that would look like even as a mathematical specification. |
| 07:50 | <@Alek> | your character is parsing what he sees into a "3D" image for you, but when he turns in a full circle, he takes in a 1080 degree panorama... for example. |
| 07:51 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 07:51 | <&McMartin> | So |
| 07:51 | <&McMartin> | What does that mean when you "go forward" |
| 07:51 | <&McMartin> | And how is that not "you're turning more slowly", etc |
| 07:51 | <&McMartin> | This isn't a challenge |
| 07:51 | < ErikMesoy> | Here's one that I think is fairly straightforward to specify: "The further in X direction you are, the faster you move and the longer your weapon ranges are." |
| 07:51 | <&McMartin> | This is "these are questions I don't know how to answer" |
| 07:51 | < ErikMesoy> | This represents space being more compressed in X direction. |
| 07:52 | < ErikMesoy> | Moving X, north, antiX, south, will leave you north of where you started. |
| 07:52 | | * McMartin nods |
| 07:52 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure if that counts as Non-Euclidean as he intends though - that might "merely" be transformed Euclidean. |
| 07:53 | <&McMartin> | But I don't know if that excludes *literally everything* |
| 07:53 | <@Alek> | it does sound intriguing, and I may be misusing the term anyway. |
| 07:53 | <&McMartin> | It's an interesting design space. I know little of how to make it work |
| 07:54 | < ErikMesoy> | "X direction" can be further arbitrarily complicated to refer to certain large rooms squeezed into small space, being within a certain radius of objects, being outside a certain radius of objects, etc. |
| 07:54 | <&McMartin> | But compression makes me think of the Lorentz transform |
| 07:54 | <&McMartin> | And thus, non-Euclid by way of Einstein. |
| 07:54 | <&McMartin> | I don't know of any games where Special Relativity is a legit thing that you simulate in realtime |
| 07:54 | <&McMartin> | That could be amazing, or maybe just incomprehensible. No idea. |
| 07:55 | <@Alek> | another idea I've had is maps that take up the same space, but the joins between them are only visible and traversable in certain points. |
| 07:55 | <&McMartin> | That's arguably the Marathon case. |
| 07:55 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog will know that one better than I. |
| 07:56 | <&McMartin> | (I learned of it in the first place from him) |
| 07:56 | <@Alek> | hmm. |
| 07:57 | <@Alek> | I'm fast passing the point where I'm sleepy enough to talk about this, and reaching the point where I'm so sleepy I should be in bed already. sorry. |
| 07:57 | <@Alek> | good night. |
| 07:57 | <@Alek> | and thank you. |
| 07:57 | < ErikMesoy> | Alek: Do you have even the tiniest bit of intent of sticking to the mathematical definition of non-euclidean geometry as that which does not obey Euclid's parallell postulate? :P |
| 07:57 | < ErikMesoy> | Or do you just mean "funny space geometry things"? ;) |
| 07:57 | <@Alek> | yes. :P |
| 07:57 | <&McMartin> | He means the latter. |
| 07:58 | <@Alek> | mostly the latter, actually. |
| 07:58 | <&McMartin> | I've got an easy example for the former: Kerbal Space Program is all about the elliptical geometries of orbits. |
| 07:59 | <@Alek> | I remember being impressed with Serious Sam Second Encounter's portal cube (in its demo) and its various variable-directional-gravity and rotating rooms. |
| 08:00 | <&McMartin> | I haven't played much Serious Sam tbh |
| 08:00 | <&McMartin> | But I've read fun analyses of it |
| 08:00 | <@Alek> | if you like shooters, the first and second encounters are great fun. |
| 08:00 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I'm not much for them, overall. I'm more a platformer and puzzler. |
| 08:01 | <&McMartin> | Cloudbuilt, Super Meat Boy, La-Mulana, etc. |
| 08:01 | <@Alek> | serious sam 2 I haven't played yet, but it looked very different. and the third is back to classic "urban shooter", from the few levels I've played of it so far. |
| 08:02 | <@Alek> | I do remember the first and second encounters having a few puzzles. |
| 08:02 | <&McMartin> | http://www.wurb.com/stack/archives/60 and http://www.wurb.com/stack/archives/62 were both good reads |
| 08:03 | <&McMartin> | This guy has been working in the adventure game space for over a decade now, so his insights in interaction design are helpful for me |
| 08:03 | <&McMartin> | One takeaway I took from this is that being properly big, loud, and dumb requires you to actually be very smart or things just fall apart |
| 08:04 | <&McMartin> | (He also wrote my single favorite text adventure, "The Gostak".) |
| 08:05 | <@Alek> | yup, good reads. |
| 08:06 | <&McMartin> | (In The Gostak, you are the Gostak, pelled from the bewl to distim the doshes, but the lutt to the doshery is crenned with glauds) |
