| --- Log opened Fri Oct 17 00:00:17 2014 |
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| 10:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Argh |
| 10:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Why is RUby telling me Complex has no method new. |
| 10:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Literally WTF |
| 10:57 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, the reason is complex... |
| 10:57 | < Julius> | How do you metaphorically WTF? |
| 10:57 | | * TheWatcher flrrd |
| 10:57 | <@Tarinaky> | The API docs says Complex has methods. |
| 10:57 | < Julius> | Does it have a new method? |
| 10:57 | <@Tarinaky> | According to the API doc |
| 10:57 | <@Tarinaky> | And on reflection it's not new I want, but coerce. |
| 10:57 | <@Tarinaky> | And calling coerce doesn't work either |
| 10:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Apparently it's because I'm looking at the wrong version. |
| 10:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Well that makes it better... |
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| 13:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Can someone explain to me what the cdecl and stdcall calling conventions are? |
| 13:42 | < RchrdB> | IIRC, cdecl is all args on stack and stdcall is the local ABI which these days is as much as possible in the registers |
| 13:43 | < RchrdB> | Wikipedia has a fuller description but the articles are a little convoluted |
| 13:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Apparently with Python ctypes you have to specify which is used? |
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| 14:57 | < RchrdB> | Tarinaky: yes, but if it were anything other than the default then the C library .h include file would have to specify it too |
| 14:58 | < RchrdB> | if there isn't a calling convention explicitly declared on a function in the .h file then you probably don't need to specify the calling convention in Python's ctypes either, because they'll both default to the same convention. |
| 14:58 | < RchrdB> | Sorry for the slow reply, I was at lunch. |
| 15:57 | < VirusJTG> | Do any of you have advice for teaching a first time student of programing? It has come time for my FPY to gain the perspective that learning programing teaches. |
| 15:57 | < VirusJTG> | PFY rather |
| 15:59 | <@Tarinaky> | VirusJTG: Pick your language based on the teacher's knowledge of it and ability to assist debugging hard problems /not/ for reasons of trendiness or ease of learning. |
| 15:59 | <@Tarinaky> | The latter properties are nice to have... but if you're only a couple of pages ahead of the student then you're not a very good teacher. |
| 16:01 | <@Tarinaky> | An added plus if you have languages/toolsets/etc... which're immediately useful to the student's problem domain. |
| 16:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Unless you're worried about them exceeding the master and leaving for a better job :P |
| 16:02 | | thalass is now known as THalass|sleep |
| 16:04 | < VirusJTG> | The only languages I know are C++, C#, and VB.NET |
| 16:04 | < RchrdB> | How well do you know C#? Of those, that's the most fun sounding one. |
| 16:04 | < VirusJTG> | I think, of those C++ is the most universally useful |
| 16:05 | <@Tarinaky> | Is C++ the one you know best? |
| 16:05 | < VirusJTG> | I know it well enough to make AD, and MS SQL server calls |
| 16:05 | < VirusJTG> | but I know C++ the best as that what I trained in when I was in collage |
| 16:05 | < VirusJTG> | I can do in line SQL in C++, regardless of DB used |
| 16:06 | <@Tarinaky> | The other alternative is to throw a "Teach yourself programming in 72.5 minutes for the profoundly deaf" |
| 16:06 | <@Tarinaky> | +book at them |
| 16:06 | < VirusJTG> | I also remember deep stack, heap, and garbage collation |
| 16:07 | < VirusJTG> | Sounds like giving her a C++ for dumbies book, an Ubuntu install, and walking her through the book would be my best bet? |
| 16:07 | <@Tarinaky> | There're a lot of very good autodidact programming books out there now... the 'Learn Python/Ruby/Morris-Dancing the Hard Way' series get good press. |
| 16:07 | <@Tarinaky> | No idea if they're good. |
| 16:09 | <@Tarinaky> | VirusJTG: That sounds like an entirely workable strategy. |
| 16:10 | <@Tarinaky> | VirusJTG: I'd be careful about 'walking through' though. You want them to attempt to solve any problems first. |
