| --- Log opened Thu Dec 04 00:00:27 2014 |
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| 10:24 | | * Tarinaky swears at the documentation being unhelpful |
| 10:25 | <@Tarinaky> | In Ruby, I have a regex object /#{70,}/ |
| 10:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Which is /supposed/ to match 70 or more #s in a row |
| 10:25 | <@Tarinaky> | However, it just plain doesn't want to |
| 10:25 | <@Tarinaky> | syntax error, unexpected ',', expecting '}' |
| 10:25 | <@Tarinaky> | http://www.ruby-doc.org/core-2.1.5/Regexp.html |
| 10:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Says {n,} - n or more times |
| 10:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Argh, this isn't working :/ |
| 10:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh, it's because it's a hash character in ruby |
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| 12:00 | <@Julius> | http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/ |
| 12:07 | <@thalass> | ustream is more stable for me ustream.tv/nasahdtv |
| 12:16 | <@Tarinaky> | http://techcrunch.com/2014/12/03/github-russia/ |
| 12:20 | <@Tarinaky> | In other news: Clickbait article called '5 technologies that have changed the nature of development jobs'... The invention of VCSoftware was not mentioned. |
| 12:21 | <@Tarinaky> | I imagine life was very different when you had to maintain manual changelists that didn't directly correspond 1:1 with source code. |
| 12:22 | <&McMartin> | It hasn't changed the nature of development jobs because too many people still don't use it~ |
| 12:22 | <@TheWatcher> | So very true ;.; |
| 12:22 | <@Tarinaky> | I mean, manual version control is only /barely/ 'good enough' for documents: a lot of folks have moved to VCS for documents now when the underlying formats are sufficiently textual. |
| 12:25 | <@Julius> | Hrm. I can see that suicide is a huge problem in Russia, but this doesn't seem like a way to solve it, or even help in any way. |
| 12:27 | <@Tarinaky> | It's also somewhat hypocritical since (apparently) the first method mentioned is that from a Tolstoy novel. |
| 12:27 | <@Tarinaky> | (sp?) |
| 12:28 | <@Julius> | Spelling is correct. |
| 12:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Can't remember the name of the novel... Anna Karenina or something. |
| 12:29 | <@Julius> | I'm not sure hypocritical is the correct word, though. |
| 12:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Has a 'pride and prejudice and zombies' version with robot maids I flicked through once. |
| 13:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Julius: I think hypocritical is the right word. |
| 13:00 | <@Tarinaky> | It's just a slightly secondary meaning. |
| 13:03 | <@Julius> | What secondary meaning? |
| 13:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Unduly critical. |
| 13:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Hypo- |
| 13:21 | <@Tarinaky> | -critical |
| 13:23 | <@Julius> | I still don't think it's appropriate. Here, I'd use whatever word is used to describe people who are legitimately worried, but neither understand the subject matter, nor have an idea how to fix it, and overreact. |
| 13:28 | <@Tarinaky> | Ignorant? |
| 13:28 | <@Julius> | Sure. |
| 13:54 | <@Tarinaky> | So... my top 5 technolgoies that have changed the way Developers work... |
| 13:58 | <@Tarinaky> | VCSoftware, Code Review, OOP, PDP-10 and err... Whatever the fancy word for whatever replaced some git sorting decks of punch cards to decide what order batch jobs should run. |
| 13:59 | <@Tarinaky> | Whatever replaced that. |
| 13:59 | <@Tarinaky> | The fact that I don't know how to refer to it by name speaks volumes to how much it's taken for granted :P |
| 14:01 | | thalass is now known as Thalasleep |
| 14:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Stupid question: How do you calculate a low-thrust transfer in a 2-body problem? |
| 14:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | What exactly do you mean by "low-thrust transfer"? |
| 14:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | Iterative Hohmann? Continuous burn as used by e.g. ion engines? Minimal delta-v? |
| 14:54 | <@Tarinaky> | An engine that has low thrust, being burned for the duration of a transfer orbit. |
| 14:54 | <@Tarinaky> | Or some approximation. |
| 14:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have no idea how to calculate that. |
| 14:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Iterative Hohmann is when you take several orbits, burning at the periapsis, before you get the right altitude, yes? |
