| --- Log opened Wed Oct 29 00:00:56 2014 |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/screenshots/fate.png |
| 00:25 | <~Vornicus> | hahaha |
| 00:27 | | iospace is now known as io\crashed |
| 00:30 | <@io\crashed> | you guys know how I had that state of mania going on earlier? Yeah, massive downswing Dx |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | D: |
| 00:35 | <@io\crashed> | I'm not surprised |
| 00:37 | <~Vornicus> | D: |
| 00:45 | <@Tamber> | Rasmfrasm sonofa bassum. Quit exploding, rake. |
| 00:49 | <@Tamber> | I am way too tired, and have way to little experience with Ruby, to be understanding why this is dying. :( |
| 00:50 | <@Tamber> | (...okay, well, I have a general idea of why it's dying, from the backtrace; but still, /I'm trying to install this exactly how the quick start says to, it should woooooooork/~) |
| 00:58 | <@Tamber> | ...ahahahaha |
| 00:59 | <@Tamber> | Apparently, the reason it was dying is that my version of rubygems was too old (It wanted >=2.1.0); and it couldn't tell me that. :/ |
| 01:11 | <~Vornicus> | rake is about the only thing about Ruby I liked |
| 01:15 | | * Tamber curses profusely. |
| 01:17 | <@Tamber> | Version of rubygems in tree demands target of ruby 1.9. All the stuff I need to play with Huginn needs 2.0. *frown* |
| 01:17 | | * Tamber sets it all on fire, decides to leave the ashes until tomorrow. |
| 01:18 | <~Vornicus> | wtfx |
| 01:46 | <@Tamber> | ...okay, I didn't set it on fire; but I did the perhaps not totally recommended thing and updated around the package manager. So it'll all fall to pieces next time the distro tree stuff updates; but I'll have gotten bored of it by then anyway~ |
| 01:59 | | Reiv [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-q8avec.kinect.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 01:59 | | mode/#code [+o Reiv] by ChanServ |
| 02:00 | <~Vornicus> | (rake was cool because you could set up custom command types and use loops to control them; I had a thing that ate a single .ps file and produced 96 pngs off it) |
| 02:03 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 02:05 | <~Vornicus> | (mmm, correction, 108, but) |
| 02:06 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-6i5vf7.sta.comporium.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Program Shutting down] |
| 02:07 | <@Reiv> | VORN |
| 02:07 | <@Reiv> | I have math |
| 02:07 | <@Reiv> | But everyone else on the internet has already done it |
| 02:08 | <@Reiv> | I feel strange :/ |
| 02:09 | <@Reiv> | But then the math gets tricky, and bah |
| 02:12 | <~Vornicus> | Okay show me |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | REIV |
| 02:14 | <@Reiv> | eep |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | You have "Teleglitch: Die More Edition" on your wishlist. |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | It is free on humblebundle.com right now. |
| 02:14 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: I do! |
| 02:14 | <@Reiv> | ... I will soon have it then! |
| 02:14 | <@Reiv> | Vornicus: Are you familiar with Xwing: The minatures game |
| 02:14 | <@Reiv> | If not, you should be, it is fantastique |
| 02:15 | | * Alek LOOKS. |
| 02:15 | <@Reiv> | (Abliet for a quirk of design that is both fantastic and wonderful yet one would suspect to be highly cynical of the designers in question) |
| 02:15 | <~Vornicus> | I am not; miniatures games in general are not in my wheelhouse |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | I however am, so let's hear it |
| 02:16 | <@Reiv> | Said quirk being that this is a minatures game where you can buy one mini and play it with multiple dudes and multiple upgrades, instead of the, ahem, Games Workshop approach where if you want a hero, you buy the model, yesiree |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | Pilot cards |
| 02:16 | <@Reiv> | This is wonderful until you realise that the card you want on your TIE fighter comes with the Xwing pack or something, so everyone ends up collecting both sides just to get the right loadouts~ |
| 02:16 | <@Reiv> | Anyway |
| 02:16 | <@Reiv> | If you're not familiar... hm, this gets tricky |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | (and it still costs 5% to own all sides than it does to field One Army in any other minis game) |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | That also reminds me |
| 02:17 | <@Reiv> | (But I don't /want/ to buy a pair of E-wings, I just want one of their upgrade cards ;_;) |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | EAT ON A BOAT |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | That reminds me though |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | I need to get cracking on laundry and IFComp entries for the night so I can start doing Soontir Fel impersonations |
| 02:18 | <@Reiv> | haha what |
| 02:18 | <~Vornicus> | Yo dawg, I herd you like reminders |
| 02:18 | <@Reiv> | Why are you impersonating Soontir Fel |
| 02:18 | <@Reiv> | I mean he's awesome don't get me wrong and all but~ |
| 02:18 | <~Vornicus> | Anyway. Math at me, that I might math back |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | Because TIE Fighter was just released on GOG and there is a REASON I was promptly assigned PTL Soontir when I walked up to the table to lern2play. |
| 02:18 | <@Reiv> | Aside: The very math I wish to deal with actually has Soontir Fel as a primary target! |
| 02:19 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: hahaha sweet |
| 02:19 | <@Reiv> | (PTL Soontir Fel: Awesome, until Orthia bloody well rolls three hits on the %$#@! ion cannon.) |