| 16:10 | <@Tarinaky> | There's a balance. |
| 16:10 | < VirusJTG> | Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate it. Even if she doesn't want to become a programmer, I'm a firm believer that all sysadmins need to know at least one programing language. |
| 16:10 | < RchrdB> | and it should be Perl |
| 16:10 | < VirusJTG> | Tarinaky I understand and agree with your point |
| 16:11 | < RchrdB> | wait, no, that was 10 years ago |
| 16:11 | < RchrdB> | and it should be Ruby ;) |
| 16:12 | | * Tarinaky is only mildly disappointed no-one broke down giggling at the "Teach yourself programming in 72.5 minutes for the profoundly deaf" joke. |
| 16:12 | < VirusJTG> | oh I giggled |
| 16:13 | < VirusJTG> | I just didn't emote as such |
| 16:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Learn Morris Dancing the Hard Way? |
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| 16:23 | < RchrdB> | There isn't an easy way to learn Morris Dancing. |
| 16:23 | <@Tamber> | There's the hard way, and the harder way. |
| 16:23 | | mode/#code [+oooooooooooo RchrdB Attilla grindhold Checkmate simon_ VirusJTG Xon Syka Turaiel EvilDarkLord Julius [R]] by Tamber |
| 16:24 | <@Tarinaky> | You throw basket balls at them while shouting "MORRIS!" until they're able to expertly defect the projectile with their stick and jig away. |
| 16:25 | <@RchrdB> | That sounds more fun than actual Morris Dancing. |
| 16:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Basically, it's reenactment for people who're scared of getting hurt. |
| 16:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Show up sunday, look like a pratt with your friends. |
| 16:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Retire to a cozy pub with a good selection of real ales. |
| 16:26 | | * Tamber ties bells to Tarinaky. |
| 16:53 | <@iospace> | so, I have figured out how to make less open up vim when I hit v in it o: |
| 17:01 | | Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: @Attilla, @Syka, @Tarinaky |
| 17:01 | <@RchrdB> | iospace: ooh, please share? |
| 17:02 | <@iospace> | RchrdB: so, in less, if you hit v, it'll open whatever EDITOR is defined to |
| 17:02 | <@iospace> | if not, just vi |
| 17:02 | | Netsplit over, joins: Attilla |
| 17:02 | <@iospace> | so I just set EDITOR to be vim, so :3 |
| 17:02 | <@RchrdB> | oh OH |
| 17:02 | <@iospace> | i completely stumbled on it by chance XD |
| 17:03 | <@RchrdB> | I just tried it to see what it did by default because you mentioned it. |
| 17:03 | <@RchrdB> | Emacs came up. |
| 17:03 | <@RchrdB> | Guess what I have in $EDITOR? :) |
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| 17:03 | <@iospace> | emacs |
| 17:03 | <@iospace> | :P |
| 17:03 | <@iospace> | but yes, that was a fun discovery ^^ |
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| 21:01 | <@Tarinaky> | Regexp question: how do I match nothing? |
| 21:01 | <@Tarinaky> | i.e. I want a regexp like: |
| 21:02 | <@Tarinaky> | /(\d*)d(\d+)(h|l|f|or nothing?)/ |
| 21:02 | <@Tarinaky> | To match lines like 1d6, 1d8, d8, d6f |
| 21:03 | <@Tarinaky> | With three parameters in the regexp, one of which is always non-null and the other two can be null. |
| 21:03 | <@Tamber> | /(\d*)d(\d+)[hlf\s]/ ? |
| 21:03 | <@Tamber> | Depending on what 'nothing' is meant to be. |
| 21:04 | <@Tamber> | *wedges some parens around the square brackets* |
| 21:04 | <@Tarinaky> | Nothing being zero characters |
| 21:04 | <@Tamber> | *nods* |
| 21:04 | <@Tarinaky> | Isn't \s whitespace? |
| 21:04 | <@Tarinaky> | i.e. a character? |
| 21:04 | <@Tamber> | /(\d*)d(\d+)([hlf])$/ |
| 21:05 | <&jerith> | Tarinaky: (h|l|f|) should do it. |
| 21:05 | <@Tamber> | Yup. |
| 21:05 | <@Tarinaky> | If anyone is familiar with Painbot/DMBot/Karmabot's dice syntax... Can you cast a quick eye over this to see if you can spot anything wrong with it? |
| 21:06 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not sure if this regexp engine supports anchors. |
| 21:06 | <@Tarinaky> | '(\d*)d(\d+)(h|l|f|)(,\d+|)' |
| 21:08 | | * Tarinaky is currently trying to fuck^Wfork an existing IRC bot as a backup DMBot because the original has bitrot and the creators of Painbot/Karmabot are not on my christmas card list atm. |
| 21:10 | <&jerith> | What codebase? |
| 21:10 | <@Tarinaky> | Willie was the first one I found. |