| 15:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 15:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | And minimal dv probably ends up being some sort of bielliptic transfer. |
| 15:03 | <@Tarinaky> | The moon, is indeed a harsh mistress. |
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| 15:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, google appears to indicate the answer is in a Russian language journal :P |
| 15:26 | <@Tarinaky> | http://erps.spacegrant.org/uploads/images/images/iepc_articledownload_1988-2007/ 1997index/7160.pdf |
| 15:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Frustratingly, I almost understand this... but not quite. |
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| 15:43 | <@ErikMesoy> | Today's defining phrase: "A bank account is a financial account which by when recording the non-financial transactions between the customer and their bank and the resulting financial position of the bank with the customer." |
| 15:44 | <@ErikMesoy> | This phrase appears repeatedly, copypasted in exactly that mangled form, across at least six documents I read today and probably several hundred more if the rest of the folder contents follow the same pattern. Am I missing something, or is it horribly horribly mangled beyond what a typo or thinko would explain? |
| 15:45 | <@ErikMesoy> | I would very much like to believe that I'm missing some obvious interpretation, and that this isn't part of the Official Design Spec Thing at a Big International Banking Security Place. |
| 15:51 | <@Tarinaky> | Contractors? |
| 15:51 | <@Tarinaky> | There's no limit to the fuckery that Contractors can cause |
| 15:51 | <@ErikMesoy> | That sounds possible. |
| 15:52 | <@ErikMesoy> | Hopefully I will be able to discover the intended meaning of this phrase and push fixes to it. |
| 15:54 | <@ErikMesoy> | We have several months in which to find and fix crap like this before even moving from design spec to prototype tests, but that goddamn incomprehensible sentence really shouldn't have been written in the first place. But I guess that's what you get when hiring people who copypaste their documentation. |
| 15:57 | <@iospace> | comment of the day: "why is this here???? removing" |
| 15:58 | <@ErikMesoy> | is the thing actually removed? |
| 15:58 | <@ErikMesoy> | Or did they just comment it out? |
| 15:58 | <@iospace> | commented out |
| 16:18 | <@iospace> | ... self |
| 16:18 | <@iospace> | modifying |
| 16:18 | <@iospace> | bash scripts |
| 16:18 | <@Tarinaky> | Having a bad day? ;) |
| 16:19 | <@iospace> | Tarinaky: This codebase |
| 16:19 | <@iospace> | just... this codebase T_T |
| 16:19 | < [R]> | ErikMesoy: s/non-// makes it comprehensible. |
| 16:19 | < [R]> | That'd be a fairly simple thinko |
| 16:20 | <@Azash> | I think the "which by when" part is the WTF |
| 16:20 | < [R]> | Ah |
| 16:26 | < [R]> | Mathfags! I'm ending up with an equation like this: ((4 + 1) * 4 + 1) * 4 + 1 (3 steps); (((4 + 1) * 4 + 1) * 4 + 1) * 4 + 1 (4 steps) |
| 16:26 | < [R]> | Is there a simpler way to express or calculate it? |
| 16:26 | < [R]> | (For arbitrary number of steps) |
| 16:27 | <@Tarinaky> | "Mathfags" Objection. |
| 16:28 | < [R]> | Sorry cross-posted from another chan |
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| 16:30 | <@Tarinaky> | Stupid question: Why does C++ still not have a smart import statement? |
| 16:30 | <@Azash> | [R]: I suppose f(n) = f(n-1) * 4 + 1; f(1) = 5 |
| 16:31 | < [R]> | That works I guess |
| 16:31 | | * ErikMesoy notes it will always end in 1 or 5. |
| 16:33 | < [R]> | Only while the multiplier is 4 though. |
| 16:35 | < [R]> | If you're curious it's from an MTG deck I'm making. I can spawn a bunch of 1:1 creatures, that when killed pass their power to another creature (in +1:+1 counters), but I have something that doubles the +1:+1 counters given, sometimes multiple of them. |
| 16:43 | <@Azash> | http://www.sys-con.com/node/3251264 |
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| 18:36 | <@iospace> | infinite loops |
| 18:36 | <@iospace> | infinite loops /everywhere/ |
| 18:36 | <@iospace> | and this isn't even a daemon that has one! D< |
| 19:01 | <@celticminstrel> | Yay lambdas. |
| 19:03 | <@celticminstrel> | Makes it easy to use <algorithm>. |
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| 19:55 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: by a conspiring evolution of other conspiracies, I just discovered that you a) actually have a real middle name, b) it matches the nick, and c) I would not ever have guessed it |