| 02:19 | | * McMartin - most annoying TIE Interceptor pilot on the dorm floor on XvT nights) |
| 02:19 | <@Reiv> | (And then I don't have Soontir Fel next turn. ;_;) |
| 02:19 | <@Orthia> | hehehe! |
| 02:19 | <~Vornicus> | enough QQ, tell me what's up |
| 02:19 | <@Reiv> | OK |
| 02:20 | <@Reiv> | So, hm, First I have to explain the mechanics of the game, shit |
| 02:20 | <@Reiv> | Opposed d8 die pools |
| 02:20 | | * Alek may donate $12 to the current bundle in about a week, if it's still here then. |
| 02:20 | <@Reiv> | Attack dice has 3 hits, 1 crit, 2 eyes. Defense die has 3 dodge, 2 eyes. |
| 02:21 | <@Reiv> | You roll X attack dice, count up the hits and crits you have, and then defense rolls X defense dice, count up the evades, and subtract them from the hits and crits (in that order, so crits are more likely to sneak through if there's hits backing them up). |
| 02:22 | <@Reiv> | During play, you move+choose action, then shoot. |
| 02:22 | <~Vornicus> | So an attack die has two blank sides, and a defense die has 3 blank sides? |
| 02:22 | <@Reiv> | Correct |
| 02:23 | <@Reiv> | One of the actions you get to rock is Focus, which lets you discard the token during the shooting phase to turn the eyes on one roll of the dice to hits (if attack) or dodge (if evades). |
| 02:24 | <~Vornicus> | "discard the token"? |
| 02:24 | <@Reiv> | Oh, sorry. Focus action gives you a Focus token. |
| 02:24 | <@Reiv> | Later that turn you can throw it away to turn eyes to something useful. |
| 02:24 | <@Reiv> | Throw it away at the end. |
| 02:25 | <~Vornicus> | ok. |
| 02:25 | <@Reiv> | (IE, you can use it once, and you have to use it that turn.) |
| 02:25 | <@Reiv> | (There is a highly amusing droid that lets you throw it away at the end of your turn to regenerate 1 shield, but nevermind that >_>) |
| 02:25 | <&McMartin> | (Doesn't... no, wait) |
| 02:26 | <~Vornicus> | Do the turns interlock? |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | (Keyan spends stress tokens, doesn't he) |
| 02:26 | <@Reiv> | (He surely does, and is hilarious) |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | (He is also the canonical protagonist of X-Wing, which *also* came out in rerelease today) |
| 02:26 | <@Reiv> | Vornicus: Yeah, they're semi-simultaneous. Each pilot has a Pilot rating; movement + actions goes lowest-highest; shooting is highest-lowest. |
| 02:27 | <@Reiv> | So a high Pilot Skill ships can blow apart Academy Pilot TIEs before they ever got to shoot back. |
| 02:27 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 02:27 | <@Reiv> | But that said, a rookie pilot can bumble into the middle of a dogfight and have all the veterans collide with him >_> |
| 02:27 | <&McMartin> | Yeeeees. |
| 02:28 | <@Reiv> | (Colliding with another ship is rather worse for the collider than the collidee) |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | Also TIEs have a fairly high minimum speed so I did once end up repeatedly bouncing off Luke's tailpipe |
| 02:28 | <@Reiv> | ((We will ignore the capital ships for now, peanut gallery)) |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | ("KNOCK IT OFF" "I CAN'T HELP IT, WE TOOK OUT THE GUY WITH THE ION CANNON") |
| 02:30 | <@Alek> | waaat. minimum speed for fighters? |
| 02:31 | <@Alek> | how do they land without a tractor beam? |
| 02:31 | | * Reiv sigh |
| 02:31 | <@Reiv> | This is a wargame, Alek |
| 02:31 | <@Reiv> | Not a simulation :P |
| 02:31 | <@Alek> | I know, but that still bugs me. |
| 02:31 | <@Reiv> | I could explain how that all works, but go look up a youtube instead. |
| 02:31 | <@Alek> | couldn't there be potential tactical situations where it'd help to be able to move even slower? |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | Alek: TIEs *do* land with tractor beams. |
| 02:31 | <~Vornicus> | I suspect you'd need tractors anyway to get into atmosphere-shielded shuttle bays! |
| 02:32 | <@Reiv> | Alek: Yes, and the slower ships exploit this |
| 02:32 | <@Alek> | McM: fairly sure in the EU they've landed on pads and in the jungle. |
| 02:32 | <~Vornicus> | Anyway |
| 02:32 | <@Reiv> | OK |
| 02:32 | <@Reiv> | This is a board/war game |
| 02:32 | | * Alek shrugs. |
| 02:32 | <~Vornicus> | Alek: they land on pads in RotJ |
| 02:32 | <@Alek> | yeah, ok, I'll leave you to it. |
| 02:32 | <@Reiv> | This is not a realistic simulation of the entire EU. If you're curious, go look up "Xwing Manouver dial" |
| 02:33 | <@Reiv> | One of the other options as an action is (with rules around how you aquire the things, but whatever) Target Lock, which gives you and an opponent a set of Target Lock tokens, so you can track which ship you've got locked. You can then discard this token to reroll attack dice of your choice. |
| 02:34 | <@Reiv> | The math works out that Focus on an attack is p. much equivalent to spending a Target Lock; but the Focus is more versatile whilst the Target Lock can be saved for a later turn. |
| 02:35 | <~Vornicus> | And this is the math you wish to actually see? |
| 02:35 | <~Vornicus> | Do crits do more damage than hits? |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | He mentioned Soontir, but hasn't mentioned his power |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | I have a guess for what the question is >_> |
| 02:36 | <@Reiv> | A final action (that we will work with today) is Evade: The token lasts till the end of the round, but you can spend it to add one automatic Dodge to an evade roll. |
| 02:37 | <@Reiv> | This works out to always be better than a Focus unless you have, like, more dice than you actually get. |
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| 02:37 | <&McMartin> | It's equivalent at 4 dice thrown, IIRC |
