| --- Log opened Mon Dec 08 00:00:53 2014 |
| 00:07 | <@celticminstrel> | Hm. |
| 00:08 | | * celticminstrel needs a transcript message to indicate a monster gaining morale. |
| 00:09 | <&McMartin> | I assume you want something more in-fiction than HoMM's "High morale allows the ${unit_name} to attack again" |
| 00:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Probably a good idea, yes. |
| 00:10 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh hey, HoMM. |
| 00:10 | | * celticminstrel got #3 from GoG at some point. |
| 00:12 | | * celticminstrel will go with "%s is encouraged" unless something better is suggested. |
| 00:13 | | * celticminstrel doesn't actually have a %s in it, that was just an easy way of indicating where the name goes... as if it wasn't obvious. |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | How about "%s rallies"? |
| 00:18 | <@celticminstrel> | Hm, I like that one. |
| 00:19 | <@Reiv> | %s regains courage |
| 00:19 | <@Reiv> | (Or gains, perhaps) |
| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | I think rallying might be the thing you do to lose morale penalties, but then it also means "race" and "everyone going to the same spot" |
| 00:21 | | Alek [omegaboot@Nightstar-c8t.a00.36.73.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:25 | | Alek [omegaboot@Nightstar-c8t.a00.36.73.IP] has joined #code |
| 00:25 | | mode/#code [+o Alek] by ChanServ |
| 00:26 | | * McMartin plays some Vanguard. |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | This looks a lot more like an Atari 2600 game but it feels if anything even less like one than Solaris. |
| 01:18 | <@celticminstrel> | I wonder, am I the only person who does things like "if(...) {blah} else for(...)/switch(...)/try {blah} where bothe {blah} have the same indentation level? |
| 01:27 | <&McMartin> | Not the only person, but I frown on doing so when it isn't else if |
| 01:29 | <@Alek> | wait, you can see a 250GB game? how? where? |
| 01:45 | <@Reiv> | 250, no. |
| 01:45 | <@Reiv> | But Wolfenstein: New Order apparently asks for 50GB |
| 01:48 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 01:53 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm confused at how there seem to be two variables that mean the same thing... |
| 01:55 | <@celticminstrel> | One of which also looks like it means the same thing as a different variable (and even has the same name - it's in a different class). |
| 01:56 | <@celticminstrel> | What on earth is going on here! |
| 01:57 | <~Vornicus> | "I can see this as plausible" |
| 01:58 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, now I found a place where they're both identically modified in parallel. (The first two, that is.) I feel like that lends credence to the theory that they're the same thing. |
| 01:59 | <@celticminstrel> | ...but just a bit later, they're both assigned to different places. |
| 01:59 | <@celticminstrel> | GAH. |
| 01:59 | <@celticminstrel> | WHAT IS THIS. |
| 02:02 | <~Vornicus> | Still Exile source? |
| 02:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah. |
| 02:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: re: total cost: my point is that a 128GB one is like 10-20% more expensive for twice the capacity. |
| 02:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | And is actually useful. |
| 02:26 | <@Reiv> | ToxicFrog: Right, and I was agreeing with you |
| 02:26 | <@Reiv> | Whilst cautioning that while the sweetspot might be, eg, 512 (I don't know, but you get my point), that may not have been a driving motivation |
| 02:27 | <@celticminstrel> | ... I feel like calling std::count three times in a row is a bad idea. Even if I don't expect large sizes. |
| 02:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: at least here, anything 128GB and up has basically the same cost efficiency |
| 02:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | So the main thing is if you get less than 128GB (a) you are getting ripped off and (b) you can't do much with it anyways |
| 02:29 | <@Reiv> | aha, right |
| 02:29 | <@Reiv> | I am going to have to hit you guys up for advice on the Glory PC one of these days aren't I |
| 02:34 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-6i5vf7.sta.comporium.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Program Shutting down] |
| 02:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: TBH, my approach is to use the Tom's Hardware Best {GPU,CPU} For The Money articles as a starting point and build the rest around that~ |
| 02:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Although at this point there's no real building going on, since we're just upgrading existing systems. |
| 02:39 | <@Reiv> | Man |
| 02:39 | <@Reiv> | Are we at the mysterious point in the future where simply upgrading systems is actually a thing that works~ |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | It was when I upgraded Astatine |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | It's because I went from 2009 tech to 2014 tech though |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | Which meant that power requirements *dropped* instead of increasing |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | However, it's at a limit here |
| 02:41 | <@Reiv> | huh. |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | If I want to upgrade it again I'll have to also upgrade the motherboard, and I'm pretty comfortable saying "at this point you are building a whole new system" |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | PCIe and chip sockets both have new editions since Astatine was built. |
| 02:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: we've been at that point for, um, ten years at least |
| 02:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | Modulo new CPU sockets and stuff coming out which have been an issue forever and will continue to be for the forseeable future |
| 02:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | But yes, in this case Durandal and Quetzalcoatl both have AM3+ sockets and PCIe, so Durandal goes from a Phenom II to an FX and gains an SSD and Quetzalcoatl gets a major GPU upgrade |
| 02:43 | | * McMartin nods |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | So, the issue with Astatine is that it predates Haswell and PCIe 3.0 |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | Which means the opportunity for further upgrades that are not, like, drive bays are quite limited |
| 02:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Haswell? |
| 02:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Intel CPU architecture, I assume? |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, and one that changes the socketing type because of what it needs to do to the busses, IIRC |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | I also lack USB 3.0 on Astatine |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | And even the GPU apparently is going into some not-as-good mode to be able to communicate with the bus on this motherboard, though it certainly does Well Enough. |
| 02:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | One of the reasons we went with AM3+ for these is forward compatibility; we had older AM3 processors at the time, but AM3+ is compatible with the at-the-time-unreleased Vishera chips with a bios update |
| 02:48 | | * ToxicFrog nods |
| 02:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Durandal is apparently also PCIe 2.0, although I haven't noticed any issues from this |
| 02:49 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I get the impression this only matters if you are Being Netflix or Being Pixar. |
| 02:49 | <&McMartin> | But lack of USB3.0 has in fact been a pain point wrt to running external backups and such. |
| 02:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | All of our backups happen over the network are are limited by the 100MBit connection to Orias, so |
| 02:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | *and are |