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| 19:55 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: mind slightly reeling |
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| --- Log closed Thu Dec 04 19:59:12 2014 |
| --- Log opened Thu Dec 04 19:59:16 2014 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Dec 04 20:00:00 2014 |
| --- Log opened Thu Dec 04 20:00:08 2014 |
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| 20:41 | <@celticminstrel> | froztbyte: It's because lowercase C, right? |
| 20:41 | <@celticminstrel> | The never would've guessed part. |
| 20:42 | <@froztbyte> | celticminstrel: nah, I parsed it as "Michael" => "Mc" |
| 20:42 | <@froztbyte> | except nope! |
| 20:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 20:42 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin trolls us all |
| 20:53 | <&McMartin> | I was assigned the handle at first by the university system. |
| 20:54 | <&McMartin> | I wasn't even the only Michael C. Martin associated with the school at the time -_- |
| 20:54 | <&McMartin> | But the other one was a nuclear physicist so we didn't get each other's email nearly as much. |
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| 22:40 | < MantaWaffles> | So I made python do a fibonacci sequence infinitely. I was in the googles within minutes. |
| 22:41 | < MantaWaffles> | *indefinitely |
| 22:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah it does that. |
| 22:46 | <@ErikMesoy> | How recursively did you do it? |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | The fun way is to do it with generators |
| 23:15 | < MantaWaffles> | If I remember correctly... (hold on, let me type it out) |
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| 23:15 | < MantaWaffles> | a,b=0,1 |
| 23:15 | < MantaWaffles> | while b>0 |
| 23:16 | < MantaWaffles> | print(b) |
| 23:16 | < MantaWaffles> | a,b=b,a+b |
| 23:16 | < MantaWaffles> | Enter |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | Aha |
| 23:17 | < MantaWaffles> | Oops, forgot the ':' after while b>0 |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I was thinking "like that with a function that yields b instead of printing it" |
| 23:18 | < MantaWaffles> | So... I don't know much in the way of Python. What tutorials would you all suggest? |
| 23:19 | <@gnolam> | The official ones. |
| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | I'm actually a big fan of the official tutorial on-site. |
| 23:20 | <@gnolam> | MantaWaffles: https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html |
| 23:20 | < MantaWaffles> | Ok. I just didn't know if there were any better ones out there. I got confused after the "An informal introduction to Python" section. |
| 23:20 | < MantaWaffles> | Thanks. |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | MantaWaffles: And if you're learning Python 2 instead of 3, replace the "3" there with "2" |
| 23:22 | < MantaWaffles> | I chose 3, because it's still being updated, and it's supposedly better for newbies. |
| 23:22 | | * McMartin nods |
| 23:23 | <&McMartin> | Mnnn. Generators aren't as transparent as I'd like in 2 *or* 3 |
| 23:23 | < MantaWaffles> | Things started getting confusing here: https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html |
| 23:23 | | * McMartin <-- spoiled by Haskell |
| 23:23 | <@gnolam> | MantaWaffles: What's your previous programming experience? |
| 23:24 | < MantaWaffles> | Not much. A 20 minute html lesson four years ago. I've used GameSalad a little bit, but that doesn't count. |
| 23:24 | | * McMartin nods |
| 23:24 | < MantaWaffles> | So, I know next to nothing. |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | OK, yeah, in that case the official tutorial will be moving a little faster than you might be comfortable with |
| 23:25 | < MantaWaffles> | How did you all learn? |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | The joke answer is "trained from birth by a secretive ninja clan" but the unpleasant part is that this is not *that* far from the truth, which means I don't have directly useful pointers |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | I learned as a young child on 8-bit microcomputer BASICs. |