| 02:37 | <@Reiv> | Aha, yeah that sounds about right |
| 02:37 | <@Reiv> | So anyway, that's the basics of how you modify these shooty dice. |
| 02:38 | <@Reiv> | Actual dice ranges tend to be between 1-4 on either side of the pile; certain rare ships can hit 5 attack, and fewer still can hit 5 defense, but it's occasionally possible (if not relevant today). |
| 02:38 | <~Vornicus> | Okay so let me make sure here: you have 1. focus (convert eyes to hits/dodges), 2. target lock (reroll misses), 3. evade (+1 dodge) |
| 02:38 | <&McMartin> | (We should tell him about C-3PO) |
| 02:39 | <@Reiv> | Correct |
| 02:39 | <@Reiv> | (Oh god no, be nice to the man) |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | (Not for the math, but because it is hilarious) |
| 02:39 | <@Reiv> | (... Yeah, OK then~) |
| 02:40 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: Tell him about C3PO |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | C-3PO: Before rolling evade dice, announce a number. If you roll that many evades, you get a free evade. |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | In Soviet X-Wing, YOU tell C-3PO the odds! |
| 02:40 | <~Vornicus> | You then have attack dice (3/8 hit, 1/8 crit, 2/8 eye) and defense dice (3/8 dodge, 2/8 eye); attacks are resolved by opposed pool rolls; a dodge cancels hits first and then crits. |
| 02:41 | <~Vornicus> | Unresolved questions: what do crits do that regular hits don't |
| 02:41 | <~Vornicus> | hahaha |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | You draw cards from a damage deck that have a variety of Exciting Effects. |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | They can disable your pilot or enhancement specific powers, or mess with your maneuver dial, or do extra damage, or whatnot. |
| 02:42 | <~Vornicus> | Whereas plain hits don't touch the damage deck? |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | The backs of the damage deck are pictures of explosions |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | regular damage is dealt face down, crits face up |
| 02:42 | <~Vornicus> | Okay so -- gotcha |
| 02:42 | <~Vornicus> | (clever) |
| 02:42 | <@Reiv> | Certain shenanigans can flip a card either way. |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | Damage to shields removes shield tokens instead of dealing cards. |
| 02:43 | <@Reiv> | It gets better - you have Shield tokens. If you'd take a damage card but have a shield token, lose the token instead. |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | A crit on a shield is basically wasted. |
| 02:43 | <@Reiv> | Thus they're Basically Hitpoints, but immune to crits while they last. |
| 02:43 | <@Reiv> | (Sorta. More shenanigans, etc) |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | (Grrr, Luke + R2) |
| 02:44 | <@Reiv> | As a more extreme example of how the system gets cheerfully messed around with, Soontir Fel with the Push the Limit upgrade gets to take *two* actions, become Stressed (Which limits your move options next turn if you want to get rid of it),... and then, because he's Soontir Fel, take a Focus token for having been stressed. |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | Soontir Fel is a coffee achiever. |
| 02:44 | <@Reiv> | So he can, if he wants to be tanky, declare he'll Push the Limit to take both an Evade and a Focus token... and for his trouble, take an extra Focus token. |
| 02:44 | <@Reiv> | This is a TIE interceptor with 3 evade dice. |
| 02:44 | <@Reiv> | People get a little irritated at shooting at this. >_> |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | Not only that |
| 02:45 | <@Reiv> | Most ships throw 2-3 dice standard. |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | But the TIE Intercept has a preposterously broad maneuver dial and nearly all of it has the side effect "lose a stress token" |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | IIRC only the A-Wing is more chill |
| 02:45 | <@Reiv> | Yep |
| 02:45 | <~Vornicus> | anyway. Goal here is to work out -- if I understand correctly -- how focus vs target lock vs evade do |
| 02:46 | <@Reiv> | It would be, but that math's been done |
| 02:46 | <~Vornicus> | Okay |
| 02:46 | <~Vornicus> | Then? |
| 02:46 | <@Reiv> | I just wanted you to comprehend what the table meant before I threw in the really funky shit |
| 02:46 | <~Vornicus> | Okay |
| 02:47 | <@Reiv> | http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/915146/math-wing-hit-probabilities |
| 02:47 | <@Reiv> | Now, one last bit for today: Ranges. When you shoot, you use a ruler to work out which range band you're shooting in. |
| 02:47 | <@Reiv> | Range 1: +1 Attack die. Range 2: No change. Range 3: +1 Defense die. |
| 02:48 | <~Vornicus> | Okay |
| 02:50 | <@Reiv> | So, this means that a B-wing, with 1 Evade and 3 attack and 3 hull and /five fucking shields what/ can, at Range 1, spit out 4 dice on the offense, but pretty much has to tank the returning fire. |
| 02:50 | <@Reiv> | Soontir Fel, with 3 Evade, 3 Attack, 3 Hull and no shields whatsoever, would prefer to either a) completely avoid being shot at through fancy flying, or b) tank up with a million tokens and try to dodge everything, ever. |
| 02:51 | <@Reiv> | He'll take a longer time to kill something in return for better odds of not being shot. |
| 02:51 | <@Reiv> | We now break out the hilarity and curiosity: The Autoblaster. |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | OK, this did *not* go where I expected |
| 02:51 | | * Reiv giggles |
| 02:52 | <@Reiv> | I've already seen the math on Soontir Fel ¬¬ |