| 02:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | All USB gets used for here in these parts is boot media and HID. |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | I back stuff up across machines over the internal network, but I also have multi-terabyte external drives. |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | Pulling stuff from or pushing stuff to those hurts a lot. |
| 02:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. Yes. |
| 02:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | Orias does in fact have an external 4x2TB array, but talks to it over eSATA. |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | USB2.0 is in fact the fastest option Astatine has. |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | So that is unfortunate. |
| 02:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | I think USB3 is nominally faster, but I found eSATA more reliable. |
| 02:52 | | * McMartin reads about Intel chip mechanisms |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | OK, I think I understand this |
| 02:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | (faster than 3Gbps SATA, anyways, which I think is all this eSATA controller supports) |
| 02:53 | <&McMartin> | Every other chip release from Intel is just shrinking the previous one; that previous one is a new microarchitecture that usually results in a new socket and maybe additional motherboard support as well |
| 02:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | That sounds easier to keep track of than AMD's, honestly~ |
| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | So haswell's chip type will be going away in 2015 when broadwell's successor comes out. |
| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | Broadwell being the shrunken Haswell. |
| 02:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | The next upgrade for the computers of the house is probably a new Orias, but I want something relatively small and finding the bits for a small PC that can still fit the eSATA controller card and two hard drives and a case for it that doesn't look like ass has proven kind of problematic |
| 02:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | Especially since all the small AMD boards are for APUs and it doesn't really need or want a video card |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | Astatine is Sandy Bridge, which is the unshrunken Ivy Bridge, which is the cycle before Haswell. |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | IIRC, Osmium (and thus Thoth) is an early-era Ivy Bridge. |
| 02:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | I believe so, yes. |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | ... I take it back. |
| 02:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm considering looking into Intel chips for the new Orias, but I don't know much about them. |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | Astatine is a Nehelem, which is the cycle before *that*. |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | And unshrunken. |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | Prior to Nehelem they were actually still calling the damn things "Pentiums". |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | Er, wait, no |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | Or maybe |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | OK, Nehelem is where this cycle of two starts really going |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | They apparently call it a "tick-tock" system |
| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | Here we go, charts |
| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Tick-Tock |
| 03:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | (seriously, why is so hard to find small, boxy, aesthetically pleasing miniITX or uATX cases) |
| 03:16 | | * ToxicFrog ponders. New orias needs to be (a) quiet, (b) physically compact, (c) have at least four cores and 8GB of memory, (d) have room for two internal hard drives and (e) have either onboard port multiplied eSATA or room for a PCIe expansion card. |
| 03:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | a-c imply that I want some kind of off the shelf microPC, but d and e are incompatible with that. |
| 03:16 | <@Reiv> | Is this a game rig or a home server |
| 03:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Server |
| 03:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Note the lack of a video card requirement |
| 03:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...oh, and a serial port is not mandatory but would be very nice to have. |
| 03:17 | <@Reiv> | Yeah, I was just querying the lack |
| 03:17 | <@Reiv> | ... serial port? |
| 03:17 | <@Reiv> | Whatever for |
| 03:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: so that I don't need to haul out a monitor to the network closet every time I need to do at-keyboard maintenance to it |
| 03:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which is thankfully rare but does happen from time to time |
| 03:18 | <@Reiv> | The serial port would negate this? |
| 03:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | You can get tiny single-port terminal servers that attach to a serial port on one end and cat5 on the other. |
| 03:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | Telnet into them and you get the output of the serial port. |
| 03:20 | <@Reiv> | oh, cute |
| 03:21 | <@Reiv> | And the serial port would be feeding you monitor data? |
| 03:21 | <@Reiv> | I mean, I think my main confusion here is "What good is a serial port these days anyway" |
| 03:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Linux can drive a serial port just as easily as a monitor in text mode |
| 03:22 | <@Reiv> | ah/hah/ |
| 03:22 | <@Reiv> | OK then carry on |
| 03:23 | <@Reiv> | It sounds like to set up my house the Way I Want It (Which is dangerously close to, uh, how you're rigging yours) is going to require becoming a pro at Linux first. >_> |
| 03:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's not that hard~ |
| 03:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | That said, I still don't have a good solution for music. |
| 03:25 | <@Reiv> | He says to someone that's bounced off Linux fully three times now~ |
| 03:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | At my parents' house we used slimp3, but slimp3d is unmaintained and a complete arse to get running on anything released in the last five years |
| 03:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | We may end up getting something Sonos-like and just serving the music over SMB, similar to what we're doing for video already |
| 03:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | (except the video is getting served to VLC via a custom frontend running on the gaming machines) |
| 03:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | (rather than to dedicated video playing hardware) |
| 03:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: so, my understanding is that you can do most of all of this with windows, if you're willing to pay for the licenses; I just have no idea how and no desire to learn. |
| 03:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | *most or all |
| 03:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you do want to have another go at Linux, I'd be glad to help, and it's not at all difficult to initiate a VirtualBox VM so you can experiment with it without needing actual hardware. |
| 03:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | (That said, I found actual hardware invaluable; Orias was originally created when I scavenged an old free PC and set it up as a file and development server because I was sick of dual-booting) |
| 03:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | (but at that point I'd already been using Linux for years) |
| 03:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: what were you using it for before, and how did you bounce off? |
| 03:38 | <@Reiv> | hm |
| 03:38 | <@Reiv> | I've used it in several renditions to date |
| 03:38 | <@Reiv> | I had a linux box back when I was doing compsci at university; I got it working and it functioned as a dev machine, but I never found anything useful to do with it. |
| 03:39 | <@Reiv> | I've since worked in text terminals for config (for Nightstar, among others) |