| 23:26 | < MantaWaffles> | eheheh ^^; |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | Which actually share an uncanny amount in common *with* Python |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | And did a lot of stuff in that like typing in programs out of books and magazines and poking at them to see how they work &c |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | I mean |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | I *can* in fact point you to a Commodore 64 emulator and the books and reference manuals I learned from |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | But I can't shake the feeling that there's gotta be a better way |
| 23:28 | < MantaWaffles> | I'm sure there is. I can eventually figure out the python tutorial, it'll just be frustrating. |
| 23:28 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 23:29 | <&McMartin> | I see an additional link to https://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide |
| 23:30 | <&McMartin> | This includes some subpages for "learning programming by learning python" |
| 23:30 | < MantaWaffles> | I also found this, which is rather nice: http://www.sthurlow.com/python/ |
| 23:30 | < MantaWaffles> | so far |
| 23:31 | < MantaWaffles> | Ooh, the wiki you just gave me has tons of links. |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | I haven't looked 'em over so I can't give more focused recommendations |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | But, well, there are a lot of links there >_> |
| 23:32 | < MantaWaffles> | Thanks. |
| 23:33 | <@gnolam> | Python should be close to optimal as a first language (unless you're of the "give people a copy of SICP and let them figure it out for themselves" crowd~)... but unfortunately, my experience with teaching it is limited to people who have at least some practical experience programming. |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | gnolam: The authors of SICP have been pushing to shift that course over to Python |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | So *even if you are in that crowd* Python still is clearly close to optimal~ |
| 23:33 | <@gnolam> | Oh? Didn't know. |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | I only hear rumors |
| 23:34 | <&McMartin> | (But yeah, I cut my CS teeth on SICP and love the Hell out of it - but it's for teaching *computer science*, not programming) |
| 23:36 | <@gnolam> | Yeah. And it's a good early course for the sheer mindfuck factor. Even if you come in with previous programming experience, chances are it's not in a LISP - and it helps take the focus from "programming" to "actual computer science". |
| 23:37 | < MantaWaffles> | What's the diff? |
| 23:39 | <&McMartin> | CS is properly a branch of philosophy that lives in engineering schools |
| 23:40 | <&McMartin> | It's the stuff that goes into theory of computation and organization of information in ways that make it easier to compute things about it, etc |
| 23:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | CS is applied philosphy; programming is using that to command computers. |
| 23:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Kind of like the difference between physics and engineering. |
| 23:40 | <&McMartin> | The line is fuzzier though because there's not much else you can do with CS besides command computers better with it |
| 23:41 | <&McMartin> | There doesn't seem to be a lot of overlap between CS and, oh, operations research which would be the closest analogue to, say, manufacturing floors |
| 23:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, you can reason about what the bounds are on commanding computers -- computability theory and whatnot |
| 23:41 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. That's only a corner of what I think of as CS though |
| 23:42 | < MantaWaffles> | Hm. |
| 23:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which I guess in this analogy would be, say, figuring out whether it is physically possible to actually build that bridge |
| 23:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | But yes. |
| 23:42 | <&McMartin> | Right. This also makes the metaphor break down a little |
| 23:42 | <&McMartin> | Because a solid CS grounding will make you a better architect~ |
| 23:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Right. |
| 23:43 | | * ToxicFrog upreads |
| 23:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | I was also trained from birth by a secretive ninja clan, as it were, although I came to python much later |
| 23:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | But at that point I already had extensive experience with similar languages so I was able to get by with the reference manual and some existing code |
| 23:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | But yes, the on-site tutorials are pretty good and you can always ask questions about them in here :) |