| 21:10 | <@Tarinaky> | I figured if I just threw away all of its existing modules, and wrote a new dice.py module, I'd be done. |
| 21:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay, apparently (\d*)d(\d+)(h|l|f)?(,\d+)? has the same effect. |
| 21:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I was worried that the parameter numbers would shift around. |
| 21:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Argh. Crap. |
| 21:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Found something I forgot. |
| 21:29 | <@Tarinaky> | I can't think how I should sensibly handle the case d20+6-2 |
| 21:29 | <@Tarinaky> | And d20-2+6 |
| 21:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Hmm... |
| 21:29 | <&jerith> | ... are you parsing dice specs with regexes? |
| 21:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes. |
| 21:29 | <&jerith> | Is this Python? |
| 21:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes. |
| 21:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Is the answer "Don't"? |
| 21:30 | <&jerith> | https://pypi.python.org/pypi/Parsley |
| 21:30 | <&jerith> | (It's not the most high-performance parser out there, but it's the nicest I've used.) |
| 21:30 | <@Tarinaky> | Does this return an re object? |
| 21:30 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm passing the regexs to another library which is doing all the heavy lifting. |
| 21:31 | <&jerith> | What's the other library? |
| 21:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Willie |
| 21:31 | <&jerith> | And what heavy lifting is it doing? |
| 21:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Being an IRC bot. |
| 21:32 | <@Tarinaky> | Willie's standard dice module has a different dice syntax. |
| 21:32 | <&jerith> | Oh, it has a dice module. |
| 21:32 | <@Tarinaky> | But the dice module does the wrong thing. |
| 21:33 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm trying to replace the dice module with one that matches another bot's dice spec. |
| 21:33 | <&jerith> | Sounds like you want your own dice module. |
| 21:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Correct. |
| 21:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Which is what I need the Regex for :P |
| 21:34 | <&jerith> | So have Willie give you the raw strings and do the parsing and dice stuff yourself? |
| 21:34 | <&jerith> | Parsley makes it easy to have modular bits of syntax that fit together nicely without stepping on each other. |
| 21:35 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not sure there's a way to get willie to give me the raw strings without, basically, blocking /every/ module. |
| 21:36 | <@Tarinaky> | And thus reimplementing more bits of functionality. |
| 21:36 | <@Tarinaky> | Which I'm trying to avoid. |
| 21:36 | <&jerith> | Use a better bot?~ |
| 21:36 | <&jerith> | What other things of Willie's are you using? |
| 21:36 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, basically, /all/ I want to do is replace dice.py |
| 21:36 | <@Tarinaky> | And then have it work |
| 21:36 | <&jerith> | Also, you can probably give Willie a regex that gets you the raw string. |
| 21:37 | <@Tarinaky> | Yeah, but from what I gather it'll stop giving it to triggers once one matches. |
| 21:37 | <@Tarinaky> | Hmm... |
| 21:38 | <@Tarinaky> | I cna probably stick a big ([\+\-\*\/\d\s]*) block in the middle. |
| 21:38 | <&jerith> | By "raw string" I mean "stuff after `.roll`" or whatever. |
| 21:38 | <@Tarinaky> | And pass /that/ block into a parser. |
| 21:38 | <@Tarinaky> | Trouble is the other bot's dice spec wants the command to look like !d6 |
| 21:38 | <@Tarinaky> | Without a 'command' |
| 21:40 | <&jerith> | Give it a regex of r'\s*!(.*)$' or something? |
| 21:40 | <@Tarinaky> | But then !help won't work :P |
| 21:40 | <&jerith> | Give it a lower priority than the more specific commands? |
| 21:40 | <&jerith> | Is `!3d6` a legitimate dice roll? |
| 21:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes |
| 21:44 | <&jerith> | And `!2+3d6`? |
| 21:44 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes. |
| 21:44 | <@Tarinaky> | You're right. |
| 21:44 | <@Tarinaky> | I should use low priority and then pass it to a real parser :/ |
| 21:46 | <&jerith> | I have saved you a lot of pain. You're welcome. :-) |
| 21:47 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not convinced this is going to work :/ |