| 02:52 | <@Reiv> | He is a pain in the butt as long as dice don't completely hate you~ |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I was expecting the precise math on how best to joust with a crazy PTL Soontir |
| 02:52 | <@Reiv> | That's, uh |
| 02:52 | <@Reiv> | "Lots of ships shooting at once, his bonuses only work once" |
| 02:52 | < Harlow> | ok optimizing assembly is really not fun. |
| 02:53 | <@Reiv> | Range 1 only, 3 dice at Range 1, and your hits dice ignore all dodge effects. Your crits can still be canceled. |
| 02:53 | <&McMartin> | Harlow: truth -_- |
| 02:53 | <&McMartin> | Which kind? |
| 02:53 | <~Vornicus> | This is why you let your compiler do it~ |
| 02:53 | < Harlow> | Y86 |
| 02:53 | <&McMartin> | I am unfamiliar with that one. |
| 02:53 | <@Reiv> | So! This is where it gets fun! |
| 02:53 | < Harlow> | eh its a training language it doesn't even have a lot of shit that regular asm codes have |
| 02:54 | <@Reiv> | The math has been done on the Autoblaster already, and the general conclusion was "Unless you're facing an explicitly dodge-heavy opponent, the four regular dice are still better than three fancy dice that cost 5% of your army list to field" |
| 02:54 | < Harlow> | lets put it this way it usually has to move a memory location to a reg to do any operations with it. |
| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | Harlow: That's... not hugely unusual |
| 02:54 | <@Reiv> | Part of this was "It especially sucks if they have an Evade token, because that all but negates your damage output anyway." |
| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | The PS1 and PS2 chip had that property |
| 02:54 | < Harlow> | really? |
| 02:54 | < Harlow> | ah |
| 02:55 | <@Reiv> | The punchline: A FAQ came out. |
| 02:55 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, MIPS had 32 registers and everything fun happens in those as part of the "make the chip simple so you can crank the Hell out of the clock rate with a super-short pipeline" design plan |
| 02:55 | <@Reiv> | http://teamcovenant.com/theorist/2013/10/02/second-look-autoblaster/ was written with the original interpretation, you see. |
| 02:55 | < Harlow> | well its RISC so i guess anything else that was RISC would be similar. |
| 02:55 | <@Reiv> | Now the FAQ states that Autoblasters ignore Evade tokens as if they were a rolled dodge. |
| 02:55 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, MIPS was the first "real" RISC chip, IIRC. |
| 02:55 | <@Reiv> | I'm curious just how far the math in that post gets screwed by "Yeah, this thing shoots past Evades now". |
| 02:56 | < Harlow> | What I'm trying to figure out is how to effectively use a switch in my program and its not working so well. |
| 02:56 | < Harlow> | i mean it would be great to shove this thing though a switch, but its difficult to tell how it is going to work. |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | Harlow: Your options are basically 'chain of if/else if' or 'computed goto' which usually means 'array of addresses that you load from and then jump to' |
| 02:58 | < Harlow> | yeah i know but I'm doing loop unrolling, so i would like to use Modulo but no |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | Oh man |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | OK, you should look at "Duff's Device" then |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | It's crazy bad place but it has its place |
| 02:59 | <@celticminstrel> | Does anyone else think this comment is wrong? https://github.com/CelticMinstrel/malandread/blob/master/entities/Item.js#L31 |
| 02:59 | <@Reiv> | Vornicus: So yeah, that's my curiosity. |
| 02:59 | <@Reiv> | It's a funky curiosity. |
| 02:59 | <@Reiv> | I'll admit that much out of the gate~ |
| 03:00 | < Harlow> | http://pastebin.com/z6ANPTBP |
| 03:00 | < Harlow> | i mean its not that bad its small as hell, but i need to get a certain efficiency out of it. |
| 03:01 | < Harlow> | 9.87 cpe is the record i wanted to break that, and if this damn y86 had modulo i probably could. |
| 03:05 | <@celticminstrel> | It doesn't seem to be right. |
| 03:05 | <~Vornicus> | Okay so wait |
| 03:06 | <~Vornicus> | The autoblaster is a 3-die attack, hits are undodgeable |
| 03:06 | <~Vornicus> | You want to compare this to a 4-die attack, regular hits |
| 03:06 | <~Vornicus> | In the presence of an evade token. |
| 03:07 | <~Vornicus> | and it was originally thought that an evade token would count as a trumping dodge: it would *also* negate a hit. |
| 03:07 | <~Vornicus> | But now it is not. |
| 03:09 | <~Vornicus> | Correct? |
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| 03:17 | <@Reiv> | Correct |
| 03:18 | <@Reiv> | It was thought that evade would negate even against Autoblaster, but now it's become FAQ'd that nope, Autoblaster shoots past it. |
| 03:18 | <@Reiv> | Which... could mean a very bad day indeed for an awful lot of pilots, and Soontir Fel may decide that Range 1 against B-wings is Bad Touch territory after all. ;-) |
| 03:20 | <&McMartin> | That's designed specifically to stomp Imperials, I think~ |
| 03:21 | <~Vornicus> | Okay. Step 1: draw up probabilities for the various defense levels, including focus |
| 03:21 | <~Vornicus> | and step 2: attack levels |
| 03:22 | <&McMartin> | There are several monte carlo apps for this |
| 03:22 | <&McMartin> | I've seen them in use |
| 03:23 | <~Vornicus> | I can do these outright |
| 03:23 | <~Vornicus> | shit they're all terminating in binary, I don't even have to get out anything fancier than float to handle them |
| 03:36 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: Let's be fair, the gun is Range 1 and 5 points |