| 03:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...but you had it working as a dev machine. Surely it was useful for developing software? |
| 03:39 | <@Reiv> | "Doing my homework" |
| 03:39 | <@Reiv> | "Whilst switching the KVM back to windows any time I wanted to change my music, and cursing the machine all the while" |
| 03:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh, you used a KVM? |
| 03:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | ssh, bro. |
| 03:40 | <@Reiv> | Mostly using it because our assingments had to build and run on Fedora, so that's what I was developing it on |
| 03:41 | <@Reiv> | I since played with Ubuntu, but again, hit that magical "Good enough to get it running, not good enough to make it /pleasant/, whilst having the impatience of knowing what I want but not how to do it", etc |
| 03:41 | <@Reiv> | And yeah, I can ask questions, but there end up being a *lot* of questions |
| 03:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | So, for the years when I had both Durandal and Orias but nothing else, Durandal was windows, Orias was linux, but all that actually ran on Durandal was games and Cygwin |
| 03:41 | <@Reiv> | And in the end I sorta just wander off a while. |
| 03:41 | <@Reiv> | Right |
| 03:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | And then Cygwin provided me with an X server, which meant I ran everything else on Orias, and just displayed it on Durandal's desktop |
| 03:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | Much more convenient than using a KVM, since everything is seamless on the same desktop, just most of it is actually running on the linux machine. |
| 03:42 | <@Reiv> | In this case it was "I do everything on Windows except programming, because I can't get the bloody thing to work quite how I'd like it to, and don't really know how I should be rigging things up 'properly' to start with" |
| 03:42 | | * ToxicFrog nods |
| 03:42 | <@Reiv> | Yeah, I've never worked out how to do an Anything with an X terminal beyond "It's there when I turn the computer on" |
| 03:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Part of this is -- I grew up with UNIX and Linux. It's the default for me, and I rely heavily on features like multiple workspaces and X forwarding that are standard on *nix and have been for decades but are either impossible or require a bunch of third-party software on windows. |
| 03:43 | <@Reiv> | My experience with SSH is "Yep, this is a text-based remote session again, time to fiddle with config files [and pray I need do nothing more, because text session text editors are kinda painful to work in]" |
| 03:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | So, the thing with SSH and X is |
| 03:44 | <@Reiv> | Whilst I grew up on DOS, Windows 3.1, and eventually 95/98/2000/XP/7 |
| 03:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | There is no requirement that the machine the program is running on be the same one that it's displayed on |
| 03:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | And SSH has built in support for this |
| 03:44 | <@Reiv> | I comprehend this in principle |
| 03:45 | <@Reiv> | I've never used SSH as anything more than "It's Linux DOS" |
| 03:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | So on the windows side, you go Start->Cygwin->Cygwin X Server, and it thinks for a bit and then the X11 icon appear in the systray and the xterm appears. |
| 03:45 | <@Reiv> | "This time, without a mouse" |
| 03:45 | <@Reiv> | (Granted, not that DOS had a mouse much, ha ha) |
| 03:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Then in the xterm, you do, say, "ssh -X user@computer nautilus" |
| 03:45 | <@Reiv> | (But by golly you get used to it in the interveining decades~) |
| 03:45 | <@Reiv> | Right |
| 03:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | And a file browser pops up showing the files on <computer>. |
| 03:45 | <@Reiv> | Thing is, you can tell me this and it is very nice I am sure |
| 03:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is actually running on the remote machine and displaying on your windows desktop. |
| 03:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Double-click a text file to open it in a graphical editor, etc. |
| 03:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | (Double-click a video file to completely saturate your network connection~) |
| 03:46 | <@Reiv> | But I've never had the skill to get that going, nor the opportunity to use a configured one, and am now at the point of "I would need to learn an awful lot an awful fast so as to avoid getting annoyed with the thing again". |
| 03:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...but...there's basically no setup to be done. |
| 03:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Like, windows side: install Cygwin, make sure to do a full install. Linux side: make sure sshd is enabled when you first install it, or turn it on later if you forgot. |
| 03:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | There, done. |
| 03:47 | <@Reiv> | Let me put it this way: To learn *now* would involve going and finding a machine with a partition so I can put Linux on it. :p |
| 03:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | One of the awesome things about this is that it's built into ssh, you don't need to install a separate RDP server or something -- and everything* has ssh out of the box. |
| 03:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | *except windows |
| 03:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, you'll have to do that anyways if you wanted to build a home server using linux :P |
| 03:48 | <@Reiv> | Correct |
| 03:49 | <@Reiv> | Which means the point I'll have the hardware sitting in front of me, wanting to set up a shiny home server, will be the point I am pondering whether I want to install Linux and then learn how to configure and run the sucker right then and there~ |
| 03:49 | <@Reiv> | In the meantime, the laptop I use 5/7ths of the week has 3 GB on its SSD spare, and I sorta need that for the laptop to run right. >_> |
| 03:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | (that said, just for learning you can just use a VM. Hell, for serving you can just use a VM as long as the host system has the same uptime and connectivity you expect from your server.) |
| 03:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...that's it? Ouch. |
| 03:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | Set it up on your home machine and ssh into it from the laptop, then~ |
| 03:50 | <~Vornicus> | Mahal Reiv other people! You mentioned some time back that I'm supposed to do something to clean the washing machine |
| 03:50 | <@Reiv> | I have a 128GB SSD. |
| 03:50 | <@Reiv> | Vornicus: ... this is #Code, but that's OK |
| 03:50 | <~Vornicus> | this is the wrong channel! |
| 03:50 | <@Reiv> | off you go then :) |
| 03:51 | <@Reiv> | And yeah, this 128GB SSD currently stores my entire life |
| 03:51 | <@Reiv> | I have backups of the importaint bits, because I am Not An Idiot, but convinient storage beyond this is not easily attainable. |
| 03:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | Urk. |
| 03:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | What's your overall computer situation like? I don't really have a good sense for it. |
| 03:51 | <@Reiv> | OK |
| 03:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Like, I went Desktop -> Desktop+Server -> Desktop+Server+Laptop, so the laptop came last and I already had the server well established. |
| 03:52 | <@Reiv> | Orthia has a PC. It is solid and has performed well, remarkably so for a machine that is approximately 4-5 years old and counting. |
| 03:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | (actually, if we're counting my pre-university life, Server -> Server+Desktop; I lost the server and got my own desktop when I moved out) |
| 03:52 | <@Reiv> | Midrange at the time it was bought, still rocking a 17" monitor, all that jazz |
| 03:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | (and then symbol brought her own laptop and desktop when she moved in) |
