| --- Log opened Sun Dec 07 00:00:37 2014 |
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| 02:54 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 02:54 | <@froztbyte> | that's a good starter quote |
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| 11:21 | <@Azash> | https://www.owasp.org/index.php/REST_Security_Cheat_Sheet |
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| 14:19 | < mitrom> | Hello |
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| 17:16 | < Cinderellabear> | I'm fabulouths. Don't question it. |
| 17:16 | | Cinderellabear is now known as Stumblinbear |
| 17:34 | | * celticminstrel blinks. |
| 17:34 | <@celticminstrel> | How can someone be so oblivious as to add a check for x == 3 within an if block checking for x == 2. |
| 17:36 | | * celticminstrel also wishes this was an enumeration so I could remember what 2 and 3 mean. |
| 17:37 | < Stumblinbear> | xD |
| 17:37 | <@celticminstrel> | I think 2 is "drains light" and 3 is "so totally dark that light doesn't even help". |
| 17:49 | <@gnolam> | Ah, you're reviewing OpenSSL code.~ |
| 17:50 | <@Tamber> | hee |
| 17:51 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh, no. I doubt OpenSSL code has anything that means "light", anyway. :P |
| 18:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Gasp! Option-click the back button to open it in a split editor! :O |
| 18:03 | <@celticminstrel> | Shouldn't be surprising that it works, but I just never thought of it. |
| 18:03 | <@celticminstrel> | ...apparently it opens the current file in the split editor. Still useful though, cause then I can click back normally. |
| 18:06 | <@celticminstrel> | Maybe this has improved in XCode 5(?) which my computer can't run. |
| 18:08 | <@celticminstrel> | ...of course, knowing Apple, it's entirely possible that XCode 5 is completely different in every way. |
| 18:10 | <@celticminstrel> | Fun fact: Using strict enums has the unexpected benefit of confusing XCode into thinking it's a class... which means it appears in the function popdown menu. |
| 18:20 | | * celticminstrel wonders if there's a way to get the underlying integral type of an enum. |
| 18:22 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah! There is! |
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| 19:39 | <@celticminstrel> | Apparently destroying a set with 4 million elements takes awhile. |
| 19:39 | <@celticminstrel> | ^billion |
| 19:39 | < Stumblinbear> | ._. |
| 19:40 | <@celticminstrel> | (It wasn't supposed to have 4 billion elements.) |
| 19:44 | | * celticminstrel isn't certain about the actual number, is just guessing based on integral limits. |
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| 21:06 | | * celticminstrel flails, trying to replicate C99 initializers using templates. >_> |
| 21:06 | <@Tamber> | That way (yet more) madness lies. |
| 21:06 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm sure. |
| 21:07 | <@celticminstrel> | I'd just use C99 initializers, but I want this to compile in VS later which doesn't support them (or at least, the version I have doesn't). |
| 21:08 | <@celticminstrel> | Currently it complains of "no viable overloaded operator=". |
| 21:08 | <@Tamber> | ISTR something along the lines of "VS will never get anything later than C89. Use a .NET thing.", but I could be imagining it. |
| 21:09 | <@celticminstrel> | I hope so. |
| 21:09 | <@Tamber> | <Microsoft has long avoided supporting C99, the major update to C++'s predecessor that was standardized last millennium, claiming that there was little demand for it among Visual Studio users.> |
| 21:10 | <@Tamber> | <While full C99 support is still not in the cards, Sutter said that certain specific features were going to be added, including C99's compound literals and direct initializers. These additions will mean that many open source projects will become buildable in Visual Studio without demanding significant code changes.> |
| 21:10 | <@celticminstrel> | Though, if they got adopted into C++, I'm sure Microsoft would add support for them. |
| 21:10 | <@Tamber> | So, uh, "maybe"? |
| 21:10 | <@celticminstrel> | But I'm not gonna be updating VS anytime soon, anyway. |
| 21:11 | <@Tamber> | ...oh, apparently VS2013 got enough bits of C99 to make some open-source stuff compile in it; and the rest of the roadmap is "C++14 is the future" |