| 03:36 | <@Reiv> | It is solidly in the "If you can get this to work, it had better be the unholy buzzsaw of doom" category |
| 03:36 | <@Reiv> | (The new Autoblaster Turret is going to be... interesting. 2 dice, range 1.) |
| 03:37 | <@Reiv> | ((For Vorn's benefit: Special weapons such as autoblasters, ion turrets, missiles & torpedos igonre range bonus/penalties, for whatever reason.) |
| 03:38 | <~Vornicus> | (ok) |
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| 03:52 | <@Reiv> | (This mostly matters on torpedos, which promptly shoot out to range 3 with no defensive boost. Were they all about 1pt cheaper, they'd be awesome~) |
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| 03:53 | <~Vornicus> | Ok. I'm going to poke at this tomorrow night. I need sleep right now. |
| 03:53 | <@Reiv> | Night, Vorn! |
| 03:53 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: ... aw, was there like half an hour left on the Teleglitch deal or something? |
| 03:53 | <@Alek> | wait, what? |
| 03:53 | <@Alek> | I got it just fine o_o |
| 03:54 | <@Reiv> | it's coming ups as twelve bucks in the store for me |
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| 04:13 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: Main Humble page, scroll down a bit |
| 04:14 | <@Reiv> | ah! |
| 04:14 | <@Reiv> | Thank you! |
| 04:14 | <@Reiv> | I hadn't looked twice at the bundle, and assumed 'free' meant 'in the store' |
| 04:14 | <@Reiv> | (Bundle good. As is so often the case though, I own half of it, am ambilavalent or hostile to the other half.) |
| 04:18 | | * McMartin runs the first five levels in the Proving Ground in one run. |
| 04:18 | | * McMartin also shot over 300 targets. |
| 04:18 | <&McMartin> | Still got it~ |
| 04:19 | <@Reiv> | niiice |
| 04:19 | <@Reiv> | Quietly kinda sorta hoping that the Xwing stuff ends up leading to a sequel |
| 04:20 | <@Reiv> | There's already two shiny engines out there, and the benefit of reduced asset costs is nontrivial! |
| 04:20 | <@Reiv> | (Which is to say, "You are not generally spending tens of thousands of dollars on dozens of individual maps that get played through within the hour for the campaign") |
| 04:21 | <@Reiv> | (... trench run aside, I guess) |
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| 07:35 | | * Reiv finds that FFG released a 10 minute long tutorial, grumbles vaugely that it took him the better part of 10 minutes to type the Xwing rules out >_> |
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| 07:39 | < Julius> | What are you talking about? |
| 07:39 | <@Reiv> | I was getting Vorn to do some math for me |
| 07:39 | <@Reiv> | Which required me to explain how the dice worked first |
| 07:39 | <@Reiv> | This required explaining a large chunk of the system itself first. |
| 07:42 | <@Reiv> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuhwSma960Y gives a pretty good explanation. A little dumbed down, but these are normal, no? |
| 07:42 | < Julius> | I'm at work. |
| 07:42 | <@Reiv> | Fair enough |
| 07:42 | <@Reiv> | Do you know Xwing? |
| 07:43 | < Julius> | The spaceplanes that Luke Skywalker flew? |
| 07:43 | | * Reiv ahems |
| 07:43 | <@Reiv> | Do you know Xwing: The minatures game? |
| 07:44 | < Julius> | No. |
| 07:44 | <@Reiv> | Right then |
| 07:44 | <@Reiv> | Xwings shoot TIE fighters by rolling dice and then the other guy rolling dice to dodge. The key to making the system clever is that you choose your movement orders in secret, simultaneously. |
| 07:45 | <@Reiv> | So you can designate that your Xwing is making a 45 degree turn to the left at speed '2' or whatever, and hope like hell this leaves him in a position to shoot his guns at the other side, preferably without being shot back. |
| 07:46 | <@Reiv> | You then move them by touching cardboard templates to the ships 1" square base, and then putting the ship on the other end of said template. |
| 07:46 | <@Reiv> | So, uh, a wargame without tape measures, I suppose. A vast saving of hassle. :p |
| 07:47 | <@Reiv> | The depth comes about by the fact that there's a whole bunch of different ship options and pilots out there, and you're building squads in classic wargaming fashion. The special abilities can make the math complicated. |
| 07:49 | < Julius> | I see. |
| 07:52 | <@TheWatcher> | xwing: the minatures game. |
| 07:52 | <@TheWatcher> | I should not be surprised, I guess. |
| 07:53 | < Julius> | No, you shouldn't. Almost everything conceivable is produced with a Star Wars theme. |
| 07:54 | <@TheWatcher> | "Spaceballs-the T-shirt, Spaceballs-the Coloring Book, Spaceballs-the Lunch box, Spaceballs-the Breakfast Cereal, Spaceballs-the Flame Thrower." >.> |
| 07:55 | <&McMartin> | XW:tMG is basically a souped-up version of Wings of War |
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| 08:27 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 08:27 | <@Reiv> | And frankly, better for it |
| 08:27 | <@Reiv> | Wings of War was a neat system, but hampered by WWI airplanes being... hm |
| 08:27 | <@Reiv> | Something of a niche. |
| 08:27 | <@Reiv> | Which in turn impacted their sales, which impacted their per-unit costs |
| 08:28 | <@Reiv> | You can spend $200 and have pretty much One Of Everything but for the big stuff, and a couple of those besides. |
| 08:28 | <@Reiv> | Wings of War, that bought you starter set and maybe two or three extras. |
| 08:29 | <@Reiv> | The brand is a big part of the draw, and the game is better (ie cheaper) for it. |
| 08:29 | <@Reiv> | It also cleans up some of the mechanics via the brazen cheating of "We can afford all the cardboard in the world, so skip the fiddly cards" stuff |
| 08:29 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: Have you played Wings of War, for reference? |