| 03:54 | <@Reiv> | I went from having a rather more chompy PC of an even older vintage, bought for me by the good people of FLEET and Pondlife as a birthday present after the predecessor - a single-core AthlonXP 1700+ (yep) literally caught fire while I was thankfully present at 2AM in the morning. |
| 03:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | I can't parse that at all. |
| 03:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | What do you have right now? |
| 03:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | Just...what kinds of computers, and what kind of access? |
| 03:54 | <@Reiv> | That machine was effectively retired when I moved to Tauranga and started my new job, because I had no-where to put it. |
| 03:54 | <@Reiv> | Oh, sorry. You gave your history, so I was giving mine :) |
| 03:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | Like, I have two laptops, two desktops, and one server; the server is globally accessible. |
| 03:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | (and from the server I can access whichever of the laptops and desktops are powered on, provided that the laptops are connected to the home wifi) |
| 03:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | (this is actually how we do backups: orias periodically sshes into each other machine and takes a snapshot) |
| 03:55 | | * Vornicus needs to set himself up a home server, and also get himself an AWS instance to play with. |
| 03:56 | <@Reiv> | OK, so: Orthia owns a 4-5 year old, midspec-when-bought desktop at her house that I borrow on weekends a lot; I have a generation 1 Ultrabook that travels between cities with me, and can't run anything which involves Graphics(tm). |
| 03:57 | <@Reiv> | In Tauranga, I don't have a computer desk, so my laptop is very literal in its usage; I thus avoid plugging cables into the thing, hence no external drives. |
| 03:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. That's everything? For some reason I thought you also had a desktop, just one you aren't often at. |
| 03:58 | <@Reiv> | Yeah, that's /Orthia's/ |
| 03:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | Right, I thought you both had desktops is the thing |
| 03:58 | <@Reiv> | Hence the eternal struggle over the mIRC account on weekends >_> |
| 03:58 | <@Reiv> | Nope*. |
| 03:58 | <@Reiv> | *I also use a PC at work quite heavily, but that's because it has dual screens in the 22"+ range. I use it out of work hours a lot for Getting Things Done. |
| 03:59 | <@Reiv> | That may be the bit that causes confusion. |
| 03:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ooookay. Things make a bit more sense now. |
| 03:59 | <@Reiv> | Yeah |
| 04:00 | <@Reiv> | I also share my home network in Tauranga with the neighbours, who technically own the internet account we copay on. |
| 04:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you had your own desktop I would have suggested turning that into the server, or running a server VM on it, since you're hardly ever at it anyways, and then making it remotely accessible and offloading some of the stuff on the laptop to it to free up space |
| 04:01 | <@Reiv> | ... I have access to an old ex-work PC that I was thinking of converting into a file server type thing, but it's out of date enough that this will be "I will drag it out of storage and nuke'n'pave it to the OS of choice the weekend I set up the home network properly, and no sooner". |
| 04:01 | | * ToxicFrog nods |
| 04:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | The first Orias was an old AMD K6-III. |
| 04:01 | <@Reiv> | This will be after I move house, I suspect. |
| 04:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Old enough that it had entirely passive cooling. |
| 04:01 | <@Reiv> | haha neat |
| 04:02 | <@Reiv> | I could /theoretically/ rig it up right now and work on it as a practice box, but eh |
| 04:02 | <@Reiv> | And the other issue is that with all due respect, how to put it |
| 04:02 | <@Reiv> | "What the heck are you doing still up, I'm due to go home from work" |
| 04:02 | <@Reiv> | (Actually, remove the quote marks) |
| 04:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | Honestly if you have stuff on the laptop that you don't need access to at SSD speeds, and you can make it remotely accessible, it might be worthwhile doing now just so that you can do that |
| 04:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's only 11 here :P |
| 04:02 | <@Reiv> | what |
| 04:02 | <@Reiv> | But you go to bed /way/ before I go home >_> |
| 04:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | Not always! |
| 04:02 | <@Reiv> | This is why getting your assistance has proven futile~ |
| 04:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Normally I go to bed, well, right around now |
| 04:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | And get up eight hours later and leave for work |
| 04:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | (also, if windows's disk usage on your laptop is anything like what it is on durandal, you could get 40-50GB of space back by switching to linux~) |
| 04:04 | <@Reiv> | Right, right |
| 04:05 | <@Reiv> | Which is "You go to bed by 5pm local and wake up at 3pm local" |
| 04:05 | <@Reiv> | So you're not exactly ideally situated to provide "I am annoyed and want something working right now" support~ |
| 04:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | At 3am local, you mean |
| 04:06 | <@Reiv> | probably |
| 04:06 | <@Reiv> | yes |
| 04:06 | <@Reiv> | I am a genius, honest |
| 04:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | So I'm around about when you're waking up, but then you leave for work |
| 04:07 | <@Reiv> | Bingo |
| 04:08 | <@Reiv> | And then we argue with each other while I'm at work all day. :p |
| 04:08 | <@Reiv> | (Which explains why I dissapear at random and for extended lengths of time, obviously.) |
| 04:08 | <@Reiv> | (My code is being slow and janky today, so I have a lot of [xkcd:compiling] time~) |
| 04:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Right, but even then, while you're at work you aren't messing about with setting up a home server |
| 04:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | Although you could be once you've done the initial setup of making it remotely accessible~ |
| 04:10 | | * ToxicFrog often finds himself tweaking things on orias from work |
| 04:11 | <@Reiv> | That's correct, yeah |
| 04:11 | <@Reiv> | Mostly 'this is why for all that we talk at our leisure, I never get anything useful done while talking; I'm technically working' |
| 04:11 | <@Reiv> | I suspect we wouldn't be able to do that bit either unless I, like, rigged SSH to run over port 80 or similar shenanigans |
| 04:12 | <@Reiv> | With a webportal or something |
| 04:12 | <@Reiv> | Which is both a lot more advanced than 'just set up ssh' and starting to lean pretty heavily on the 'deliberately circumventing company policy' rules |
| 04:13 | <@Reiv> | I mean, I'm on a webchat. It's a website. It's not even blocked by the security software. |
| 04:13 | <@Reiv> | SSH however, is. |
| 04:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is why you have your ssh listen on the HTTPS port! |
| 04:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | And yeah, that's not really advanced at all; there's no web portal or anything needed |
| 04:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's one line in the sshd config file saying "also listen on this port" |
| 04:17 | <@Reiv> | Right, but, can you do SSH on a stock win7 build? |
| 04:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. No. You'd need to run an ssh client. |
| 04:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | I keep forgetting that not all companies use linux for everything~ |
| 04:17 | <@Reiv> | Right. I don't have installation privileges. |
| 04:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Can you run things without installing them? |
| 04:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | Because things like PuTTY have portable versions. |
| 04:18 | <@Reiv> | Depends very much on the software. |
| 04:18 | <@Reiv> | But perhaps worth a try. |
| 04:18 | <@Reiv> | but this is getting pretty heavy work >_> |