| 21:48 | <&jerith> | It's going to work better than a pile of horrible regexen. |
| 21:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Only if it works at all >.< |
| 21:48 | <&jerith> | If your code's in a public repo, I might have some time this weekend to poke at it with a pointy stick. |
| 21:48 | <&jerith> | It's been a while since I wrote an IRC bot.~ |
| 22:00 | <@Tarinaky> | jerith: Yeah. Both my fork and the original. |
| 22:00 | <@Tarinaky> | jerith: https://github.com/Tarinaky/LanceBot |
| 22:00 | <@Tarinaky> | 21:58 <+Tarinaky> !d6 |
| 22:00 | <@Tarinaky> | 21:58 < LanceBot> Tarinaky: Caught a dice expression, possibly? |
| 22:00 | <@Tarinaky> | 21:58 <+Tarinaky> !help |
| 22:00 | <@Tarinaky> | 21:58 < LanceBot> Tarinaky: Say !help <command> (for example .help c) to get help for a command, or .commands for a list of commands. |
| 22:01 | <@Tarinaky> | 21:58 < LanceBot> Tarinaky: Caught a dice expression, possibly? |
| 22:01 | | * Tarinaky facepalms. |
| 22:01 | <@Tarinaky> | This is with a rule catching the regex /^!(.*)$/ |
| 22:07 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-g2q2tu.customer.tdc.net] has joined #code |
| 22:07 | <@Julius> | In PainBot, I'm detecting the shorthand by the first character being a) a number, b) the letter d, or c) an opening paren. |
| 22:07 | <@Julius> | This is after it tried to match the input string to every other possible command first. |
| 22:08 | <@Tarinaky> | Trouble is... that's going to fail if you have any commands beginning with 'd' |
| 22:08 | <@Julius> | No. |
| 22:08 | <@Tarinaky> | !date begins with the letter d |
| 22:08 | <@Tarinaky> | It /is/ a solution... |
| 22:08 | <@Julius> | It tries every other possible interpretation first. |
| 22:08 | <@Julius> | Then, if no command is found to be matching, it tries parsing as a shorthand. |
| 22:08 | <@Tarinaky> | I can't see an easy way to get willie to do that. |
| 22:09 | <@Tarinaky> | It seems to do the other commands /and/ this regex |
| 22:09 | <@Tarinaky> | Hence the output log above |
| 22:10 | <@Julius> | Ugh. |
| 22:10 | <@Julius> | You appear to be modifying someone else's bot. |
| 22:10 | <@Julius> | Without the writer on-hand to explain it to you, even. |
| 22:11 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm practicing the skills I've learned at work. |
| 22:11 | <@Tarinaky> | I can always send an email to the original author. |
| 22:11 | <@Tarinaky> | But I should try to RTFS first :/ |
| 22:11 | <@Julius> | Can you locate the place where it decides what a given input is supposed to be? |
| 22:12 | <@Tarinaky> | Working on it. |
| 22:13 | <@Tarinaky> | bot.py |
| 22:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Not sure which function yet. |
| 22:16 | | * Julius looks at that file. |
| 22:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I think dispatch |
| 22:17 | <@Tarinaky> | But that only mentions commands, not rules. |
| 22:17 | <@Julius> | I do not know where it stores command definitions. |
| 22:18 | <@Julius> | This bot looks like it reinvents a whole lot of wheels. |
| 22:18 | <@Tarinaky> | In an attribute of the Willie object called commands |
| 22:19 | <@Julius> | Add a low priority command that tries to roll itself? |
| 22:20 | <@Tarinaky> | Then it won't trigger on !3d6 |
| 22:20 | <@Tarinaky> | It'll only trigger on !<command name> 3d6 |
| 22:20 | <@Julius> | Why not? |
| 22:20 | <@Julius> | Can't you put a regexp as the command name? |
| 22:20 | <@Julius> | If not, then you need to modify the dispatcher so it has a if-all-else-fails case. |
| 22:21 | <@Tarinaky> | That's what I'm thinking the cleanest solution might be. |
| 22:22 | | Checkmate is now known as Serah |
| 22:23 | | Serah is now known as Checkmate |
| 22:24 | | * Julius will be doing a migration of company email stuff to Office 365 in 30 minutes. |
| 22:24 | <@Julius> | Truly, may God have mercy on my soul should there be any problems here. |
| 22:24 | <@Julius> | Adobe won't save me now. |
| 22:24 | | RchrdB [RichardB@Nightstar-v5j366.understood.systems] has quit [[NS] Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1] |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | Adobe forsook you long ago |
| 22:25 | | RchrdB [RichardB@Nightstar-v5j366.understood.systems] has joined #code |
| 22:25 | | * Tarinaky tries adding a tactical 'return' statement. |