| 08:30 | <@Reiv> | Their manouvers were printed on cards. You had a deck of cards per plane. This... worked, but movement was never as clean as a cardboard template, and, uh, "whoops, there goes my sorted decks" was a very real problem~ |
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| 09:23 | <@Azash> | One should never second-guess |
| 09:23 | <@Azash> | Got a nagios alert |
| 09:23 | <@Azash> | "Oh great, another stupid warning about how an HTTP request took two seconds longer than usual" |
| 09:23 | <@Azash> | Apparently a production server has been steadily climbing in load since yesterday, and is going between 7.2 and 7.9 on an octacore |
| 09:24 | <@Azash> | This may be Bad |
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| 10:09 | <@froztbyte> | on its own it could mean nothing |
| 10:09 | <@froztbyte> | refer against historical trend on said server |
| 10:09 | <@froztbyte> | (just in general) |
| 10:09 | | * froztbyte should write some more things on learnyouamonitoring sometime... |
| 10:15 | <@Azash> | froztbyte: I did and it did mean something |
| 10:16 | <@Azash> | Fortunately it was fairly easy to resolve |
| 10:17 | < Julius> | Did someone fall asleep on the keyboard, pressing F5? |
| 10:18 | <@Azash> | Nah, just eight worker processes all hanging at 95-100% |
| 10:18 | <@Azash> | Nothing killall and a passenger restart won't solve~ |
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| 10:51 | <@froztbyte> | Azash: haha |
| 10:51 | <@froztbyte> | yeah, ruby's still kinda terrible on those kind of things |
| 10:51 | <@froztbyte> | a typical approach I've seen for that kind of thing is to apply monit or god |
| 10:51 | <@Azash> | froztbyte: Nah there was an actual issue |
| 10:51 | <@froztbyte> | kinda cool that my 6-year-old ruby ops knowledge is still entirely useful!~ |
| 10:52 | <@froztbyte> | (also: lolrubby) |
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| 11:09 | <@gnolam> | froztbyte: ruby ops: not quite as secret as black ops |
| 11:10 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 11:12 | | Xon [Xon@Nightstar-j72.ku7.252.119.IP] has joined #code |
| 11:45 | | * Tarinaky must construct additional tea. |
| 12:00 | <@Azash> | http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/precise/man1/atsar.1.html |
| 12:00 | <@Azash> | This is quite neat |
| 12:00 | | * Tarinaky headdesks |
| 12:25 | | Orth [orthianz@Nightstar-nq7.p3o.224.119.IP] has joined #code |
| 12:28 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-nq7.p3o.224.119.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 12:37 | | * TheWatcher flails at students |
| 12:38 | <@TheWatcher> | I suppose I should be thankful, I'm actually learning a lot about git trying to work out how they can fix the scewups they've made... |
| 12:40 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 12:44 | < [R]> | Heh |
| 12:45 | | * Lambo hugs CloudFormation |
| 12:47 | < RchrdB> | TheWatcher: it's funny, that levels off after a while. |
| 12:47 | < RchrdB> | as people gain more experience, they tend to stop making the mistakes that experience was necessary for the fixing of, in the first place :| |
| 12:48 | < Lambo> | oh wow |
| 12:48 | < Lambo> | http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/REC-html5-20141028/ |
| 12:48 | < Lambo> | HTML5 is now "released" |
| 12:49 | < RchrdB> | oh cool |
| 12:49 | | * Julius swears at Stripes. |
| 12:49 | < RchrdB> | I had been labouring under the assumption that part of the point was for it to carry on being in draft status forever. ;) |
| 12:50 | < Julius> | For some reason, two projects work, and the third one refuses to. |
| 12:50 | < Lambo> | RchrdB, lol |
| 12:56 | < Julius> | Hmm. Some combination of magic makes the other two work. I'll try to copy one of those, and alter them. |
| 13:11 | < Julius> | OK. It works. |
| 13:17 | | io\crashed is now known as io\low_on_spoons |
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| 13:48 | | * Tamber brain-dumps over a github ticket. |
| 13:49 | <@Tamber> | Cue "Will you please piss off?" from the project maintainer, soon enough... |
| 13:52 | <@io\low_on_spoons> | Tamber: ? |
| 13:53 | <@Tamber> | Trying to figure out why Huginn won't run its twitter agents. |
| 13:53 | < Julius> | Error: Lack of Muninn. |
| 13:53 | <@Tamber> | I've been trying to figure out why it's been apparently ignoring the settings I've fed it; and dug into the code. ...only to find out it outputs the warning about setting your oauth thingies every time it runs, as long as Twitter support is available. |
| 13:54 | <@Tamber> | And the "stream stopped" message is output when the stream is, uh, started; that is, of course, as long as I am grasping this code correctly. |
| 13:55 | <@Tamber> | So it's gone from "Why is it ignoring me? *details that the options are indeed set, etc.", through "...but it sorta works, since I can authenticate against Twitter", to "...shouldn't this message be conditional on the *settings not being filled in*, and is *this* message actually correct?" |
| 13:55 | <@Tamber> | In the space of about 40 minutes. |
| 13:58 | < Lambo> | dammit |
| 13:58 | <@Tamber> | ...and even so, the damn twitter agents still don't run, for no apparent reason. |
| 13:58 | < Lambo> | someone was touching one of our production webservers on Elastic Beanstalk |
| 13:59 | < Lambo> | from work |
| 13:59 | < Lambo> | and broke the box |
| 13:59 | < Lambo> | which caused issues with load balancing -.- |
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| 14:07 | | * Tamber parks a space-ship on Julius, somewhat belatedly. |
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| 14:38 | < Julius> | WTF. |