| 04:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | Not that heavy. Download PuTTY, unzip, double-click PuTTY.exe, enter server info, off you go. |
| 04:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, ok, not that heavy by windows standards |
| 04:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | I am, as noted earlier, used to having all of this stuff built in and being able to install the stuff that isn't built in with a single command. |
| 04:21 | <@Reiv> | Fair |
| 04:21 | <@Reiv> | But more 'so to get the thing working, first get it responding to SSH on HTTPS ports'... &etc |
| 04:22 | <@Reiv> | Doable, but ... ehn. I guess I should try again. |
| 04:23 | <@Reiv> | Along with installing Python and programming Snake >_> |
| 04:23 | <@Reiv> | In the meantime, hoemtime! |
| 04:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | 'night |
| 04:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | BTW, here's how to get SSH responding on https: |
| 04:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | - open /etc/sshd_config |
| 04:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | - find the line "# Port 22" |
| 04:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | - replace with: |
| 04:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Port 22 |
| 04:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Port 443 |
| 04:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | - save, quit, and restart sshd |
| 04:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Done! |
| 04:36 | <@celticminstrel> | It looks like I possibly worked out this location madness awhile ago... |
| 04:38 | <@celticminstrel> | The party's location (while in town) is stored as five separate points. |
| 04:39 | <@celticminstrel> | ...well, technically, one of those points isn't the party's location. It's the location of the upper left of the four currently loaded outdoor sectors. |
| 04:40 | <@celticminstrel> | I think two of the points store the same information but in different reference frames (the party's current sector with respect to the entire scenario, and with respect to the four currently loaded). |
| 04:40 | <@celticminstrel> | That said... "p_loc" is a terrible name for the former, and I'm still not certain that that's really what it's supposed to be... |
| 04:41 | <@celticminstrel> | Because "loc_in_sector" implies the same thing. |
| 04:42 | <@celticminstrel> | ...wait, no it doesn't. However, "p_loc" sometimes seems to be used where I'd expect "loc_in_sec" to be used. |
| 04:43 | <@celticminstrel> | And it doesn't help that their location in town is also called "p_loc". |
| 04:43 | | * celticminstrel goes back to staging stuff, will come back to this later. |
| 04:44 | <~Vornicus> | A lot of this seems like stuff that would actually benefit from a nearly-complete rewrite |
| 04:45 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, I'm not sure there's any reason to still keep a minimum of four outdoor sections in memory at one time (rather than the entire scenario). |
| 04:45 | <@celticminstrel> | Uh, maximum, not minimum. |
| 04:46 | <@celticminstrel> | (Max because there could be less than four total, or they could all be in a single row or column and then you'd only have two at a time.) |
| 04:46 | <~Vornicus> | Just because it appears to be built on assumptions that are not only no longer true, but vastly detrimental to the way the code works |
| 04:46 | <@celticminstrel> | Mm. |
| 04:47 | <@celticminstrel> | The minimum requirement for tracking the party's location is three points - current outdoor sector, location within current sector and (if in town) location in town. |
| 04:47 | <@celticminstrel> | So I could do away with the other two, certainly, and all the shift_universe stuff. |
| 04:48 | <@celticminstrel> | I think I was holding off on major rewrite type stuff partly because it's harder and partly because there are currently (as far as I know) three separate codebases to merge together. |
| 04:49 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, as of whenever I finish staging this commit, that number can be reduced to two, but... |
| 04:51 | <@celticminstrel> | I think the other one is more diverged, but not sure. |
| 04:54 | <@celticminstrel> | Although, at one point someone tried to bring it more in line with the one I'm working on, so it might not be so bad, though mine has diverged a lot more since then. |
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| 05:03 | < SmithKurosaki> | Evenin' gents |
| 05:03 | <@celticminstrel> | 'lo |
| 05:03 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, an SK. |
| 05:04 | < SmithKurosaki> | Hey. How you been? |
| 05:05 | <&McMartin> | Pretty good |
| 05:06 | <&McMartin> | Kind of treading water in terms of Grand Projects and such, though I have a tech blog now for my 8-bit retrocoding silliness |
| 05:07 | < SmithKurosaki> | Nice. I'm trying to reteach myself coding again |
| 05:08 | | * McMartin has a text editor, a Commodore 64 emulator, and a Batman glass full of iced tea. |
| 05:10 | < SmithKurosaki> | Niiice |
| 05:10 | <&McMartin> | It is a pleasant Sunday evening, yes. :) |
| 05:11 | <&McMartin> | (Also the retro channel I'm in elsenet is coming down off a Commodore convention near Toronto, it seems) |
| 05:12 | < SmithKurosaki> | Oh? |
| 05:12 | <&McMartin> | I guess there was one? Other than that I don't know a lot |
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| 05:43 | < SmithKurosaki> | Cool |
| 05:51 | < SmithKurosaki> | How's the west coast? Is it cold yet? |
| 05:52 | <&McMartin> | We've been getting a credible amount of rain, finally, but the temps are still in the high teens C. |
| 05:52 | <@Alek> | well there's a name I haven't seen in a good long time. |
| 06:00 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm pretty certain I've seen that person here sometime in the last, uh... year probably? |
| 06:04 | < SmithKurosaki> | Me? I used to be around all the damn time, but not running Linux as often as I used to |
| 06:05 | < SmithKurosaki> | Hi BTW :) |
| 06:05 | < SmithKurosaki> | I'm actually running this on my phone atm |
| 06:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Not to self: never use "<= numeric_limits<>::max()". |
| 06:09 | <@celticminstrel> | ^Note |
| 06:09 | <&McMartin> | ... yeah, that is unlikely to help you out~ |
| 06:09 | <@celticminstrel> | (For a loop, that is.) |
| 06:09 | <@celticminstrel> | (Though yeah, it's unlikely to help elsewhere to, I'd think.) |
| 06:50 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 06:57 | <@Julius> | Reiv: I really don't need that much permanent storage. |
| 06:57 | <@Julius> | ToxicFrog: I'm pretty sure Win7 will fit. |
| 06:58 | <@Julius> | ToxicFrog: Also, I don't expect to play AAA games. I want to play CK2 comfortably, dammit. |
| 07:00 | <&Orth> | Julius: win7 is eating 34 GB on my machine at the moment. |
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| 07:00 | <@Julius> | I'll check how much it is eating on my current gaming box. |
| 07:01 | <@Julius> | But 34 GB will fit. |
| 07:01 | <@Julius> | Even if it is atrocious. |
| 07:02 | <&Orth> | Right |
| 07:03 | <&Orth> | But I'm arguing that, say |
| 07:03 | <&Orth> | 30 GB is a very tight gaming budget, unless you have truly impressive data allowances |
| 07:03 | <&Orth> | How much extra would the 128 GB drive cost? |
| 07:03 | <@Julius> | This Win8.1 takes up 33.3 GB on my work computer, even if it counts up just 20 GB of files and folders. |
| 07:04 | <@Julius> | Orth: It's like 50-100 PLN extra. |
| 07:04 | <@Julius> | If I need extra storage, I'll buy a cheapo HDD. |
| 07:04 | <@Julius> | I want the SSD for the speed, not the size. |
| 07:05 | <@macdjord> | Julius: Go with the larger SSD. Definately worth it at that price. |
| 07:06 | <&Orth> | For 50PLN, you'll get a lot more flexibility |
| 07:06 | <&Orth> | Among other things, you'll reduce the need for thte extra drive entirely for a lot longer. |
| 07:06 | <&Orth> | And, y'know |
| 07:07 | <@Julius> | But I don't need it! This rig won't play the humongous games, because it doesn't have the processing capacity to do so, therefore I figure I don't need the space capacity. I don't plan to store my photos or Dropbox shite on it. |