| 21:11 | <@Tamber> | But that's a post from mid-2013. |
| 21:11 | <@celticminstrel> | Actually, if I recall, I think it does support C99 initializers... but not when compiling as C++. |
| 21:12 | <@celticminstrel> | So, hmm. |
| 21:19 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah, looks like I got it to work. |
| 21:21 | <@celticminstrel> | It turned out simpler than I expected - there isn't even any CRTP. |
| 21:31 | <@celticminstrel> | All I have is a template class which has an operator= that returns a bound reference to its other function. |
| 22:38 | <&McMartin> | Tamber: AFAIK what you describe is still their plan and their attitude |
| 22:39 | <@Tamber> | Which? "To hell with C99 and later, you should be using our stuff."? |
| 22:39 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, so, it doesn't quite work. |
| 22:41 | <&McMartin> | Tamber: More like "We aren't really planning on adding Intellisense support for trigraphs either" |
| 22:41 | <@celticminstrel> | Even after stripping off all the const, something is apparently read-only. |
| 22:41 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh wait, missed one. |
| 22:41 | <@celticminstrel> | ...ohhh. |
| 22:41 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 22:41 | <@celticminstrel> | I think the issue was that I had a pointer to const rather than a const pointer. |
| 22:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Yep, that fixes the first error, at least. |
| 22:42 | <@Julius> | How much practical difference is there between a 4x1500 processor and a 2x3000? |
| 22:42 | <@Julius> | (Cores, frequency.) |
| 22:42 | <@Tamber> | Depends on the sort of things you run. |
| 22:42 | <@Julius> | Games. |
| 22:43 | <@Tamber> | Let me rephrase that. |
| 22:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Now, I have "non-const lvalue reference to std::function<...> cannot bind to a temporary of type __bind<...>". |
| 22:43 | <@celticminstrel> | ...why do I need to return a reference, anyway? |
| 22:43 | <@celticminstrel> | There we go. Compiles. |
| 22:44 | <@Tamber> | Depends on how the software you plan on running uses multiple cores. And what else you plan on running at the same time, I suppose. |
| 22:44 | <@Julius> | I don't know, and nothing. |
| 22:44 | <@Tamber> | A piece of software that needs to do lots of processing, but only uses a single (or maybe 2) core(s), will probably run much better on the 2x3k. |
| 22:45 | <@Julius> | I don't plan to run anything concurrently with a game on my gaming PC. I have my regular use PC for non-games. |
| 22:45 | <@Julius> | Right-o. |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | So the trick here is that graphics rendering is highly parallel |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | But as a rule strategic analysis &c are not |
| 22:45 | <@Tamber> | On the flipside of that, you're probably also running an OS, which will want to do other things at the same time... |
| 22:46 | <@Tamber> | In summary: Aaaaaaaa. ;) |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | That said |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | This is a *strict* tradeoff here |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | Except under *very specific* circumstances the 2x3k will always beat out twice as many cores that are half as fast. |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | Because under optimum conditions their throughput will be identical and conditions won't be optimal much. |
| 22:47 | <@Tamber> | Yup. |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | The place where the 2x3k will fail is if you have a set of tasks that could use 3 cores at 1.5k completely, but the way the OS is organizing it ends up single-core on the 3k. |
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| 22:48 | <@Tamber> | Which is a bit of a pessimal place to end up. |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | But I can't, offhand, think of anything that would be single-core on a dual-core system but triple-core on a quad-core system. |
| 22:49 | <@Tamber> | Most games I've encountered really only use 2 cores at most, and thus rely more on your single-core performance, rather than your over-all-cores performance. |