| 14:38 | <@io\low_on_spoons> | ? |
| 14:39 | | * io\low_on_spoons gives Tamber variable variables |
| 14:39 | | * Tamber fills them with concrete, drops them in the canal. |
| 14:39 | < Julius> | Why is this Java class, that I made before, and put into a jar in order to use in another project, apparently not having all the methods it should? |
| 14:40 | < Julius> | I mean, most of them are correctly there. But some are just absent from the autocomplete. |
| 14:40 | | Alek [omegaboot@Nightstar-c8t.a00.36.73.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 14:40 | <@Tamber> | o.O |
| 14:41 | | * Tarinaky hulks out about 0 != 0 for some reason. |
| 14:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Probably a type error because Ruby sucks. |
| 14:43 | <@io\low_on_spoons> | Ruby is.... ok. Rails? That can go fuck itself |
| 14:52 | < Lambo> | Ruby likes to think it's python |
| 14:52 | < Lambo> | :( |
| 14:52 | <@io\low_on_spoons> | yes |
| 14:52 | <@io\low_on_spoons> | that |
| 14:53 | < Julius> | Hmm. Anyone here use Tortoise SVN? |
| 14:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes |
| 14:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Why? |
| 14:53 | < jeroud> | I spent a year fighting with Ruby by trying to treat it like Python with funny syntax. |
| 14:54 | <@io\low_on_spoons> | i've used tortoise SVN, but not as of laste |
| 14:54 | < Julius> | I have a project directory. I want to put it in the remote repository and make it all versioned and stuff. Which command is for that? |
| 14:55 | < Julius> | I know what "update" and "commit" do, and I think I know what "checkout" does, but none of them, I think, does what I need here. |
| 14:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay. Find an empty directory. Check out the remote repository. |
| 14:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Copy and paste the project directory into the checked out repo |
| 14:55 | < jeroud> | Then I read a book and started treating it like lisp with a funny syntax and was much happier. |
| 14:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Add the files |
| 14:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Commit the files |
| 14:59 | < Julius> | OK. Thanks! |
| 15:24 | <@TheWatcher> | Ugh. Okay, git question this time. Say I have a commit with the id abcd1234 some 8 commits back that needs to be utterly expunged from the repository - not just have files deleted, but the entire commit removed (no changes made to the repository since rely on the files in there). How to do it? I'm guessing it's a git rebase, but I can't figure it out properly |
| 15:51 | <@Azash> | TheWatcher: Move the HEAD to there or something? |
| 15:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher: "removing the commit" and "no changes made to the repository" seem like contradictory goals? |
| 15:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher: that said -- yes, you want rebase. 'git rebase -i abcd1234~1', then in the ensuing editor delete the abcd1234 line, save, and quit. |
| 15:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | This will remove the commit (and all changes it made) from history. |
| 15:55 | <@TheWatcher> | TF: "no changes made...since" |
| 15:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 15:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | So yes. Rebase -i, delete the line for that commit. |
| 15:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | How complicated is your situation? Do you have multiple branches including that commit? Have you already pushed it? |
| 15:57 | <@TheWatcher> | There's a single branch, but it has been pushed, and may have been pulled |
| 15:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: at a guess it's something like "0" != 0, but they both print the same. |
| 15:58 | <@TheWatcher> | (plus, if this even works, I need to persuage gitlab to remove the stuf from the student's history) |
| 15:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Exactly. |
| 15:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher: ok. To push the rewritten branch, you will need to push -f. Anyone who has pulled it will have to do some work to recover, and you should inform them what you have done; git help rebase has a RECOVERING FROM UPSTREAM REBASE section that is relevant. |
| 15:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | The commit will still exist (as an unreferenced commit) and people who know the sha1 will still be able to view it; eventually it will expire. If you have access to the repo there are ways to make it expire faster. |
| 16:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: personally I wouldn't class that as "ruby sucks". Those should be unequal. |
| 16:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher: did a student commit all of the copyright infringement or something? |
| 16:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Nope, all their answers for a course to a group repository |
| 16:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Whoops. |
| 16:01 | <@TheWatcher> | Although frankly at this point, it's probably too late anyway |
| 16:01 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: I know. But I'm short on people to blame. |
| 16:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Anyone who's pulled it can keep it around indefinitely if they want to. |
| 16:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | But removing it with rebase and pushing the new branch will at least prevent it from showing up automatically to new clones/pulls. |
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| 18:38 | | * io\low_on_spoons pokes Syka with iOS 8 |