| 07:07 | <&Orth> | Do you plan to run Office or anything equivalent? |
| 07:07 | <@Julius> | What for? |
| 07:07 | < SmithKurosaki> | So, computation efficiency question if I may |
| 07:07 | <&Orth> | "Working on the comfy computer", usually |
| 07:08 | <&Orth> | Because I note your budget doesn't actually include any spinning platters yet |
| 07:08 | <@Julius> | Because I don't expect to need them immediately? |
| 07:08 | <@Julius> | (Or, ever.) |
| 07:08 | <&Orth> | Yeah |
| 07:08 | <&Orth> | I dunno, up to you |
| 07:08 | <@Julius> | I'm also looking to buy a low-end modern laptop to do the office/social stuff on. |
| 07:08 | <&Orth> | But it's probably the cheapest way to extend the lifespan of your drive, and a pretty cheap upgrade to do it. |
| 07:09 | <@macdjord> | If you go with the 128, you might not need them ever. With the 64, I'm pretty sure you will, and even the cheapest HD is going to cost more than that price increment. |
| 07:09 | <&Orth> | Is there not benefit to combining the money and just getting a better laptop? |
| 07:09 | <@Julius> | macdjord: Even off the second-hand market? |
| 07:09 | <@macdjord> | Julius: ... I have no idea; I've never looked at the Polish secondhand HD market. |
| 07:10 | <&Orth> | Part of it: Remember that the windows appetite for space is only ever gonna go up. :p |
| 07:10 | <@Julius> | Hell, I can probably scavenge an HDD from one of my older boxes in the attic. |
| 07:10 | <&Orth> | Well, it's still up to you |
| 07:11 | <&Orth> | But I can trivially forsee "Damnit, can't fit enough on. Have to fit <thing you want> onto the other drive instead." |
| 07:11 | <@Julius> | Orth: If I buy a laptop that's capable of running CK2 comfortably, it'll be a) large and heavy, b) an overheating son of a bitch. |
| 07:11 | <&Orth> | Don't forget that you want to leave ~10% of the SSD empty for longevity |
| 07:11 | <@Julius> | I'll burn that bridge when I come to it. |
| 07:11 | < SmithKurosaki> | @McMartin still about? |
| 07:12 | <@Julius> | I've been working with limited HDD space all my life so far, I can continue doing it. |
| 07:12 | <&Orth> | So your gaming budget starts to very quickly look like 15-20 GB, total. I'd have to feel very sure in my gaming habits to make that sort of prediction. :p |
| 07:12 | <@macdjord> | Julius: Your call, but I'm definaetly seeing this as a case of 'penny wise, pund foolish'. |
| 07:12 | <&Orth> | Yeah, pretty much. |
| 07:13 | <&Orth> | How much RAM you rocking in this new rig, btw? |
| 07:13 | <@Julius> | Orth: I can fit Aurora4x, Dwarf Fortress, and TWENTY COPIES of Crusader Kings 2 in that space. |
| 07:13 | <&Orth> | haha |
| 07:14 | <@macdjord> | Julius: You are unlikely to greatly regret spending an extra 100 PLN. You very likely will regret missing an extra 64GB. |
| 07:14 | < SmithKurosaki> | You can almost never have too much space |
| 07:15 | < SmithKurosaki> | Esp when it comes to current ssd sizes |
| 07:17 | <@Julius> | macdjord: That kind of attitude leads to me spending twice as much as I need to. |
| 07:18 | < SmithKurosaki> | :( future proofing though is very helpful when you are building a rig |
| 07:19 | <&Orth> | what RAM, JuliusZ |
| 07:19 | <@Julius> | 4GB. |
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| 07:19 | | Orth is now known as Reiver |
| 07:20 | <&Reiver> | hrm |
| 07:20 | <&Reiver> | so |
| 07:20 | <&Reiver> | My setup is pretty similar, all told |
| 07:21 | <&Reiver> | 4 GB RAM, SSD, low-end spec elsewhere on the machine (More due to age than price, but hey ho it balances out) |
| 07:21 | <&Reiver> | The SSD comes pre-trimed to 110 GB in order to give it the 10% spare room it needs to work right |
| 07:21 | <&Reiver> | I then find I need to leave at least 10GB free else the machine gets long, annoying pauses when it needs to juggle swap space. |
| 07:22 | <&Reiver> | Which it does on a remarkable number of things. Go figure. |
| 07:22 | <@Julius> | 4GB RAM I found I need because otherwise paging gets involved and that's a pain. |
| 07:23 | <&Reiver> | Paging happens anyway, I find :/ |
| 07:23 | <&Reiver> | I don't even push the machine very hard. |
| 07:23 | <&Reiver> | So, 34 GB of windows, 6 GB of trimspace, 10 GB of swap... a couple big fat windows patches and you'll be hurting in no time, even if you're quite determined that the thing is exclusively a CK2 game box. |
| 07:24 | <&Reiver> | Still up to you, but just sayin'. |
| 07:24 | <@Julius> | Ugh, patches. I hope to avoid that altogether. |
| 07:24 | <&Reiver> | Don't count on it |
| 07:25 | <&Reiver> | Unless this machine is also never going to be online either :P |
| 07:25 | <&Reiver> | The SSD is probably the biggest place worth spending a little extra to at least start waving in the direction of price:performance, and a 128 SSD might well be still usable on your *next* cutprice machine, if you leave it empty enough. |
| 07:26 | <&Reiver> | (They wear out partly based on how full they are, sorta. I'm being a naughty boy with mine as is. >_>) |
| 07:26 | <@Julius> | I'll take that into consideration. |
| 07:27 | <&Reiver> | (the rest of the machine, it'd be tempting to upgrade for the 'easy wins', too. But I understand where you're coming from regarding budget, so the compromises made there make sense and you'll probably not regret.) |
| 07:28 | <&Reiver> | (That said, if you've the ability to stick an extra 4GB of RAM in later for a trivial price difference now, that might be an option too. Still less painful than that SSD, though. :P) |
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| 07:29 | <@Julius> | (The performance difference of 2GB vs 4GB is huge enough for me to buy the extra chip.) |
| 07:29 | < SmithKurosaki> | So, I'm going through project Euler trying to reteach myself how to code using c because that's the one I remember best. Problem 3 is find largest prime factor of x. Trying to figure out what loop construction is most efficient to check prime and factor validity |
| 07:30 | <@Julius> | SmithKurosaki: Something involving roots of X. |
| 07:30 | <@Julius> | That's what I recall from it. |
| 07:31 | < SmithKurosaki> | As in find factors, check for prime? |
| 07:32 | <@Julius> | I think it was something along the lines of "if there isn't a factor in x^0.5, there won't be one, see this unproven mathematical theory". |
| 07:32 | < SmithKurosaki> | @ |
| 07:33 | < SmithKurosaki> | Hmm... |
| 07:33 | < SmithKurosaki> | I'm not that great at math theory beyond basic calculus. |
| 07:34 | <@macdjord> | If you don't find a prime factor of x which is <= sqrt(x), then x is prime |
| 07:36 | < SmithKurosaki> | *brain splodes* I also think that's not quite in scope of the issue |
| 07:36 | < SmithKurosaki> | Need largest prime factor of x, not to prove x is prime |
| 07:40 | <@Julius> | Iterate from x/2 downwards, checking if something is a factor, and if so, if it is prime? |
| 07:40 | <@Julius> | There's probably a more efficient way to do this. |
| 07:43 | < SmithKurosaki> | I was going to do that, iterating upwards on the prime check, *but* if I generate a factor before checking for prime that will be faster (for loop a is x/factor1, check factor 2 for prime |
| 07:45 | < SmithKurosaki> | I knew I was looking at it the wrong way. I want yo relearn complexity calculations though yoo |
| 07:45 | < SmithKurosaki> | *too |
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| 08:13 | < SmithKurosaki> | Reteaching myself C is interesting |
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| 08:23 | < SmithKurosaki> | Anyone about for me to double check loop logic with? |
| 08:24 | < MantaWaffles> | Not me! |
| 08:25 | < SmithKurosaki> | Lame |
| 08:25 | < SmithKurosaki> | I'm trying to figure out how to code my loops properly to check if a number is prime |
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| 08:26 | < SmithKurosaki> | I think I just figured out how Mack's statement works into things now though... Maybe |
| 08:29 | < SmithKurosaki> | Time to go look up multifunction setup again. |
| 08:31 | < MantaWaffles> | I'd love to help, but I need it more than I can give it. |