| 22:50 | <@Tamber> | (Offloading the relatively easily parallelisable Render Things onto the GPU and associated hardware.) |
| 22:52 | <@Reiv> | Tamber: I've seen games run 3 or so cores at times |
| 22:52 | <@Reiv> | One for The Game, one for AI, one for Pathfinding |
| 22:52 | <@Tamber> | I haven't encountered every game. :p |
| 22:53 | <@Reiv> | I was noting that as a curious example of 'multiple cores, but very specific numbers thereof' |
| 22:53 | <@Tamber> | Ah, fairy nuff. |
| 22:53 | <@Reiv> | "Yeah, we run multicore... but only to three, because those were conceptually easy to offload and computationally expensive' |
| 22:53 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: Right, but a situation like that would end up using "one and a half cores" under optimum conditions |
| 22:53 | <&McMartin> | The developer is presumably assigning those as *threads* |
| 22:54 | <@Reiv> | One and a half being? |
| 22:54 | <&McMartin> | Two threads on one core, taking turns, the other on the second |
| 22:54 | <@Reiv> | oh right yes |
| 22:54 | <&McMartin> | And since it's twice as fast, "taking turns" should end up doing as well as true parallelism. |
| 22:55 | <@Reiv> | right |
| 22:55 | <@Reiv> | So what is 2x3k anyway |
| 22:55 | <@Reiv> | I came into the conversation late |
| 22:56 | <@Reiv> | Is it a specific hardware setup? |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | The comparison is between 2 cores at 3GHz and 4 cores at 1.5GHz |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | My take on this is that 2x3GHz is going to get better average performance across basically any task |
| 22:57 | <@Reiv> | oh right |
| 22:57 | <@Reiv> | Yes indeed |
| 22:58 | <@Reiv> | The main reason paralellism has taken off is because eg you can now rock 2 cores at 3GHz or 3 cores at 2GHz, but no-one's worked out how to hit 2x4 yet, as it were |
| 22:58 | <@Reiv> | (I made those numbers up) |
| 22:58 | <@Reiv> | (And got them wrong, well done me) |
| 22:58 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 22:59 | <@Reiv> | (2x3, 4x2, 2x4) |
| 22:59 | <&McMartin> | I do seem to recall that our clock speeds have been limited by the speed of light and the size of our circuit elements for some time |
| 22:59 | <@Tamber> | Well, they worked out how to hit 2x4 (and higher); but OM NOM NOM power, and you can cook your breakfast on it. |
| 22:59 | <@Reiv> | Stupid quantam physics |
| 22:59 | <@Reiv> | You were meant to be theoretical and weird |
| 22:59 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 22:59 | <@Reiv> | Stop /showing up in our CPUs/ |
| 22:59 | <&McMartin> | Well, no, see, the quantum part puts limits on the size of the circuit elements |
| 22:59 | <&McMartin> | We hit speed of light limits in, like, the 1980s |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | It's just the circuit elements were way bigger and further apart then which meant that the speed of light time restrictions were rougher. |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | Time and distance: Secretly the same thing |
| 23:00 | <@Reiv> | yeah |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | Though, um, hm |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | Clock skew has to be older than the 1980s |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | At some point you're talking "speed of electrons in copper" though not speed of light |
| 23:01 | <@Julius> | Hmm. I could treat myself to a low-end modern computer for 731.60 PLN. I think I will. |
| 23:02 | <@Reiv> | wait, how're you hitting so low? |
| 23:02 | <@Tamber> | I am still slightly shocked when I stop and think to myself, just how ludicrously powerful a "low end" computer is, compared to a "high-end" computer of 10 years ago... nevermind 20. |
| 23:02 | <@Reiv> | My budget starts at twice that ;_; |
| 23:02 | <@Julius> | I already have a graphics card. Otherwise it would have been 1000 PLN and change. |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | PLN is a currency code I had actually never seen before. |
| 23:03 | <@Reiv> | It's pole money. |
| 23:03 | <@Tamber> | PoLish Numbers. \o/ |
| 23:03 | <@Reiv> | (Not actually for strippers) |
| 23:03 | <&McMartin> | Yes, I have since called up conversions |
| 23:03 | <@Reiv> | sssh, you messed up my terrible pun |
| 23:04 | <&McMartin> | 731 PLN = 216 USD |
| 23:04 | <&McMartin> | ... yeah, that's a netbook |