| 18:38 | <@froztbyte> | don't do that |
| 18:38 | <@froztbyte> | I think she might be allergic |
| 18:38 | <@io\low_on_spoons> | oh, I know |
| 18:38 | | * froztbyte frowns at io |
| 18:38 | <@io\low_on_spoons> | I'm trolling, relax |
| 18:39 | | * froztbyte frowns very determinedly |
| 18:39 | | * io\low_on_spoons shrugs, hats froztbyte |
| 18:39 | <@froztbyte> | \o/ hatting |
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| 18:48 | | * Lambo hates io\low_on_spoons |
| 18:48 | < Lambo> | er |
| 18:48 | < Lambo> | hats! |
| 18:48 | < Lambo> | was a typo -.- |
| 18:49 | < Julius> | And then Lambo was AM. |
| 18:49 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 18:50 | | * Lambo takes a bit off froztbyte |
| 18:50 | <@froztbyte> | OMFG NOW I WON'T FIT IN NORMAL ADDRESSING |
| 18:50 | <@froztbyte> | wait. nevermind. I didn't previously either. |
| 18:51 | < Lambo> | fun thing I ran across, we have a database that was converted from Firebird to SQL Server |
| 18:51 | < Lambo> | apparently Firebird doesn't have the concept of boolean |
| 18:51 | < Lambo> | so one field that is a boolean is stored as a char(1) |
| 18:51 | <@froztbyte> | from what I've heard, firebird barely has the concept of a database |
| 18:52 | < Lambo> | this |
| 18:52 | < Lambo> | so much this |
| 18:52 | < Lambo> | I blame Delphi |
| 18:52 | <@froztbyte> | eh |
| 18:52 | <@froztbyte> | mm. |
| 18:52 | <@froztbyte> | dunno. delphi you could play the ODBC game, and get access |
| 18:52 | < Lambo> | 90% of our legacy code is Delphi |
| 18:52 | <@froztbyte> | which, you know, isn't /much/ better, but hey |
| 18:52 | < Lambo> | with like 6 web services that are delphi cgis |
| 18:52 | <@froztbyte> | at least it pretends |
| 18:53 | <@froztbyte> | Lambo: that sounds pretty terrifying |
| 18:53 | < Lambo> | they're internal cgis at least |
| 18:53 | <@froztbyte> | I've found some people in .za who *still* write code in FreePascal |
| 18:53 | <@froztbyte> | like that's their whole thing |
| 18:53 | < Lambo> | one of the cgis uploads/returns an image (that's stored in a database as a blob) |
| 18:54 | < Lambo> | the best thing, it's not RESTful |
| 18:54 | < Lambo> | so if the image wasn't found in the database, it'd return an image that contains the error |
| 18:54 | <@froztbyte> | uhhhhhhhh |
| 18:54 | < Lambo> | it generated the error image on the fly. |
| 18:54 | <@froztbyte> | yeah I wouldn't really be too surprised about that part |
| 18:55 | <@froztbyte> | you know that "CGI" is internet for "oh dear god, horrors lurk here", right |
| 18:55 | <@froztbyte> | ?* |
| 18:55 | < Lambo> | I do |
| 18:55 | < Lambo> | at least we don't have C++ CGIs or Perl CGIs |
| 18:55 | <@froztbyte> | mandatory http://www.webtoolkit.eu/ |
| 18:56 | | * froztbyte has a couple of perl CGIs |
| 18:56 | <@froztbyte> | although I run those fuckers under fastcgi/spawnfcgi with some insane tweaking applied |
| 18:56 | <@froztbyte> | catalyst is, unfortunately(?), not an option |
| 18:56 | < Lambo> | our CGIs are running under IIS ;p |
| 18:56 | < Lambo> | since they're windows exes |
| 18:56 | <@froztbyte> | AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH |
| 18:56 | <@froztbyte> | oh my |
| 18:57 | <@froztbyte> | Lambo: I can't adequately explain how much that entertains me |
| 18:57 | < Lambo> | our company had a Delphi fetish for a while. |
| 18:57 | < Lambo> | long before I joined |
| 18:57 | <@froztbyte> | Lambo: perhaps this will suffice: I know someone who has some clipper running on a windows machine |
| 18:57 | < Lambo> | :o |
| 18:58 | <@froztbyte> | *still* |
| 18:58 | <@froztbyte> | *today* |
| 18:58 | <@froztbyte> | as in *it's actually doing things* |
| 18:58 | < Lambo> | our legacy products are an anachronism, we migrated from colocated hosting to AWS |
| 18:58 | < Lambo> | and still have the crap running |
| 18:58 | <@froztbyte> | that's how terrible systems work |
| 18:59 | < Lambo> | I've been working on wrapping one of our older services in an async wrapper |
| 18:59 | <@froztbyte> | don't even bother |
| 18:59 | < Lambo> | message queues and signalr etc |
| 18:59 | <@froztbyte> | seriously |
| 18:59 | <@froztbyte> | it's just pain |
| 18:59 | <@froztbyte> | all the way down |
| 18:59 | < Lambo> | since when that service fucks up, it takes down one of our products |
| 19:00 | < Lambo> | ah the wrapper is in C# and a separate service, the bad service is written in Delphi... using a custom protocol! |
| 19:00 | < Lambo> | because HTTP makes too little sense. |
| 19:02 | < Lambo> | like, it's literally a service that listens on a port, can use telnet to talk to it, but it's not HTTP |
| 19:02 | <@froztbyte> | could be worse |
| 19:03 | <@froztbyte> | I've seen things that do rs-485->ethernet-(custom protocol shit here, not always IP)->daemon->character device |
| 19:03 | <@froztbyte> | why? |
| 19:03 | <@froztbyte> | because people are terrible |
| 19:03 | < Lambo> | it's multi-threaded with its own queue and was heavily reliant on a database that, if the DB was down, would crash. Repeatedly |
| 19:20 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
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| 23:17 | | * Vornicus gets around to examining Reiv's problem from last night and writing through it |
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| 23:38 | <@Reiv> | Vornicus, Alek: You weren't around last night to observe my mutterings about how it took me fifteen minutes to explain mechanics, 90% of which are explained in here in, uh, 10~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuhwSma960Y |
| --- Log closed Thu Oct 30 00:00:14 2014 |