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| 08:35 | < SmithKurosaki> | *confused*? |
| 08:36 | < SmithKurosaki> | Err, Nm. |
| 08:36 | < SmithKurosaki> | What do you need help with? |
| 08:37 | < MantaWaffles> | Oh, nothing at the moment, thanks. I'm just lurking in case I AM able to help someone. |
| 08:44 | < SmithKurosaki> | OK, you might be able to help with this one. Is there a way I can run a calculation and then run a boolean operation on it inside an if or while statement? |
| 08:44 | < SmithKurosaki> | Or do I need to do the calc before the loop and then have the only condition on the loop be boolean |
| 08:47 | < MantaWaffles> | I gotta admit that I'm still very new to programming, and I have little time to improve. I truly would love to help you, but I really don't know ^^; |
| 08:49 | < SmithKurosaki> | Ahh OK. I understand :) what you learning? I might be able to help with some basic c :) I'm just getting reminded of all my little gaps :p |
| 08:52 | < MantaWaffles> | I'm learning python. I've heard it's a better start than C |
| 08:52 | <&McMartin> | SK: What do you mean by 'run a calculation and then check inside an if'? |
| 08:52 | <&McMartin> | Do you mean like if(complicated_thing() > 3) { ... }? |
| 08:52 | <&McMartin> | C rather infamously allows you to write if (a = b) { ... } |
| 08:53 | <&McMartin> | which does not check whether a is equal to b, but instead assigns b to a and then checks to see if b was equal to 0. |
| 09:08 | < SmithKurosaki> | Was doing ((x%y) != 0) |
| 09:10 | < SmithKurosaki> | I figured out a workaround for now. Gonna get some sleep, need to retype my variables so I *can* use mod |
| 09:19 | <&McMartin> | That is completely legit, what you typed |
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| 12:44 | <@gnolam> | *snerk* http://io9.com/sham-journal-accepts-totally-absurd-but-completely-appr-166132902 8 |
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| 14:23 | <@TheWatcher> | Ahaha, that's awesome |
| 14:42 | | * gnolam glarghls at datetime. |
| 14:43 | <@gnolam> | Seriously, would it have killed you to include the fucking timezone? |
| 14:50 | | abudhabi [abudhabi@Nightstar-7nkq9k.de] has joined #code |
| 15:07 | <@iospace> | this file |
| 15:07 | <@iospace> | ~400 lines of code, maybe less |
| 15:07 | <@iospace> | only /one/ inline comment |
| 15:07 | <@iospace> | one |
| 15:31 | <@Azash> | gnolam: If you don't use UTC, well, that's your problem |
| 15:31 | <@Azash> | :P |
| 15:34 | <@ErikMesoy> | So previously I mentioned my workplace had someone who was very happy with the copypaste of "A bank account is a financial account which by when recording non-financial transactions" all across the explanations. |
| 15:34 | <@ErikMesoy> | Today I found some docs where someone probably should have copypasted, but didn't. |
| 15:34 | <@ErikMesoy> | To wit, the spec for the Unfreeze Account action says it should have audit log and rollback feature on abort. |
| 15:34 | <@ErikMesoy> | The spec for the Freeze Account action lacks these things. |
| 15:36 | <@ErikMesoy> | So I invite you to consider just how badly things could go wrong if some manager tries to freeze a bank account, the operation goes wonky halfway through, and there's no good record of what happened. :D |
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| 15:43 | | * gnolam slaps Azash. |
| 15:48 | < SmithKurosaki> | Yea. I think there was an underlying issue with types. Gonna poke it today |
| 15:53 | <@gnolam> | Azash: Being able to compare local time to UTC is the entire fucking point. |
| 15:53 | <@Azash> | gnolam: Easy, easy |
| 15:53 | <@Azash> | I'm joking with you |
| 16:09 | < SmithKurosaki> | What programs can compile c code in windows and don't suck? |
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| 16:54 | <@Azash> | SmithKurosaki: I seem to recall there was some way to compile C with VSC++ |
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| 17:04 | | Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: @Orthia, @gnolam, @himi, [R], VirusJTG, Turaiel |
| 17:05 | < SmithKurosaki> | Which now? I'm just getting back into things |
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| 17:06 | <@gnolam> | Also: datetime.timedelta what the fucking fuck |
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| 17:09 | <@gnolam> | SmithKurosaki: if you don't need C99, there's Visual Studio Express - the free version of Visual Studio. |
| 17:09 | <@gnolam> | If you do need C99 support, there's MinGW, the Windows port of GCC. |
| 17:11 | < SmithKurosaki> | Kk |
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| 17:11 | < SmithKurosaki> | Its looked like express didnt do straight c |
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| 17:13 | <@Azash> | SmithKurosaki: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8579894/compile-c-app-with-visual-studio-201 2 |
| 17:15 | < SmithKurosaki> | Kk ty |
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| 17:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | SmithKurosaki: it does, but only C89, IIRC, so if you want things like // you'll have to either build as C++ or use gcc. |
| 17:23 | < abudhabi> | I hate passwords. So much. |
| 17:23 | | * abudhabi wants to rant about how the human brain cannot remember so many passwords as are apparently required these days. |
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| 17:24 | <@ErikMesoy> | Passwords are really not a good interface to humans. *nods* |
| 17:24 | < abudhabi> | I'd also like every damn website nowadays to STOP WITH THE FUCKING PASSWORD REQUIREMENTS CREEP. |
| 17:25 | <@ErikMesoy> | Hence we get my mother, who used to have multiple pages of passwords printed out, and I know a dozen of them because she calls me on the phone and asks me to log in for her. |
| 17:25 | < abudhabi> | Remembering a password with upper case, lower case and numbers is a huge pain. |
| 17:26 | < abudhabi> | I'd use the same password everywhere, but that's stupid for different reasons. |
| 17:26 | <@ErikMesoy> | Mmhm. |
| 17:26 | < abudhabi> | The choices appear to be "vulnerable" and "so secure you can't access your own accounts". |
| 17:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is what password managers are for. |
| 17:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | I don't even know the passwords to most of the sites I use. |
| 17:27 | <@ErikMesoy> | Remembering lots of different passwords to stringent requirements is a pain, printing out lots of passwords is a failure mode, using the same password everyone is a different failure mode, using a password manager is an interface layer on top of using the same password everywhere (still just one password to be stolen for single point of failure). |
| 17:28 | < abudhabi> | And if you forget that password, or lose the data file, you're fucked. |
| 17:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy: it's much harder to steal the password for the password manager, though, since it's only ever used locally. |
| 17:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | Same password everywhere just requires one of the sites you used it on to be compromised and turn out to be using unsalted md5 or, you know, storing the passwords in plaintext, because of course they fucking do |
| 17:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | If someone gets the password to my keepass file, they have so completely compromised my local machine that they can pull the passwords as I type them anyways. |
| 17:30 | < abudhabi> | How do you even log into anything from a computer that doesn't belong to you with a password manager? Do you keep it on a pendrive or something? |
| 17:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have it mirrored to my phone, actually |
| 17:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | But in my case this basically never occurs. |
| 17:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | There's not much I do with other people's computers. |
| 17:34 | | * abudhabi swears profusely and loudly that his bank got merged into another bank and transfered everything to another system and now there's new passwords for everything. |