| 23:45 | < MantaWaffles> | ^-^ |
| 23:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've been doing a lot of python at work lately, but it's all python 2 and a lot of it is one-shot tools and thus pretty sloppy |
| 23:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tomorrow I get to figure out who has recently offended me and send them a 15,000 line change to review~ |
| 23:48 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: Now that I've taken another look at the official tutorial |
| 23:48 | <&McMartin> | It goes *very* fast through things like already assuming you know what branches and loops are |
| 23:48 | < MantaWaffles> | Yeah... hehe ^^; |
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| 23:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | The other thing I've heard recommended for total newbies is Learn Python The Hard Way, but I haven't read it myself |
| 23:51 | <&McMartin> | That particular tutorial is brimming over with sneering contempt for Python 3 which is the dialect MW is learning |
| 23:51 | <&McMartin> | So not really on point here |
| 23:51 | <&McMartin> | Also if MW is on Windows doing this LPtHW's instructions for Windows environments are *calamitous* |
| 23:52 | <&McMartin> | (As in, "use PowerShell for all your interaction with the OS" calamitous) |
| 23:52 | <@gnolam> | ... |
| 23:53 | <@gnolam> | I'm getting an idea of what kind of person wrote it. |
| 23:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: aah. |
| 23:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Never mind, then |
| 23:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | (what do you use for python on windows? ActivePython? I've only used it via cygwin.) |
| 23:54 | <&McMartin> | There is an official Windows distribution |
| 23:54 | < MantaWaffles> | Unopinionated tutorials are ideal. |
| 23:54 | <&McMartin> | You can run it directly in cmd.exe, or you can run IDLE |
| 23:54 | <&McMartin> | IDLE is probably the best way to get a convenient REPL. |
| 23:54 | < MantaWaffles> | I run IDLE because I don't know the difference and it's bigger. |
| 23:54 | <&McMartin> | It's also got better handling of cursor support |
| 23:54 | <&McMartin> | Python.exe will get way better once Windows 10 comes out and cmd.exe stops being awful |
| 23:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | That is the correct choice; cmd.exe is both an architectural and UX trainwreck. |
| 23:55 | < MantaWaffles> | ... Windows 10??? |
| 23:55 | <&McMartin> | TF: Anyway, the amazing and glorious thing about Windows Python is that it basically actually works off the shelf. |
| 23:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | MantaWaffles: was announced a while ago, yes |
| 23:55 | <&McMartin> | (They're skipping 9) |
| 23:56 | < MantaWaffles> | Hmm. |
| 23:56 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, basically if you write a python script you invoke it with Python.exe and it runs in a cmd.exe window |
| 23:56 | < MantaWaffles> | Am I correct to assume that they are revising the horrible wreck of 8? |
| 23:56 | <&McMartin> | Or you invoke it with Pythonw.exe and it runs without one (useful for servers, GUI apps) |
| 23:56 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, the general hope is that it will be the 7 to 8's Vista. |
| 23:57 | <&McMartin> | http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/09/windows-10-command-prompt- finally-gets-dragged-into-the-21st-century/ |
| 23:57 | < MantaWaffles> | I'm going to be upgrading my laptop here from vista to 7 pretty soon here. |
| 23:57 | <&McMartin> | This has been overdue since, like, Windows XP |
| 23:57 | <&McMartin> | I suspect 7 will have some very good staying power |
| 23:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: holy shit, terminal emulation on windows finally catches up to the 1980s |
| 23:58 | <&McMartin> | I used Linux in the 1990s |
| 23:58 | <&McMartin> | I have *dark memories*. |
| 23:58 | < MantaWaffles> | :D |
| 23:58 | <&McMartin> | Maybe there existed good ones back then, but they absolutely were not universal >_< |
| 23:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | And yeah, I'm planning to just keep rocking 7 until they EOL it, or until I can finally ditch it entirely for linux. |
| 23:59 | <@Reiv> | ToxicFrog: You're hoping to skip Win10 completely? |
| 23:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: everything they described in that article is a standard feature of xterm, released thirty years ago |
| --- Log closed Fri Dec 05 00:00:00 2014 |