| 23:04 | | * Tamber shambles off because waugh-late; responsibility, work, and despair in the morning... |
| 23:04 | <@Julius> | I'm actually assembling a desktop. |
| 23:05 | <&McMartin> | If you already have a graphics card, that does still seem more or less reasonable |
| 23:05 | <&McMartin> | Though it's very low end at that point. |
| 23:05 | <&McMartin> | ... oh, also if you have a monitor |
| 23:05 | <@Julius> | I do. |
| 23:05 | <@Julius> | And a mouse. And a keyboard. |
| 23:05 | <&McMartin> | OK, yeah. |
| 23:05 | <&McMartin> | That set of stuff all together probably exceeds 216 USD >_> |
| 23:07 | <@Julius> | http://i.imgur.com/kAzRnqK.png <- Here's what I have chosen. |
| 23:07 | <@Julius> | I'll see about ordering it later. |
| 23:07 | <@Julius> | When I don't need to sleep. |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | Before you go, can you tell me what part of speech Konfigurator is because I am curious |
| 23:07 | <@Julius> | Noun. |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | Is it actually "configurator" or is closer to "configuration"? |
| 23:08 | <@Julius> | Configurator. |
| 23:09 | <@Julius> | The site has a neat assembly thingy. I went with the cheapest compatible things for everything. |
| 23:09 | | * McMartin nods |
| 23:10 | <&McMartin> | 64GB is pretty darn small in this decadent age - is the plan to use that as a boot drive and hook a spinny disk up to store your data? |
| 23:12 | <@Julius> | I don't need that much space. This isn't for regular operation. I can damn well delete games I'm not using. |
| 23:20 | <@Reiv> | Julius: I would be inclined to expand to 128GB on the SSD |
| 23:20 | <@Reiv> | Unless your bandwidth is a lot more liberal than I remember, you may wish to have a /bit/ of a buffer |
| 23:20 | <@Reiv> | You've got to fit an OS with all the fixin's on there too, after all. |
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| 23:21 | <@Reiv> | And SSDs start to suffer if you don't have a chunk of spare space handy. |
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| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | Also, I may have my expectations warped by, e.g., that latest Halo game |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | Which apparently had a 30GB day 1 patch and I can only imagine how large the original data transfer was |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | Compare my indie game habit where most installs are 100MB or sometimes even less~ |
| 23:28 | <@Reiv> | Yeah |
| 23:28 | <@Reiv> | It depends what games you rock |
| 23:42 | <~Vornicus> | What the hell are you doing that a 30gb patch is sensible |
| 23:42 | <~Vornicus> | Hell, even *possible* |
| 23:43 | <@Reiv> | "Oops, we messed up the compression on one of our map packs" |
| 23:43 | <@gnolam> | Replacing the entire game? |
| 23:44 | <@Reiv> | "Here, have the new zip file" |
| 23:44 | | * ToxicFrog upreads |
| 23:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you're trying to fit everything on the SSD, a modern windows will not fit, full stop |
| 23:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Linux will but you'll be limited to, like, one AAA game installed at a time. |
| 23:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | For Durandal I actually just retrofitted a 128GB SSD onto it which I use just for storing games, and the OS is on spinning rust |
| 23:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, at least here, 64GB SSDs cost you way more per unit storage than 128GB and up. |
| 23:47 | <@Reiv> | I think the concern is less value and more total cost |
| 23:47 | <@Reiv> | But yeah, I'd really go for a 128 at minimum |
| 23:47 | <@Reiv> | It's the first point of failure you'd notice. |
| 23:48 | <&McMartin> | Vornicus: Yeah, I'm not sure if it's more mockworthy as "they can't do deltas" or "that *was* the delta" |
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| 23:52 | <~Vornicus> | I mean 30GB game I can see. 250GB game I can see. 30GB patch? On day one? pull the other one |
| 23:57 | <@Reiv> | Vornicus: No, I can believe it |
| 23:57 | <@Reiv> | Remember an awful lot can be cleaned up after 'shipping' these days |
| 23:58 | <@Reiv> | It may well have been a bunch of re-done textures or something |
| --- Log closed Mon Dec 08 00:00:53 2014 |