| 17:34 | < abudhabi> | I have written down my client identification number, at least, but I can't for the life of me remember my PIN. |
| 17:34 | < abudhabi> | I remember the old one, but it doesn't work. |
| 17:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | Do you have your CID in email history or something? |
| 17:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy: also, as far as failure modes, recent history has demonstrated conclusively that "writing down all your passwords" is vastly more secure than "using the same password everywhere" |
| 17:36 | < abudhabi> | I have it written down on the plastic card that I got with the old internet banking system that got superseded. |
| 17:36 | < abudhabi> | I checked my inbox, and there's only a registration confirmation there. |
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| 17:39 | < abudhabi> | ...and my other bank is showing me some kind of error has occurred. |
| 17:39 | < abudhabi> | FUCK. |
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| 18:11 | <&jeroud> | I have no idea what the guy taking band practice just said, but I'm sure it wasn't the "Masonic segfault" I heard. |
| 18:11 | <@gnolam> | :) |
| 18:12 | <@gnolam> | Band Name Alert |
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| 18:14 | <&jeroud> | My bank's password requirements are really annoying. |
| 18:14 | <&jeroud> | I need mixed case and digits, but symbols are prohibited. |
| 18:15 | <@Tamber> | That's a sign that it's being fed into something horrible. |
| 18:15 | <&jeroud> | I keep my passwords in my head (mostly because I've never gotten around to setting up a password manager) and those particular requirements break my algorithms. |
| 18:17 | <@gnolam> | When my bank was still using its broken certificate program thingy, they once updated their password requirements. |
| 18:17 | <&jeroud> | Also, if I get it wrong three times I have to get the call centre to reset it and then it rejects anything that matches any previous passwords case-insensitively. |
| 18:17 | <@gnolam> | From 8-12 characters, symbols allowed, mixed case and one digit required, to 8-12 characters, symbols not allowed, mixed case and at least two digits required. |
| 18:17 | <@gnolam> | Because if requiring one digit makes a password more secure, requiring two makes it /twice/ as strong, right? |
| 18:17 | <@gnolam> | >_< |
| 18:18 | <@Tamber> | Clearly. |
| 18:20 | <&jeroud> | Our office wifi password is a word followed by "12345". |
| 18:21 | <&jeroud> | Because it's clearly more secure than the usual "123". |
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| 19:38 | <@celticminstrel> | ...oh, I think I figured out what this location madness is. |
| 19:39 | <@celticminstrel> | I think p_loc is the location with respect to the currently loaded terrain (consisting of up to four sectors), while loc_in_sec is with respect to the current sector. So, they could either be the same, or off by 48 in one or both directions. |
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| 21:32 | < Harlow> | When would you use a reference to a pointer in c++? |
| 21:35 | <@celticminstrel> | When you want to change where it points? |
| 21:35 | <@celticminstrel> | The same sort of place you'd use a pointer to a pointer in C. |
| 21:36 | < Harlow> | When would you exclusively need a reference to a pointer |
| 21:37 | < Harlow> | &*a vs **a |
| 21:38 | <@celticminstrel> | I think you mean a*& vs a**... |
| 21:38 | <@celticminstrel> | But really, they'd be used in very similar cases. |
| 21:38 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, a reference to a pointer is more like a const pointer to a pointer, so type**const. |
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| 21:59 | < Harlow> | so then why do they exist it just seems useless, i mean just use ** and you're fine right? |
| 22:10 | <@celticminstrel> | ... |
| 22:11 | <@celticminstrel> | You seem to be suggesting that references are useless and you should just use pointers. |
| 22:13 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 22:13 | <&McMartin> | This may be more fundamental |
| 22:13 | <&McMartin> | "Because you should be able to compose expressions arbitrarily or it is not a proper programming language" |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | We have a rule "type *" -> type |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | and a rule "type &" -> type |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | Therefor, type ** and type *& and type *&* are all types. |
| 22:14 | <@celticminstrel> | But I'm pretty sure "type&*" is not in fact a valid type. |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I'm not positive about that one |
| 22:15 | <&McMartin> | Especially since type&& isn't allowed |
| 22:15 | <&McMartin> | Pointers are however absolutely fully recursively specifiable |
| 22:15 | <@celticminstrel> | Except in C++11 where it has a totally different meaning from type&. |
| 22:15 | <&McMartin> | Those will produce some kind of finalized type |
| 22:16 | | * McMartin may have spent too many years writing grammars. -_- |
| 22:31 | < Harlow> | So why do we need it in our language construct again? |
| 22:32 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, why do we need references at all? |
| 22:32 | | * celticminstrel prefers them when possible because they're less "messy", or something. |
| 22:32 | < Harlow> | I don't know. |
| 22:33 | <&McMartin> | References are not as powerful as pointers. That means that the compiler can more readily enforce useful invariants about them. |
| 22:33 | <&McMartin> | In particular: the compiler can statically guarantee that a reference is either uninitialized or referring to a chunk of memory that is actually that type. |
| 22:34 | <@celticminstrel> | Except when you assign a dereferenced null pointer to the reference... |
| 22:34 | <&McMartin> | That is "uninitialized"~ |
| 22:34 | <@celticminstrel> | Well okay. |
| 22:34 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, yeah |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | References are literally "pointers you can't do pointer arithmetic to" and the answer to "why would you ever want this" is "pointer arithmetic sucks" |
| 22:36 | <@celticminstrel> | They're also "const pointers". |
| 22:36 | <@celticminstrel> | ie, you can't change where they point to. |
| 22:37 | < Harlow> | I still think the best answer I've heard is how it can be useful to compilers. Everything else just sounds like an extra bonus. Where they added because of the compiler benefit? |
| 22:40 | <@Azash> | McMartin: Pointer arithmetic is really fun |
| 22:40 | <@Azash> | When you're writing it |
| 22:40 | <@Azash> | References are really fun |
| 22:40 | <@Azash> | When you're debugging them |
| 22:45 | < AbuDhabi> | Practical difference between 2x2GB and 1x4GB RAM? |
| 22:46 | < Harlow> | 1X4 is faster. |
| 22:46 | < AbuDhabi> | Awesome. It's also a bit cheaper. |
| 22:46 | <@Tamber> | Practical difference? 1x4GB gives you another free slot that you can add more RAM to, later. :p |
| 22:47 | < Harlow> | oh i mean 2x2 is faster |
| 22:47 | < Harlow> | i thought you were saying 4 x1 |
| 22:47 | < Harlow> | to fill 4gb |
| 22:47 | < Harlow> | you always want to max out the bus with cards if possible. |
| 22:47 | < AbuDhabi> | How much faster? |
| 22:47 | < Harlow> | up to 2x |
| 22:48 | < Harlow> | should be |
| 22:48 | < Harlow> | i mean it should work in parallel. from what I'm used to thats exactly how ram works, if you have dual channel ram. |
| 22:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | ^ that |
| 22:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | With 2x2 you are sacrificing a memory slot for twice the memory bandwidth, on a system that supports dual-channel RAM (which should be basically everything these days) |
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| 23:15 | <&McMartin> | "Were they added because of the compiler benefit" - really more the debugging benefit. It is not a coincidence that basically every post-C++ language *only* provides references - and if we get right down to it, most pre-C languages did the same. |
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| --- Log closed Tue Dec 09 00:00:09 2014 |