| 08:06 | <&McMartin> | (The whole game is in this constructed language and the primary puzzle is deciphering enough of it to interact with the game properly.) |
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| 12:40 | | * ToxicFrog upreads |
| 12:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Alek, McMartin: relativity: there's actually a recent game (Speed of Light, I think?) that simulates lightspeed as being a finite value not that much faster than your runspeed, so you do get quite dramatic relativistic effects. |
| 12:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Re: Marathon: it's not quiiiiite "all doors are portals"; the map is a set of polygons, each one with a floor and ceiling height. Any polygon is shares an edge with it's connected to. |
| 12:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | Critically, only polygons it shares an edge with are connected to it; other polygons overlapping it are distinct spaces! |
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| 12:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | The devs called this "5-d space" (it's a 2.5d game, so 2*2.5), and in fact there's a deathmatch level of that name that consists of two "layers" connected up via hallways, so you can be standing right next to someone but be unable to interact with them in any way. |
| 12:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | On the technical side, this is how they implemented room-over-room, most famously in the tower level The Hard Stuff Rules |
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| 12:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | But it was also used for things like spaces where when you enter by the lower door it's a large hangar space and when you enter by the upper door, which should come out halfway up the hangar wall, you instead find yourself in a narrow hallway. |
| 12:58 | < catadroid> | Now, you're thinking with portals |
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| 14:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | catadroid`: yeah, except here it's inherent to the map format and kind of easy to do by accident~ |
| 14:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm pretty sure that at least some of the impossible geometry in Marathon is there because the mapper just wasn't paying attention when they accidentally made three rooms occupy the same space. |
| 14:21 | < catadroid`> | :D |
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| 14:21 | < catadroid> | there's some early Unreal maps that make good use of impossible geometry |
| 14:21 | < catadroid> | but then they stopped doing that kind of thing :( |
| 14:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aaw |
| 14:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | I remember my mind being blown when I played Wheel of Time, it was the first game I played that used Unreal's portal capabilities and the first 3d game I'd played that had portals at all. |
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| 17:05 | <@gnolam> | https://twitter.com/Loh/status/411282297816498176 |
| 17:07 | <@froztbyte> | gnolam: hahaha |
| 17:55 | <@celticminstrel> | ...argh. I accidentally erased my working copy changs. |
| 18:00 | <@celticminstrel> | ^+e |
| 18:02 | <@celticminstrel> | I think I remembered most of them. Not all, but the others will probably come up when I write tests. |
| 18:02 | <@celticminstrel> | ...which I keep putting off, because it's so boring and tedious. :( |
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| 18:38 | <@Alek> | Toxic, Wheel of Time? based on the books? or unrelated? |
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| 18:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | Alek: yes, based on the books; there was an FPS released using the Unreal Engine, set some centuries before the books. |
| 18:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | It was actually quite good. |
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| 21:19 | <@Alek> | huh. I'm curious now. |
| 21:20 | | * McMartin declares a C++ type that is 77 characters long, has a sad. |
| 21:20 | | * McMartin reworks it to be a chain of typedefs, at least. |
| 21:33 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, how would I use ImageMagick to adjust the gamma of an image from a known source value to a known destination value? |
| 21:34 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh hmm. I might've figured it out. Let me try this. |
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| 23:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | Only 77? |
| 23:46 | <&McMartin> | I'm discounting typedefs from inside the standard library |
| 23:46 | <&McMartin> | Otherwise, yeah, you routinely crack a full kilobyte |
| --- Log closed Tue Jul 28 00:00:46 2015 |