| 22:25 | <@Julius> | The decision to buy into Office 365 was made during my vacation. I think it was a poor choice. But now it's done, and it can potentially resolve a bunch of niggling issues my coworkers have been experiencing, even if it costs more. |
| 22:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Umm what |
| 22:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay, I've apparently forgotten how to write Python |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | What what |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | In the cloud |
| 22:26 | <@Tarinaky> | print "Foo?" |
| 22:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Syntax error? |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | Are you using Python 3? |
| 22:27 | <@Tarinaky> | No |
| 22:27 | <@Tarinaky> | 2.7.3 |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | Have you imported print_function from __future__? |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | 2.7.5 accepts the command you gave |
| 22:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes |
| 22:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Derp |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | I should refactor Ophis so that it runs in both 2.7 and 3.x |
| 22:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | print_function supremacy |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | Ophis also needs to shift over to bytebuffers, though. |
| 22:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Speaking to the people in willie's IRC channel it sounds like having an awful regex of doom might be the way forwards :/ |
| 23:06 | | * Julius swears. |
| 23:06 | <@Julius> | Problem 1: Pale Moon causes an authentication problem when used to log into Office 365. Solution is to use Chrome instead. |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | What is Pale Moon? |
| 23:08 | <@Julius> | A Firefox clone. |
| 23:08 | <@Julius> | Problem 2: Chrome doesn't display the website correctly. Checkboxes are hard to determine if they are checked or not. |
| 23:13 | <@Julius> | Argh. |
| 23:14 | <@Julius> | More trouble, I think the page isn't displaying correctly. There's no obvious "NEXT" functionality in here. |
| 23:16 | | * Julius boots up Opera. |
| 23:16 | <@Julius> | I'm looking for some combination of magic that lets me render the site correctly AND let me log in. |
| 23:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's going to be IE6, isn't it. |
| 23:17 | | * TheWatcher shudders |
| 23:18 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: For Cloud!Office? Probably not |
| 23:18 | <&McMartin> | It'll be at least IE8~ |
| 23:19 | <@Julius> | Which is probably completely incompatible with my ancient OS. Fortunately I have a second box that's newer. |
| 23:20 | <@Julius> | Fuck. There's no obvious next step in Opera either. Is suspect this is working as designed. |
| 23:25 | <@Julius> | This is dogshit. All of the links lead to YOU ARE NOT AUTHORIZED. |
| 23:25 | <@Julius> | Why the hell am I not authorized to buy a license?! |
| 23:25 | <@Julius> | Or anything else? |
| 23:29 | <@Julius> | The help file I am constantly being redirected to is completely unhelpful. |
| 23:29 | <@Julius> | It is intended for a markedly different setup. |
| 23:29 | <@Julius> | I cannot follow its instructions, because the interface it references doesn't exist. |
| 23:31 | <@Julius> | It seems as though part of the thing recognizes me as an administrator, while another does not. |
| 23:35 | <@[R]> | Julius: you're running 98? |
| 23:35 | <@[R]> | (IIRC XP supports up to IE 8) |
| 23:36 | <@Julius> | Found the problem. The coworker who did this in my stead while I was on vacation failed to assign me proper privileges. |
| 23:36 | <&McMartin> | -_- |
| 23:36 | <&McMartin> | At least that is super-consistent with the mysterious errors |
| 23:37 | <@Julius> | I'm a service admin, not a global admin like I need to be to do this. |
| 23:38 | <@Julius> | MS is also to blame, I feel. An unformatted 403 is not very helpful. |
| 23:38 | <@Julius> | I would have like a "looks like you're a X, but you need to be Y to do this". |
| 23:38 | <@[R]> | MS being shitty at UI is unsurprising |
| 23:39 | <@Julius> | Doubly so since I was getting a 403 error that was not actually related to the lack of priveleges. |
| --- Log closed Sat Oct 18 00:00:33 2014 |