| --- Log opened Sat Dec 27 00:00:54 2014 |
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| 05:29 | <@macdjord> | simon_: Do you want to get your favorite charity investigated as a drug front? |
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| 05:56 | | * celticminstrel writes an std::accumulate function, then realizes that std::count_if is in fact more suitable here. |
| 06:00 | <@Alek> | of course! who doesn't? |
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| --- Log opened Sat Dec 27 12:09:45 2014 |
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| --- Log opened Sat Dec 27 12:17:26 2014 |
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| 17:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Is it silly to have a plain array whose element type is an std::array? |
| 18:17 | <&McMartin> | It feels a little bit dodgy unless there's a very specific need for it like a C interface that expects an array of void *s. |
| 18:22 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, I wanted to be able to treat the inner array as an STL container but had no need to do the same for the outer array. |
| 18:22 | <@celticminstrel> | It might later be changed to vector. |
| 18:24 | <&McMartin> | It's better to be STL all the way down |
| 18:24 | <&McMartin> | As a rule when writing C++ these days it's better to only use C-style things when forced |
| 18:24 | <@celticminstrel> | So then, an std::array of std::arrays. |
| 18:24 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 18:24 | <@celticminstrel> | Which might later be changed to an std::array of std::vectors. |
| 18:25 | <@celticminstrel> | (There's no reason for the outer array to be dynamically sized since it's indexed by a "treasure type index".) |
| 18:26 | <@celticminstrel> | I've been slowly replacing the C-style arrays with C++ stuff. |
| 20:02 | <@Tarinaky> | What's the reasoning behind this now? |
| 20:03 | <@celticminstrel> | Behind which? |
| 20:04 | <@Tarinaky> | It being better to use the STL all the way down |
| 20:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 20:04 | <@Tarinaky> | Rather than C-Arrays |
| 20:04 | <@Tarinaky> | Or should that be all the way up? |
| 20:04 | | * celticminstrel does think C-arrays make more sense for constant static data, though. |
| 20:06 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 20:06 | <@Tarinaky> | I've been using the STL for objects and methods, and C-style constructs for the functional and imperative bits. Because I have no idea what I'm doing. |
| 20:06 | <@Tarinaky> | *objects and attributes |
| 20:06 | <@celticminstrel> | Using arrays as a function parameter is generally not a great idea. |
| 20:07 | <@celticminstrel> | Because it's not really an array anymore. |
| 20:08 | <@Tarinaky> | Ehh, I've not really been bitten in the bum by that. |
| 20:08 | <@Tarinaky> | I mean, as long as you're not making shallow copies all over the place. |
| 20:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Uh, what? |
| 20:09 | <@Tarinaky> | Why are using arrays/pointers as function parameters a bad idea? |
| 20:10 | <@celticminstrel> | It's more just that using an array as a function parameter is misleading, since it's actually just a pointer and doesn't know its size. |
| 20:11 | <@celticminstrel> | (If it's a reference to an array, though, it does remember3 its size.) |
| 20:11 | <@celticminstrel> | ^-3 |
| 20:12 | <@Tarinaky> | So what? |
| 20:13 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't see how that's misleading... |
| 20:13 | <@celticminstrel> | It's not an array. It's a pointer. |
| 20:14 | <@Tarinaky> | 'So'? |
| 20:14 | <@celticminstrel> | So, declaring it as an array is misleading. |
| 20:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm... not really sure I follow that... |
| 20:17 | <@Tarinaky> | The array is passed by pointer (the fact that it /is/ a pointer is just an implementation detail from using a compiler 2 iterations above programming by banging flint against UFO-sized disk platters) |
| 20:17 | <@Tarinaky> | There is an array. |
| 20:18 | <@celticminstrel> | Eh. |
| 20:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: the array decays into a pointer to the first element of the array and the size must be passed separately, unlike std::vector and std::array which have the size built in. |
| 20:23 | <@celticminstrel> | Native array types also have the size built in. |
| 20:23 | <@Tarinaky> | Well yes, but I don't see that as being a /problem/ |
| 20:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | As for the more general "why use STL everywhere": because unless you're interoperating with C code, the STL types give you more features and more safety, and you get various things for free like iterators and fold. |
| 20:24 | <@celticminstrel> | What's fold, again? |
| 20:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | It also means you don't need to worry about mixing memory allocation types or things not been properly destroyed on exception or the like. |
| 20:25 | <@Tarinaky> | OOO, we have folds? |
| 20:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: aka reduce, although I think C++ calls it std::accumulate |
| 20:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah, right. |
| 20:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Tarinaky: In <numeric> |
| 20:25 | <@Tarinaky> | I'll have to check that out at work on monday. |
| 20:25 | <@celticminstrel> | But, you can also use it on bare arrays. |
| 20:26 | <@celticminstrel> | Like all the STL algorithms. |
| 20:26 | <@Tarinaky> | I... don't think anyone uses C++ for anything that doesn't interoperate with C code. |
| 20:26 | <@celticminstrel> | WHY NOT? |
| 20:26 | <@celticminstrel> | Whoops, somehow my caps lock went on. |
| 20:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Because there are nicer programming languages. |
| 20:27 | <@Tarinaky> | We may not be able to agree on what those are, but we can agree that there are nicer programming languages than C++ :P |
| 20:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: in my previous job I was working on a high-performance embedded OS written entirely in C++. |
| 20:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | In my current one large chunks of the serving stack are written entirely in C++ for performance reasons. |
| 20:27 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: Presumably you had to interoperate with assembly though? |
| 20:28 | <@Tarinaky> | For the OS. |
| 20:30 | <@Tarinaky> | Unless I'm misremembering something, the asm keyword is part of the C subset :P |
| 20:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | Don't be wilfully dense. |
| 20:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you're using a language other than C++, this entire conversation is irrelevant, because the question is "why prefer using the C++ STL exclusively to a mix of C++ and C types" |
| 20:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you are using C++, even in programs which interoperate with C libraries at some point -- which is not in fact "all C++ programs ever written" -- there's still going be lots of code that doesn't, and even in places where it does talk to C you can often still use an STL type and generate the C type as needed, e.g. std::string::c_str |
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| --- Log closed Sun Dec 28 00:00:04 2014 |